General Repaint Question and Warranty - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hoping the wealth of knowledge on the forum can help with a dilemma... I'm currently running a fantastic 997.1 C4S Cab in GT Silver Metallic. Unfortunately there are a few scratches and some peeling paint/clearcoat (due to stone chips) across several panels: a) the front bumper, b) the bonnet, c) the rear bumper, and, d) one of the rear quarter panels. Having had a few quotes and looking at all the damage together (damage to the car and to the wallet) I'm starting to wonder if it makes sense to have all of the panels repainted, both the damaged ones and the undamaged ones (the doors, the other quarter panels and the cab housing). I'm assuming everything can be done (relatively) easily except for the A pillars and the top edge of the windscreen. Thoughts? Is this a silly approach and will it create all manner of other problems? Also, the car is currently under Porsche Warranty... am I obliged to have any work handled through Porsche? Appreciate your help.

If it's bothering you, if you have the resources and you have access to a quality painter, then why not! If two out of those are yes, then still why not! If only one of the three is a yes, then why bother! Good luck!

Having the car resprayed will not affect the Porsche warranty but if the work is done by a non Porsche approved vendor then it will void the 10 year anti corrosion guarantee.

Every used Porsche has had the front painted before sale

Lordglenmorangie said: Every used Porsche has had the front painted before sale Not true. Only those that need it. OP I would think very carefully before considering a total respray this will be very costly as to do a proper job and major stripping of the car will be required. The peeling lacquer could indicate the car has been repainted before at some point. It would be useful to find out to what extent. You need to be careful with silvers they can be difficult to match......

av185 said: I would think very carefully before considering a total respray this will be very costly as to do a proper job and major stripping of the car will be required. Yeah I'm not too enthusiastic about shelling out but the quotes I've received for respraying the specific panels are coming in at around 75% of the quote I have from RSJ to do a full respray. I'm assuming RSJ are good for a full respray? av185 said: The peeling lacquer could indicate the car has been repainted before at some point. It would be useful to find out to what extent. Any suggestions as to how I can find this out? A paint depth gauge? av185 said: You need to be careful with silvers they can be difficult to match...... Yeah, concerned about that and this is partly driving my potential preference for a full respray. Appreciate your help. I don't want to make a decision on this lightly.

Difficult decision. I think you also have to consider how much a future potential purchaser may be deterred away from the car knowing it has been totally repainted. A total repaint could impact on residuals. The car sounds between 5.5 and 9 years old I guess. On the other hand, by painting the bonnet and rear quarter chances are this will have to be blown into adjoining panels anyway (wing tops, door etc) prior to lacquering those panels also. Personally don t know anything of RSJ, I assume you refer to the Porsche Indies but do they have their own paintshop......

av185 said: You need to be careful with silvers they can be difficult to match...... Question? Is there any colour / paint that isn't difficult to match? Regardless of colour I can't think of a single occasion where this BS statement hasn't been trotted out when talking about painting a car.

GregorFuk said: av185 said: You need to be careful with silvers they can be difficult to match...... Question? Is there any colour / paint that isn't difficult to match? Regardless of colour I can't think of a single occasion where this BS statement hasn't been trotted out when talking about painting a car. Not BS. Darker the metallic the easier to match. Simples.......

av185 said: Lordglenmorangie said: Every used Porsche has had the front painted before sale Not true. Only those that need it. They all need it

Lordglenmorangie said: av185 said: Lordglenmorangie said: Every used Porsche has had the front painted before sale Not true. Only those that need it. They all need it You mean all of those sub say 1000 mile nearly new mint cars sold every year from OPCs that don t need paint but are in fact painted anyway....... Oh yes, and not forgetting the dozen or so 911s that I have bought and know for a fact they have had no paint whatsoever otherwise I would not have bought them...... :

av185 said: Lordglenmorangie said: av185 said: Lordglenmorangie said: Every used Porsche has had the front painted before sale Not true. Only those that need it. They all need it You mean all of those sub say 1000 mile nearly new mint cars sold every year from OPCs that don t need paint but are in fact painted anyway....... Oh yes, and not forgetting the dozen or so 911s that I have bought and know for a fact they have had no paint whatsoever otherwise I would not have bought them...... : Worst I have had dozens of 911s post ever

Lordglenmorangie said: av185 said: Lordglenmorangie said: av185 said: Lordglenmorangie said: Every used Porsche has had the front painted before sale Not true. Only those that need it. They all need it You mean all of those sub say 1000 mile nearly new mint cars sold every year from OPCs that don t need paint but are in fact painted anyway....... Oh yes, and not forgetting the dozen or so 911s that I have bought and know for a fact they have had no paint whatsoever otherwise I would not have bought them...... : Worst I have had dozens of 911s post ever Hardly......? Just simple proof your statement that EVERY used OPC Porsche having the front painted before sale is clearly ridiculous......

So, any paintshop recommendations? Ideally London (ish) or South West if possible...

av185 said: Not BS. Darker the metallic the easier to match. Simples....... So explain why I got the usual sucking through the teeth "difficult colour to match sir" answer when investigating the repair of a scratch to my Carbon Black BMW? Like I said it's a BS statement trotted out by default.

GregorFuk said: av185 said: Not BS. Darker the metallic the easier to match. Simples....... So explain why I got the usual sucking through the teeth "difficult colour to match sir" answer when investigating the repair of a scratch to my Carbon Black BMW? Like I said it's a BS statement trotted out by default. Do I know your paintshop(s)? Sounds like you need to vote with your feet, or should I say wheels, and find one of the many paintshops who know their onions........

av185 said: Do I know your paintshop(s)? Sounds like you need to vote with your feet, or should I say wheels, and find one of the many paintshops who know their onions........ Clearly some colours will be more difficult to match - carbon black is likely an outlier though as it changes colour depending on light / angle - inky blue to black... However I would hope a decent paintshop would take it in their stride rather than make an issue of it...

av185 said: Oh yes, and not forgetting the dozen or so 911s that I have bought and know for a fact they have had no paint whatsoever otherwise I would not have bought them...... : Didn't know you could buy a 911 without paint!

g7jhp said: av185 said: Oh yes, and not forgetting the dozen or so 911s that I have bought and know for a fact they have had no paint whatsoever otherwise I would not have bought them...... : Didn't know you could buy a 911 without paint! LOL.....a rare Porsche non cost option. :

I can speak with porsche approved Bodyshop knowledge and experience. If the vehicle has lacquer peel not caused by a stone chip, it's been painted already a paint depth gauge will tell you this. If it's more than 600 microns (from memory) then Porsche will recommend back to metal repaint. If the work is carried out a Porsche Centre Approved Bodyshop (PCABR) then the work will carry a lifetime guarantee of repair (LGOR) this is issued by Porsche GB, the vehicle will be required to have an annual inspection by the PCABR , this is free and the LGOR book is stamped. Can sometimes include a free wash and vacuum and vehicle will be put on PIWIS and a log produced. No paint manufacturer will guarantee a perfect match edge to edge, hence the need for blending into adjacent panels. The amount of lacquer applied can have a greater effect on what you see than the colour itself. If your car has been painted in, for example Spies Hecker, then the same colour code when formulated and mixed in Glasurit may not be the same. You will also find there are many variants with these colours as the paint manufactures buy pigments from different sources. So as you can see the chance of an edge to edge match is difficult. Each manufacture also produce different types of lacquer or clear-coat which can further complicate the issue. When a body shop has a lot of experience with a particular brand eg Porsche they will have a far better idea of what is achievable. But they won't know what your car has been painted in after it has left the factory and been painted by another body shop. Silver can be a hard colour to blend as can some of the more pearlescent dark colours eg mercedes. The standard set out by Porsche GB, for used car preparation for sale is very high and exacting. In my experience you would be very lucky to find one that hasn't had a front end paint due to chips etc. Again if the car has had a body repair if done by a PCABR it should be near impossible to tell only a paint depth gauge should give the game away. I hope this helps with your decision Edited by otp on Saturday 4th January 11:27

otp said: I can speak with porsche approved Bodyshop knowledge and experience. If the vehicle has lacquer peel not caused by a stone chip, it's been painted already a paint depth gauge will tell you this. If it's more than 600 microns (from memory) then Porsche will recommend back to metal repaint. If the work is carried out a Porsche Centre Approved Bodyshop (PCABR) then the work will carry a lifetime guarantee of repair (LGOR) this is issued by Porsche GB, the vehicle will be required to have an annual inspection by the PCABR , this is free and the LGOR book is stamped. Can sometimes include a free wash and vacuum and vehicle will be put on PIWIS and a log produced. No paint manufacturer will guarantee a perfect match edge to edge, hence the need for blending into adjacent panels. The amount of lacquer applied can have a greater effect on what you see than the colour itself. If your car has been painted in, for example Spies Hecker, then the same colour code when formulated and mixed in Glasurit may not be the same. You will also find there are many variants with these colours as the paint manufactures buy pigments from different sources. So as you can see the chance of an edge to edge match is difficult. Each manufacture also produce different types of lacquer or clear-coat which can further complicate the issue. When a body shop has a lot of experience with a particular brand eg Porsche they will have a far better idea of what is achievable. But they won't know what your car has been painted in after it has left the factory and been painted by another body shop. Silver can be a hard colour to blend as can some of the more pearlescent dark colours eg mercedes. The standard set out by Porsche GB, for used car preparation for sale is very high and exacting. In my experience you would be very lucky to find one that hasn't had a front end paint due to chips etc. Again if the car has had a body repair if done by a PCABR it should be near impossible to tell only a paint depth gauge should give the game away. I hope this helps with your decision I rest my case quote ( in my experience you would be lucky to one that hasn't had a front end paint job ) Edited by otp on Saturday 4th January 11:27

Lordglenmorangie said: otp said: I can speak with porsche approved Bodyshop knowledge and experience. If the vehicle has lacquer peel not caused by a stone chip, it's been painted already a paint depth gauge will tell you this. If it's more than 600 microns (from memory) then Porsche will recommend back to metal repaint. If the work is carried out a Porsche Centre Approved Bodyshop (PCABR) then the work will carry a lifetime guarantee of repair (LGOR) this is issued by Porsche GB, the vehicle will be required to have an annual inspection by the PCABR , this is free and the LGOR book is stamped. Can sometimes include a free wash and vacuum and vehicle will be put on PIWIS and a log produced. No paint manufacturer will guarantee a perfect match edge to edge, hence the need for blending into adjacent panels. The amount of lacquer applied can have a greater effect on what you see than the colour itself. If your car has been painted in, for example Spies Hecker, then the same colour code when formulated and mixed in Glasurit may not be the same. You will also find there are many variants with these colours as the paint manufactures buy pigments from different sources. So as you can see the chance of an edge to edge match is difficult. Each manufacture also produce different types of lacquer or clear-coat which can further complicate the issue. When a body shop has a lot of experience with a particular brand eg Porsche they will have a far better idea of what is achievable. But they won't know what your car has been painted in after it has left the factory and been painted by another body shop. Silver can be a hard colour to blend as can some of the more pearlescent dark colours eg mercedes. The standard set out by Porsche GB, for used car preparation for sale is very high and exacting. In my experience you would be very lucky to find one that hasn't had a front end paint due to chips etc. Again if the car has had a body repair if done by a PCABR it should be near impossible to tell only a paint depth gauge should give the game away. I hope this helps with your decision I rest my case quote ( in my experience you would be lucky to one that hasn't had a front end paint job ) who could argue with poster experience . Edited by otp on Saturday 4th January 11:27

otp said: I can speak with porsche approved Bodyshop knowledge and experience. If the vehicle has lacquer peel not caused by a stone chip, it's been painted already a paint depth gauge will tell you this. If it's more than 600 microns (from memory) then Porsche will recommend back to metal repaint. If the work is carried out a Porsche Centre Approved Bodyshop (PCABR) then the work will carry a lifetime guarantee of repair (LGOR) this is issued by Porsche GB, the vehicle will be required to have an annual inspection by the PCABR , this is free and the LGOR book is stamped. Can sometimes include a free wash and vacuum and vehicle will be put on PIWIS and a log produced. No paint manufacturer will guarantee a perfect match edge to edge, hence the need for blending into adjacent panels. The amount of lacquer applied can have a greater effect on what you see than the colour itself. If your car has been painted in, for example Spies Hecker, then the same colour code when formulated and mixed in Glasurit may not be the same. You will also find there are many variants with these colours as the paint manufactures buy pigments from different sources. So as you can see the chance of an edge to edge match is difficult. Each manufacture also produce different types of lacquer or clear-coat which can further complicate the issue. When a body shop has a lot of experience with a particular brand eg Porsche they will have a far better idea of what is achievable. But they won't know what your car has been painted in after it has left the factory and been painted by another body shop. Silver can be a hard colour to blend as can some of the more pearlescent dark colours eg mercedes. The standard set out by Porsche GB, for used car preparation for sale is very high and exacting. In my experience you would be very lucky to find one that hasn't had a front end paint due to chips etc. Again if the car has had a body repair if done by a PCABR it should be near impossible to tell only a paint depth gauge should give the game away. I hope this helps with your decision Edited by otp on Saturday 4th January 11:27 Great post

Thank you

r4_rick said: otp said: I can speak with porsche approved Bodyshop knowledge and experience. If the vehicle has lacquer peel not caused by a stone chip, it's been painted already a paint depth gauge will tell you this. If it's more than 600 microns (from memory) then Porsche will recommend back to metal repaint. If the work is carried out a Porsche Centre Approved Bodyshop (PCABR) then the work will carry a lifetime guarantee of repair (LGOR) this is issued by Porsche GB, the vehicle will be required to have an annual inspection by the PCABR , this is free and the LGOR book is stamped. Can sometimes include a free wash and vacuum and vehicle will be put on PIWIS and a log produced. No paint manufacturer will guarantee a perfect match edge to edge, hence the need for blending into adjacent panels. The amount of lacquer applied can have a greater effect on what you see than the colour itself. If your car has been painted in, for example Spies Hecker, then the same colour code when formulated and mixed in Glasurit may not be the same. You will also find there are many variants with these colours as the paint manufactures buy pigments from different sources. So as you can see the chance of an edge to edge match is difficult. Each manufacture also produce different types of lacquer or clear-coat which can further complicate the issue. When a body shop has a lot of experience with a particular brand eg Porsche they will have a far better idea of what is achievable. But they won't know what your car has been painted in after it has left the factory and been painted by another body shop. Silver can be a hard colour to blend as can some of the more pearlescent dark colours eg mercedes. The standard set out by Porsche GB, for used car preparation for sale is very high and exacting. In my experience you would be very lucky to find one that hasn't had a front end paint due to chips etc. Again if the car has had a body repair if done by a PCABR it should be near impossible to tell only a paint depth gauge should give the game away. I hope this helps with your decision Edited by otp on Saturday 4th January 11:27 Great post +1

Hey OTP, Thank-you very much for your reply. This was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for and is very very helpful. Part of your reply is very interesting. The car in question was bought through Porsche. Given the age of the vehicle and the likelihood of stone chips I would agree that there's a very high chance some paintwork was required to meet the standards and sell the car on. Considering that Porsche would have had this done, presumably by a PCABR, should I have received something from the OPC when I bought the car? Also, for the stone chips and/or lacquer peel, will any repair work be covered by the Lifetime Guarantee of Repair? If so, what does this Lifetime Guarantee of Repair really mean? Also, what would you expect the cost to be for a full respray? Really appreciate your help. otp said: I can speak with Porsche approved bodyshop knowledge and experience. If the vehicle has lacquer peel not caused by a stone chip, it's been painted already a paint depth gauge will tell you this. If it's more than 600 microns (from memory) then Porsche will recommend back to metal repaint. If the work is carried out a Porsche Centre Approved Bodyshop (PCABR) then the work will carry a lifetime guarantee of repair (LGOR) this is issued by Porsche GB, the vehicle will be required to have an annual inspection by the PCABR, this is free and the LGOR book is stamped. Can sometimes include a free wash and vacuum and vehicle will be put on PIWIS and a log produced. No paint manufacturer will guarantee a perfect match edge to edge, hence the need for blending into adjacent panels. The amount of lacquer applied can have a greater effect on what you see than the colour itself. If your car has been painted in, for example Spies Hecker, then the same colour code when formulated and mixed in Glasurit may not be the same. You will also find there are many variants with these colours as the paint manufactures buy pigments from different sources. So as you can see the chance of an edge to edge match is difficult. Each manufacturer also produces different types of lacquer or clear-coat which can further complicate the issue. When a body shop has a lot of experience with a particular brand, e.g. Porsche, they will have a far better idea of what is achievable. But they won't know what your car has been painted in after it has left the factory and been painted by another bodyshop. Silver can be a hard colour to blend as can some of the more pearlescent dark colours eg mercedes. The standard set out by Porsche GB for used car preparation for sale is very high and exacting. In my experience you would be very lucky to find one that hasn't had a front end paint due to chips, etc... Again if the car has had a body repair if done by a PCABR it should be near impossible to tell only a paint depth gauge should give the game away. I hope this helps with your decision.

Hi I'm glad the information was helpful. I have to be careful not to manoeuvre myself into a possible legal corner. The OPC does not get involved in the issue of an LGOR, The LGOR is really for accident damage as opposed to cosmetic repairs. The cost of the LGOR is borne by the PCABR. The LGOR is a warranty against defects on the repaired panels. Any defect caused by an outside influence ie stone chips would not be covered. A defect caused by workmanship would be covered. I've seen many cars at shows that I'm sure looked fantastic when they were done but a year or so later become very obvious. I went to the classic car show recently and was staggered by the state of the vehicles, dirt nibs, shrinkage, silicones, chips painted over, too much product, dry edges and one which was being shown as an example of their work had had its wing polished through. In my experience clear coat does not peel off without a chip or being blown off by a pressure washer after a chip. I have seen base coat and clear coat come off when a new part hasn't been keyed correctly or the wrong primer used. The cost of a good repaint will depend on the current condition of the vehicle and any repairs that need doing for instance the front bumper can take 5 hours of prep on its own to get ready for paint. It would also depend on the amount on parts removed or masked up, glass out etc. the area you are in and the type of material (paint) being used. I would expect between 40 to 50 hours labour and around £1200 in paint and materials plus stone foils, rivets, clips, bonding kits and badges etc. the labour hours would be at which every body repair centre you chose , their hourly rate. I've never been a fan of just painting panels because you can. I would only paint what needs doing, the more product added to a panel the finish starts to go away, not so noticeable on silver but it can be seen. Also any used car inspection that is done , if the guy does a paint depth check it will show the whole car has been painted and may raise questions as to why, what's been repaired or what's being hidden, possible masking edges in shuts etc As I said at the beginning I can't get involved in any disputes with OPCs etc. Hope this helps with your decision Edit Just read your original post again I had forgotten it was a cab that would lower cost of both labour and paint. Labour I would expect to be lowered by between 6 to 10 hours and paint by around £150 Edited by otp on Saturday 11th January 22:51

Hey OTP, Thank-you very much for another very helpful reply. I'm certainly not planning to take any legal action. I might've played things differently with the OPC had I known about LGOR but even if I had known about it... it's spilt milk under the bridge now. Understand that the LGOR and any other similar guarantee of repair is more for accident damage or poor workmanship, not for stone chips or negligence. I think what's happened in my case is a bad combination of stone chips and pressure washing. Difficult to stop stone chips in the future; much easier to stop using a pressure washer. Given your comments here, some of the comments in the thread and what I've read elsewhere I'm also coming to understand that it's best to avoid doing any work unnecessarily. I'll go for having the damaged panels resprayed and won't use a pressure washer in the future. Also worth mentioning that a bodyshop in the South West advised me on Friday the the Porsche Lifetime Guarantee of Repair was stopped, for all cars, in January 2013. Not quite sure what to believe as Porsche UK mention it on their site (this page: http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/ow... Will call a few OPCs and see what they say. Either way... really appreciate your help. Not looking forward to spending the cash but the chips/peeling is driving me nuts.

Glad to be of assistance, I will also check on the status of LGOR. I know the PCABR network is being scaled down at the moment. The only successful way to stop the chips is with the various stone foil companies about. It seems expensive until you find out the cost of repairs .