Hi guys, I’d appreciate to pick up some experienced opinions here, tried to minimise info at fundamentals, apologies for the long posting. Purchased at an auction a 2009
Cayman
987.2
2.9
PDK
(MA1.20) with 60K miles.
TL;DR:
Cayman 987.2 2.9 L, 195KW, MA1.20, ran perfectly before service.
First shop: starter failed → repeated dry cranks → oil + PDK fluid change → zero oil pressure.
Second shop: oil filter bypass valve missing, pump seized, sprocket bolt snapped, small chain-guide debris found.
Plan: replace oil pump (P/N 9A1 107 050 13), flush cooler and galleries, re-oil, re-check pressure before considering rebuild.
Goal: confirm localized hydraulic failure before committing to an engine replacement.
Details:
I ran the car for some time, all was great, until I got it to the earliest mech slot for oil replacement. At the shop, the starter broke, the mech surged the engine trying to start it, no success, starter replaced.
Then engine Oil and PDK fluid replaced. On start, oil pressure showed zero. Mech is saying that he saw the pressure warning coming out before the oil replacement - I never saw it.
Hauled the car to a specialised mech. Manometer test done, pressure at zero as a matter of fact, filter was dry, bypass/return valve at the filter missing (wtf!). Sump cover stripped down, pickup was clean although at the bottom there was greasy oil cumulated along some pieces of brown plastic, presumably coming from timing chain tensioners.
Next, mech opted to separate the engine, then verified that oil pump was blocked, bolt holding the pump feeding sprocket was snapped subsequently. Mech is suggesting me to replace the engine, which I do consider an overkill, bringing a great deal of uncertainty.
I got an opinion from a very experienced guy who rebuilds these engines up to 987.1, coincident with mine: just flush the engine, change the pump, new oil and see how it goes - replace oil frequently (next 200 mi at first); on his experience it is normal to get some chain tensioner debris loosen at the sump for that mileage, furthermore the engine was never ran for more time than that to verify the warning pressure light, hence cold, I do presume the residue oil in the cavities would allow to minimum oiling, furthermore my understanding is that this oil pump model is multi-stage functioning also as scavengers therefore if this is correct likely oil residues were left on the heads.
On economics, a full engine rebuild would be 14K and a new-ish rotated engine 17K. An used engine with 60-90K miles sells for 5-7K, add up labour to all of that. On the other hand, the oil pump replacement plus labour would end up in around 2.5K (latest pump p/n 9A110705013 alone is 1K), but taking the “risk associated” for other areas of the engine.
My first question regards pump reliability, how might the blockage had happened? I know these pumps had a series of subsequent revisions up to the p/n above. Anybody has experienced anything like this?
I’d also appreciate if you’d please comment on whether the engine needed to be separated completely from the car (not open) to verify this problem (looks to me the pump is fully accessible from the sump, not sure about accessing the sprocket’s bolt).
Do you think that the missing bypass/return valve could have caused this problem (uncertainty about the fact it was ever installed!).
Cranking/surging the engine after the starter failure could have been one of the causes?
Thanks in advance!
A few things:
Please read:
https://www.planet-9.com/threads/be...e-posting-a-technical-question-please-read.254556/?post_id=2217915#post-2217915
Please learn to use paragraph breaks to split your discussion/question up into logical sections. You have it all mushed (tech-term) together, making it hard to read and hard to answer. The chance of getting useful answers drops precipitously when you do that. It appears as a wall of text, and old timers like me frequently ignore that sort of posting.
OK - also - we need more info.
Have you ever had the oil changed before this happened?
Was the shop that did the change one you've used before?
What was it that caused you to take the car to this shop?
A few comments on your questions and additional questions from me:
the 987.2 2.9L engine is quite possibly the most reliable engine Porsche has ever made. I have heard of no oil-pump failures. None. Zilch. NADA.
It sounds as if the oil pump seized up. That might happen if it was run dry, ie - no oil getting to it. Oil pumps require oil to work. Lack of oil will cause them to seize. If I had to guess - the shop doing the oil change - the first shop - started the engine with no oil in it. Or something that caused the oil not to circulate (perhaps the missing bypass assembly in the filter housing?). And that seized the pump. How long they ran it dry will determine how much other damage has been done to the engine.
The pieces of chain tensioner material in the sump also could have been caused by running the engine without oil.
The lack of the pressure relief valve in the filter housing might also be implicated in the oil pump failure.
You said "At the shop, the starter broke, the mech surged the engine trying to start it, no success, starter replaced." - what? What does "surged the engine"?
I think we can conclude the first shop is a butcher - and you don't want to ever take any car to them again. Given that - even when you get a running engine, I wouldn't start it until I checked the PDK fluid change they did. If they are that incompetent - did they also screw up with the fluid change?
@dellenberger, thanks for you reply and recommendations.
Have corrected my posting to make it more readable now, hope new readers would benefit anyhow. For the sake of understanding I'd add more details below, at the cost of verbosity:
Have you ever had the oil changed before this happened?:
No. the importer's mech (car is from Kuwait), after having insisted much, visually inspected the car and checked fluids to allow me driving to destination (Tuscany). I did not know the age of that oil, presumably old (later on, having changed at least the air filter myself, I realised last maintenance was done long ago - in the book...nada recently). Oil level always showed okay although once on a while the "check oil" amicable message showed up, but when checked: level was perfect, oil level sensor blamed at that time. No smoke/noises anytime, piece of cake, did not do any track/animated continued driving.
Was the shop that did the change one you've used before?
Obviously not.
What was it that caused you to take the car to this shop?
A friend of mine has a collection (GT3, 964, 993, Macan, etc), he uses the shop for regular maintenances, given the difficulty to find independent Porsche mechs in the region (and the bad reputation/unreliability/excessive cost of the official Porsche Center), so I trusted his experience.
On your comments:
987.2 2.9L 195KW engine (MA1.20) reliability:
glad to read that, and that was one of the reasons why I chose this car.
Cause:
agree, the pump seizure happened after cavitation definitively, by running the pump dry.
Engine running dry?:
The engine was never used with no oil, and started for few moments after the issue, for what I saw (and hope), to verify the oil pressure warning message. I want to believe the engine was stopped quickly enough to avoid hydrodynamic film collapse.
Chain tensioner debris:
agree, good point, could be but we do not know. On the other hand, if these debris were a cause and not an effect, while unlikely given pickup aperture, micro-fragments could theoretically reach the pump inlet - a low-probability but plausible path.
Relief Valve:
Non-trivial point, if I were 100% sure the missing valve was the cause, I could use this to litigate the first mechanic, difficult. Have researched maniacally: this is not only a relief/bypass, is a return valve helping to build up pressure at start. Second mech commented that sometimes this valve gets glued to the filter, "if you don't know its presence you'd dispose of with the filter", and he objected that "saw cars arriving even without filter, this valve could have not been the root cause, could been missing all along" - did not say on what engine models though. But as per my research, if that was the case, a very loud rattling would have happened at engine start (pump building up pressure), which I never experienced (although rattles vary with oil temperature and viscosity)
Surges:
starter solenoid was working, its spindle managed to engage the engine but not able to fully rotate/start it. Starter rates at 1.8 KW (150 A) consumption, more on spikes. I thought those electrical surges could have messed DME electronics at first, hence messed the electrically modulated oil flux valve at the pump. There were mechanical kicks as a matter of fact, the starter motor was only able to partially crank the engine, lots of mechanical stress. In my mind (speculative), I see this as one of the causes: pump sprocket's bolt snapping during these failed cranks.
First Mechanic is a butcher:
Agree, not sure how to build on liability, sometimes looks to me we deal more with art than with engineering (I'm an Engineer). After this great experience I'd look for mechs in other regions, one thing for sure will do whatever possible on my own.
PDK fluid:
Absolutely yes, all started from there, my friend's Macan got PDK fluid replaced, all went well for him, and that was my reference. Now addressing second mech to double check on this.
Where I am at now:
Have taken my decision after careful consideration of facts:
Replace the pump
. Please feel free to challenge/confirm as much as you'd wish to:
Engine replacement idea?:
Motivation: easier/better remunerated for second mechanic, crazy idea for me merely not based only on economics.
Pump post mortem dissection/examination:
if cavitated, proceed to replacement, in extreme: if debris found inside, replacement maybe's not a good idea, look for other solution...
Visually inspect:
accessible timing belts/tensioners for damage - if possible.
Pump replacement:
Flush engine:
disassemble oil radiator and treat separately, flush engine galleries, notice any debris coming out from process
Replace pump:
manual priming tbd
Replace Oil cooling radiator:
low cost item, difficult to clean
Replace oil on next 200-300 mi:
analyse used oil / dissect filter cartridge, look for debris (not sure an Oil Filter Magnet could help interception of metallic debris at filter)
That was long, therefore many thanks for taking the time to read through and for your curiosity/interest to understand better the challenge, looks like being one of of a kind... hope this issue could help others to avoid trouble by simply being informed on a some need-to-know principles. Really appreciate your follow up and comments!
Thanks for redoing your first post.. what I see as the sequence of events:
Running engine was taken in for oil service.
Mechanic #1 does something and the engine is no longer running. He claims it won't turn over because of a defective starter. He tried several times to get it to turn over without success.
Somewhere in here, the bolt for the sprocket on the oil pump broke. Weird.
Starter is replaced (Mechanic #2?). Engine started - the mechanic noted no oil pressure and shut it down
Engine removed from car?
Defective oil filter housing was noted, and some debris was found in the sump.
My WAG - the mechanic #1, at step #2, did something wrong and locked up the oil pump. The locked oil pump stopped the engine from turning, which then would stall the starter. The attempts to start the engine eventually broke the bolt holding the sprocket on the oil pump drive (pump still seized) and may have damaged the starter. That's where the damage started. I agree that the engine is probably OK if nothing circulated in the oil galleries from the broken oil pump. No bits and pieces. I would be a tad concerned about the oil pump chain. Was it stretched when the oil pump was seized? That force of trying to turn over the engine was enough to break what should be an unbreakable bolt on the starter sprocket. That's a LOT of force on the chain, and pad debris found in the sump indicates damage may have been done to the pad.
What to do? Your plan is probably as good as it will get if you don't want to do an entire engine teardown to make sure all the oil galleries are clear. It would be a lot easier decision to make if the oil pump didn't cost an obscene amount.
Please DO keep us informed as this goes along. I think we can all learn something from this..
