How many of you came from an E46 M3?

I'm likely going to sell my much loved E46 M3 in order to get a 996 911 C2. As an all rounder car, the M3 is really hard to beat and as a daily driver superior to the 911, but now that I've moved back to a city where it makes sense to own more than one car I can afford to have a car that's not quite as practical. Wondering how many of you are past or current M3 owners - would be great to hear your experiences between the two.

some good thoughts here .... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...he%20911&mid=0

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I really don't know if this is true or not, but explain why you think this is true? Obviously the M3 has more backseat room, but what other daily driving compromises do you expect to suffer with in a 911? A 996 seems like it would be pretty easy to live with? I daily drive my 964 (seriously needs a AC recharge!!) and love it. I would expect a 996 to be a dream in comparison...

This is an individual decision of course, but I did this and haven't looked back. The motor on my '03 M3 was sublime; but I found the hard shifting transmission combined with the touchy brakes made it very hard to drive smoothly. In contrast, the '03 996 I bought was a driver's delight and enjoyed every second I spent with it (I have an '08 997 now which is even better!). Only downside for everyday driving is, as you mention, the inability to carry two adults in the back seat. Driving pleasure wise, for me, is absolutely no contest - the Porsche wins hands down. Good luck with your decision!

911Jetta, drop me a PM if you'd like help with your A/C! Other than the backseat issue, I prefer the 996 as well. The M3 feels very big and impersonal. To be honest, it is smoother, and a tad faster than an MK1 car. It is nowhere near as fun to drive or to live with in my opinion though. I've owned several older Porsches, and e36 M3s, but never an e46. I will admit that steering feedback is better than earlier M cars though.

Before to buy mu 2000 994 C4 i tried an M3 2003 full equiped. A world of difference between those cars. First the M3 is heaver then the Porsche and driving the car is totaly different feeling of driving is friving an not as fun as driving a 996 Second the engine sound of the M3 is really s?%t when you compare it to a 996 Third The suspension of the M3 is like...you really feel like no suspension at all really hard rock suspension My delay driver is a BMW 2000 3 series..really reliable car thout Finally if i bought a 996 is just because of all these difference and many others.... A Porsche is a Porsche and when you tell to anybody that you drive a 911 Porsche there's eyes change and they want to see it but when you say you drive an M3 BMW most people don't even know what is an M3......a good car but really not as attractive as a Porsche and believe i know what i'm saying. I'M driving Porsche car now for more then 22 years so..... If you want to drive something different and have fun... buy a Porsche but if you just want a fast car with so and so pleasure to drive and seats for you grand father and grand mother then stick with your BMW. Robert

It was supposed to be just a fun test drive on the C4S. Now, I'm able to say that I *had* an E46 M3.

Oh I'm not in need of convincing to get a 911 - right now I'm mainly just test driving 964s, 993s and 996s to see which tugs at the heart strings the most while not tugging too much on the purse strings This is definitely not the first time I've considered a 911 - before I bought my M3, I took some 996s around the block but again being limited to only one car living in SF (honestly sometimes I felt like having a car at all was questionable) the M3 was the smarter choice. 911Jetta - I say it's a superior daily driver for purely objective reasons. The suspension is not quite as harsh (in stock form apples to apples), both interior as well as storage space is hugely more spacious in the M3 (I've fit 6 people including myself in my M3 and on other occasions have fit a full set of 19" rims and loose tires with some clever positioning), rearward and side visibility is better, interior quality is improved with better ergonomics, creature comforts such as silly things like cup holders, seat heaters, etc are common on the M3, clutch requires lighter pressure (important when you're hitting max speeds of 10 mph at times during a crawling commute), and lastly depending on who you talk to the M3 is more reliable (to be clear though, I'm not convinced of this - the M3 definitely has its own share of issues). I say these not as a criticism of the 911 though - because they are cars built with different focuses. The M3 is a GT that's designed to do everything superbly and of course there will be compromises in terms of how sporting it is compared to the 996 - which is proper sports car with some noddings toward luxury especially in the 996 and up models to make it more palatable to those who purchase it as status symbol instead of for its sublime driving experience. It'd be like criticizing a cheetah for not having much meat on its bones because its designed to be fast. That said, the mk1 996s I've test driven definitely are not as fast driven back to back with an E46 M3. Not that concerned about that - the 996 is still fast enough to get me in trouble! I am a little concerned about the seat ergonomics and lack of adjustability compared to my M3, but not a deal breaker. Parts costs on the 996 are actually comparable to the M3 which I was not expecting - I guess that's another positive of a higher production run car, more companies to manufacture spares. Typical consumables like filters, clutches and brakes are about the same price wise.

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Nice, I see you've also owned an E39 540i. I've actually owned a couple of them - great cars.. until the timing chain guide cracks, allowing the chain to flop around and cause catastrophic engine damage. How would you compare the C4s and the M3?

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The shifter on the 996 compared to the E46 M3 is definitely night and day. Though I wouldn't say the M3's is horrible, in fact it's quite good, but the positive engagement and feel of the 996 shifter is really another class - the M3 feels rubbery in comparison stock for stock. I don't have many issues with the brakes myself - though they definitely a different feel when I'm coming from my 72 bimmer 2002. Someone else has mentioned the engine note, and I grudgingly agree that the 996 does have the superior sounding engine stock for stock. With an X-pipe to get rid of the rasp and some supersprint pipes, the M3 can sound brilliant but the 996 doesn't require nearly the same amount of surgery to get a musical exhaust note.

Had two. Great cars - would love to have another - would not give up P-car for one.

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Would you mind elaborating on your experiences living with both?

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A few decent posters in that thread, though there is some pretty clueless crap in there too complaining that the M3 is a "barge" and "nothing special, basically a tarted up 330CI", which from having owned both, is extremely ignorant.

I had a 2002.5 M3. I bought a 1995 M3 from an old co-worker and found myself not needing 2 M3's so I traded the E46 off for a 996 C4S (then traded that off for a 996 Turbo). If I could have just one car, then it would be an M3. You can daily drive the 911, but I like the M3 because of it's practicalness (it does ok for trips to Lowe's or Home Depot) and it's low-key appearance. And if I'm going to a place where parking is questionable, then I'll take the M3. Heh... a friend and I went to get some sodas for a poker game yesterday and 4 12-packs of Coke were the only things that could fit in my Turbo's trunk, LOL. My E46 M3 had an Eisenmann exhaust and it sounds very nice at WOT towards the 8k redline. My buddy has the Euro headers/cats and Dinan exhaust combo and it sounds even better than mine! I found the steering to be sluggish, the 996 has razor sharp steering -- sneeze and you'll find yourself in the next lane. The seats on the 996 fit me like a glove, in fact, my g/f said she could fall asleep in the 996 whereas she never said that about my M3's. At the track, the M3's have a bit of understeer (of course), but the handling is predictable and the car is easy to drive. I have not taken my 996 to the track yet (and probably won't until I can afford to write it off). If you have no problems w/ my concerns (needing backseats/trunk capacity, parking, etc), then get the 996 if you have the means. You only live once and should experience a Porsche at least once in your lifetime. /m

I do not understand why you come to this site to talk about M3. If you finally prefer the M3 and if the M3 got all the quality you are looking in a sport car just stay with the M3 and go to the Bimmerforum....there you can talk about your lovely M3 and let us talk about our 996. We are not on this site to try to convince anyone that our car are better then others so please stay away from this site. It is not by saying that the M3 is better then a Porsche....anyway you know what i mean..... Have fun with your lovely M3 Robert

People who would purchase a BMW M car fit similar mindset to those who would purchase a 911. As you can see, that assumption is proven out by the fact that there have been several people here posting of their experiences owning both. If you read the contents of any of my posts to date, I have not said that the BMW is "better" than the Porsche. The M3 is the better all purpose tool while sacrificing some driver engagement/enjoyment - this to a certain degree isn't just an opinion, it's a matter of engineering goals for each car. As I've said, begrudging a 911 for its storage space is ludicrous for that reason as well. I have also already noted that I'm not looking for someone to convince me - actively searching for the right one. As I've said the main reason I've waited this long is because living circumstances/practicality prevented me from it. Strangely, it seems like the 996 market is pretty limited right now - been hard to find a decent example. I have found one that's in a color combo that I like and have an offer out on it, but I'm a little wary of the fact that it has had 4 owners.. At the end of the day, what all of us are here are gearheads and enthusiasts, regardless of the badge on the hood. Because of that I'm certain that I'm not the only one that's curious to hear experiences from those who've owned both. Now back at the matter of hand..

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The answer is in his first sentence ... QUOTE ... "I'm likely going to sell my much loved E46 M3 in order to get a 996 911 C2"

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Yeah, the E39 is a great car. I'd love to get an E39 M5 when circumstances permit. I was coming from a lightly modded M3, with Brembo brakes all around, Dinan Stage 3 Suspension, LTW flywheel, M5 clutch, solid RTABs, H&R sways, Supersprint titanium cat-back exhaust (midpipe, s-pipe, muffler), SSK, AFE intake, LTW battery, etc. And even then, the first time I drove the *stock* C4S from the dealer, it felt very direct and more raw. I took my C4S to a canyon run after owning it for a few days and the difference is amazing between the two cars. I used to take the M3 to the track, auto-x, and canyons and while the car provided great confidence, it still didn't feel as connected as the 996. Others have posted similar sentiments, I suppose.

I have found in situations like this going to drive a both a couple times really clarifies things. No one can apply your priorities to the two choices as well as you can. I bet your decision will be much easier if you go drive both a couple times.

if u can have only one car, then bmw is a decent compromise. if u can have many cars, then add a porsche to the stable. porsche is not a car, it's a toy.

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Hmm.. ninja edit from your last post? Seriously man? How does my original post call for that kind of a response? I have been nothing but respectful and I have said multiple times that I am planning on purchasing a 911 and totally agree that it's not as connected and sporting of a car compared to a 911. I'm slightly curious why you have owned 3 out of the 4 gens of M3s if you think "they are all pretty pathetic"?

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i edited the orig response b/c i didn't understand your post as i was on iphone. when the whole post loaded, i read again and i realize i didn't know what you asked and i was being an *******. thus i edited. i owned a bunch of M3's b/c like my "new" response stated that porsche is really a toy, not a car. the rear seat is useless and the trunk is useless, so i needed a bigger car. i have a bunch of audi S4 and M3's for that purpose. but compared to porsches from boxster to GT3's, bmw of any sort really pales in comparison, especially if you do a lot of sport/track driving. i can make OEM m3's of any kind melt in less than 5 laps at laguna seca. even modded one's wont last long, for one thing, bmw has NO brakes. most well driven M3's on track are on stop tech unless rules forbid that. so pls accept my apologies for my asshat response and use the short 2nd post as a guide for porsche shopping. and also as toys are, they cost much more to maintain. they dont break often, but when they do, parts are much more $$$.

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Haha no worries and apology accepted

^thank you. 996 has a bunch of issues too. IMS, RMS, do some searches you will see. but they are also very nice to drive. as you know bimmers also has their "issues". bad diff in E36, self destructing waterpump and rear sub frames. pick ur poison, but as far as driving is concerned. once you drive a p car, it's very hard not to keep buying them. do keep in mind last 996 was made in 2004 (unless GT3, which is 2005), so the earlier cars' suspensions are dead and will feel like waterbed. dont judge the car with bad suspension. do DO NOT lift.

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Yeah the "quirks" I've experienced owning various E36s, E39s, E46s and recently an E10 (nice little agave green 72 2002) lets me put porsche 996 issues into perspective. If you believe internet forums, you'd believe that 1 out of 10 E46 M3s are ticking time bombs with rod bearings, subframe mounts and vanos held together with a combination of elmers glue and rubber bands. Coolant systems are dreadful in bimmers - I mean, how many radiators and water pumps does bmw need to make to figure out how to make one that doesn't grenade after anywhere between 50-80k miles?? That and subframe mounts ripping holes and cracks through the unibody??? Anyways, that's why I completely take "sky is falling" threads on forums with a huge grain of salt - hopefully my skepticism serves me well in my soon to be Porsche ownership! But yeah, I've logged many hours of company time to research on the various failings of the 964, 993 and 996 Random stuff like the door check strap on the 993, cylinder head seepage on the 964s, and of course the dreaded IMS, D chunk and RMS issues on the 996. The RMS I'm not concerned about - even if it is somewhat common, it's not an engine killer unless it fails completely and spews all the engine oil out. Even then, you'd have to be an idiot and continue to drive the car to cause irreparable damage and also I don't think complete failure of the RMS has been reported. The IMS I am definitely more worried about, but as for engine killer failings, the LNE's preventative fix is relatively cheap and easy to install. The D chunk issues I've read are supposedly from ill calibrated casting machines in early cars. For cars with mileage range I'm looking at should either be proven out as a good example or would have already been replaced, as I'm specifically looking for a car with just over 60k miles on it with both the 30k and 60k services performed. I work on my cars, and transmission removal on the 996 looking at various DIYs seems a fair bit easier than front engine/rwd cars. Wrestling a 100+ lb exhaust underneath a car when you're doing a clutch job by yourself is no fun. I'm likely going to purchase the LNE IMS upgrade as soon as I pick up my perfect 996. I've been lucky to find two locally that I've test driven, one is vesuvios grey which has a purple tinge that I'm not crazy about even though the car is in BEAUTIFUL condition, and the other has had 4 owners which makes me a little leery in terms of resale.. Perfect one would be black with tan interior, 6-speed, litronic, with just over 60k miles. I've already started to build up my initial mod list.. probably a slight drop on H&Rs, 20% tint, IMS retrofit as mentioned, and turbo twists.

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heh. lifting is fun, just be prepared to countersteer and power over of course, I have the AWD to save my @ss for lifting.

Hmm I may have found my car.. pretty much fits all of my criteria and then some: black exterior, tan interior, manual trans, just over 60k miles, and even better - full leather interior: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/1812386442.html Anyone want to take a car out for a test drive in Los Gatos? haha

I'd rather take an Audi S4 over an M3... just throwing it out there as a previous S4 owner.. haha.

I had an 01 M3 a while back - now an 02 996 C2 - so here are my comments on both - The E46 M3 suspension is definitely harsher than the 996 - one of the reasons I got rid of the E46 M3 after 6 months was the very harsh suspension mainly for anyone in the back seats - my wife and kids could not tolerate the ride in the M3 but are OK in the 996 - Steering wise, there is no comparison at all - the 996 steering is amazing - The M3 steering felt slow and not communicative in comparison - I feel the 02 996 is faster than the E46 M3 at any speed - shifter feel - again there is no comparison - I found the M3 shifter to be pretty bad for such a car - I found the seats to be more supportive and more comfortable for me in the 996 - Overall driver feel is subjective but here again where I found the 996 way better than the M3 - 996 is a lot more nimble and I did feel the heavy weight of the M3 Bottom line and again this is very subjective, I feel the 996 is a very special car to drive and wroth every single penny - In comparison, the M3 was not special in any category other than speed and the engine power delivery and felt was not worth the money I paid for it.

I don't agree with everything's that's been said here so let me add my cents. -Both cars need short shifter kits to feel good so that's a moot point for me; it's only in the 997 where Porsche gets it right -The E46 M3 is definitely the quieter, comfier ride, but both cars are horrible dailys because they're small, too nice to park anywhere if you're **** about maintaining the aesthetic --> always ideal to have a nice truck-ish/SUV as an urban bruiser for my lifestyle needs (bachelor who parties a lot) -911 has a much stronger fraternity of followers and there's good reason why -Get the MK2 996 as I'd rather have a very nicely maintained E46 M3 over an MK1 996 as it looks a lot more dated in my eyes than the MK2 (don't even need to get into the technical upgrades) -M96 has the best engine sound (think jet engine at cruising speeds wow) -E46 M3 has a nicer standard interior (very few variances); but a tarted up 996 interior (full leather, carbon, painted parts) kills it in quality level (hard to find a truly fully optioned 996 car though $$$). For example, if you want the carbon steering wheel with the leather stitched airbag, carnewal will charge you well over $2K. Porsche dealer? You'd be crazy. -996 MK2 (I haven't driven the MK1 much) chassis, suspension, steering feel everything is sporting whereas the E46 you understand it's fundamentally a commuter car made in the hundreds of thousands

great stuff guys - thanks. Pretty much agree with most everything posted. Ugh, I just wish there was a way to tell which engines are more likely to have the much feared "d-chunk" cylinder liner failure. I can deal with the IMS and the RMS, but searching on "intermix" on this forum gives me the heebee jeebees. Nothing new to me though - I went through this thought process last year when I was shopping for a 996 then, and I think I've screwed my courage to the sticking place enough to dive into the porsche world now. Honestly, I can think of few things more enjoyable than car shopping

I had a stunning BMW e46 m3 is laguna seca blue convertible, with laguna leather interior and loads of extras, very nice car loved every single drive. but... The 996 is years ahead of it, the m3 has MASSIVE power loss. I have always had porsches, I bought the boxster in 1999 brand new and still have it but rearly use it, but the 996 I bought is out of this world, highly modded I know. I would not get another M3 as although at the time is was fantastic I have learnt so much now and the 343 bhp is lucky to really do 290bhp.having said that, us a bmw m3 a bad car, NO WAY, is it a car that is very quick, YES.. those are just my views comparing that to the 996, I love and have driven both so I rekon I am fair balanced.

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Don't sell the bmw if you want a taxi. Other than that I see a 917 porsche as a better daily driver in all aspects except battering ramming other cars. I don't understand figuring as you say "a car that's not quite as practical". As you might understand from others input, a harsh ride doesn't mean the bmw handles better. Just sell the bmw and get the 911 and be happy.

It depends on what your looking for. Do you intend on modding it? Do you intend on tracking or autocross or just commuting with an occasional jaunt on some backroads. I didn't have an E46 M3 but drove a highly modded E36 323is. With that being said, I got to enjoy the E36 M3 and E46 M3's (2 of them) that I co drove for a few seasons autocrossing. Dynamics wise, the cars are very different. Stock to Stock, the M3 (E46) is a pretty nice car. Nice power and good balance as the F/R layout is very forgiving (prone to understeer but nothing a little throttle coudn't cure). Also you can get away with a lot of mistakes and the car will allow you to get away with. Overall, it's a very easy car to drive and approach the limits with. The car's downside is it's size and weight. Because it comes in at around 3400 it's a hefty car. This mutes it's reactions and you really feel the weight transitions at the limit. My 996 is around 2900 but has 296HP for comparison sake. In contrast the 996 with it's R/R layout has very different handling characteristics. The car is also prone to understeer (Stock) but that can easily be cured with alignment and tire pressure adjustments. The contrast between the different layouts and how they effect the handling characteristics of the two cars is just night and day. As mentioned before, the M3 is very forgiving, understeer can easily be cured by a slight lift or going neutral and waiting for the front end to come back in line. In the 996, the lift can generate (Depending on tire pressures) trailing throttle oversteer, which is just a hoot when you get used to it. Also in contrast, the 996 is just so much more stable under throttle and corner exit due to it's rear engine, you can get on throttle quite quicker which generates higher corner exit speeds than the M3 can generate as you can get oversteer on corner exit with too much throttle or understeer depending on where in the corner you get on throttle. The 996 is quite a bit more sensitive and requires gentler inputs and really responds to smoothness and is not very forgiving of abrupt inputs. The M3 can mask these kinds of bad behaviors due to it's forgiving nature. Suspension set up for the 2 cars is quite different. For whatever reason, BMW feels that their shocks need to have very high compression valving comparatively for their low spring rate and rebound valving. The net result is a fairly harsh riding car. My 323is with PSS9 coil-overs rode better than my friends E46 M3 when it was stock and after it was modded with H&R springs and the PSS9's had a significantly higher spring rate. I digress, the 996 stock suspension rides quite a bit better and still handle's better by comparison. For me personally, I opted for the 996 for the driving dynamics and enjoyment the car provides. There is nothing wrong with the M3 but it's a GT car and it's a different experience. That being said, the 996 is not my daily car as I have a SUV that I drive to work. I do take the 996 to work on nice days like today but I tend to drive my Grand Cherokee more. Hope this helps,

As a new C4S owner, and a previous 2002 330ci owner. I can say the BMW is more comfortable but the P car is superior by far! as for a E46 M3, It's nice, but they are everywhere. I really wanted to get out of the BMW scene because and kid can afford one now... My opinion is this; get a Porsche and enjoy it. It really is a great machine!

The 330 has different suspension than the M3. Not a direct comparison.

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You are right! Porsche all the way though!

LJpete makes a good point, you really haven't stated the intended use of the car unless I missed it burried in here somewhere? I had my 996 Aero and M3 at the same time. Life forced us to choose between the two and I kept the M3 for several reasons. In looking back...from a drivers perspective I kept the wrong car, for every other reason I kept the right car. I will own another Porsche hopefully sooner than later, but for now the M3 puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And for the record, it's only 1-1.5 seconds per lap slower at Mid Ohio than the 996. Not as fun or rewarding of an experience as the 996...but not horrible either.

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Why go from bad to worse?

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330Ci to M3 is as big a leap if not bigger as going from an E46 M3 to 996 Carrera.

So... I just test drove a black 964 carrera 4, and it was a bit of a religious experience as I've never driven an air cooled 911. It was pretty freakin sweet - plus aside from some troublesome oil leaks here and there, they're pretty bulletproof cars from my research. As an added huge bonus - mileage is super low at 70k and it's had recent overhaul on all the usual oil leak trouble areas. I think I have made my decision - my garage may be getting crowded very soon..

does a e60 count? lol its still our family car 07 535i

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I came in one once.... does that count?

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Hi-yoooo

well, following up on this. I decided against the 996 and ended up getting a beautifully maintained 91 964 C4 for a great price. Black on black. The chrome wheels on there are going on ebay quickly and will be replaced with some MY02 five spoke carrera wheels.

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Quote: Originally Posted by r1de23 View Post I'd rather take an Audi S4 over an M3... just throwing it out there as a previous S4 owner.. haha.

S4s are great cars, but they're even more disconnected. Great for a city car, or a long distance hauler if that's what you want the car for, but for a driving experience, it falls short in my opinion. Supark, that's a sharp looking 964. I toy with the idea of an earlier 911 on occasion but I think the performance/ease of maintenance keep me closer to the 996 for the time being. I'm moving to an MKII for now, sort of the opposite direction...

following up on this thread - ended up getting a black on black 964 Carrera 4 for a great price in cherry condition and my Topaz Blue E46 M3 and it make a pretty striking pair I gotta say