M96/7 in 911s instead of Mezger. Why?

I'm new to Porsche so I'm just learning about the drama. When anyone hears "Porsche", the first thing that comes to mind is the 911. I doubt many would disagree that the 911 is the standard and ICON of Porsche. (although on a forum there is bound to be a few). If I have my facts straight, starting with the 996 Porsche began installing the M96 engine in non-turbo models. What I don't understand is why. From a manufacturing standpoint, maning an aluminum flat six with all of its bits in one configuration would not be much (if any) more expensive than a slightly different config so why would they do this? Must Porsche pay a royalty for the Mezger or...???

Money. Price point needed to stay within a certain margin for the average buyer to keep sales figures.

So, that is my point. This is what I do so I know that one configuration would not be less than another.(at least not significantly if at all) If I understand correctly Porsche were struggling during that period so they introduced the Boxter which essentially saved the company for the time being. BUT, dumbing down the Mezger for the Boxter and non-turbos would have been WAY less expensive than re-tooling and manufacturing a similar but different configuration. And then, many 911 owners wouldn't feel like they're getting pissed on by getting Boxter engine in their ICONic car.

Get yourself a copy of the "Porsche 996 Essential Companion". It will cost you a few bucks but will tell you the back ground on the M96 engine and everything you need to know as to the whats and why's. Mezger engine is an incredible engine, but it had hit its limits from an emissions, cost, development, etc. standpoint. If it hadn't, it would still be used today in the GT cars, but it's not.

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There are so many books on the history of Porsche in regards to this generation of cars that I would strongly recommend you read up before convincing yourself (and others) that the 911 (996) inherited the Boxster engine. The M9X based 911 was engineered along side the Boxster, but the Boxster was released first. All the M9X engines from 1997 until 2005 had M96 designations from the base model Boxster M96.20 to the GT3 RS M96.79. There are logical reasons (e.g. higher end components, dry sump system, forced induction, etc.) why the 996 GT2 or GT3 for example, is more expensive and produces higher performance than the base 986 Boxster. And, there are also logical reasons why the Carrera M96 engines had compromises over the Turbo M96 engines. On and on it goes. Porsche is great at introducing many versions (special editions) of a particular model and engine designation. They have learned ages ago that "one size DOESN'T fit all". It's all about marketability and profit.

The accountants were in charge of engineering.. Welcome to the modern world, where this occurs with everything. The outlier is what I create, where I don't give a damn what it costs, or how long it takes to create.

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You misspelled "are" ;-)

At the end of the day, we have 2 choices. 1. Buy a Porsche with a Mezger 2. Or buy a Porsche without a Mezger. I have enjoyed my 996.2 non-mezger engine thoroughly over the past 20 years on and off the track without any problems, never once wishing I had a Mezger, or quite frankly a different Porsche. But I would like 100 more HP/TQ. So to get it, I will have my non-mezger 3.6 rebuilt someday in the next few years. The funny thing is that after my non-metzger engine is rebuilt, and every issue known to man and the M96 engine is addressed, I still won't give a hoot about a Mezger.

Yep, accountants. It might make sense to keep using the same parts over and over again, but Porsche has not done this the way General Motors has over the years. How Porsche makes up for it is by charging more for a �more unique� experience. For example, Porsche could have just used a 911 engine in the Boxster, but they didn�t so that some people would pay more for a 911 than a Boxster. They just price the car differently. They broke the rule with the new GT4 GTS, though, kind of. It has a GT3 engine, but makes 10 less HP for some reason.

Don't forget, the 997 was the last to use the Mezger engine. Mezger who? Is now how Porsche answers the phone.

From casual observation of the parts catalog there are about two times as many parts in the Mezger-derived engine as in the M96 clean slate engine. Since almost no one actually uses the extra capabilities that come with the Mezger-derived engine, Porsche delivered what they saw as what the market demanded - the 911 driving experience at a palatable price point. For any driver who felt the need for the additional capability there was the ability to option up to the more expensive engine. The market spoke; about 150,000 M96 powered 996's were made as compared to about 25,000 Mezger-derivative powered 996's.

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^^^^ THIS ... and they had already calculated how many m96's would get pushed past the design limits, That's standard cost/warranty calculations..

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Yep. Better typically costs more, whether it be the additional R&D or components, there's always a dollar value and consideration for "if it's worth it" in finance land. Many of the lower end 996's that MSRP'd around the $70-$80k range likely would have bumped what, $10-$20k (maybe more)? Some people this is not a big difference, others yes, and likely would have reduced sales.

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Not true. U can blow up a m96 and swap in a Mezger. And meh, me thinks u would be doing a lot of hooting if u drove my mezger .

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Only if you have the MEGA SKILLZ !!!!

My 4.0 FSI Stage II engine makes almost as much power as my 996 Turbo and more than a GT3 of that era. I don’t worry about it’s reliability. It makes a very fun car to drive! The M96 engine was built to a price point. The Mezger was built for performance when cost was not the deciding factor.

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Oh yeah! 😁

Mr. Lambo asked the same thing to Enzo and Enzo said built your F*&K ing car or maybe he said go back to building tractors...in any case you get the point. If you can do better do it. There is no perfect 911 yet they are all perfect. There is no sub for a Porsche period. And 911 is at the top of that chart. Don't second guess them. Just be happy you can still buy one.

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would love to see that dyno sheet because that last dyno sheet i seen in that air filter thread showed 323hp to the wheels for 4.0l track performer ll. but getting more to the point of this thread of why... cost and emissions. in your case u had to spend approx an additional $25k and it took a tremendous amount of time and money from a very dedicated enthiusiest to maybe get to the level of a mezger. There is no way what Jake produces would ever or could ever be massed produced. also on the emissions we have never seen any data on one of Jakes motors. I do know that as far as the obd info cares it runs clean and maybe it does but i dont think it has been subjected to the federal testing. All im saying is apples and oranges.

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OK so they went away from the Mezger in the newer 911s but I'm talking about the 996s in the 996 forum. So I'm comparing the engines of the time which were Mezger and M9X correct? Didn't they attempt to fix the emissions and performance issues with the liquid cooled Mezger starting with the 996 and all the way through the 997s (2014)? Porsche must have known the Mezger engine was better which is why it was used in the Turbos and GT models? Othwise your telling me that Porsche fixed the Mezger problems with M9X platform and that the M9X is actually a better performing engine which i dont think is accurate. Developing the M9X engine could'nt possibly have been MORE cost effective especially since they were already re-vamping the Mezger for the same issues. So, I still don't understand why they would put it in the Iconic 911 that customers were paying for. I do appriciate everyones imput. I'm just a regular guy and I'm learning.

I think the answer regarding accounting; answers all of your questions. Porsche had hired Toyota as a consultant at the time to help with their factory efficiency which is another cheap shot people would like to take at the 996 for its interior, blah blah, yadda yadda. Everything here is speculation on my part but based on what has been posted here I speculate that their consultation suggested they produce an engine en masse (fewer parts,) for the Boxste' and the Carrera made sense as the Carrera is also, from the front doors forward, the same car. It's a production efficiency thing. I also IMAGINE that because the Porsche boffins were already in their labs before Toyota was hired when the company was on the verge of liquidation... they had a water cooled Mezger to use that had already been developed. With 2x as many parts it just did not make sense from a mass-production perspective. It made sense in special cars like the GT3, GT2, Turbo - at the time. Again this is pure speculation on my part; but one thing I will absolutely put my life savings on the line over, (I live near casinos I can do this,) is the answer is somewhere in the company purse.

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Not certain what you are looking for with your questions. Do you own a 996 Carerra, turbo, GT3? Or are you looking to buy one? A little context would help to answer the questions. The Mezger's career was basically over. All great ones eventually need to retire. Emissions requirements, costs, profitability, performance considerations, yadayadayada, all went into the decision. Porsche took their F1 engine and endurance racing water cooled technology and came out with the M96. More racing, more technology, more regulations, more profitability needed and more new engine designs. It's inevitable. Mezger was obsolete. The king is dead, long live the king.

In answer to the question on the header to your thread. ​​​​​​996 GT3 Market cost today: 125,000 HP: 385 Rebuilt cost: Ask Jake, probably 40,000 Total Cost: 165,000 996.2 Market cost today: 35,000 HP: 320 Rebuild cost: 35,000 Rebuild HP: 420 Total Cost: 70,000 Which one looks better to you? Add/Edit: 996.2 rebuild will address every issue known to man on the M96 engine.

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Except, a market value 996 gt3 doesnt need a rebuild and its worth $125k A market value 996.2 will need a rebuild to get to the performance level of a gt3 (maybe, still waiting on that dyno sheet) and then its only worth maybe $40-45k per previous auctions with Raby engines so u will be upside down for many years. Bottom line is its all about the $$$. Honestly, the m96/97 is a great powerplant for the 996 but its design was governed by bean counter and that hurts the value no matter who rebuilds it.

Sure, there are a lot of ways to look at it. Comes down to everyone's goals and objectives. My goal was to answer the OPs question on "M96/7 in 911s instead of Mezger. Why?" To your point, I would say that the Mezger will need a rebuild, certainly not for the same reasons as the M96, but it's an eventual certainty for all GT3 owners if they drive their car, and especially if they track it. A garage queen is a different story. Agreed, to get the power out of the M96 to rival or exceed the power of the GT3, you gotta rebuild it. No other way. No question, the cost outlay to get the same or better performance in an M96 car is substantially less "All-In" than buying a GT3. This may be financially attractive to many. But if you truly want a Mezger, no rebuild and no cost saving will pacify you. From an appreciation standpoint, we could argue that the GT3 may rise in value more aggressively than the M96 car due to its uniqueness and scarcity. But you do have the option of using the M96 All-In cost savings to invest the difference, which may end up making the scenarios a wash. Haven't run the math yet to confirm. With your (DeJeeper) mechanical skills, you created a whole new scenario of a GT3 engine swap which changes the argument considerably. Not going to ask you what it ultimately cost you, but a do it yourself GT3 engine swap into a Carerra may be the most attractive alternative financially for performance and dependability. Only you know. But I get it, you won't have a mezger engine nor a GT3 with a M96 rebuild. Just cost savings and arguably more performance. My conclusion is that everybody needs to do what makes sense for them. It's as much emotion as it is logic when it comes to cars. Beautiful isn't it!

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I like both Mezger and M96/7 engines for what they are. I can appreciate pretty much any engine design...That said I do have quite a few M96 engines because they are inexpensive and have great potential. It's all about the Benjamins, your Benjamins and what you do with them. I think what everybody is wondering is what will the future hold? You can forget any involvement from Porsche. Yes they may do a few things as far as the Classic Restoration thing they do,but any real advancements in products, you can forget about it. Will the M96/7 continue to get new improved products? and go the way of the Beetle engine? Billet cranks, billet big bore blocks, billet heads, billet cams, complete Scat big bore engines? It is all about the $$$ and the market, the owners/purchasers are the market, so you control where it goes. And IF such engine advancements were available, would it be accepted because it is aftermarket ? Who knows??? The Mezger needs no real advancements. but some people will still go with improved aftermarkets parts and spend a ton of money of them, but will this continue? Or will everything go the way of originality ,where anything not original is bad even if it is an improvement in durability or performance , or that driving the car is bad because it gets further away from its original state... Who knows ??

I was in manufacturing for over 25yrs designing and engineering many of the products we all use daily that we don't think twice about and somewhere in the early 90's the manufacturing buzz word was "run lean" where something as simple as a very minor component modification or component material change costing more than a penny !! required sign off from the powers that be . Many of these mfg mindsets are still very alive and well today all in the name of profit and competing with the other guy and it's that strive to stay alive that brings many of the changes we see good and bad today.

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I feel like you are ignoring the obvious a little bit; all companies choose points of R&D investment where there is high short term cost and long term recouping of small defrayed costs. I haven�t seen it mentioned but keep in mind that the 996 wasn�t developed in a vacuum- it was developed specifically to feed many parts to the 986; you know the whole front end and a scaled down engine. The M96 in the boxster is the exact same as the 911 except for the displacement and related parts. So making 10,000 or 20,000 more Mezger engines may have been cheaper than developing the M96 from the ground up. But Porsche knew the boxster was going to be lower price and hopefully higher volume and like all car companies, they were working over a long projected time frame; not just 1-3 years. And they may very well have not been able to scale the Mezger down like the M96 and may not have been able to hit the Boxster price point with a scaled down Mezger.

RegularGuy, where did you go?

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First, let me say I have much admiration for De Jeeper’ skill to be able to install a GT3 engine in his 996 C2. My point is that the 4.0 FSI Track Performer engine probably produces about the same power as the GT3 engine. I believe the factory HP for a 2004 GT3 engine was 385 HP and that is engine HP, so deduct 20% for losses so it would be approx 310 RWHP. I would say that the dyno sheet in the air filter thread is probably fairly accurate to my engine. I do not have a copy of my Dino sheet on hand at this time. Yes, it takes time and money to get one, but is probably not as expensive as the GT3 conversion with the engine and all the wiring modifications necessary. I think this makes it a better route to take than the GT3 conversion for most owners who may be looking for a reliable better performing engine for their 996. Then M96 engine was developed to be a lower cost engine than the Mezger to be used in vehicles with a much higher production rate than the Turbo, GT2 ands GT3. The Mezger engines passed the emissions standards or they would not have been allowed in the US. My track performer engine was an elective build based on the fact that the car had 108K miles and incomplete service records when I bought it. I bought it, drove it home and then dropped the engine/transmission to install the IMS Solution, clutch, water pump, Low Temp thermostat, AOS, plugs and coils, coolant tank, hoses, belts and pulleys. I decided it would be a long term keeper so I contacted Flat Six for a motor reconstruction. I chose the 4.0 Track Performer primarily because of the forged rods and coated bearings. My goal was a reliable engine for the long term. I spoke with Jake Ray and got in line for the build. The car was returned at the end of Oct 21 and I have put about 1000 miles on it. I think this engine will fill the goal of a reliable engine with a substantial increase in power. One of the best things about this engine is the mid-range power, it does not rev any higher than the stock motor. Where I live we do have emission testing every year for registration, so it will get emission tested this spring. I do have a FSI 3.8 Stage I motor in my 02 cab and have not had any issues with getting it through the emission checks to get it registered.

At least once per week I receive a ticket from a guy wanting to make his M9X into a Mezger. They use the Mezgar as the gold standard, and for good reason. Since I build Mezger engines also, I can tell them that there's zero comparison between the two, and they only share a couple of parts. Trying to make an M9X into a Mezger was never my desire, I want to make my engine, my engine and base not off the underdog. Trying to make an M9X into a Mezger is a mistake. If someone wants a Mezger, I tell them that they need to buy a car with one.

^^^^^ In 100% agreement. Its just apples and oranges no matter how u slice it. I think both options r great but cant be compared. As far as the dyno for my gt3, it was suppose to happen a month ago but the shop had much more expensive stuff lined up and they couldnt get to mine. Ill gladly post my numbers so we can compare. Jake does build his engines for power band and not peak hp, so i would expect your car feels more linear.

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I throw the peak HP figure away when averaging my graphs. Since HP is TQ X RPM the higher revving GT engine will always have an advantage by formula alone. My engines never spin higher than the factory M9X rev limiter, so they won;'t ever make comparable power to a GT engine. They aren't supposed to, and I don't even care.

Focusing on the power under the curve is where the magic happens with one of Jake�s builds. This will make for a very quick, linear useable street car or track monster. Both options whether it be a FSI build or buying a Mezger car� I think we all could agree are the best solutions to stay with the 996/997 platform for the long, long (forever) term. I intend to stay with my 996.1 as long as possible, and the investment is worth the sum of my car, it�s parts, and my enjoyment. Personally, my future goals include a stage II street/track performer conversion, for my 3.4, with a modest increase to 3.6l. It will fit my combination of driving styles best, offer me the reliability/piece of mind and fun factor I am looking for, with this package Thankfully we have these options and support to make these decisions with our cars (built FSI engine, buy GT car, upgrade to a newer 9A1- which also has some weak points etc) De Jeeper kudos to your creation, definitely look forward to hearing all your progress continue here on RL, and definitely curious to see what kind of numbers your car puts down, and hear more about your overall driving impressions. You�ve created the .1 GT3 we should�ve had available in the states, I�ve thoroughly enjoyed your thread.

There's something elegant about having a product that is "enough," something that provides everything you need, but nothing you don't. It's actually commendable that Porsche was able to translate it's renowned engine formula to something with fewer parts that could be produced on a large scale at a reasonable price. It's an act of engineering efficiency. The result is that today we all enjoy 911s with "good enough" engines. Similar to how we have "good enough" steel brakes, despite carbon ceramic units being available, and bodies made of steel, rather than carbon fibre or aluminium. There's no end to the list of things that could be "better" about our cars, but I actually enjoy the fact that I haven't wasted money on a product that's over-engineered for what I need. At a certain point, there is diminishing returns on the use of more advanced designs and expensive materials. I've always felt that base model Porsches are a remarkable value for what you get, and the 996 is an excellent example of this.

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Sorry everyone. Work has been nuts. Gotta work hard to keep all of the entitlement recipients in the life their accustomed to. So, first, Thanks again for all of your input. Regular Guys like me are learning a lot. My context is this. I unexpectedly got Porsche Fever from my brother-in-law. He is a huge enthusiast and has been a great help to me. As I'm getting the story on Porsche I learned about this difference, and I admit that it really bothers me. And, in my study I've learned that I'm not alone. The two biggest complaints about the 996 were that it got the Boxter headlights and Boxter engine in many of the 911s. As someone who has not been interested in Porsche for long I can tell you that when someone says Porsche, 99% of folks think 911. The 911 is the Icon of Porsche and is held up on a pedestal as a something "special" in all of the automotive world. I doubt many would disagree. (but there is always somoeon) I love the "If I were the President" game. If I were president (of Porsche) I would make the descision that anyone who spends the money on a 911 gets the iconic motor, build and quality that should be expected in the Icon of said 911. Nothing wrong with various versions, for power or requirements but they would all have the Mezger block. That is just how I feel about it, its my opinion and I think it is an old argument. Anyway the part that I don't understand is why. JUST IMO that to me it's a slap in the face to many 911 customers. And to be honest I was surprised to learn about it and would have expected more from such a prestigious car company. I was actually expecting someone to tell me something like, Porsch must pay a huge royalty for each Mezger. That would have made sense. The cost difference just doesn't make sense to me for reasons I've already mentioned. If the M9X engine was their answer to a more efficient, higher performing platform, then the M9X engine would be a superior engine, but as I understand it the oposite is true. Elegantly having "enough" makes sense in a Honda or Toyota, or even a Panamera, but not the 911. The number of parts in the Mezger vs M9X engine makes a little sense but not enough for the 911 IMO. These are just my thoughts folks and I like discussing and Philosifising I don't claim to be any kinf of expert, I'm just a regular guy that needs all of your help to understand. Thanks.

The chevy 350 made way to the ls plaform, the ford 351 made way to the coyote and ecoboost platforms things evolve and change. If u want a mezger pony up some $$$. the m96 has lead the way to the current platform and its fast as f*ck.

I think this thread is ready for some BBQ photos

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Sounds like you will only be happy with a Mezger. Nothing wrong with that. But once you are in an M96 powered 996 at speed, on the track, you will begin to appreciate the M96 engine. It's a first class engine, just like a mezger, but very different and built for different reasons. The M96 was built looking forward, while the Mezger was used looking to the past. Quite frankly, I would be proud to have either. But I did willingly choose to keep my M96 powered car for the past 20 years versus selling it and buying a Mezger countless times over.

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You and others, who have made this point, are making a different point. Your talking about the "Evolution" so to speak, over time. I'm talking about one model engine vs a completely differnt engine in the same car in the same years. The 350 led to the LS in tons of sport cars. When they started putting lesser engines in them, Peaple hated them but at least Chevy charged considerably less for those models. But, I don't think people expect the same from Chevy as they do from Porsche. Especially the 911.

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I'm looking for a Turbo. I already know what I'm looking for. What to buy isn't the the point of this thread. If the Mezger engine is superior to the M9X, that doesn't mean that the M9X is a bad engine. It's just a boxer engine and since I hold Porsche on a pedistal I'm trying to understand why.. I wish they would have put their best engines in each 911. Even if it were different versions of the Mezger. But I also wish that Politicians were honest and that Jessica Alba was my wife so we know how much thats worth. BUT HEY, Maybe with a turbo she would go out with me...

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I agree, If I were in a boxer I'm sure I would love it, and I'm sure your correct about the 996 as well. I never meant to suggest that the M96 was a poor engine. One last question though. Were'nt Porsche developing the LCMezger at the same time they were Developing the LCM9X? I thought they were both being developed for the future. Or did Porsche know AT THAT time that the Mezger was on it's way out? Are Porsche still using the M9X in the Cayman or others? Thanks everyone. I'm out.

BTW. I thought all 996/7 Turbos had Mezgers but I just learned this very evening that there are actual turbos out there with the M9X. Is this common knowledge or an anomoly?

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You didn't suggest the M96 was a poor engine at all. Instead, you had asked a simple question: "M96/7 in 911s instead of Mezger. Why?" And we gave you the reasons why the M96 was used. These reasons are not to say that the M96 better than the Mezger, it was just different and a viable engine in its own right. On your question on if Porsche knew at the time that the Mezger was on its way out? Yes, it seems so. Plenty of interviews, articles, books, etc. Confirm that mezger engine had limited development potential going forward. But that in no way means that it wasn't an incredible engine, it was!

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not sure i understand. Chevy positioned the ls as a premium in their high performance cars with lesser motors at a better price point. Chevy is actually doing it this year with the zo6. The c8 gets a screaming dohc biturbo thats 100% different then the lt motors in the base. The zo6 comes with a premium price. this is the same thing that porsche did with the mezger. They provided the mezger at a premuum to anyone that had the cash until 2012. At that point the enviromenral issues with the nickasil piston coating and inability to meet emissions standards forced it out. Porsche knew the motor did not have a long term future due to regulations and ecconomics. if your point us why didnt they develop s better motor then the mezger.....its simple, they didnt have the capitol. They needed to sell cars first, build capitol and develop the motor over time.

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The 997.1 Turbo continued to use the Mezger-design engine with refinements. The 997.2 Turbo went to a clean slate engine. The 997 GT cars: 997 GT2 and 997 GT3 used Mezger design engines until the end. Don't be fooled by the engine numbers, the M96.7x and M97.7x engines are Mezger design and are unrelated to the "M96" and "M97" Carerra engines.

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1. Wait, so some M9X are actaul Mezgers??? I'm so confused. 2. If a turbo has the engine designation of M96/70, what engine is it?

I haven�t drove a Mezger, but I have never been driving my M96 or previous 9A1 and thought that I wished it was something else. I�m sure the Mezger is outstanding, but the M96 is a great engine that fits great in the non-turbo / non-GT 996�s. Brings a smile to my face on every drive.

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The internal engine code for the 996 Mezger engine is M96.70. When people refer to the "M96" engine they typically mean the M96.0x series. It's basically a meaningless code number. The M96.70 Mezger engine is not related to the Carerra M96.01 engine and shares no parts with the M96.01.

I think what RegularGuy is asking, is this: if it costs $100M to develop a premium engine and only $15M to develop a lesser engine, why not just use the $100M engine and drop the secondary engine, thus saving a few nickels. And if volume increases, costs should drop. I suspect one reason why is because it�s not just development costs, but also production costs. As Elon explained in a recent podcast, if the raw materials cost or other fixed costs don�t decrease for some components, then no amount of volume or consolidation would result in any cost savings.

MAN! I'm so glad Hitler didn't win

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Actually the Z06 is not turbo, but is naturally aspirated. It is the most powerful naturally aspirated production V8 ever made. It's an amazing engine.