2004 - great deal or headache in the making?

So... I'm looking at buying my first used 911 and have narrowed it down to a 1995 or a 2004. I'm most inclined to the 2004 simply because it is newer and I would expect it to have fewer problems. That said, for those of you that own a 2004, please sound off and tell me the good/bad/ugly! Also - I have (big) 3 year old twins - can you actually fit two kids in the back seats, or are they purely for show? I occasionally pick them up... Thanks!

Umm...that's a weird couple of choices. The first 993 and the last 996. How did you come to that conclusion? 2004 is the last year of the 996. Don't pay a premium because all of the MkII 996 (2002 - 2004) are virtually identical. I've had two MkII and I have really liked them both...still have the second one. The engine in all all of the Boxters, 996 and 997 built between 1998 and 2008 were known as the M96. This was Porsches first water cooled flat six and the first with a "internal dry sump" design. In case you haven't heard, a *lot* of M96 motors have failed, for various reasons, but mostly because of a part called the intermediate shaft bearing. The early 3.4 litre MkI cars (1999 - 2001) and the Boxsters bore the brunt, but the later, so called MkII cars (2002 - 2004) were not immune. As stated earlier, the MkI 997 (2005-2008) cars shared the M96 motor, so if after doing your research you are too afraid to buy a M96 (your loss by the way) then you will either have to pony up the big bucks for a 997.2 (2009-current), or go old school aircooled with the 993 (1995 through 1998). Regarding the 2004 model...Some minor changes were made to the engine in the later years, notably the IMS bearing was upgraded. My understanding; the good news is that the upgraded bearing is a real improvement, but the root issue remained (it's a sealed bearing). The bad news is that it can not be swapped out with the "real" upgrade which is the LN Engineering IMS bearing (an open bearing with ceramic balls). If none of this makes sense, then do your research by googling LN Engineering M96 IMS bearing upgrade, or flat six innovations (they are partners in this endeavour). In my opinion, the IMS is pretty much the only *real* mechanical issue with the 996 Porsches, and even then there is debate whether the issue is significant or not. Dynamically the cars are gems, especially with some simple suspension modifications. They really are better machines than the old air cooled cars, but the engines let them down a bit, and of course the Porsche purists (I used to be one) can't stand them because they are very different than any 911 built in the past. As far as the 993 goes. Great cars, but they are expensive to buy and maintain, and the newest one is 12 years old. You will either pay up front for a cherry car, or you will pay to bring an average car up to snuff. On balance, the 993 will require more maintenance. My choice was to buy a nice 2002 model 996. My latest one had a new factory motor installed before I bought it. My first one belongs to a club member who is enjoying the hell out of it and has installed the LNE bearing for peace of mind. So far my costs of ownership have been very low and the car has been great to drive both every day and at the track/autocross.

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How I came to the two years - http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/549107-buying-used-best-years-worst-years.html I suspect I will end up with a 996. So, if I'm understanding, the 2004 is less likely to fail, but the safe money would be on an 02 or 03 with the LNE bearing? I'm not tied to an 04, was just looking at them b/c they were the newest 996 and there isn't much of a price difference between that and an 02, 03. What is the approximate cost of the LNE peace of mind fix, installed? I am getting the impression if the engine experiences an IMS problem, it is time for a new engine? I'm a "peace of mind" kind of guy... Thanks for the reply.

Wow - big thread. I don't have time to read it, but I reckon it said that the 95 is the best 993 because of the OBD1 and the big valves and the 04 is the best 996 because it was the last of them and the IMS bearing was upgraded. I won't argue with that logic, but at the end of the day you have to buy the best car for the best price, and the year of manufacture should come second. You are right in assuming that when the IMS bearing fails, the results are usually catastrophic. The engine sounds and runs fine until about 2 seconds before the bearing fails. If you are *really* sharp/lucky you will hear it and shut it down. More likely you don't hear it and the bearing fails, the cam chains skip, the valve train stops, the valves stay extended and the pistons smack into them. The engine will tear itself apart from the inside out. As ugly as it gets. Problem is that the original bearing is factory sealed with grease inside. After about 60K miles the 0-40 motor oil seeps past the seals and washes away the grease. The thin motor oil doesn't have the right properties to keep the bearing lubed and the wear begins. 10K miles later the bearing fails. The LNE bearing is an open design and the materials are designed to operate with the 0-40 motor oil. Problem solved....so they say. I don't mean to freak you out. There are many 996 with well over 100K miles on them screaming all over the country. Contrary to popular opinion...they don't all fail eventually. Lot's of them are just fine. Just look at all the Boxsters parked iat the hair salons all over town, I find it hard to believe they all have new engines in them. So please put it in perspective. As far as finding a 996 with the LNE upgrade done, that might be difficult. So far there aren't too many around, and those that are were probably done by owners intending to keep their cars for a while. Many other owners may not know exactly what their mechanic has done either...I have talked to a few people who say that they have had the bearing replaced when in fact they have only had the flange and seal replaced, or maybe even just the Rear Main Seal....that was another common (but minor) problem that has all been resolved now. Caveat Emptor...get proof of the claim! The cost of the bearing is reasonable, about $700 although that may come down over time. The cost is in the labor since the trans, clutch flywheel have to come off. Of course this means that the best time to do the fix is when the clutch is replaced, at which point the extra labor becomes negligable. What I did, and what I would therefore advise you to do, is to find a 996 which has had it's engine swapped out. When the clutch comes due, install the LNE bearing. I haven't had to do either of those yet, but by next year I'll be ready for that clutch I reckon. In the meantime I'm not worried. In fact....the *absolute* worst case scenario is that my motor fails and I have to buy/build a new one. Total cost will be on the order of $10K - $15K and that is pretty much what I would expect to spend on a 993 motor rebuild should I have gone that route. People don't mention that the 993 motors weren't without their issues either and don't get me started on the pain of routine maintenance and minor niggling heat and oil leak issues that all air cooled cars suffer from to some extent. One thing about Porsches....things can and do get expensive. I personally turn my own wrenches otherwise I couldn't play as hard as I do in this game.

+1 on everything Jasper says. I have a 99, when it hit 105K, I dropped the transmission and engine and replaced a bunch of parts. One part was the IMS bearing with the LN upgrade. Others were cam adjuster pads(badly worn), chain guides, all 3 chain adjusters (2 of 3 were scored), water pump, RMS, AOS (air oil separator), clutch. I plan on running this car another 100K. I do everything myself, could not afford it otherwise.

That all makes sense. I saw that the bearing was around $500-$900 cost, not the end of the world, I just wasn't sure how deep you had to reach in to replace it. I'm not looking for a car that has already had it done, I was saying that if I find a great deal I will probably just bite the bullet and spend the $$$ to replace the bearing/clutch at the time of purchase and be done with it. I'd rather know it is fixed than wonder if/when. I can deal with leaking RMS from time to time. Stuff happens.

A friend of mine had a 964, which is the same shell as the 993, and has several pics of their 2 kids, in car seats, in the back. Just saying. 996 has even more rear room They are very different cars. You need to actually DRIVE them both to understand, if you haven't already. Both can be expensive to maintain, so learning to do things yourself will save you some money (mostly shop labor money.. which near me is about $100/hr) You don't mention where you live, but the more modern HVAC of the 996 could be important if you like quick heat and cold reliable AC.

I'm in Louisiana, so A/C is very, very important.

What are the prices of the two? -Wayne

I just bought a 1999 996 about 6months ago with 47000. LONG STORY SHORT . The oil temperature gauge fluctuates when going aroung curves. Does not drop below 3 however. Dealer said I need a new engine for 15,000 dollar(rebuilt). He has already replaced the oil pump and oil sending unit. Funny thing is the car runs and sounds great. Wish I had a chance to do it all over again and not buy the car.

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??!? Did the stealership (oops..did I *say that? ) give you a diagnosis as to why you need to replace the engine?? Did you get a second opinion from a knowledgeable indie? If it were me, and the engine *really* does need rebuildng, I would get Jake Raby to rebuild the existing core - with the LNE IMS bearing, upgraded IMS, nickies, upgraded pistons, connecting rods - the whole nine yards. Probably cost you 5 grand more, but you would end up with a car in a whole new league from a performance and reliability perspective.

Oil temp goes to 3? what? Maybe oil pressure drops to 3? Anyway, if you want a "modern" ride, go with the 996. If you want a "classic" ride, go with the 993. Enjoy your serch and be sure to TEST DRIVE as many examples as you can to get a better feel for what you like.. not what some anonymous posters say.

Fwiw, I have 2000 996 and use it as my daily driver. It has 106,000 miles on it right now, increasing by about 18,000 miles per year. The engine and clutch are original and have been absolutely reliable. My car has no leaks and has not exhibited any sign of an IMS problem. The car has been among the most reliable cars and trucks I have ever owned. When I change my clutch, I'll almost certainly change out the IMS bearing to the LN Engineering unit - while I'm in there.

Correct -oil pressure drops to 3. Any additional thoughts on what this could be?

Chasman, check this thread out (on the much more active Rennlist 996 forum): Oil starvation.... - Rennlist Discussion Forums Oil Pressure drops in turns are usually due to oil pump starvation issues, in a broad sense. It's possible that the oil level may be low enough in the sump that the pump may be having some issues picking up enough oil to maintain pressure in turns. Have you tried adding maybe another 1/2 quart of oil?

Thanks for the advise however I have already done that and the issue still remains.

I love my 2002 C4S. Contemplated an older 993 and had an air cooled 84. I much prefer the newer ride as a daily driver. I always felt enclined to keep an older car in the garage as a queen. The kids also like the comfort.

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We just saw one like this in the shop. Car had exact same oil pressure drop in long corners at the track. It had the LNE bearing upgrade and a deep sump kit but neither helped. It just died at the track. The oil filter revealed lots of metal flakes and it appears the engine is toasted. CHECK YOUR OIL FILTER for metal fragments. You'll have to cut it open with an oil filter cutter or something that won't make flakes (like a hack saw). The metal is coming from the crank bearings and oil starvation will just accelerate the eventual destruction.

Thanks for the info on the oil filter Tony the targa . I will check into that.