Why is the 996 GT2 considered a widow maker? - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Well not exactly the GT2, but I’ve spoken to a couple of people about a RWD conversion on my lightly tuned 996 turbo, people who’s opinion I respect have warned me against it, however I’m struggling to understand why, there are plenty of 500 bhp RWD cars around these days, including Singers latest Turbos. Is it down to modern electronics providing a safety net for enthusiastic throttle use? Will / would I be flung through the nearest hedge backwards?

It's really about the torque and its delivery, on a RWD 911 turbo torque ramping up quickly and to a level above ~700NM you really need the PASM to keep yourself out of the hedge as on UK roads the cambers will make 2WD almost impossible to control. The Singers quote 750NM on their 750hp models which will be challenging but I presume they have some decent traction control strategy in place and are any of them actually driven at pace ? I had 800NM on my old 993 turbo which I ran in full 2WD mode a la GT2 and it literally wanted to spit me into a hedge everytime I deployed full torque, its Drexler LSD possibly even made it worse on cambered UK roads. With the 4WD drive reinstalled the drive was exciting but not dangerous. The 997GT2 and RS came with ~700NM and at that level the PASM light would flash regularly even when it seemed like you were fine. The 991GT2RS has 750NM and has 16 year newer systems to keep it on the road in 2WD mode.

are you sure you mean PASM?

markiii said: are you sure you mean PASM? PSM

Yep, delivery is the key. Even in a standard 996 Turbo, you can see that while it pulls, it really pulls after maybe 3500rpm. I haven't really checked because I'm too busy holding on.

I managed to put my 997 on the roof at very high speed. It was ultimately a tyre/damp spot on one side issue more so than torque, but the way it deploys power/torque and the rudimentary PSM (combined with a lack of driving skills) did not help. I suspect with 4wd it would have maybe just about been fine. I would love a GT2 again at some point and I would definitely get one with a cage again as that thing is not just for show.

There was no PSM/traction control in the 996GT2 so I suppose it wasn’t really suitable for unfamiliar drivers. I run 506bhp/480lb/Ft through the rear wheels of my 991, buts it’s got a wave track LSD and 305 section modern rubber. The function of these two items will have a big say in how you get on.

TB993tt said: It's really about the torque and its delivery, on a RWD 911 turbo torque ramping up quickly and to a level above ~700NM you really need the PASM to keep yourself out of the hedge as on UK roads the cambers will make 2WD almost impossible to control. The Singers quote 750NM on their 750hp models which will be challenging but I presume they have some decent traction control strategy in place and are any of them actually driven at pace ? I had 800NM on my old 993 turbo which I ran in full 2WD mode a la GT2 and it literally wanted to spit me into a hedge everytime I deployed full torque, its Drexler LSD possibly even made it worse on cambered UK roads. With the 4WD drive reinstalled the drive was exciting but not dangerous. The 997GT2 and RS came with ~700NM and at that level the PASM light would flash regularly even when it seemed like you were fine. The 991GT2RS has 750NM and has 16 year newer systems to keep it on the road in 2WD mode. I've only experienced the 991 GT2rs and its essentially a pussycat, it has a hell of a lot of mechanical grip even before the electronics kick in. I suppose 325 width tyres help as well. We were doing some filming with my friends and it was hooking up in 1st on a launch repeatedly. I cant say i'd dare drive a 993 or 996 turbo with rwd in the same manner

My 996 Turbo S (with 4wd) was pretty quick and in the damp the PSM system was definitely kept busy on greasy roads once on boost. I'm pretty sure at launch the 996 GT2, which had more grunt than the turbo S and obviously 2wd, didn't have PSM as std or as an option. So it had no nanny aids, and for the unprepared would chew you up and spit you out if it wasn't treated with respect. hence the reputation.

Groundhog Day ... https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Nothing inherently dangerous about the 996 GT2, the f*ckwits that get behind the wheel always were, and always will be the problem... That's not to say they can't be improved and made easier and nicer to drive.

killysprint said: My 996 Turbo S (with 4wd) was pretty quick and in the damp the PSM system was definitely kept busy on greasy roads once on boost. I'm pretty sure at launch the 996 GT2, which had more grunt than the turbo S and obviously 2wd, didn't have PSM as std or as an option. So it had no nanny aids, and for the unprepared would chew you up and spit you out if it wasn't treated with respect. hence the reputation. Turbo S 450hp GT2 462hp. Same turbos, same intercoolers, same exhaust. Different map.

it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his

WCZ said: it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his Ah the famous GT2 window maker

gareth h said: Ah the famous GT2 window maker whoops!

WCZ said: it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his Ah the famous GT2 window maker

Grantstown said: There was no PSM/traction control in the 996GT2 so I suppose it wasn t really suitable for unfamiliar drivers. Came on early Cup2s as well I imagine. Did a few breakfast runs where a guy brought out a 996 GT2. He never crashed once to be fair! Edited by John D. on Thursday 12th March 13:29

John D. said: Came on early Cup2s as well I imagine. Did a few breakfast runs where a guy brought out a 996 GT2. He never crashed once to be fair! Worse, far worse, PS2. Cups were released on 996 GT3 RS.

Cool. I used to run them on my Clio 172 Cup (another no driver aids widow maker). Would have thought they were better for typical UK winter/autumn/cold driving conditions? Not as extreme compound.

WCZ said: it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his Safe to assume, they weren't as "experienced" as they thought they were then. Cars don't kill people, people's ineptitude behind the wheel, unfortunately does. I've owned two 996 GT2's, and done 30K miles behind the wheel of them in ALL weathers. I'm no driving god, but they were driven very quickly and with respect. A driving day with the legendary Bernard Aubrey in mine, opened my eyes and helped me to understand what was required to drive them quickly and safely.

Bernard Aubrey https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0... https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Bernard was once described by former F1 driver and Le Mans winner Richard Attwood, as 'Simply the best road instructor in the country' ...

Slippydiff said: Safe to assume, they weren't as "experienced" as they thought they were then. Cars don't kill people, people's ineptitude behind the wheel, unfortunately does. I've owned two 996 GT2's, and done 30K miles behind the wheel of them in ALL weathers. I'm no driving god, but they were driven very quickly and with respect. A driving day with the legendary Bernard Aubrey in mine, opened my eyes and helped me to understand what was required to drive them quickly and safely. no doubt but either way it's a sad story and I think it's fair to say they are a tricky car to drive - you're probably a better driver than you give yourself credit for too

Slippydiff said: Bernard Aubrey https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0... https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Bernard was once described by former F1 driver and Le Mans winner Richard Attwood, as 'Simply the best road instructor in the country' ... Looks like he has handed over the reins: https://www.robertcolbourn.co.uk/bernardaubry

WCZ said: no doubt but either way it's a sad story and I think it's fair to say they are a tricky car to drive - you're probably a better driver than you give yourself credit for too They require respect, nothing more, nothing less, but any rear wheel drive car with 450hp, zero driving aids, a stiffly suspended chassis with limited suspension travel, does. I've been in the passenger seat of one driven by an individual who was totally inept. I knew exactly what the outcome was going to be, and why that outcome was inevitable. The car hit the Armco head on, on the side of slip road going onto a dual carriage way, I estimate the speed to have been 70-80mph. I watched as the front of the car went under the Armco, and the Armco slowly but inexorably came closer and closer to the windscreen. I remember thinking that this was "it" and that hopefully decapitation would be quick and painless. Then the sheer weight of the Armco (the impact and wedge action of the car travelling under it, lifting it up) stopped the forward motion of the car and ejected it backwards back onto the slip road. The car did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco again 100ft further down the slip road , and with such force that it ejected my glasses off my face ... The initial impact had lifted the complete section of Armco and two securing posts 60-80ft apart, clean out of the ground. I found my glasses in the footwell and got out, and walked around to the drivers side of the car to find the driver standing looking at the car in disbelief. His first comment wasn't "Are you ok ?" No, it was "I don't know what happened then .... " Hmm, I thought, where do I start ?

Interesting and instructive tale Slippy. Glad you and the other bloke came out of it okay.