sporttechnischer leitfaden - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

As a hi to many that posted on an older thread (ade pointed me to it), I had some time tonight and thought i would offer atleast something in return and post some pics. And I hate posting pics. Nothing too stunning in the photo dept, just some hipstamatic filtered phone dumps but maybe it will break up the monotony. Its truly a shame that some of us dont live closer enabling the sharing of a local pub. Some of you know ive been slowly building a little cheater hot rod. No rules restrictions for this one and its going on the road too. I want to get back to just firing something up and getting out there when I feel like it. I sense thats where everyone shifting back into aircooleds from 997s instead of going forward is coming from too, but thats just a guess. It might just be smelling of petrol though, if so i am covered just fine here too. Its all from the porsche parts lists (just maybe not parts lists that most get to see) so its really in the spirit of what Porsche used to be about when they would embrace and encourage this behaviour. If you get what that was, or are just prone to nostalgia this car will probably tickle you. I know most wont get any of that but thats ok too. Its a watershed moment once again, just try to remember when you look back, a few of those being left behind might just be swimming in the other direction. We dont all need your pity. Engine went into the car a couple of months ago but I have literally had zero time to follow it up with more work. if you like looking at engines, hopefully this will give you an enjoyable few seconds away from the usual posts. If you are used to looking at these things you might get several seconds extra fun. If you want me to tell you whats roughly going on with it let me know and I will share a little bit of info. The box is a regular 2005 spec 6Cup piece. Freshly rebuilt but totally stock. Insides are a bit different from the street box, the diff is a monster and gear ratios are very different. Some of you might notice the oil supply is filtered and theres no plastic crap on the heat exchanger. Its solid mounted too. If you think those Cup cables give you in cabin noises, give this a whirl. Ive also thrown in a couple of cabin snaps since i had them. Might give folks a smile if nothing else.

Looks fantastic Neil. Keep the pictures coming. What type of events are you planning on using it in?

4.0 cup engine in a 996?

Great to see you back, your post is a refreshing insight, keep it coming!!!

Fantastic.

...this is what it's all about - merry bloody xmas !!!

Dear Boy! Looks similar to the view I remember from a 996 cup but with Motec (?) dash and no doubt a great big hairy arsed engine! This chap looks like a lot of fun as does the setup conundrum! Does one take a little camber off the rear to help deploy the humongous torque that ( knowing you ) the engine has and risk oversteer city or do you go optimum and draw from the skill cabinet?? Thank you for posting Old Thing. You are in danger of making this forum interesting again. But prey tell, how will you possibly be able to drive such a vehicle whilst using your arms, legs, arse and your brain all at the same time?? Surely it is impossible???

Great to hear from you again, looks like you have been quite busy too! Your hot rod build is looking good, wish I had the time/skills/patience/money/intelligence to build one Maybe there should be another separate sub-forum in the Porsche section for major modifications like in the TVR section. @ hipstamatic

Now this is what PH is for BUT how many owners has it had? Did you get the DME checked before buying the engine? Have you had a low temp thermostat fitted? Your warranty will be void. And what about depreciation? Merry Christmas

Steve Rance said: Dear Boy! Looks similar to the view I remember from a 996 cup but with Motec (?) dash and no doubt a great big hairy arsed engine! This chap looks like a lot of fun as does the setup conundrum! Does one take a little camber off the rear to help deploy the humongous torque that ( knowing you ) the engine has and risk oversteer city or do you go optimum and draw from the skill cabinet?? Thank you for posting Old Thing. You are in danger of making this forum interesting again. But prey tell, how will you possibly be able to drive such a vehicle whilst using your arms, legs, arse and your brain all at the same time?? Surely it is impossible??? hahaha, The secret to reaching equilibrium on the first paragraph is to be very much slower than you are Mr Rance. Then your compromises are all sorted by the natural order of things. Thats actually a topical point raising though regarding setup, I have work to do there for sure. Its currently over 4 deg neg camber front and back and looking at that and some PS2s one can see immediate problems right? Add on a total rubber free ride (the entire car, subframe, engine, gearbox, joints etc etc are solid mounted) and theres a need to get it corrected in short order. Excitement overpowered common sense and I drove it round the estate (industrial, not country sadly) when it first ran. No setup at all and each wheel toeing in a different direction. Never again. Test runs are cancelled until at least a starting point is set so thats first point of order when I next pick up tools. Second is to remove the lock stops on the RSR steering rack. I left them on confidently after conducting some very scientific road situation avoidance tests (I drove round some trucks in a paddock) and passing with flying colours. Apparently they were less to scale than I first thought. I had to do a multi point turn just to get round some less than obscene corners. Horror inducing when you are wearing L plates, abject mortification when you are in a bewinged brute running a 110db exhaust with a 1500 rpm idle and belching smoke as the assembly lube burns off the engine. Subtle it was not. LOL at the last part. No kidding huh. Did you notice the lack of vacuum line on the intake plenum? No booster and no ABS for me. And a real cable on the throttle pedal. My dash has GPS installed though along with a bunch of data logging so its not quite the stoneage express.

Its 3.6, I like that engine for the 996 (and that engine in general) though its not a run of the mill 3.6 Cup engine thats for sure. Even the engine case is a bit special. The car isnt built to run for any events. This is just my, screw it, I will build what I wish porsche would project and chance to build what I always felt would be a fantastic car. There was a time not so long ago when they would have given you a whole bunch of support to do this sort of thing. The will evaporated a while back (before I ever had a porsche) but the way was still there even with the 997. Now theres neither. There was always so many ideas or improvements that were just crying to be brought onboard in almost every area of the car but regs limitations on the race cars mean you cant ever do anything. Free from those shackles meant I could just build the best (in my mind) damn car. Im going to drive it on the road when i fancy a blast, take my kid out in it, hopefully do some trackdays with friends etc. The friends part being more important than the track part. Without people its just going round in circles. I sense a nice trip up the west coast as part of a convoy coming in my future too. The only slightly odd thing just now is that its existed as a concept/idea/work in progress for so long that I am struggling to change its function back into an actual car now its moving under its own power again. Im sure the arrival of spring will help. Ive not settled on a final decision for the interior side yet though. It has a 1967 911R vibe going on just now that I will suck and see once I get using it properly. Its a bit more homely than a regular Cup but not a lot more. I may find I need to dial in back a touch yet in that regard. Technical decisions are always easy, aesthetic ones much less so and interior is very much the latter. Its probably hovering right around 1100kg total weight at the moment though so thats adding to the leave it as it is feeling. Edited by fioran0 on Monday 23 December 02:44

drmark said: Now this is what PH is for BUT how many owners has it had? Did you get the DME checked before buying the engine? Have you had a low temp thermostat fitted? Your warranty will be void. And what about depreciation? Merry Christmas Dont worry, I have all that covered. I know the rules!!!!! Max RPM stored in the ecu- 9370. Thats type 1 right? warrantable? Low temp thermostat- bizarrely yes (go figure). hmmm, things get less clear after that. I shall get my coat. Merry Christmas to you too. Edited by fioran0 on Monday 23 December 02:46

fioran0 said: Dont worry, I have all that covered. I know the rules!!!!! Max RPM stored in the ecu- 9370. Thats type 1 right? warrantable? Low temp thermostat- bizarrely yes (go figure). hmmm, things get less clear after that. I shall get my coat. Merry Christmas to you too. Edited by fioran0 on Monday 23 December 02:46 Enjoy - you lucky b d!

Great stuff! Makes a refreshing change to read about a properly technical and truly exiting project from somebody so hands on. Keep us all posted, and all the best for Xmas and new year.

Now this is a 'Thread'! Keep the detail and pics coming!

Great thread fioran0, I hope to convert my GT3 into sort of a road-going cup car spec one day, so will keep an eye on this thread with interest

Yes, this is interesting stuff..

terryb said: Great thread fioran0, I hope to convert my GT3 into sort of a road-going cup car spec one day, so will keep an eye on this thread with interest Just saw the car on your profile. Very nice. You're not far off a Cup.

Very nice. So, tell us a bit more about the chassis setup :-) And how does the sequential box cope with road use? Do the downshifts get messed up if you change gear at less than 6krpm?

Harris_I said: terryb said: Great thread fioran0, I hope to convert my GT3 into sort of a road-going cup car spec one day, so will keep an eye on this thread with interest Just saw the car on your profile. Very nice. You're not far off a Cup. Lol, thanks, it's about the experience for me, so would like to strip the interior and have it painted white along with neat wiring loom, full cage, etc. it's already madly fast, so making the experience "feel" faster with more engine/ road noise and an internal race car look is on the cards next

Good to see you back round these parst Neil, you and others have been missed. Car looks every bit as good as Ade said would be. Hope your Christmas was good.

DrMark, It should be a lot of fun thats for sure. I let a friend borrow my ECU to run in his RSR while he was waiting on a replacement. Porsche reflashed it back to my software afterwards but didnt reset the user data. That was what max stored RPM was reading before I cleared it and cycle checked all the sensors etc with Modas. Arcamalpha, thats a regular H pattern shifter box still. The sequential is great moving fast, not so much pottering about. The sequential is necessary in the 997, the car is turned up much much more and once you are over the learning curve it makes things much better as a driver. The 996 doesnt need it and it doesnt fit with the car from a driving perspective imho. Terry, The one thing the aircooled cars have over the watercooled cars when stripping is the lack of cabin loom. It can look really tidy in the air cooled cars in a way it cannot in the watercooled versions. Even with the cup wiring looms and ecu (so easily half the wiring) its is much cleaner but still present in a way that cannot be disguised. The rear cabin is just criss crossed with ducting etc. The street cars have the ecus etc on that panel in the rear cabin too which increases the issue further for them, plus a lot of systems that you cannot remove. I always think the old cars look really nice when empty inside but the aesthetic doesnt carry over directly to the later cars.

Slippydiff said: Good to see you back round these parst Neil, you and others have been missed. Car looks every bit as good as Ade said would be. Hope your Christmas was good. Thanks, yeah Christmas was good thanks. What about you?

I dont know what people want to know but since arcamalpha asked about the chassis setup I will type up a bit more on that. The body shell has had quite a few changes done to it, some obvious some less so. Most are taken from changes applied on later 997 Cup cars or the RSR. Amongst other things it is now stronger and stiffer than the regular shell (in terms of flex and wear), infact it is stiffer as a bare shell (without cage) than a regular 6Cup with cage and engine/gearbox. Its cage free at the moment until I settle on a final interior spec though I expect I will end up welding in half the cage from a 997 Cup. I dont want door bars (entry and exit is a royal pain) and the roof bar with both the 996 and 997 cage designs is too close to my head to feel comfortable without a helmet on. I have street doors on (so locks and windows) and the Cup doors are boxed up. These arent safe for use without door bars/full cage which I dont want whilst I wanted locks and windows that work since I want to drive this around semi normally. There are RSR carbon fiber mirrors fitted to the doors while the bonnet, rear bumper, rear deck lid, rear spoiler, rear gurney and wing endplates are all carbon fiber too. Windows are all regular lexan Cup windows except the door windows (obviously) while the windscreen is from an RSR and heated element. Theres no heating in the car so this is a must for controlling fogging given my plans for use. In general the bodywork is just that of the the final 996 Cup revision (2005MY). Again theres some changes been made to this to update things or take advantage of being rule free. 2010 Cup type uprights being the most obvious one. The rear suspension uses 996 RSR rear sub frames with custom made mountings (to improve the factory ones). 996 RSR lower 2 piece control arms (so solid adjustable caster pucks and solid joints). ERP adjustable dog bones with solid joints, adjustable rear toe arms (again solid joints), stock 996 Cup rear wheel carriers, hubs, hardware etc, 2010 997 Cup brake ducts (with naca duct feed from the floor pan), Brembo floating rotors (proper brembo racing products, so the same stuff used at le mans etc) and stock 996 Cup rear callipers. The entire back end is locked down. All adjustment is done via threaded rods on controls arms rather than pinch bolts. The front has a 996 Cup front subframe, 2010 997 Cup/RSR front 2 piece control arms (again solid adjustable caster pucks and solid joints), stock 996 Cup uprights, hubs hardware etc and again Brembo racing floating rotors with stock 996 Cup callipers using Porsche Motorsport sprint pads. Regular 996 Cup brake ducts (upper and lower) and some improved cooling added to increase airflow. It also has an RSR steering rack and 2010 997 Cup electric power steering pump with custom made stainless steel braided hoses. The rack is about 20% quicker than a regular street rack. The entire suspension is solid mounted as are the engine and gearbox to the chassis. Wheels are stock 996 Cup BBS alloys, 9J and 11J x 18, Suspension is stock 2005 996 Cup sachs shocks but running a custom spring setup similar to that used at Sebring (bumpy). Main springs are 140N/mm and 180N/mm. The interior is running a customised 996 Cup front cabin loom (to allow doors and windows to work plus to integrate more circuit control, i designed, drew and made the loom myself), the other looms are stock 2005 996 Cup. ECU is a stock 2005 996 Cup bosch motorsport ECU. The central control panel has more control as per the 997 Cup and was custom designed and manufactured for the car (i drew it on cad and had it made). Main display is the regular 2005 996 Cup dash (so mk1 996 style with a few features removed, km readings and no red line/ no GT3 logo) but the car is also using a digital dash/data logger. Regular 996 Cup clutch and brake pedal, 997 Cup throttle pedal. In cabin adjustable brake bias (car is running a 997 Cup brake setup with dual master cylinders, no ABS, no brake booster). Edited by fioran0 on Friday 27th December 21:29

Fantastic! Thanks :-) Love the fact that parts from different generations can work together so nicely. Sounds like it will be a great machine. Wish I had the skills and resources to build something similar. I love the idea of a fully stripped out road-legal track car.

fioran0 said: parts list to die for Awesome project Neil. You have access to some fantastic components and you're just the man to screw them all together. Can't wait to see it done.

This is a lovely project taking the best bits from the 996 and 997 Cup and RSR race cars. The electric steering and adjustable brake bias from the 997 are a must for the real driver. Brilliant call on these. Even more of a set up quandary as road rubber will want to lock up a lot earlier than slicks. How will you resist the temptation to run low front camber to compensate? Absolutely lovely project.

Whats the reason for using a 2010 electrically assisted rack?

Nice weight saving

Fair enough. Not much effect on steering feel then?

Nope

Not the same system as the 991

Steve Rance said: Not the same system as the 991 Ok got it. Keep the pics and details coming fiorano, and apologies for any naive questions!

mollytherocker said: Whats the reason for using a 2010 electrically assisted rack? Its only the pump thats electric (instead of engine aux belt driven). Its still a hydraulic rack. Theres several benefits but I always think the main one is fire risk reduction. Theres no hydraulic lines running the length of the car and across the engine bay with the electric pump. Its mounted up front with a couple of short runs to the rack (i am using better quality lines on mine) and so removes all those headaches. I much prefer the electric pump over the engine mounted unit on the grounds that its a compact installation, moves weight towards the front and can be swapped in and out without any hassles if need be. Its a much better engineering solution if you can live with it being in your boot space. It also sounds cool and gives you an extra switch to turn on before you can drive the car The RSR rack is faster than the regular rack as I already mentioned. It also has a better feel I think (though they all feel good). Theres almost zero difference in steering effort with the pump running or not on the RSR one.

Steve Rance said: This is a lovely project taking the best bits from the 996 and 997 Cup and RSR race cars. The electric steering and adjustable brake bias from the 997 are a must for the real driver. Brilliant call on these. Even more of a set up quandary as road rubber will want to lock up a lot earlier than slicks. How will you resist the temptation to run low front camber to compensate? Absolutely lovely project. Thanks. No kidding on the brakes. My wheel carriers front and rear are actually studded for the 380mm/350mm brake setup and it was tempting to run the bigger brake callipers using these sizes for simple pron value BUT you are on the money regarding lock up. Its too much brake with those sizes (and a ton of extra weight too) especially when using road rubber and the lower down force levels on the 996 hence the reason I have stuck with the regular 350mm/330mm setup. Im running the grand-am master cylinder sizes (rather than the factory delivered masters on the regular 7Cup) so have a touch more pedal length (but still the same general wooden sensation). I like this setup on slicks and it should work better on road rubber but all of that side is a work in progress thats for sure. There may be some fine tuning come the spring! I plan on setting camber to where it drives best and then learn to brake better..... or less if needed

arcamalpha said: Love the fact that parts from different generations can work together so nicely. Yeah, Steve will have more info on this perhaps (given his blue car etc) but thats really how it seems like it used to be with Porsche. You could pretty much move parts around any cars on the old 911s to make whatever you like. I guess thats what the urban outlaw stuff is about in a way too. You started with a certain car but it didnt have to stay that way if you wanted it to be different. What really set Porsche apart was that you didnt have to go out with the family to achieve it. Its incredible just how much of this still remains in the 996 and 997 models. Its still very much an evolution and the opportunity to make yourself a car just as you want is still there. The trick of course is to know just what bits can move around, what else needs to follow for it to work and the reason for swapping in the first place. Im very fortunate having sat on the race side. Bits are always wearing out and everyone is always looking at how to make things better or if the new cars address anything. Its not always a part that seems exciting of course but there are always things to make the car better in some way.

This sounds an absolute dream car. You have got most of the advantages of a competition set up but with out the hassles of a full cage, sliding side windows, etc. I hope I come across you at a track day sometime as I would love to see this in action.

Just brilliant Neil and good to see you back on here. A more modern day equivalant of Steve's 993 and my own 3.2SSE. Just love it What sort of life span on components, or is this not so much of an issue as it will not be used hard all of the time.

Neil, out of interest, what base car did you start with?

Thanks, Glad its of interest to atleast some. Graeme, I am supremely jealous of anyone running stripped out older cars. The interiors always look sublime when done right and you get so much lightness on top. Theres too much clutter in the later cars that cannot be done away with. Its my one grumble. Do you still have a bare interior? What have you done about the floor covering? Ive provisionally made some rubber flooring ala the 911R. It looks ok but there something nice about an expanse of metal. My race cars always end up a pain with bare flooring with dirt and gravel etc and I have to assume its endlessly worse for something that is used on the road hence my rubber install. If you are still bare I'd really like to hear how you find it. Same for you Steve, you use yours on the road too right? Did you just fling in floor mats or are you both ballers and issue special footwear upon entry? Parts life will be more or less as per a regular 996 GT3, though some bits of course will need checked on more frequently. Not using it racing stretches the time line out massively. Even race cars that are just club raced see their life extend by a serious measure by dropping down to this less stressful environment as I am sure you can imagine. Terry, the base car was my old 2004 996 Cup. I had an off and the shell was toast. I started on the well trodden path of reshelling (or filling up the spares truck) when I decided that I'd just use the opportunity to change up to a 997 cup and build something interesting instead with the 996 Cup instead. Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 29th December 03:07

Hi Neil, Car looks ace. Really glad you decided to start the thread on it. Couple of questions: Have you fitted a handbrake? And how do you go about making something like this road legal? Will it need to be registered as a kit car? Jack

Nice, you'll be ready for Pikes Peak with that rear wing

Some more pics courtesy of cheeper van (and photography) hire Theres nothing like a set of photographs to make you realise you need to get your finger out and get the ride height and alignment sorted out. Or get out a bucket and sponge. Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 29th December 10:43

I'm also interested to hear how you'll get this road legal. I went the other way (road GT3 with Cup parts, down to 1200kg or so, and then back to road again) and getting it registered in the UK took me 5 months. Was a huge ball ache. Although I put the carpets and console back in, the lack of plastic wheelarch liners seems to be the primary cause of cabin noise, like a bag of gravel in a washing machine. Strangely enough I don't find solid bushes too much of a problem - the camber is far more of an issue on the road.

fioran0 said: Its only the pump thats electric (instead of engine aux belt driven). Its still a hydraulic rack. Theres several benefits but I always think the main one is fire risk reduction. Theres no hydraulic lines running the length of the car and across the engine bay with the electric pump. Its mounted up front with a couple of short runs to the rack (i am using better quality lines on mine) and so removes all those headaches. I much prefer the electric pump over the engine mounted unit on the grounds that its a compact installation, moves weight towards the front and can be swapped in and out without any hassles if need be. Its a much better engineering solution if you can live with it being in your boot space. It also sounds cool and gives you an extra switch to turn on before you can drive the car The RSR rack is faster than the regular rack as I already mentioned. It also has a better feel I think (though they all feel good). Theres almost zero difference in steering effort with the pump running or not on the RSR one. That's very interesting info, thanks! I was under impression that RSR's and even GT3's had same steering racks(ratios) I have been thinking using the RSR's electric pump in (also) street driven GT3. I wonder how long the pump would last in a car that gets run say 6000 miles a year? That's lot more hours than any race car? Does the pump make loud noise when it's running? I wouldn't think it can be heard when driving?

[url] |http://thumbsnap.com/6yyDV3Uq[/url] Hi Neil. Ignore the location of the harness belt. Silly boys did not think to use the harness bars on the cage. Currently I still run it with a bare floor. In relative terms it has done very little road miles so it has not been an issue. Although over the years I've always run them this way. Just need to keep it clean. It is in with a mate for some more fettling and should be back with me by the end of Jan. The centre console is going as I can't use the foot rest which is a shame as I wanted to keep some references to a road car. RS style door cars with a basic radio and door speakers. Electric windows remain. Need to do a couple of test days to get me and the car up to speed.

Still looks great Graeme! Are you racing this then or just track days? Speaking of Cheeper van hire, where is Ade lately? Not seen him on here for a while.

Yes to the handbrake. The only way it will need registered as a "kit" is if I change my name to Michael Knight and it starts talking. Why no wheel liners? Did you have to take them out to fit race rubber or did they just get chewed up and binned? When you say solid bushes do you mean suspension? If so then I agree. Ive never had any problems in GT3s etc on the road with them. I dont find ride much changed at all if I am honest in terms of compliance, though the car feels a million miles better as a result of their install. The solid gearbox mount is the main source of my cabin noise. It creates a direct sound bridge with the shell. Add in the Cup gearbox, flywheel and my clutch setup and the noise at idle is seriously loud. I have lexan windows (the 1/4s are vented too), zero sound deadening, a 110db supercup exhaust and an engine thats no shrinking violet. At idle, even with the doors open I literally cannot hear the exhaust or engine above the rattling transmitted inside. The shell is also significantly stiffer than a stock GT3 shell so amplifies a touch more as a result. On throttle and moving this noise recedes somewhat but theres still decent whine and clanking given theres literally zero give anywhere. Even the lightweight driveshafts add to the aural input. None of this is news of course, I will freely admit to quite liking it and its not like I havent been around it plenty but my helmet is usually on for long drives so muffles things. Earplugs are the solution of course but it would be nice to not need them.

JarmoL said: That's very interesting info, thanks! I was under impression that RSR's and even GT3's had same steering racks(ratios) I have been thinking using the RSR's electric pump in (also) street driven GT3. I wonder how long the pump would last in a car that gets run say 6000 miles a year? That's lot more hours than any race car? Does the pump make loud noise when it's running? I wouldn't think it can be heard when driving? The 996 GT3 uses the exact same rack as the C2, boxster etc. Same with the 997 GT3. There are several options for the motorsport cars. The pump should be fine, theres electric pumps being used in an array of regular production every day cars (or were at least before the switch to cheaper electric motors) without a need for annual replacement. Porsche dont use the pumps on street cars though so its not a cheap upgrade. Its over £2000 for the pump, two hoses and a couple of adaptors if you buy new. You also need the engine and gearbox out to remove the old lines. The pump can definitely be heard with it running and when driven. How intrusive will of course depend on how loud your car is and how much interior you have to muffle it out.

Thanks Graeme. Looks super clean, as I said, supremely jealous Thats interesting ref the bare floors. I have wooden floor boards down anyways but just figured it would get scratched up and messy in short order without something else in there. Even the race cars start to look tatty in a relatively short time. I will run with my rubber flooring since its down and gauge how messy it gets as a way to feel whether it can be removed without headaches. I feel you on the centre console, its nice to have somewhere to stick things thats for sure. I couldnt run one if i wanted the shifter up on stilts so didnt have much option there. It can make things look a little more civilised by having it though.

marky911 said: Speaking of Cheeper van hire, where is Ade lately? Not seen him on here for a while. Same place a whole bunch of others are. Off doing other things in the non virtual world and only occasionally checking in just to see if theres a chat going on that they feel like engaging with. Its a bit..... folks out in their underpants shouting at the wind in here. I assume the only appeal is the chance to chinwag with a few others one doesnt have the luxury of seeing in person regularly. Thats where I am atleast. If I lived closer to people I would just get them down the pub of an evening instead. Edited by fioran0 on Monday 30th December 02:12

fioran0 said: Thanks, Glad its of interest to atleast some. Graeme, I am supremely jealous of anyone running stripped out older cars. The interiors always look sublime when done right and you get so much lightness on top. Theres too much clutter in the later cars that cannot be done away with. Its my one grumble. Do you still have a bare interior? What have you done about the floor covering? Ive provisionally made some rubber flooring ala the 911R. It looks ok but there something nice about an expanse of metal. My race cars always end up a pain with bare flooring with dirt and gravel etc and I have to assume its endlessly worse for something that is used on the road hence my rubber install. If you are still bare I'd really like to hear how you find it. Same for you Steve, you use yours on the road too right? Did you just fling in floor mats or are you both ballers and issue special footwear upon entry? Parts life will be more or less as per a regular 996 GT3, though some bits of course will need checked on more frequently. Not using it racing stretches the time line out massively. Even race cars that are just club raced see their life extend by a serious measure by dropping down to this less stressful environment as I am sure you can imagine. Terry, the base car was my old 2004 996 Cup. I had an off and the shell was toast. I started on the well trodden path of reshelling (or filling up the spares truck) when I decided that I'd just use the opportunity to change up to a 997 cup and build something interesting instead with the 996 Cup instead. Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 29th December 03:07 Neil I have the original wooden floor plates. To be honest they are fine but best if you wear reasonably grippy footwear. I do skulk about on the road quite happily but the harnesses and race seats sometimes make exiting junctions a bit difficult. Like your car, mine has a solid mounted box so earplugs are also useful. My biggest problem is set up as its cheaper to run the car on slicks at track days so thats the primary set up objective. This leads to a few lock up problems on the road. I did look at an adjustable bias set up - which I much prefer - but it the car wouldn't then be correct in spec. My half way measure solution was a motorsport ABS unit which works well on the road and circuit. With an adjustable bias, you can just run more rear for the road - effectively a wet brake bias set up. That should be fine. On the track, the car will be very good. Nice project.

fioran0 said: Why no wheel liners? Did you have to take them out to fit race rubber or did they just get chewed up and binned? When you say solid bushes do you mean suspension? If so then I agree. Ive never had any problems in GT3s etc on the road with them. I dont find ride much changed at all if I am honest in terms of compliance, though the car feels a million miles better as a result of their install. That's right. Slicks kept rubbing the arches which also had to be rolled a little. Yep, I mean suspension. I find it quite bearable on the road. I thought about solid mounts for gearbox etc but decided against going deaf in middle age. BTW, 110dB!!! Looks like you won't be doing any track days then.

Steve Rance said: I do skulk about on the road quite happily but the harnesses and race seats sometimes make exiting junctions a bit difficult. I have the same problem plus a full roll cage (for which no doubt others will severely admonish me). Thankfully I am short enough not to be too close to the metal above my head, but I still strap the harness on as tightly as possible to prevent movement. This and the tiny wing mirrors mean the act of changing lane on the motorway partially requires the Force. I suppose the upside is I tend to be very well behaved in traffic. Love this project. More please!

mollytherocker said: Now this is a 'Thread'! Keep the detail and pics coming! Yep, this is the sort of thread we need. Good stuff!

marky911 said: Still looks great Graeme! Are you racing this then or just track days? Speaking of Cheeper van hire, where is Ade lately? Not seen him on here for a while. Many thanks Mark. It has been built to go racing. 2013 did not go as planned. I did two races but knew we had an issue with the car. So parked it up until it gets sorted. The plan for 2014 will be to do three or four races.

Following this with interest!

dom9 said: Following this with interest! +1

Harris_I said: That's right. Slicks kept rubbing the arches which also had to be rolled a little. Yep, I mean suspension. I find it quite bearable on the road. I thought about solid mounts for gearbox etc but decided against going deaf in middle age. BTW, 110dB!!! Looks like you won't be doing any track days then. Thought so ref the rubbing. You can have wide rubber or low height on the street shells but not both unfortunately. LOL on the hearing, even those urethane gearbox mounts are proving a bit much for quite a few hardened track rats. Thats FIA 110db too, so thats drive by sound level measured at a sound station 50ft away on track side or whatever it was at that time, not static 110db measured 10ft from the back end of the car. Track days can suck it (actually I have a 997 Cup system thats quieter that I can run for those things, or i will fit up some supertraps to the ends if I need to). I had a good old chuckle on the door mirrors. They are great at close quarter (ie a car a foot away from your 1/4 panel) but less good when out in the open huh!!! I have a rear view camera Im going to put in. Even a rear view mirror isnt much cop any more. Its useless with that rear wing though theres some vision now its at roof height rather than the lower stock 6Cup height. A little screen on the dash with a continuous feed from the rear is whats needed. Edited by fioran0 on Friday 3rd January 17:03

What are super traps? I'm always looking for an effective bolt-on way to quieten down my car for track day static tests.

Steve Rance said: Neil I have the original wooden floor plates. To be honest they are fine but best if you wear reasonably grippy footwear. I do skulk about on the road quite happily but the harnesses and race seats sometimes make exiting junctions a bit difficult. Like your car, mine has a solid mounted box so earplugs are also useful. My biggest problem is set up as its cheaper to run the car on slicks at track days so thats the primary set up objective. This leads to a few lock up problems on the road. I did look at an adjustable bias set up - which I much prefer - but it the car wouldn't then be correct in spec. My half way measure solution was a motorsport ABS unit which works well on the road and circuit. With an adjustable bias, you can just run more rear for the road - effectively a wet brake bias set up. That should be fine. On the track, the car will be very good. Nice project. Thanks Steve, I have the wooden floor board in mine too (its under the rubber stuff at the moment). The floor isnt flat enough to have nothing there, plus it looks cool. Its fantastic that even today, a sheet of wood offers the best approach lol. I have the 3 points left in there for the exact same reason you mention. It was bad enough in the Stradale and that was an A to A car. One sometimes went past B but you couldnt really stop there. 50% because of the attention the car got the moment it stood still, 50% because you were never convinced it would start again if you shut it off. ABS was a problem for me given the range or rubber I need/want to use. There no street tyre in the right size to give me the huge rear profile I need. That cup slick is a 680 diameter. I can drop a bit of width and get a tall profile (for street sizes) but its still not close enough to the 680mm to not cause ABS headaches. I would have had to be switch programmes every time I swapped from slick to street tyre and back again. That bosch M4 ABS is an awesome thing. Ive driven a few cars with it and it was tempting to use one on this too but even with it there was no getting around the above problem. It is only a case of firing up a computer and switching over but its still the sort of hassle I am trying to get away from. Running the dual masters get me over this altogether. I can run any size rubber I feel like without any problems at all. Its also a really nice setup once you get used to it. On the track I actually like being able to lock the wheels if I want to (ie in a spin) so it was really only pluses for this particular application. I will be setting up for road rubber just now. I will probably take some weight off the nose too for added stability since I can adjust bias. For track days I will just string the car up and add on camber and height at the rear before setting off if its going on slicks. I can run take off Cup rubber for track days which like your situation means that slicks for tracks makes the most financial sense (before even considering performance) but I will hopefully drive more on the road with this.

arcamalpha said: What are super traps? I'm always looking for an effective bolt-on way to quieten down my car for track day static tests. Its an exhaust extension full of plates that you bolt on to your tail pipe to reduce sound. WIth turn downs and a supertrap you can get about 7-8db reduction for a track side station, around 5db for a static. You can get more but you start hurting power, though that being said, a black flag removes 100% of your power right. It looks ugly but I can help get you on when you otherwise couldnt.

fioran0 said: Its an exhaust extension full of plates that you bolt on to your tail pipe to reduce sound. WIth turn downs and a supertrap you can get about 7-8db reduction for a track side station, around 5db for a static. You can get more but you start hurting power, though that being said, a black flag removes 100% of your power right. It looks ugly but I can help get you on when you otherwise couldnt. Cheers. I did some googling before posting but couldn't find a product - do you have a link please?

its actually spelled supertrapp. that may help with the googling

fioran0 said: its actually spelled supertrapp. that may help with the googling Thanks. I'd found it but struggled with the specific product I could use. It would seem demontweaks sell them. Anyway - thread back on track. More on your amazing toy please!

arcamalpha said: fioran0 said: its actually spelled supertrapp. that may help with the googling Thanks. I'd found it but struggled with the specific product I could use. It would seem demontweaks sell them. Anyway - thread back on track. More on your amazing toy please! You may want to have a look at these instead of Supertrapps. They are a lot cheaper and will reduce noise levels by around 3-5 db's. https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/merlin-mild-s... I've used them myself and can vouch for their effectiveness. Sorry to highjack your thread, Neil.

not at all. jump in with anything to add anytime.

Well here seems to be a solution if you need good exhaust and still be able to take it on any track. They claim it makes only 92db. Not cheap of course but.. Pipe diameter is 70mm through out. I think my Manthey/M&M is 63mm in comparison. http://www.albertweb.de/racing/porsche-996/auspuff...

fioran0 said: Thanks Steve, I have the wooden floor board in mine too (its under the rubber stuff at the moment). The floor isnt flat enough to have nothing there, plus it looks cool. Its fantastic that even today, a sheet of wood offers the best approach lol. I have the 3 points left in there for the exact same reason you mention. It was bad enough in the Stradale and that was an A to A car. One sometimes went past B but you couldnt really stop there. 50% because of the attention the car got the moment it stood still, 50% because you were never convinced it would start again if you shut it off. ABS was a problem for me given the range or rubber I need/want to use. There no street tyre in the right size to give me the huge rear profile I need. That cup slick is a 680 diameter. I can drop a bit of width and get a tall profile (for street sizes) but its still not close enough to the 680mm to not cause ABS headaches. I would have had to be switch programmes every time I swapped from slick to street tyre and back again. That bosch M4 ABS is an awesome thing. Ive driven a few cars with it and it was tempting to use one on this too but even with it there was no getting around the above problem. It is only a case of firing up a computer and switching over but its still the sort of hassle I am trying to get away from. Running the dual masters get me over this altogether. I can run any size rubber I feel like without any problems at all. Its also a really nice setup once you get used to it. On the track I actually like being able to lock the wheels if I want to (ie in a spin) so it was really only pluses for this particular application. I will be setting up for road rubber just now. I will probably take some weight off the nose too for added stability since I can adjust bias. For track days I will just string the car up and add on camber and height at the rear before setting off if its going on slicks. I can run take off Cup rubber for track days which like your situation means that slicks for tracks makes the most financial sense (before even considering performance) but I will hopefully drive more on the road with this. Hi Neil Good logic. The adjustable bias is the ideal solution - and no doubt a lot cheaper. I love the way that engineers 'just string up' a car! Agghh! It's my nightmare job! I hate it. My solution - which as an engineer will seem ghastly to you - was to simply set the car up for slicks ( compromised on hard compound Dunlops so that the camber angles were not silly ) and throw a set of YoKo's on it to get about on the road. It's hardly an ideal solution as the ride heights on road tires are much too high. This makes it - in all honesty - a truly rotten road car! With no trim, power steering rose joints, solid engine and gearbox mounts et al I suppose could be forgiven if the set up was sweet for the road. But it's not!! I need to take a leaf out of your book and do my own set ups for each application. Your solution involves more effort but offers far more rewards methinks..

Trev450 said: You may want to have a look at these instead of Supertrapps. They are a lot cheaper and will reduce noise levels by around 3-5 db's. https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/merlin-mild-s... I've used them myself and can vouch for their effectiveness. Sorry to highjack your thread, Neil. What fuel are you running ? I know that the 996 RSR engine was set up for Sonoco 105 and because it need to extract the heat as easily as possible, it was very sensitive to exhaust back-pressure. Piston crown pitting was therefore an ever present danger ..

Thankfully I only have to worry about finding a good base set up for the 888's which of course I can run on both road and circuit. It has been a very long road with this car. Amusingly on the less than frequent journeys it has made as a road car I thought this is bloody hard work. I used to use my old 3.2 SSE quite a lot on the road and in the early days used to drive it to the circuit with the missus, race it and drive it back home. Even Zandvoort on one occasion. That was along time ago and I put it down to old age creeping up on me. Until I realised we had no working front suspension. One of a number of things being addressed at the moment. I find projects like Neils and Steves the most fascinating part of PH. The road people travel to reach their particular goals. Great stuff

ChrisW. said: Trev450 said: You may want to have a look at these instead of Supertrapps. They are a lot cheaper and will reduce noise levels by around 3-5 db's. https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/merlin-mild-s... I've used them myself and can vouch for their effectiveness. Sorry to highjack your thread, Neil. What fuel are you running ? I know that the 996 RSR engine was set up for Sonoco 105 and because it need to extract the heat as easily as possible, it was very sensitive to exhaust back-pressure. Piston crown pitting was therefore an ever present danger .. I should point out that I use these silencers on an Evo, but the smae benefits would apply to anything else. In answer to your question, I use 99 octane pump fuel.

Trev450 said: ChrisW. said: Trev450 said: You may want to have a look at these instead of Supertrapps. They are a lot cheaper and will reduce noise levels by around 3-5 db's. https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/merlin-mild-s... I've used them myself and can vouch for their effectiveness. Sorry to highjack your thread, Neil. What fuel are you running ? I know that the 996 RSR engine was set up for Sonoco 105 and because it need to extract the heat as easily as possible, it was very sensitive to exhaust back-pressure. Piston crown pitting was therefore an ever present danger .. Sorry for any confusion but I should point out that I use these silencers on a Mitsubishi Evo, but the same benefits would apply to anything else. In answer to your question, I use 99 octane pump fuel.

Trev450 said: You may want to have a look at these instead of Supertrapps. They are a lot cheaper and will reduce noise levels by around 3-5 db's. https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/merlin-mild-s... I've used them myself and can vouch for their effectiveness. Sorry to highjack your thread, Neil. Thanks. Will investigate both.

JarmoL said: Well here seems to be a solution if you need good exhaust and still be able to take it on any track. They claim it makes only 92db. Not cheap of course but.. Pipe diameter is 70mm through out. I think my Manthey/M&M is 63mm in comparison. http://www.albertweb.de/racing/porsche-996/auspuff... The original Manthey/Europipe systems were 70mm Jarmol, not sure about the later M&M systems.

Slippydiff said: The original Manthey/Europipe systems were 70mm Jarmol, not sure about the later M&M systems. My M+M Cup system is 70mm with 90mm tailpipes. It measures around 110dB at .5M (except at Oulton where they insist it's 113). Interestingly, it fails to trip the 103dB trackside driveby at Spa. I was using Decibel Devils to get on trackdays, but even they were not enough for the Oulton noise police, so I've now invested in one of these - they look fugly as hell but do work well:

Slippydiff said: The original Manthey/Europipe systems were 70mm Jarmol, not sure about the later M&M systems. Ok, I stand corrected. Anyway that Albert's exhaust looks to be very well executed. 92 db is amazingly low for these cars I think. Apparently it's not robbing any power either if their claims are to be believed.

JarmoL said: Ok, I stand corrected. Anyway that Albert's exhaust looks to be very well executed. 92 db is amazingly low for these cars I think. Apparently it's not robbing any power either if their claims are to be believed. What db's does your Manthey system show when tested ?

In static test it's ~105 db . I have the 2005 Cup decklid and air filter arrangement, it may add some intake noise as well. I have tried Desibel devils and they bring down the noise level somewhat. Not enough to pass the 95 db limit on my "local" track though. (I even added 90 degree bends at the ends) I am also little worried they might put additional heat on the engine as they are smaller diameter than the exhaust itself.

ChrisW. said: What fuel are you running ? I know that the 996 RSR engine was set up for Sonoco 105 and because it need to extract the heat as easily as possible, it was very sensitive to exhaust back-pressure. Piston crown pitting was therefore an ever present danger .. Only the cars that ran under Grand Am regs (ie at Daytona 24hr) may have been set up for 105 RON fuel though I have no idea if they were. The Grand Am control fuel was Sunoco 260GT (105RON) at the time of the 996 however this was changed to 260GTX (103RON) at the end of 2005 removing the ethanol content due to issues with fuel cells. The ACO/FIA cars would have all been set for 98RON just as they continue to be today. The Cups are and have always been 98RON. FWIW, the Grand Am Porsches have run 98RON and not 103RON IIRC since Porsche began making purpose built Cup cars for Grand Am around 2007. The Albert exhaust system is similar in layout to the "quiet" version available for the 997 Cup. This uses extra side cans (like the street car) to reduce noise further though ofcourse that Albert system is made somewhat nicer. Ive never had to do a static noise test in a Cup. The few times theres been any sort of noise controls anywhere Ive been it has only been track side monitoring which certainly gives you a chance in the way that static, right up your jacksie with a mic doesnt in the 911. Angled exhaust pipes are often enough for these. TBH, there comes a point where one must surely just think whats the point and go elsewhere right. If you need to spend a whole heap of money and clamp a bunch of macgyver type stuff to your back bumper just to drive in circles is it really worth it. Does one truly need to go through an A-team type montage as part of their track day prep? Edited by fioran0 on Tuesday 7th January 14:50

fioran0 said: TBH, there comes a point where one must surely just think whats the point and go elsewhere right. If you need to spend a whole heap of money and clamp a bunch of macgyver type stuff to your back bumper just to drive in circles is it really worth it. Does one truly need to go through an A-team type montage as part of their track day prep? You've articulated what I've been feeling for a long time. Remember my woes over getting my car IVA'd on entry to the UK? (the bazooka on the back that cost me £300 and was a one-use item never to be reused). At Goodwood last year I ended up lifting off every time I went past the pit entry. What exactly is the point of going to a track day if you have to ease off? At the risk of being an obnoxious whiny former expat returning to Blighty only to b h and moan at his truly first world problems, but I used to be at the track almost every week and never give a second thought to noise. Every year, the 24 hour race would come to town and residents would write in to the local rag to complain only to get (rightly) shot down by everyone else for choosing to locate themselves next to a fricking race track!

I have a bog standard c2s 997.1 and as noise tested at Goodwood in August and blew 102..........I returned in December and blew 89.......only difference is clutch pedal in and out......saw it on a forum somewhere but appears to have worked.......anyone with same experience or is the testing method just not that consistent?

The scale is logarithmic so whilst the clutch pedal will make a difference, it shouldn't be that much (and I have the chattering RS flywheel so the difference should be a lot more than non-RS). To be fair to Goodwood, they were very good about it, recognizing the peculiarities of testing a 911 from 0.5 metres away from the source of both exhaust and induction noise, and checking to see I had depressed the clutch for the static test. They seemed to have an unwritten rule 'knock off a couple of decibels because it's a 911', though don't quote me on that. They were also good enough to give me a friendly tap to let me know I was bothering the noise meter on full chat. I guess I will also look into a bolt-on solution. Neil's Supertrapps seem fiddly for a moron like me, so I'll have a closer look at the Decibel Devils or the Merlin muffler.

I was going to try and post something interesting, but I am on the wrong computer for photos so will lazily just add these instead. Following on from some stuff earlier, some of you might be interested to hear that the motorsport cars have quite a few shell differences compared to the regular street cars. Most of it is rather dull but something that is at least able to be easily shown is the rear wheel tubs. The street cars all run the same rear wheel tubs, which drop down and cut across inside the car taking out a significant area of wheel well volume. This limits the size of rear rubber that can be used and the ride height that can be run if you dont want to just shred your tyres. The motorsport cars have a completely different wheel tub. It has changed some over the years but it essentially carries the tub right over to the inside wall. This lets them run big profile rear rubber (needed for heat management and traction etc) and low ride heights. Anyways, heres a few pics to sort of show whats going on with the tubs. These arent from my car, the street ones are just a web grab from a stripped 996 GT3, the third is from an RSR. You are looking at the rear inner wheel tubs to see the difference, specifically at the area between the rear shock mounting and the rear 1/4 window (behind the vertical plate for the seat/seatbelt/interior trim). The second, where the foam is lets you see just how much volume is really missing on the street cars. As you can see, the RSR has a bunch of space. Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 12th January 13:56

Harris_I said: You've articulated what I've been feeling for a long time. Remember my woes over getting my car IVA'd on entry to the UK? (the bazooka on the back that cost me £300 and was a one-use item never to be reused). At Goodwood last year I ended up lifting off every time I went past the pit entry. What exactly is the point of going to a track day if you have to ease off? At the risk of being an obnoxious whiny former expat returning to Blighty only to b h and moan at his truly first world problems, but I used to be at the track almost every week and never give a second thought to noise. Every year, the 24 hour race would come to town and residents would write in to the local rag to complain only to get (rightly) shot down by everyone else for choosing to locate themselves next to a fricking race track! I hear you, its hard to not just moan about how its better elsewhere. It can always be a lot worse but is that enough to just be thankful for. I dont get what the UK obsession with static testing is. Those of you who track on the continent, do they static test you there too or just have track side monitoring stations? Its a ludicrous concept, given that no one is car park racing. Trackside noise policing is much more useful (in terms of assessing noise impact) and lets cars have a chance. Even something that initially seems quite low, ie 95db will see GT3s pass when its measured trackside without breaking too much sweat.

Random setup post time. Steve, Graeme, Others..... whats your thoughts or what runs have you had with these cars set up to be a "slow hands" drive rather than a "fast hands" one? I was having a conversation the other day about this with a few people, some who run across a few platforms in racing and thought it might make an interesting discussion. The common setup on the porsches is always for fast hands. I guess it has been the dominant fashion in GT racing over the last 15 years or so, certainly in Europe. The factory develops the cars along this path and cars that need to be used by more than one driver always end up this way to ensure they fit with everyone. As a result "fast hands" is all you ever drive but Ive played somewhat with coming the other way and always thought it was actually quite nice. I know a few others have done some real experimenting and been really fast with it and plenty more others more who much prefer the drive that comes out even if they dont run that setup style regularly for many reasons. All that being said, every Cup I have had has still been setup in the traditional manner so go figure. Obviously the massive spring rates make any moment a fast hands one in one of these cars, theres grip and then theres none and little in between but if you pick a random race cam from a Cup or R/RSR the chances are that the wheel is getting a decent work out even when the cars not having a moment. It would be tempting of course to suggest that the short race format lends itself to this but endurance racing is the same. Interestingly, if you look at a cam from say a C6R, where theres no european input in terms of line up etc the cabin is serene by comparison. Its a different platform sure, but its interesting to watch the difference none the less. You got any thoughts?

Oddly I don't tend to make that many hand corrections until towards the end of a race - stint when the tyres are shot. Most of my trimming is footwork. I find cars that have a manthey set up too pointy but in my experience this is more to do with what is taken from the front rather than added to the rear in terms of set up. On saying that this is geo and not a spring shock platform issue. Interestingly, I drove a 996 cup with a 'soft hands' - as you would call it - set up in a 24 hour race and it was a very easy car to drive but I felt that the platform set up transfered more emphasis on performance to the tyres which - as a result - lost life earlier. A driving style change was necessary to make the car work better. Was it a better car for it? Not sure. In terms of sprint place it wasn't a fast car - think it qualified 28th or something like that. Race pace was ok though and we ended up 3rd over all for much of the race before the clutch went. Longer stints ( 4 hour ) were a lot easier with this platform Interesting question

I can't profess to know anything on setup but FWIW, I used to run a Cup in one hour races with 2 drivers. In the early races, my partner would complain that the tyres had degraded too much at handover and he spent much of his half hour stint sawing at the wheel. This was in very high ambient temperatures so managing tyres was a high priority. In the end we went for a compromised set up which would allow us to stay in contention for the first half hour - as a result I focused on a cerebral smooth style rather than balls out qualifying pace and that gave my partner something to work with when I handed over.

fioran0 said: I hear you, its hard to not just moan about how its better elsewhere. It can always be a lot worse but is that enough to just be thankful for. I dont get what the UK obsession with static testing is. Those of you who track on the continent, do they static test you there too or just have track side monitoring stations? Its a ludicrous concept, given that no one is car park racing. Trackside noise policing is much more useful (in terms of assessing noise impact) and lets cars have a chance. Even something that initially seems quite low, ie 95db will see GT3s pass when its measured trackside without breaking too much sweat. In Finland we have both the static test and also track side monitoring.(95db limit) Static test is rather pointless for the reasons you stated earlier. At Spa there was supposed to be static test as well but they didn't bother and everyone got on driving. No problems with trackside monitoring, the limit was 103db. That was 2012 though.

It's not something I have really thought about. My time in a 996 Cup was fairly limited. It was not running adjustable dampers by design. In truth more to do with preventing the guy who's car it was constantly fiddling about with it and getting nowhere. With this setup it felt fairly soft. After a couple of races we got the RSR style blades which did improve upon things. Mike Jordan spent half a day at Silverstone setting the car up with the new arb's and I went up in the afternoon to do a few laps in it and get acquainted. You could take bridge flat which I thought was impressive. A couple of years later I found out it was running a standard road car ratio gearbox. Don't ask me why. In truth I guess I have never had the chance to compare a fast hands or slow hands setup. I've always been fairly good at driving around a cars short comings. The first time I drove a 996 Cup was at Silverstone on the National. Being used to the old air cooled stuff it took a bit of re learning. But once I got my head around the different driving style it was ok. Mike is a very clever guy and would wander around the circuit watching the car through every corner. There was no lap timer or pit board timing throughout the entire day. All seat of the pants stuff. The last session that I was given for that day was on very tired slicks. I was half a second of Mike's qualifying time for the Bill Taylor race two weeks previous in similar conditions. Unbeknown to me this was effectively me qualifying as to whether or not I would be going to Daytona.

graemel said: It's not something I have really thought about. My time in a 996 Cup was fairly limited. It was not running adjustable dampers by design. In truth more to do with preventing the guy who's car it was constantly fiddling about with it and getting nowhere. With this setup it felt fairly soft. After a couple of races we got the RSR style blades which did improve upon things. Mike Jordan spent half a day at Silverstone setting the car up with the new arb's and I went up in the afternoon to do a few laps in it and get acquainted. You could take bridge flat which I thought was impressive. A couple of years later I found out it was running a standard road car ratio gearbox. Don't ask me why. In truth I guess I have never had the chance to compare a fast hands or slow hands setup. I've always been fairly good at driving around a cars short comings. The first time I drove a 996 Cup was at Silverstone on the National. Being used to the old air cooled stuff it took a bit of re learning. But once I got my head around the different driving style it was ok. Mike is a very clever guy and would wander around the circuit watching the car through every corner. There was no lap timer or pit board timing throughout the entire day. All seat of the pants stuff. The last session that I was given for that day was on very tired slicks. I was half a second of Mike's qualifying time for the Bill Taylor race two weeks previous in similar conditions. Unbeknown to me this was effectively me qualifying as to whether or not I would be going to Daytona. This is all very well Graeme but where's the substance to this thread. Did your car have white stitching and pink calipers or perhaps blue stitching with red?

Steve Rance said: This is all very well Graeme but where's the substance to this thread. Did your car have white stitching and pink calipers or perhaps blue stitching with red? Brilliant Steve. No it didn't or at least I did not notice. It did have a steering wheel that looked like it came off of a bus as my compadre was an ex hot rod racer. As a mate explained, they used to sit real close up on their over sized steering wheels. It made perfect sense but by definition of size requires a lot more steering input. I longed for one of those F1 looking mini steering wheels. I did try and have a deal with him. I'll pay for the steering wheel if you pay for the sequential gearbox. We did argue about fitting an ashtray in the car and I used to tape cigarettes to the dash top just to annoy him

But didn't Ayrton Senna specify the largest possible steering wheel in his cockpit (so as to reduce the sensitivity of input to response)? There seems to be a trend these days in favour of small wheels with thick rims - meaning overly darty responses and less sensitivity. On the days I jump from a modern car into my integrale, it amazes me how manufacturers got it so right a couple of decades ago but since then seem to have been dictated to by marketing departments instead. Sorry for the aside, but this is a great thread!

Steve Rance said: Oddly I don't tend to make that many hand corrections until towards the end of a race - stint when the tyres are shot. Most of my trimming is footwork. I find cars that have a manthey set up too pointy but in my experience this is more to do with what is taken from the front rather than added to the rear in terms of set up. On saying that this is geo and not a spring shock platform issue. Interestingly, I drove a 996 cup with a 'soft hands' - as you would call it - set up in a 24 hour race and it was a very easy car to drive but I felt that the platform set up transfered more emphasis on performance to the tyres which - as a result - lost life earlier. A driving style change was necessary to make the car work better. Was it a better car for it? Not sure. In terms of sprint place it wasn't a fast car - think it qualified 28th or something like that. Race pace was ok though and we ended up 3rd over all for much of the race before the clutch went. Longer stints ( 4 hour ) were a lot easier with this platform Interesting question And interesting response Steve, thanks. Some of what you say echos exactly my experiences exactly while the rest is exactly in the area where I still have questions (tyres v performance) and was going with this whole post in the first place. A "soft hands" leaves the car more able to sit continuously at the edge of tyre adhesion for the stint rather than yo-yoing back and forth over it for the duration as is normal. It SHOULD make the life better but as you know, should and do are not the same thing by any stretch. If it were everything would be nice and easy. Its very interesting that you felt it lost something sooner in terms of quali but race pace was good across an endurance distance. How much this approach gives up over a shorter race where you want to just hit the tyres as hard as you can over the 30 min duration is the biggest question I had outstanding. It will certainly make it a smoother drive, and less fatiguing on the driver both mentally and physically, again pluses for a long race but less so on short runs. Do you think your adapting of driving style would have resulted in your closing the short run pace short fall a second time out armed with this knowledge or do you still think it would not have been there? Were the reactions on the car were just dulled that little that there was no scope to hussle it around when trying for a 100% pace like you can when its a frenzy inside? If anyone is reading this, I hope they picked up on your footwork comment. I know we have talked before about how these cars are driven from the rear, not by the wheel but its such an important point. In that respect, the diff is so important to things. Thats the one thing you notice if you take a run with a pro level driver, they are hitting it so hard its simply not real. The later cars (2005 on) have such a big diff that the car is almost un-turnable in tight corners unless you rotate from the rear. Yanking the steering wheel wont help you out with this. Even on the street cars with their less manly diff the principles still apply. The car is faster and better if you set it to understeer and rotate with the diff/throttle. Tough to learn though. Thats v interesting ref the Manthey setup if they are taking out of the front. My opinion is that you want to add as much to the rear as you can in terms of grip anyways but that this is especially true if you are going towards a soft hands setup. The front almost takes care of itself (within reason of course). Interestingly I have never found a car quicker adding a more front tyre (with a view to gaining grip here), but adding rear width always makes it faster. It doesnt matter if theres no corresponding front increase. Of course if you can do both then things are better still

Harris_I said: I can't profess to know anything on setup but FWIW, I used to run a Cup in one hour races with 2 drivers. In the early races, my partner would complain that the tyres had degraded too much at handover and he spent much of his half hour stint sawing at the wheel. This was in very high ambient temperatures so managing tyres was a high priority. In the end we went for a compromised set up which would allow us to stay in contention for the first half hour - as a result I focused on a cerebral smooth style rather than balls out qualifying pace and that gave my partner something to work with when I handed over. Yeah, tyre management in these things becomes an issue pretty quickly. The spring rates really hit the rubber hard. A half hour race a sprint pace leaves you struggling before the end, trying to then make it through another race (essentially) would be hugely unenjoyable for the poor sod in second

JarmoL said: In Finland we have both the static test and also track side monitoring.(95db limit) Static test is rather pointless for the reasons you stated earlier. At Spa there was supposed to be static test as well but they didn't bother and everyone got on driving. No problems with trackside monitoring, the limit was 103db. That was 2012 though. Thanks Jarmo, I was curious to hear if it was just a UK thing. At least it doesn't seem to be the single focus elsewhere if its not dropped completely. I wonder if Spa is still doing 103db trackside. Thats achievable for almost all cars, even 95db trackside is workable for most everything (and the few that cannot can lift off). Asking people to pass it in the car park is a nonsense.

graemel said: It's not something I have really thought about. My time in a 996 Cup was fairly limited. It was not running adjustable dampers by design. In truth more to do with preventing the guy who's car it was constantly fiddling about with it and getting nowhere. With this setup it felt fairly soft. After a couple of races we got the RSR style blades which did improve upon things. Mike Jordan spent half a day at Silverstone setting the car up with the new arb's and I went up in the afternoon to do a few laps in it and get acquainted. You could take bridge flat which I thought was impressive. A couple of years later I found out it was running a standard road car ratio gearbox. Don't ask me why. In truth I guess I have never had the chance to compare a fast hands or slow hands setup. I've always been fairly good at driving around a cars short comings. The first time I drove a 996 Cup was at Silverstone on the National. Being used to the old air cooled stuff it took a bit of re learning. But once I got my head around the different driving style it was ok. Mike is a very clever guy and would wander around the circuit watching the car through every corner. There was no lap timer or pit board timing throughout the entire day. All seat of the pants stuff. The last session that I was given for that day was on very tired slicks. I was half a second of Mike's qualifying time for the Bill Taylor race two weeks previous in similar conditions. Unbeknown to me this was effectively me qualifying as to whether or not I would be going to Daytona. Graeme, I was thinking about your Daytona run when I was posting too and whether you had run a hectic or relaxed car for it (beyond the setup changes simply for the banking alone). When did you run there? Was it early in the cycle of the 996?

Steve Rance said: This is all very well Graeme but where's the substance to this thread. Did your car have white stitching and pink calipers or perhaps blue stitching with red? Steve, stop distracting from the topic. We all want to know what shoes and gloves he wore?

Harris_I said: But didn't Ayrton Senna specify the largest possible steering wheel in his cockpit (so as to reduce the sensitivity of input to response)? There seems to be a trend these days in favour of small wheels with thick rims - meaning overly darty responses and less sensitivity. On the days I jump from a modern car into my integrale, it amazes me how manufacturers got it so right a couple of decades ago but since then seem to have been dictated to by marketing departments instead. Sorry for the aside, but this is a great thread! I can understand the logic in that and I don't like thick rims but I'm talking about a very large wheel. A long time ago but possible 380 or 400mm in diameter. It just made it bloody hard work. You effectively had to put a lot more arm and shoulder effort in to make the required corrections. I remember testing at Oulton and I did a few laps in the other Cup that was running with us. In truth to try out the sequential gearbox as I had not had any experience of one. That was a real eye opener. With its smaller steering wheel and the box it made life so much easier. I can't remember the make of the wheel but I think they were about £1200 or £1500 at the time.

fioran0 said: And interesting response Steve, thanks. Some of what you say echos exactly my experiences exactly while the rest is exactly in the area where I still have questions (tyres v performance) and was going with this whole post in the first place. A "soft hands" leaves the car more able to sit continuously at the edge of tyre adhesion for the stint rather than yo-yoing back and forth over it for the duration as is normal. It SHOULD make the life better but as you know, should and do are not the same thing by any stretch. If it were everything would be nice and easy. Its very interesting that you felt it lost something sooner in terms of quali but race pace was good across an endurance distance. How much this approach gives up over a shorter race where you want to just hit the tyres as hard as you can over the 30 min duration is the biggest question I had outstanding. It will certainly make it a smoother drive, and less fatiguing on the driver both mentally and physically, again pluses for a long race but less so on short runs. Do you think your adapting of driving style would have resulted in your closing the short run pace short fall a second time out armed with this knowledge or do you still think it would not have been there? Were the reactions on the car were just dulled that little that there was no scope to hussle it around when trying for a 100% pace like you can when its a frenzy inside? If anyone is reading this, I hope they picked up on your footwork comment. I know we have talked before about how these cars are driven from the rear, not by the wheel but its such an important point. In that respect, the diff is so important to things. Thats the one thing you notice if you take a run with a pro level driver, they are hitting it so hard its simply not real. The later cars (2005 on) have such a big diff that the car is almost un-turnable in tight corners unless you rotate from the rear. Yanking the steering wheel wont help you out with this. Even on the street cars with their less manly diff the principles still apply. The car is faster and better if you set it to understeer and rotate with the diff/throttle. Tough to learn though. Thats v interesting ref the Manthey setup if they are taking out of the front. My opinion is that you want to add as much to the rear as you can in terms of grip anyways but that this is especially true if you are going towards a soft hands setup. The front almost takes care of itself (within reason of course). Interestingly I have never found a car quicker adding a more front tyre (with a view to gaining grip here), but adding rear width always makes it faster. It doesnt matter if theres no corresponding front increase. Of course if you can do both then things are better still Neil apologies. I meant that I felt that the Manthey set ups took away from the rear and not the front. Often going into oversteer on a trail immediately after turn in. The only way I could find a balance was to set the front dampers to full stiff but I felt that they needed re valving to be even stiffer. Just my opinion of course. Regarding the 'soft hands' 996 cup. Initially I over drove the car which made things worse then I chatted with the engineer and found that the camber angles were low so I figured that the footprint would be good under braking so I tried reducing the braking zone - ie braking later. That really worked well and I found over a second that way. Also picked up the throttle earlier - you'd know why. Made the whole thing quick but low work on the lap. Every driver finds his own way but this worked for me Very interested in developing this one with you.

fioran0 said: Graeme, I was thinking about your Daytona run when I was posting too and whether you had run a hectic or relaxed car for it (beyond the setup changes simply for the banking alone). When did you run there? Was it early in the cycle of the 996? 2002. It was a bit of a baptism of fire. I'd driven 996 Cup for the first time at Silverstone. I obviously needed to have a drive of the GTR prior to Daytona. They needed to run the fresh engine in so in November at Donington on a typically miserable, wet and overcast day I drove the 996 GTR for the first time. The next time I drove the R would be at Daytona. There was very little free practise time and we all had to get acquainted. I was warned that the brakes (no abs of coure) would feel very wooden with very little feedback. I was given a tip that took a bit courage to go with and of course it worked. Personally I thought the car was over sprung. We talked about it but we did not have a flat floor so we had to go with what we had. Through the in field part of the circuit it wanted to swap ends. By that I mean if you got on the throttle to early it would light the rears up and before you knew it you were going backwards. As you know they have very little lock and you had to be incredibly quick to catch it. I think I spun it four times which was more than I had ever spun a 911 during 9 years of racing. MS spun it three times so that made me feel a lot better. Especially as he had been racing one for a good few years. Thankfully none of us spun it during the race. I remember on my first few laps getting cramp in my right thigh. I thought how the bloody hell am I going to get through 24 hours and then made myself relax. For me it was a miriad of firsts. Driving the R, the first proper race car I had ever driven. Studying the data overlays to see where I was loosing time as there was no time to play catch up by seat of the pants. Driving on a banked circuit. Racing for 24 hours. Going out to play with the big boys and being over taken by cars pulling well over 200mph. As MS said afterwards "well we'll never be scared of driving fast again will we" You can see where I got the colour scheme from for the 3.2 SSE Edited by graemel on Wednesday 15th January 21:54 Edited by graemel on Wednesday 15th January 22:09