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YOUR RESEARCHGT3 Death Rattle ...
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Suggestion
Like you said, 584 ignitions isn't much (check over on rennlist and see some of the overrev numbers of cars on there
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Suggestion · Original poster
if you call a full rebuilding using new pistons and barrels a refresh then yes!
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Some who own them may have experienced this and still be in therapy ...
I'd not had the "pleasure" so when it happened I fair shat my lederhosen.
On the start up after a couple of weeks with no fire in the hole, when I went to start the '99 GT3, the first 3-4 seconds of life sounded like someone had chucked some large bolts into the engine case.
Speaking to the guy that has built these engines for me in the past (race motors admittedly so sounding shite on start up is all part of the "charm") he chuckled and said that "they all do that".
WELL!! I. DONT. LIKE. IT.
Being a man of great mechanical sympathy (just don't ask the synchro's in my IROC 915 ...) I said something along the lines of "fix the farkin thing, I can't stand it".
And he did. The answer is simple. A relay on the fuel pump that means it doesn't deliver boom juice for 5 seconds, oil pressure builds and hey presto, no death rattle.
Just thought I'd share in case therapy is costing too much.
It was dire. I've yet to get the nip and tuck done on the RS or the '04 so if you're game, you're welcome to bear witness. Bring scotch.
RIP.
Big fan of the Spitfire. A guy I knew had one. Raced it a bit too. Cool ride.
I feared the worst. I thought you were going to report a repeat of my GT2 Herr Mezger death rattle. Second gear, 5000 rpm, BANG rattle rattle. No oil pressure. Climb under and find oil pissing out, torch highlights a newly formed metal flap in the crankcase. Hmmmm. Bank account death rattle. 2 snapped rods......
ouch
Damn..
After rebuilding mine, spending more than the cars worth on the engine.. Priming the oil pump was the single most scariest thing in the world. The engine spinning with out oil. Thankfully pressure built up.
Thankfully no. But I am getting my '04 CS back next week after its full rebuild. As reported elsewhere in the forum, the previous owner took it out for one last spin the day before I picked it up and managed to give the thing a big enough rev that it broke chain tensioners and some other stuff and deposited all sorts of shit throughout the motor.
When we pulled it apart, also found some weird wear marks on some of the bearings. A sign of very patchy servicing I think. To be fair, the previous owner wouldn't have known what he did.
I just noticed some odd sounds during the first few days of driving but testament to the strength of the things, the engine still pulled well. And then we split the filter and .... new Pistons, barrels and rebuilding the heads .... Crank and rods were fine.
Snapped rods? Never heard that before. Well, not 2 anyway. Is/was your engine stock?
Wow that is surprising to hear given how robust these motors are supposed to be. What do you think he did to it...money shift? Any symptoms other than metal deposits in the oil? Now you've got me worried and i'm going to be listening like a mouse when I drive mine next! It is apparent that GT3s are very strong cars, yet they have a low tolerance for unskilled drivers with poor operating skills!
I'm getting the ECU read today. The car is on the dyno being run in as well as clearing all those pesky fault codes that come up after a heart operation. Let just say that my guess is an unintentional talent deficit resulting in a big rev on the downchange. Don't sweat it. Treat it hard but understand that 10000 rpm was not in the design brief when Herr Mezger was doing his thang.
Nope, other than the wierd shit wear caused by the owner not giving it regular love, it was all in the only shift.
BTW, I took my 99 out for a run today. Repeatedly introduced it to 7600. My son was with me and he quite insightfully observed "Dad, this car actually sounds a lot like your air cooled cars". And he's right.
As for the howl as it approaches the limiter - oh dear. It might be tame in the power stakes compared to what came later but the way the thing makes its power, you feel the Vario working and then even better, tip it into a turn and power out whilst Mr Bump Steer says "hi!" - BIG fun.
So, ignore the failure in my car - it's an aberration caused by misuse and unsympathetic abuse.
I'll post what the ECU reveals as soon as I have it.
PS - whilst spanking the 99 today, I was reflecting on the differences between it and the RSCS I had. That car was a blast, raw, involving - best of breed. And yet, on any measure, subjective and objective, the 99 GT3 is the superior car by a mile. As is every GT P car since.
And the best bit, you can get that superior experience for around $500,000 less than the cost of an RS. Yes, 150-200 K is still serious wedge but if you can go there, you're not missing a thing in not having the RS experience.
Peter Fitzgerald certainly knew of it, diagnosed mine over the phone, confirmed once engine was apart. Has seen it plenty of times. Mine has EVOMS turbos and tune so a bit more boost (and about +120hp). I understand factory rods are no different from GT3 and are the weak Link in turbo engines. The replacement engine (stock 996TT) that we rebuilt had banana rods ready to fail:
cue 99 vs 04 comparison when you get the 04 going. Very interested to hear what that ECU says. GT3 is an engaging/fun/at-times-scary animal when going slightly fast on a twisty road. Your son is on the money....having spent a fair bit of time behind the wheel of my father's 930, both engines have very similar sounding undertones.
To be honest, I don't know. Could well be but it sounds like the whole orchestra is warming up after a big night out. I'll ask the question though.
Might just do that. If it's good enough for Chris Harris, it's good enough for me!
I heard the rattle Skidmarks is talking about this morning when I started my car for the first time in 3 weeks. Sounds like a bunch of ball bearings being vigorously shaken around in a tin can for 1 second after start up. I like the sound
I just got used to it, I've not noticed much difference between the 04 & 07 cars either.
It mainly seems to be worse from lack of use, if I start the car at least weekly, it's fine... Come back to it after a month or two, different story, it should almost go with a Bunnings announcement like "Clean up in aisle 18, nuts & bolts"
I given the racket it makes and the fact that my engine guy doesn't like it, not sure it's harmless. Anything bashing that hard can't be good.
The newer ones don't make the racket. My 2011 Cup is remarkably subdued in that dept.
Never a truer word spoken
Well, well, well.
Have just received the data on the over rev.
04's have 2 rev ranges. 1 and 2.
Total engine operating hours logged as 735.6
The previous owner loved the limiter - range 1 ignitions report when it's hit the limiter (8200) Number of ignitions in range 1 - 65535. The last one that went there was at 731.9 hours.
Drum roll ....... Range 2 ignition - which is over 8800 (remember, the rev limit is 8200) was 586 ignitions. Not long. But long enough. And speaking to the guys who should know, to chase that sort of internal carnage, it would have had to be well into the high 9's.
The kicker? The big one happened at 707.3 hours.
So, it was driven with all the internal damage for oh, let me do the maths .... 28 HOURS!! 2 hours of which was me before I couldn't stand it any more and had the thing looked at
Little wonder at the other damage given all that crap was floating around.
So, now I know.
Good summary Skidmarks. Like you said, 584 ignitions isn't much (check over on rennlist and see some of the overrev numbers of cars on there
) but I'd imagine it was well past redline if it chewed bits up. Maybe not a money shift but definitely an overzealous downshift at the track? Either way, good that you caught it before old mezger threw a leg out of bed.
EDIT: If you are curious as to exactly how long it spent past 8800 rpm...
586/3 = 195 engine revolutions
195/8800 = 0.022 minutes x 60 = 1.3 seconds spent above 8800 RPM. Not long at all.
At least you don't have to worry about level 1 over revs any more.
Pretty sure that ECU is 16bit and 65535 is the limit to a 16bit value so you won't see that number change in future.
I agree no one likes the noise but I still suggest it's harmless in the scheme of things. The noise would be from the internal plunger of the lifter bottoming out on the internal stop just like it is designed to do until the cavity fills with sufficient oil that it can be pressurised by the closing internal check valve.
Given the lifter is preloaded against the cam lobe anyway so it's not clanging against the lobe, full valve lift is not being achieved so the spring pressure is less, engine speed is low at start up and it only occurs for proportionally negligible period of total engine run time I still suggest its something we need not worry about.
Not trying to be pedantic Skids, just factual as I think there are more legitimate fears to harbour!
cheers
Thanks Peter. Yes, agreed .. There are bigger issues. Like, can I hold it flat through the Hay Shed? The answer is YES!!
Too right! If you're not on the limiter, you're not trying!!!!
Is that English? I did humanities at Uni so I have no idea what any of that means but it sounds like I'll live on in blissful ignorance.
Hey Skids, good to see how it all panned out, assuming the PO picked up the bill. Might have worked in your favour if so, as the big overrev happened before the 'fateful' last drive which appears wasn't the root cause of the failure. With the bearing wear and possible lack of servicing it's a much better position to be in now with a brand spankers engine.
Interesting your comments on the start up rattle as I've never experienced such a thing and my car has been laid up for many (too) long periods over the time I've owned it. No doubt I'll now 'hear' it, even if it's not there so thanks for that!
.
GT3 are the shizzle.
I have the 04 GT3CS back!!!
Off to the dyno this afternoon for the final trimming of the fueling.
I picked it up last Friday and have laid another 500k's on it since.
First run on the dyno was disappointing - hit a wall at 4000. Then we worked out that the mufflers had failed. Off to Melbourne Performance for a new "Starr" muffler (with cats of course - they're really small though so you cant see them ...) and hey presto.
Even pre adjustment the thing just howls. A big step up from the '99 and I'll do a little back to back at the track day I think ...
if you call a full rebuilding using new pistons and barrels a refresh then yes!
Now for the numbers.
301 kw at flywheel. That's 408 bhp in the old money.
Happy days.
And that's with a bit more fuel in it than is needed so if we trimmed it a bit, there'd be more but hey, 997 Cup power I'll take. And grunty at that.
Also, it was a bit of sublime to ridiculous... dropped the GT3 back to the shop for a little bit of final work and left in the 356!!
Have to say though, the 356 rides better. Brakes? Not so good. Grunt? Same. Smiles? Loads.
Good to hear. Don't be afraid to throw a little trackday comparison between street car and cup car in there while you're at it, some of us might be interested!
The Cup Car is on the market! For the first time ever, some race cars have gone up in value. The 2011 is in demand now and we're a chance to get more than we paid. But, if we still have it, I'll bring it to Sandown.
The other Cup Car that will make money in the future is the 996. Raw and hand built in the race department.
They are finally following the European market where they've been up for a while. Someone I spoke to locally suggested that 2011s might go down a little in 12 months when 991s become eligible for GT3 Cup Challenge. I guess everyone has an opinion on this stuff!
Do you still have your 996 Cup?
No, sold the 996 a long while ago for a 2006 Cup which I raced until 2010. The '11 is actually faster than the 991 on some tracks and not a whole lot slower on the rest. The '11's are less fragile in the drivetrain and also cheaper to fix if you get a knock (small or big).
That said, race cars generally head south in price as soon as the new spec becomes The Thing.
2011 Cup now sold.
And for something completely left field ... sold it for exactly the amount I purchased it for ... mark it in your calendar
AS for the GT3 CS, finallly isolated that effing noise in the back. Even since I bought it it had what sounded like a disc contacting a rotor "squeal". Only happened above 50 kph and only when driven - would not do it on the hoist.
Had the young bloke at the workshop lying on the floor of the car (passenger seat removed) and isolated it to outer rear. No groaning sound so can't be a bearing ...
Out comes the drive shaft and we fit another. Noise still there.
Flip the driveshafts around. Still there.
Check in the handbrake mechanism - found some crap, cleaned and reassembled. Still there.
OK, lets pull the upright apart. Checked the bearing. Hmmmm. Makes a funnny noise ... but looks OK. Offer up a new bearing.
Noise gone. Farkin cars!!
I picked up the Lava Lamp the other day. What a weapon. And so practical. Loaded it up with 3 bags, Lego, shoes, 2 backpacks, briefcase, 3 bags of groceries and headed off for the hols. OK, it was packed to the gunwales and i had to shove a few loose items through the roll cage to get them in the back but hey, small price to pay etc etc
First impressions ... feels a lot like the MK 1 GT3. Raw, tight, noisy, gearbox roll lover, loves a rev. Makes me appreciate how special the Mk1 really is.
^ congrats on all fronts Skiddy. Interested to know what your noise sounds like as there is something similar going on in my GT3. Very very feint, been there forever, not sure it's above 50, think it's from the rear, but they way you described yours resonates with me.
sounds like you'll have a very merry christmas.
It sounded like a metallic clinking and was speed dependant and went away under 50 kmph. Was loud enough to notice even after the new muffler. The closest I can describe is the rubbing of a rotor on a dust/stone shield. Just a light touch. Worth having the bearings looked at or just replaced. I did both sides.
