RMS........What to do about it

Hi folks I am a newbie here but I have been campaining on other boards for some time now. Thought it about time I would drop this on you guys too. .....it's yet another one of those RMS threads. But this one has a different angle. You've all read and heard way too much about this dreaded RMS nightmare and many of you will have already had to endure it. Some of you have endured it several times over. RMS = Rear Main Seal. Porsche AG call it the "Crankshaft Seal - Flywheel side". The RMS can fail in your 996 C2/C4 or 986 at any time. Your car could be barely weeks old or it could be an early 1997 model. It doesn't matter. There are even reports of delivery mileage cars dripping oil in the dealer showroom! The dreaded RMS failure now talked about on a daily basis on this board or another, can exhibit itself for no apparent reason. You may track your car or it may be a garage queen; it could be your daily driver or just a weekender. It doesn't matter. Why? Because none of these factors take into account a manufacturing fault that's persisted since the first Boxter rolled out of Stuttgart. And that's exactly what this RMS problem is: A Manufacturing flaw. But Porsche AG won't admit to this fact. Furthermore, if your car is out of warranty then they will often leave you with the legacy of their incompetence by asking "YOU" to pay the hefty bill to replace the engine seal.......and it typically takes 8 to 10 hours to perform the repair! If that sounds frightening, consider that it might happen again. And again. And again. And again. Yes it's happened to my 996 5 times and I am still counting! But that's not all, how do you feel about having to purchase a new engine for one of these babies? Ouch! I hear you say. The worst part about this whole fiasco is that we, the customers just take it like a piece of cake. We bitch and moan but still go ahead and pay upwards of £80,000 for one of these tainted automobiles. Gorgeous, fast, stunning, jaw dropping and as exciting as they are, it is our pockets that take the hit in the end. Isn't it about time we all united to get something done about it? I am asking all fellow 996 and 986 owners to support a cause to get Porsche AG to acknowledge this fault and do something about it. All you have to do is display the "Porsche owners RMS Club" in your forum postings. A good place for it is in your signature or as your avatar. By displaying this image, it symbolizes your support to bring to the attention of Porsche AG that as a 996 and/or 986 owner (or prospective owner), you are greatly dissatisfied with the marque's ongoing RMS problem and that you are formerly demanding an official statement from them as to how they intend to compensate and/or provide warranty for past and present 996 and 986 owners, both now and in the future. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO SAY AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I CANNOT GUARANTEE IT WILL GET US ANYWHERE BUT WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOOSE. Please feel free to use the image as you wish, either here or on any other Forum board or whatever media you choose. All I ask is that you do not modify it in any way. Link to the image at: http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclub145x99.jpg Don't just wait for it to happen to you. Do something about it NOW! Your could be the next RMS plagued customer! Many thanks for your valued support. PS: for more information about this go to :http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140078

Scouser An interesting read. Co-incidentally members of the PCGB (Porsche Club GB) are meeting with the PCGB (Porsche Cars GB) to discuss the issue of RMS today - Understandably the results of the meeting are awaited with great interest by many members.

Nigel, VERY interesting! Please keep me posted. Adrian, Sorry, it is a small image but obviously too big for this board [ ] Anyway, I have updated it with one that will work here. Try again and many thanks for your support.

I am interested like many others, although I have not had as many as Scouser, it looks like I will be on my first one shortly !! Mark

I think the best way to highlight the issue would be to start an online petition with a post/ links placed on this site, Piston heads, rennlist, funcars etc. & see what sort of response you get. Just a thought ? Regards Grant

Hi Guys, please see my post "911 / 996 reliability" I have the RMS problem on my 98 C2, which is under warranty but as you say does not cover oil leaks, I am currently in dispute with Porsche over this as I have only done 1500 miles in it since October but now I am using it every weekend the problem has got worse. Not sure what to do if Porsche do not remidy under the good will gesture, but either way will not be paying £90 per hour to them, I see the independants offer this at £299 fitted should push come to shove. Lets hope we get somewhere with Porsche Club / Porsche Cars. Regards

Guys, Shall we find out what the outcome of todays meeting is first? Although the 996 register did not actively participate in the recent survey, I'm sure the fact that the engines are basically the same has not escaped the meeting attendees[ ] Personally I agree, something needs to be adressed. But my concern is not so much the fact that my RMS appears to be leaking, but more what will happen to the poor person that buys a 996 or Boxster in a few years time. A £10 to 15K car that might need £1K of repairs at an undetermined time is not going to be attractive to potential owners... And when prices fall to those levels that 944's are now, it might not be worth repairing at all...

Any outcome from the meeting ? Mark

Nic Doczi and John Bond have replied with the progress of the negotiations so far, in the thread on the Boxster Area of the forum ("The answer to RMS Problems" I think it is titled).

As a recent purchaser of a 996 I am hugely concerned at the RMS problem. Furthermore, as a lawyer, I am prepared to do something about it. The trouble is that I don't know my way around the PCGB Forum, so find it difficult to either focus my activities or rally support. As it happens, I have not had any RMS problems, but God help the dealer who sold me the car and Porsche if I do have ! In the meantime, if there are any other members who wish to participate (in even a low key way) with a view to making positive progress with this obviously serious fault, then they can do two things :- The first is to forward this email to as many other members who may have an interest in this situation, and the second is to email me and register themselves as wishing to be kept in the loop. Steve Lyden-Brown.

Am I correct in thinking that you have heard of reputable independent Porsche specialists who can do the work required to make good an RMS failure for less than £300 ? If so, then it is critical that you identify these specialists for a number of reasons, none of which I shall bore you with now, other than to say that, if nothing else, any poor bugger who has an RMS failure can at least hope to get it sorted for not a lot of moolah. Please respond with details. Your reply is likely to be the first step towards getting sorted a major problem that affects a lot of your fellow members. Cheers, Steve. ps. I don't mean to sound so bloody pompous, that is just the lawyer in me !

Steve, The direct link to the Thread is here ---> http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=51667 The 1st post contains links to technical descriptions/eplainations/photos of the problem. Then there is a lot of discussion, and of course finally the progess so far. I hope that helps? Mark

My last email was addressed specifically to TISKPJ, who ( God bless him ! ) seems to have discovered Porsche specialists who can sort RMS problems for less than £300. This seems just a tad unlikely to me, but it is too good not to follow up ! TISKPJ, we await your answer with bated breath ! Cheers, Steve.

Hello Mark, Good man ! Good man ! I shall follow your link and explore further. Many thanks. Cheers, Steve.

Steve, I think this might be being blown a bit out of proportion by it's name "Rear Main Seal". As you can see in the link I posted above, it is just an oil leak. It MIGHT contaiminate the clutch, but equally it can go unchecked without damage. Normally the oil level is not even affected. It is just the frequency of the incidents, and the cost of fixing (plus the lack of a guaranteed permanent fix ) that are the issues. Then again maybe Porsche would take more notice if they get a load of quivering dealers phone them up after being harrangued by angry customers[ ] Edit: There may be a bit more to it after all - see a couple of posts down![ ]

Hello Steve, took me an hour but new I had seen it somewhere ........ Page 134 of the latest Porsche post specialist cars 299 fitted. For the record the OPC quote 4.8 hours for the job, as you know at about 90 per hour, most independants charge 50 ish so not a misprint Regards

Mark, It's a lot more serious than what you say. The RMS may indeed cause oil contamination of your clutch and/or flywheel. In this circumstance you would need a new clutch as any oil contamination would couse clutch slipage. It is very rare that the flywheel would need replacing but it too can become badly contaminated. But this is only the start of the problems that could ensue. During RMS replacement, the Porsche engineer uses a special mandrel tool to check the crankshaft concentricity. If it is out of tolerance specification it means the crankshaft is wobbling in the bearing (even if it is only wobbling by a few microns). This causes the seal to loosen and also has effect on the main bearing shells. The result is that oil can leak through the seal....or....residue clutch dust can enter the engine main bearing. In either case it can and ultimately (the cars are only 6 years in production remember) will cause catastrophic engine failure. This is the reason why Porsche exchange the engine when the tolerance of the crankshaft seal opening is out. Furthermore, the wobbling can transmit through to the transmission unit thus causing damage to the gearing mechanism. In fact there is some thought that a faulty gearbox could transmit similar wobbling through to the engine and thus cause the RMS problem in the first place! In all, what I am saying is that this is not a trivial issue. The RMS left unchecked may lead to engine and or gearbox failure. If your car is out of warranty then all best are off in regards to who pays for what. My issue with this is simple: it's a manufacturing flaw not a defect. It is a designed in feature (albeit not purposely). Given this, Porsche should be made to replace/repair these engines/gearboxes at no cost to the car owner. Porsche's tehnical reference refers to the RMS as the "Crankshaft Sealing Ring - Flywheel Side" Here's the official document on the subject of engine replacement concerning a failed RMS from the official Porsche Technical Service Buletin (TSB). Note that the fact that this TSB was published, is in my eyes, admitance to the fact that they have a problem with the RMS. Especially the "strike that, don't fix it, replace it" statement. See below: Steve, I am not absolutely certain but having suffered record RMS replacements and having studied and researched the issue of the RMS flaw in these engines for some time, you and I should get together to talk. I am also the instigator of the RMS Club campaign and the image (seen my avatar) being used by many 996/986 RMS sufferers across the internet forums such as here, rennlist, renntech, funcarsonline, and so on. I am currently putting together a web page for 996/986 RMS sufferers and it will host a register. Please do get in touch with me privately. Regards,

Berny (Scouser), I have to admit I had never heard of such a failure until I saw your post (originally in the other thread, but after writing my one above!) And I've been following this topic for the last 5 years! Thank you VERY much for the expanded explaination (above). I wonder if Nic, John and David knew this before thier meeting with Porsche earlier this week. If his is indeed the case, then I see no justification for Porsche expecting you to pay for the new gearbox (as you sid in the other thread they are asking you to do). Please keep us informed!

Thank for your message, TISKPJ. That it what we need in this situation- good, helpful and well informed guidance on how to get the problem rectified once the RMS fails. Many sufferers of the problem will be mightily relieved to hear that they can get it put right for not a lot of wedge. Of course, getting a positive response from Porsche themselves is quite a horse of a different colour, but I think that we are at least starting balls rolling, if not actually kicking them well down Porsche's throat ! Without being a mega pain in the butt, can you submit the specialist's details in full. I ask this since I cannot refer to the current Porsche Post, having giving it and the last half dozen issues to a pal who wants to find out how much to ask for his 1998 996 Coupe now that he is selling it for a Cayenne. He then, being a complete twot, managed to leave 'em all in the back of a taxi ! Cheers, Steve.

Hello Bernie, Re RMS problems - this message is for you. I shall most certainly get in touch with you privately once I work out how to do so ! ( for all I claim to be a lawyer and believe myself to be possessed of a mighty intellect, I am a complete geek when it comes to trying to work out how this Forum operates ---- has anyone ? ). In the meantime, please by all means email me directly on [email removed] and I'll be only too pleased to kick this RMS problem around with you. Cheers, Steve.

Steve, If you look at the bottom of the box under his login name, you should see an envelope icon with an arrow on it and "Email" next to it. Click on the envelope icon and it will pop up a Private mail entry screen. Just use this to email him. Hope that helps! Mark

Steve will dig out actual address and contact numbers over the weekend for you. The problem as I see it is that even if we replace the seal for £300, because the crank is not runnning central in the crankcase it will only last at best 6 months or so, if Porsche are replacing engines then one of those will do fine thanks ............... With any luck they will have run out of the 3.4 motors and only be able to replace it with the 3.6 lump, with the power upgrade kit for my inconvenience !! Regards

Thanks, Mark, for your input re keeping a sense of proportion about RMS problems. You may well be right, but nevertheless there have been an awful lot of mails telling of owners experiencing this problem several times, cars coming to a halt spouting billows of white smoke out of the exhuasts etc. etc. etc. Not only that, but isn't the problem of water/oil seepage into one another also attributable to the failure of the RMS, or is that a result of the porous blocks that Porsche allowed to be fitted to these engines. In the meantime, although I won't allow myself to get unduly alarmed or aggressive ( with Porsche ) about this problem ( after all, my car is fine- so far ! ) I shall keep a weather eye open for developments and certainly intend to help, if help is needed, other 996/Boxster owners to sort their problems out with any legal liability that Porsche may have. Cheers, Steve.

Tks. Tispkj, for your offer to come back with the info I asked for. I am sure that I won't be the only one to wish to make a note of whoever can do the work for £300.00. One other point you mentioned is of interest- viz : are Porsche replacing engines ? What do you know about this ? Are they, for example, replacing engines (presumably only when there is a valid warranty ) for UK buyers of affected cars, or US buyers, or both etc. etc. Any solid useable info.on this issue will help us progress whatever case can possibly be made against Porsche. Cheers, Steve.

As mine is leaking I decided to check the £300, that is for manual cars, Tiptronics are about £500 plus the VAT. There is a lot more to do on a Tip v Manual. As I am East Midlands based, I got a quote from ZENTRUM, the guys there originally worked for MERLINS OPC at Nottingham, and were recomended to meet from the Region 8; so I will go there I expect. Mark

Hi I have checked with Specialist Cars and that quote is for a manual, mine being a Tip the cost is £499 + VAT and is a 10 hour job !! Mark

Steve take a look at the boxster thread ............. Porsche are replacing engines, but only in the states by the look of it at the moment, that's part of the problem as I see it, the factory recognise the fault and will rectify it in America but not in the UK ........ .............. WHY NOT ?? Could be an interesting case to take up no ? Regards

You are right, tispkj, about this being a very interestsing case to take up. The mere fact alone that Porsche have taken serious action to satisfy customers in one country significantly weakens their case against their not doing the same elsewhere. At present, I am waiting for whatever developmetns may take place as a result of club representations. Cheers, Steve.

Steve ............... Dont hold your breath mate !!!

Hi Guys Very interesting thread. I have a 2.5 year old C4S that, next week, goes in for a RMS leak to be fixed. AFN are putting through a good-will claim as the car is under 3 years old & has a full OPC service history. I anticipate that they will come back with a contribution - probably half the labour costs. What should I be pushing for ? Is that a normal contribution ? Should I push for the whole amount ? They are quoting me £706 to fix the RMS. Julian.

Julian I would not be best pleased at the prospect of having to make a contribution towards the cost of repair in your circumstances. I would suggest you have 20 minutes with your Trading Standards Officer and get their advice over the way forward. Remember that a replacement RMS is not guranteed to be a once and for all cure.

Yeah, you should be paying zip and they should throw in an extra warranty period to boot. It's a manufacturing flaw not a fault caused by wear-and-tear. It's totally their fault.

Julian, you should pay nothing ............... I assume the car came from an OPC and if so they have even extended the after market warranty to include the RMS now. I also have a good will claim with Porsche for the RMS at the moment purchased last October and although a 98 car I have done only 1500 miles in it as I only use for fun in the summer etc. I paid about half what you did for the car but it still is not good enough, if I paid 60k plus for a car I would want it to be perfect not pissing oil out everywhere !!! The other question is who will pay for the next RMS replacement ??? If they wont budge get it done by an independant for £300 ............... Regards Paul

Adrian, problem is that even if it is covered under a warranty such as yours, you still have to get the car to the dealer and will be without it for at least a day, or nearer a week if you let Lindbrooke do it ................. Regards Paul

FYI, I have an '03 boxster which had a failed RMS within 10 months from new. My service manager at OPC couldn't quote the price of a service off the top of his head, but could quote the price, time taken and parts cost involved for a RMS fix. Makes you wonder doesn't it. [ ]

Adrian, The answer to (some) of your questions is in ----> This Thread (link) <---- I believe you are correct in that the GT3 etc are a different engine.

The models that the RMS problem is of concern is 986 (boxter) and 996 (Carrera C2/C4/C4S). Of course most car engines have an RMS (and a FMS). This includes the GT3, Turbo etc. But the manufacturing flaw concerns the previosuly mentioned engine blocks only. The special measuring tool used to check the tolerance is actually called a mandrel (part no. 9699/1) . (here's a pic care of Tool Pants on renntech) from the TSB Crankshaft Seal - Flywheel Side (R & R Procedures): - When checking the installation position of the crankshaft, if the special tool 9699/1 cannot be placed with slight resistance in the crancshaft housing bore, the engine must be replaced with a replacement engine.

Been told todaay that they will not cover my replacement under the old type warranty ........ nor will porsche accept thegoodwill claim from my OPC ............ I have to talk to porsche uk and see if I can get them to change there mind .........

Some advice: Write to the Customer Assitance Center in Reading. Tell them how pi$$ed off you are at owning a late model porker and it suffering engine problems. Tell them you are a member of pcgb. Tell them that you are also member of Internet Forums for Porsche cars. Tell them that RMS is a big issue and that it has been proved to be a manufacturing flaw and so they must put it right for no charge. On a brighter side, the good-will cost will most likely be more than what an ndependent will charge you for the whole job. Finally, now that your in the club. How about displaying your anger by showing the RMS Club avatar. Best of luck with it. OH yes, suggest you go read the RMS thread in the Boxter Register. Some interesting readeing there. Cheers,

Richard at Club Autosport (01384) 410879 has a 996 in for RMS repair at the moment. Richard is like a walking encyclopedia of Porsche technical information and from what he was saying they have developed a 'permanent' fix for this problem that they have been fitting to some track cars with great success. I think he mentioned something to do with Duratec cylinder heads but I got a bit lost during the explanation [ ]. Anyway, thought this may be of interest to those whose vehicles are out of warranty.

Thanks dan worth a call to him if Porsche dont fix mine for free ........ Could be a double seal or suchlike, i have seen these on some other types of engine.

My OPC called me today to advise the Porsche GB were prepared to pay half the costs for the RMS work to be carried out under "good will". This resulting in me having to pay £260 for the work. Although this is obviously better than the full whack......... I have told them to reconsider. Basically its an April 2001 car that has had the RMS work carried out under warranty before witin the first 2 yrs. My view is that as its a 2nd correction its even more reason for Porsche to foot the full bill?

Update on my "RMS leak". Car was serviced on Saturday. The technician said there was oil dampness under the engine, but that to determine if it was the RMS would mean dismantling the engine/gearbox. Advice from the service manager was that as it was not "dripping", and wasn't losing oil, then it was not worth looking at. I asked about oil on the clutch and he said it would have to be a lot worse for that to happen (with the RMS leaking). As the oil on the garage floor (well, drip tray!) is a couple of spots only, and I have never even cleaned the tray they are so slight, it looks like I may have got away with it so far... Strange when the other OPC said "yes - that's RMS" a few months ago when I pointed it out![ ]

MELUN Stick to your guns - your logic is spot on and with the 'track record' of your RMS to date you must have a very good chance of success - if not from a goodwill claim but through the small claims court - I would run them all the way in your circumstances!

Just to update on my last comments on this thread. I pursued the RMS matter through Porsche GB Customer Assitance and they came back to me and advised that although they had originally offered to pay half labour and all parts leaving me with a bill of £260, they now were within there rights to withdraw the "good will" , as they missed the fact that the car wasnt actually purchased through an OPC. They basically advised that I could either accept the offer or lose the offer!!!!! Although dissapointed and frustrated I decided to take the £260 cost and get the work carried out rather than face a bill of £600ish in the future. To remind anyone interested the car is an April 2001 that had both the RMS and the Intermediate item replaced under warranty after about 12 months with 4000 miles on the car. The car was serviced at the OPC it was originally purchased from and any all other noted work was all carried out at the OPC. I purchased the car in June 2004 (Just over 3 yrs old with 21000miles) from an Independent Specialist just down the road from the OPC. Before purchase I also had it taken for inspection at the same OPC in question who highlighted the RMS sweating. The fact that it wasnt purchased from the OPC seems irrelevant to me , as "everything" had always been carried out there???????

And it is exactly that: irrelevant. This is a manufacturing flaw. A defect in the manufacturing design or process. It was shipped from the factory with this flaw. Many, if not all these cars have this problem sitting latent and waiting to go off at any time. That's why you, me and everyone else is having the problem. Porsche GB have clearly breached the sales of goods act of 1994. They sold the car faulty. Now you carry that legacy even though you didn't buy it from them directly. The problem can be easily traced back to them though. In court, if you and I and many of the other RMS sufferers are willing to stand up and testify to having this problem, and we get an independant report drawn up to describe the severity of this problem, and we submit the Porsche TSB that outlines this problem, and we have the backing of PCGB with its survey......then YOU, ME and EVERYONE ELSE WITH THIS PROBLEM WILL WIN. You have seen Dr Mahen's report (n4das), they have a crib sheet to play you with. These Customer Service reps in Reading are all very highly trained. Every win they get they are making money. They don't care about you or your car or that you may be a loyal Porsche owner. These guys are only employees, they probably get commision for every claim they win. There is no customer relationship here. If you go buy a Mercedes next they don't give a hoot..... their making too much money. Stick with it and fight them. ALL THE WAY. You got my support mate!

Odd. An OPC offered full payment for the RMS on my C4S & the fact I bought it from an independant had no bearing. They just wanted confirmation that it had an OPC sevice history. It was an 02 car though just out of warranty.....& I did make a fuss. J