Price crash

Last year I paid my OPC £56,000 for a 2-year old C2 Cabrio (Oct 02) with 6,000 miles. This was slightly over my budget but they said it was the absolute lowest they could go. Sadly I need to sell it now, with 18,800 miles. They say it needs 4 new tyres (OK) and refurbed front and rear bumpers and bonnet (I'm no bodywork expert but they look fine to me). They tell me it is worth just £37,000. £19K in 8 months? Can that be right?

They sell high and buy low. Try a few other OPC's it depends on stock and demand they have. Also try the well known specialists if you can wait a bit you will get far more for it i am sure. I know the 996 prices have taken a bit of a hammering but not that much. Good luck. Phil

That seems like a pretty derisory offer. But it's not just 996s. Boxsters, Cayennes, even 997s and most other prestige brands are suffering. Too many cars chasing too few customers. Sadly, Porsche are now volume producers and, combined with the launch of lots of new models in close succession, they run the risk of devaluing the brand, especially if the traditionally strong(ish) residuals start to suffer.

Snap - we have a August 02 cost £55k - last offer we had was £40k - we have a c4 cab with 32k on the clock and is a facelift car. Lets face it all Porsche`s no longer hold the money - But they are good fun to drive. Look on the up side our ISA is 20% up[ ] - Just love Latin America

Richard, I would try a few others like Camtune and Charles Ivey. Porsche will have to respray the front and rear spoilers as common practice, then 4 new tyres, perhaps brakes and a full service , alloy refurb and valet etc, which will cost a few grand. Their normal mark up is £6k on top of their costs. (Reading General manager informed me) so expect that car to be in their showroom 2 weeks from now at £46995 with a 12 month warranty and bouquet of flowers. They are a very profitable company, and harsh with it. Sorry, but no-one ever makes a profit on a Porsche. You just have to grit your teeth and do it. No family holiday this year i'm afraid. Simon [ ]

I have a 996TT which has been losing money at a frightening rate recently - though the trend seems to be slowing. It would have been easy to bail out but I made the decision to hold tight & see what happens. I have a 997 TT on order so will keep the 996TT up until Autumn next year & just grin & bear it when I am told what mine is worth ! In a strange way I love the car so much I am not actually that bothered what residuals are doing, they do what they do. Helps that you go into Porsche (or any supercar) ownership with your eyes wide open. Julian.

Absolutely spot on. I bought my first 911 in 1983 and I've upgraded every couple of years or so and, in the main, the residuals have been pretty good. Along comes the 997, (which would be my 11th 911) . Nice car but, from experience, I'll wait for the second model year so they can iron out any niggles. But now, looking at the figures, it makes no sense - £30k to change! My 996 is excellent, perfect in many respects, and the 997 simply doesn't offer that much more. And even 997s are losing a packet. When you are spending your own 'real' money it doesn't make logical sense. I've long since lost interest in 'having to have the latest model' and Im much more interested in the classic 911s. For the extra £30k one could buy a real 'classic' 911 (911S, 911 'Club Sport', 964RS etc) that shouldn't lose money and may well appreciate.

snap.. In the region of 25K a year I fear [ ] garyw

This all makes very interesting reading. As I recall a basic 911 Carrera would have cost around £38k new in 1988 and decent versions of these are now selling for around £15k +, so just over 50% depreciation in 17 years (disregarding the effects of inflation). I bought a 911 Speedster 9 years ago which I still have and would hope to get pretty much what I paid for it if I sold it now, so I think if anyone is looking to avoid the depreciation trap then going retro is the way to do it, though I would be the first to admit that the older models are not necessarily ideal as daily drivers (a Speedster especially so). Having been sorely tempted by a new facelift 996 in 2001 and subsequently having read the horror stories about glacial depreciation and faults such as RMS etc I'm glad that in the end my head ruled my heart and I kept the faith - oldskool! Sadly I fear that the 996 is heading for 928 territory, i.e. £70k new 10+ years ago for a fantastic car, now available for sub £10k and an absolute bargain for the enthusiasts out there.

Sub £10k could be pushing it a bit, however you are right that they will be some very good (and cheap cars) for the enthusiasts in 2 to 3 years. Looks like we will be keeping ours for some years, keep up the warrenty and enjoy the car to its full or get someone to steal the car and claim the money back on the GAP insurance [ ]

Adrian - you are spot on IMO. I've gone the LHD route and pick up my 09/03 996C2 Tip tomorrow - £37.5k spec list as long as War & Peace! I could afford the extra £12k for a second hand LHD 997 but when I saw the price gap between the last 993's and the first 996's (nil / negative) then all I could see was the 996/997 gap going the same way. (I await a stream of emails from 993 owners extolling the virues of air cooling on a 911). At the end of the day I asked myself whether the 997 was worth £12k more for a car which was one year newer and the first of the line which MAY have niggles attached. I could not get comfortable with this aspect and chose as I did. I believe I have got better value for money bearing in mind future depreciation. Dynamically the 997 appears to be better than the 996, performance is very similar, and ironically views such as ours might, if perpetuated, lead to a hardening of 996 values.

Ah, that explains it! (I recalled your post comparing the 997/997S.) I was wondering why you were bothering about the bedding in of new discs/brakes post but didn't like to ask. And it's funny how great minds think alike, as all the other posts in this thread so far share exactly the same sentiments. Looking to the future though, Porsche themselves must surely eventually come crashing down, something's got to give here somewhere me thinks.

Just wait until the Cayman arrives later this year. By all reports incredible handling and significantly cheaper, and as a result is likely to have a negative impact on all 911 prices. Still, as has been mentioned before, these cars are bought for the driving thrills and the fact they represent the aspiration of a lifetime. That alone makes the cost worthwhile (IMO). They never have or will be a rational way to invest money.

Truth is, there are very few cars that hold value, especially with most of the "prestige" brands having to produce in greater numbers simply to recoup higher initial development costs. I think the market is under pressure across the board and the 996 is bound to get hit as the "just replaced" model. Take a look at Autotrader - 80 Ferrari 360s on sale, prices that show 50% depreciation in 3-4 years. It's a nice feeling if our cars hang on to their value, but residual worth is a relative thing. Spend a fortune on a beautiful woman and the return is either a short experience (in my case...!) or she moves in and that costs a fortune too.

I think its great that prices are plummeting - won't be long now till us people with more sense than money will have the chance to pick up an enormous amount of relatively new car for not a lot of money and pretty much bomb proof depreciation. then go out and really enjoy it without worrying on how much it's going to lose over the next year, month, week...! I'm pleased there are so many people still prepared to throw money at new cars - so please don't stop! Although that doesn't mean a second hand ferrari that has lost a lot of money in depreciation becomes a good buy- especially if it costs you the same amount again just to keep it on the road.... Onto my 6th Porsche now....driven them all hard and made money on every one. Gotta love Porsche. <slightly sarcastic and pleased with myself mode off>

Well glad to see something good's come out of all this. Instead of my buying a new 997, I should cut out the middle man and just send you the cash then? [&:] [ ] Not quite with you on the "...prices are plummeting" ...."bomb proof depreciation..." bit though; seems a bit self contradictory. So what's your secret then jason?

I'll tell you tomorrow...I'm going for a beer[ ] Oh and I meant prices plummet on cars up to say 5 years old to a certain level then after that point Porsches can have pretty much bomb proof depreciation if you have the right car and there are enough enthusiasts that want them - which seems to be where the 996 is suffering (oh and the engine fears...)

The 996 is touted as a daily driver and by all accounts it should last 150-200,000 miles or even more since most of us have them serviced approprately, if not over zealously. I intend to keep mine as long as I can if not for ever. My Uncle has a 911 he bought new in 1987, he has used that car as a daily driver ever since and still drives it with 167,000 miles on the clock. He has kept it pristine and he regularly drives it to Spain and back. As he said, he paid his car up 15 years ago and has had the pleasure of driving a 911 for free since then (apart from service and running costs) and he intends to continue doing the same. It is still a 911 and always will be a 911. There will always be new and better cars but to drive one for 15 years for free is the best investment he has ever made in a car. So, this is the way route I will take; while I have a serious ammount of money invested in my 996 Cab, it is paid up in 6 months and then hopefully I will get to enjoy it for many years to come at relativey little cost. It cost you a lot of hard earned tax paid cash for your 911 so just drive it and enjoy it.

If everyone adopted that approach, there wouldn't be an issue with second hand values. The bottom line is that too many people are selling. Whether this is because too many people have bought them is another matter. If the percentage that sell relatively quickly is the same, then there are more second hand cars on the market. But it would appear the second hand market is not growing as fast as the new car market. Hence the mismatch - else people are buying something else second hand. I'm with Berny, if I can get 20 years of driving out of it, then price is not really an issue. Besides, I'm inclined to keep it now anyway, just to stop some smug person from getting a bargain.

Well? I'm all ears. In two days time, tomorrow will be yesterday.

OK, Jason must be nursing a hangover. Meanwhile, I have spoken to a former OPC dealer who confirms exactly what Simon says above, ie the costs Porsche incur to prep the car (respray front and rear spoilers, 4 new tyres, perhaps brakes and a full service , alloy refurb and valet etc) plus their fierce profit margin, force the offer price down considerably. But we did not get into the 996 market for profit. It was just a love affair. But an expensive one! A new engine (cracked crank casing, documented elsewhere on this forum) which Porsche refused to accept liability for, a flooded interior and failed central locking system, an PFS estimated future value of £36K which turned out to be £27K and left us with a huge deposit to find for the next one, and now this £19K devaluation in 8 months. Unsustainable, I am afraid. We have had a great time with the two cars, but we are unlikely to come back to Porsche.

sorry - just been mega busy with work, and 3 kids under 5 don't help outside work - I'll come back soon as...promise.

I think we have to face up to the reality that these cars deprecite in exactly the same way as other prestige marques. As has been said, Porsche are no longer the specialist manufacturers they used to be, and the change that was required for the company to survive has resulted in a volume produced product. It is a different package than before but (although some air-cooled boys will tell you different) it is still a true 911. All cars like this are going to plummet in value for the first three or four years before stabilising. It is the rule of supply and demand. When they reach a more affordable level (for chaps like me) then the supply of good examples matches closer to the number of potential purchasers. Most new car sales are made to companies, and the owners (sadly) do not care for them in the same way as a Porsche enthusiast. I paid 32K for my car 18 months ago, and it is probably worth about 27K today. 5K in 18 months - that's cheap motoring and a lot less than if I had bought a brand new BMW, Merc or Audi of similar value. Of course, I don't have a problem driving a 7 year old car and much prefer to drive my 996 than 30 grand's worth of anything else. It's nice to park your bum in a nice new seat, but I can't justify that cost to myself. I have probably been lucky, but the 996 has been a lot cheaper to run that the 993 I had before. I don't deny that some people may have made money on older model Porsches, but there are a lot who have had their fingers burned by speculating with these cars as investments. Certain models of the 996 have held up well in value, the Mk1 GT3's being a good example, but these weren't volume production. At the other end of the scale I have a friend who bought a GT2 two years ago. He has done 5000 miles in it, and lost about 50K. £10 a mile in depreciation alone! A loss of 40% of its value in 24 months! I intend to enjoy my 996 for some while, until maybe I can pick up a 997, or late 996, after it has taken the major hit in depreciation. Although I could probably afford to buy a new 997 (albeit that I would probably lose my wife in the process) I really don't want to lose money at a rate approaching that at which I can earn it. Still, losing the wife might solve that problem!

Well worded Richard, i think you have hit the nail on the head. Only because i am driving a very similar car to yours and am going on the same train of thought as you, apart from i don't have a wife to loose. If they are all dropping fast then buying a more up-dated one is all relative. Unless you are buying a high performance car to have a bit of fun for 1 year resell it after that time to use the money for somthing completly different, then there maybe some dissapointment Phil

Adrian I've already had that drain tap on my bank account! My eldest daughter is at University now, which is cheap by comparison. The youngest has left school and doing an apprenticeship. Both were at private school, so I know your pain!

Good point, i went to public school so know what it is all about, well worth the money for my folks. Buying a GT would be nice and maybe for the future but my girl friend costs me a fortune. (joke) I have a business and am trying to expand slowly so 996 that is 7 years old is enough out of that kittly for the time being, i am 32 so have a few more years to drain everything with newer 911s school fees and a wife, not a bad problem to have, chaps? Phil

You're not that bloke in the advert are you? [ ]

Agree with Berny. Average price of an 02 996 is say £40k. Keep it for 10 years and sell it for £10k. that's £3k a year depreciation plus running costs. Those people that buy relatively new and sell relatively quickly will make a loss. People who buy for the long term should do fine. So i'm going to sell mine in 2009. And with my £9k per year car allowance from work and rebate from the tax man i should make profit!?? Or do you disagree? Simon

My situation mirrors everyone else's. Bought a C4S for 59k last November, 18 months old, already down from invoice of 77k, seemed a good buy at the time. Just swapped for a 996 TT, got £45.5k p/ex, now listed at £52850, so there is the 6k profit + costs. Actually should have gone directly for the 996 TT which I intend to keep until a 997 TT is available but even then I'm not sure I'll buy - I'm one of few people who do not think the 997 interior is an improvement on the 996, hate the steering wheels. I think the only way to run cars like these with minimal depreciation is to be in there at the beginning of each model and keep them for 6 months, skipping from Porsche to Ferrari to Mercedes to Aston, but there's always a risk of catching a cold. I have a deposit on an AM V8 buy way down the list and I don't see my turning it into a real car. The comment above about the market being flooded with s/h 360s is correct. I have a 10 year old 355 but the downwards pressure of the 360s has started the 355 depreciating again after I thought it had plateaued.

IMHO I think quite a few people will catch a cold with the AMV8. AM have built a brand new production facility at Gaydon for the V8, and are doing just what Porsche did with the 996 - turning to volume production. They will have to produce large numbers to get down to a price to compete with 911 sales, which seems to be their target market. In a couple of years there will be a lot of second-hand cars on the forecourt and prices will drop accordingly.

They aren't planning on building that many AMV8 to try and combat the price drop, so it can be compared to the 911. Had a call from the OPC to see if I was still interested in the 997TT as they were starting to firm up orders and cancel those no longer interested..(clearing the books). July 2006 was there expected delivey date..[ ] garyw

Agree absolutely. There will be a brief window when people may be able to sell their cars at a modest premium, but it won't be long before the Sunday Times classifieds are full of new/nearly new cars for sale. Furthermore, with a brand new model, built in a new factory, there are likely to be quite a few niggles and teething problems. I'd rather let them build a few for a while and let the first year's customers complete the development programme. And, I bet it's nearer £90,000 when it's fully spec'd. It does look great though. But it's only a 2-seater - No one has yet achieved the 911's magic formula. Which is why, despite recent price drops, really good 996s will always be desirable and I think prices will stabilise. If you've got a 996 keep it and enjoy it. You would have to spend a huge amount more to get something better.

Great - I come back and you guys have pretty much said everything I was going to say[ ] New Porsches will always lose money in the first 4-5 years and to be honest if you haven't got money to burn you are better letting the newer models bed in for 3-4 years anyway as there will always be niggles and issues on new models that need sorting. Then when you buy, if resale or depreciation is important to you, then make sure you buy sensibly - the right colour combinations and the right models that will always have enthusiasts meeting the demand half of demand and supply. There will always be a strong market from the enthusiasts for widebodied cars, gt's, rs's, turbos etc and far less for Targa's and cabs. Just look at the 993 prices - turbo's, RSs and GT2s are through the roof and the 996 equivalents plumetting. BUT the 996 equivalents will get to a level and the enthusiasts will keep the prices there - providing there are not huge numbers of them (you can't really compare a 993 gt2 and a 996 gt2 now can you...). To be honest I'm not a big 996 fan but if the prices of GT3RS's and Turbos fall below that of 993 equivalents then for good conditioned cars that is just plainly stupid...and I might even be tempted! Whatever, if you can afford a nice car when you buy it then go and enjoy it - you only live once[ ] J

How true. I don't see anything happening in the market to suggest that cooking 996 prices are stabilising, they are still coming back same as ever and will do for years to come. Imagine what 996-in-oversupply prices will be like when there are 5 and 6-year-old 997's and Caymans/men up for grabs, and 993 values (including the Targa which I think will defy any dire predictions) are back on the up? The clever/enthusiast money will go on ultra-gorgeous 997 or appreciating 993, and vanilla 996's will be stuck between a rock and a hard place, with nowhere for values to go but down. And how will the 996 wear its age, what will the maintenance costs on a 12-year-old example be like? Will all the independents be catering for them? Will all the parts be available? Will specialists buy the tools required if prices are still falling? As for where they will settle, just look at cooking 964 values, still coming back, mainly due to a reputation (deserved or not) for high maintenance costs. I was talking to an OPC Service Manager yesterday who said that the 964 is the most expensive 911 to maintain bar none. Didn't think to ask him how he thought the 996 would stack up, that will be my next question. Taking the issue of possible maintenance costs into account then, 996's could ultimately be the cheapest used 911's ever...and air heads probably still won't want one [8D]

What a load of old codswallop. As with all Porsches, some will be run until they become uneconomical to maintain, and then inevitably be dismantled for spares, whilst others will be maintained and cared for, continuing to run indefinitely. The best examples of all the 911 variants will always be sought after, and the 996 is no exception. Prices can only be compressed so far.

Well I don't know about that. Take a look at an old 2.7 impact bumper 911 models - hardly a car to set the worl on fire, and probably worth about £1,500 for an old dog - it would cost pretty much the same to restore as a decent 2.7 MFI Carrera, but because it's a Porsche from the days when provenance counted for something you'd be hard pressed to find any example for under £5K. The same goes for basket case 356 models. Why? Limited supply and perceived quality I suppose. People still buy them for more than they're worth and chuck daft cash at bringing them up to scratch - a question of pride? The 996 on the other hand - a different story. Loads sold and with the advent of computerised engine management etc servicing is beyond the scope of most enthusiasts and even independent specialists without the right kit (I spoke to one long long established specialist yesterday who told me that they only work on models up to the 993). Sooner or later this glut of cars is going to be passed on to owners who can't afford £5K+ for a new engine if the RMS gives up. The market will dictate the prices, let's wait & see eh?

So he's content to base his business plan on a shrinking market, then? [ ]

1) I think you are talking about mainly hobby and retirement projects here, and people will lavish all sorts of cash on old Porsches (and other makes) without any thought of the cars eventual value, just for the satisfaction and pleasure of the restoration. 2) I seem to recall my 993 having Motronic DME. So does that mean the 993 is doomed as well? Oh, and a weeping RMS has absolutely no proven link to engine failure. They are cars, for goodness sake, to be driven and enjoyed. They shouldn't be considered as investments.

Hello all I have watched prices on 911 for the last two years. I know what I am after is only a 911/930 turbo black 87-89 model. But people are still being greedy and asking silly money for there 911 even late 80's one, like the one I am after. After four very poor PPI's on so called good ones I know how much junk is out there. I could be wrong but the market has gone dead and people will have to drop the prices to sell their cars. Still looking myself for a good one. SEE YA

I'm not going to disagree with you. Drive mine like I stole 'em every time! And let's remember the price of unit trusts can go up as well as down!! Just lucky that the only speed cameras we have up here are mobile and they have to post their locations in advance on the internet so we can plan our journeys! Going back to my earlier comment about 928 territory though, have a look on eBay or in the Autotrader and you will find loads of examples of tired unloved 928s languishing outside on drives, going for a song in various states of disrepair. Abandoned because they are just too complex to attempt to fix or the cost of doing a decent job is astronomical (new fuseboard - £700 Sir). I fear the same for the 996. Early 911s don't seem to get the same treatment - as you say satisfaction and pleasure, but also within the capability of a competent home mechanic. The 993 is considered by many to be the last of the 'proper' 911 models and there were relatively few built so maybe they will be cherished just that little bit more. It's an old joke hijacked for this thread but the only way to make a small fortune out of a new Porsche is to start with a large one. You pays your money, you takes your choice. If you want new cars you have to be prepared for depreciation. As to that specialist not working on late model cars, that's his look out.

996 prices are not being compressed, nothing is squeezing them, they are quite happily falling all on their own. There is no such thing as price stability in a buyers' market and these are the conditions faced by run-of-the-mill 996's, F360's or whatever you care to mention at this point in time. The price of anything is all about two things: supply and demand. How much demand are people anticipating for 10+ year old 996 C2's in the years ahead? All the independents I talk to tell me that the demand will not be there for the cars that have yet to come to market, thus prices for average cars will continue to come back. Only when demand begins to outstrip supply will prices turn and that is a long way off for lots of 911's. Average early Boxsters now trade at £13k or less for standard mileage and they were £40k new. Rest of the vanilla moderns, including the 996, headed exactly the same way though at varying rates. 15 per cent has come off book trade on a half-mile 99V 996 C2 in the last 12 months and it won't be much less than that in the next 12, possibly less for the 12 after that, which will take book trade to just under the £21K mark in 24 months, and I know a few traders who would say that is a bit generous (the cynics). Happy to have a beer-money-bet with anyone on this and equally happy to be proved wrong, though that's not gonna happen [8D] lol

Of course prices are being compressed. It's the volume of new models that are pushing down the prices of used cars. For example, the new 987 Boxsters , which are typically £35k - £45k new, have made it very hard for anyone to sell a late 986 Boxster, so prices have fallen below these figures. This has a domino effect on the prices of earlier models until, as you say, an early 2.5 can be bought for £13,000. But the Boxster, even an early one, is still a terrific car, so it opens up the market to someone who might have otherwise bought a 964, Carrera 3.2 or 968, thereby compressing the prices of these cars, which in turn will compress the prices of 911SCs, 944s etc. The rubbish cars will fall out of the market and the prices of the best examples will firm up as they become more scarce. This isn't unique to Porsche, it is happening across the market. With regard to what will happen in 10 years time; well that's all pure conjecture. The chances are that road pricing and the price of oil will be the major influencing factors and, from what I read, it doesn't favour our (esp China and the US) current rates of consumption. In the meantime we should enjoy our cars, afterall it may never happen.

The words are different but the scenario is the same. You are saying prices compress and presumably also decompress, I am saying demand comes and goes as cars enter and exit price ranges. Supply and demand patterns and therefore future values are not conjecture, we are seeing differing levels of demand right now and the people that will be selling the cars in the future are already expressing a negative sentiment towards the 996. The only way to get past the trade BS on what they do and don't want is price. 993 and 996 prices both coming down but some traders are paying well into book on decent 993's as the supply is patchy while demand remains steady (though not off the scale). I don't know of one trader who has paid into book for a 996 this year regardless of condition. Nice condition is close to or at book, anything else way off.. It's the eternal seesaw of supply versus demand. When it comes to price, that's all there is.

Whilst it is unfortunate and irritating to see what you have bought depreciate, it is the way of things. Buy what you like, drive is as often as possible, then sell when you are bored with it. Take what happens on the chin. Cars are not an investment. If you buy something rare, you don't want to use it and are scared of having it stolen - so you can't win. We're heading for a recession, so prices of everything are sliding. Things are only worth what someone will pay for them.

Very well said - my sentiments exactly.

Well said Stuart! Whats the point in all this doom and gloom. Just get the damn thing out and give it a blast - that'll put a smile back on you! If people are that worried about residuals, then I suggest they sell up now, cut their losses and let the rest of us enjoy enjoy our 996's (and 986's) in peace!![ ]

Quite right Peter. Any car is worth only what the owner or someone else is prepared to pay for it. A car is a commodity and the laws of supply and demand apply toa Porsche as much as any other 'consumer' item. The whole point of a car like this, be it 911, 968, 924, 944 or Boxster is to get out there and enjoy an exceptional driving experience. If an owner buys a car like that as an investment then he [or she] might as well put it into an air conditioned garage and never use it, hoping for that day when its' value will exceed what was paid allowing for inflation etc. Alternatively, and instead of a mere pipe dream of future riches, the car could be used for enjoyment. Very few cars ever appreciate in value over time. A Porsche is for driving, for goodness sake!

Sorry, having started this topic I feel obliged to butt in: I don't see anyone here saying they bought their 996 with a view to make a profit out of it. We were talking about the alarming rate of depreciation, not depreciation v profit. Sorry, do carry on. Excellent debate so far.

The population of 911s is increasing because more cars are added each year than are scrapped for whatever reason. At the same time, that body of drivers world-wide who might consider 911 purchase is probably decreasing - the baby boomers are moving towards retirement, the 911 might be thought of as an old design with lots of newer alternatives to choose from, the 911 might also be seen as too commonplace and there may be other demographic factors involved. All that means too many cars chasing too few potential owners and the only thing for prices to do is head south. When that happens, the impact will be greatest on the least desirable cars, so that yellow early 996 with patchy history, scuffed wheels and in need of a respray is going to suffer. Porsche has a problem keeping the 911 a must-have object of desire when everything else is taken into account and I think the Cayman is only going to hurt 911 sales, both new and resale.

Actually, I think the reverse is true. The 911, in most of its variants, is still hugely desirable and no one else has yet matched its clever 'formula'. The 911 is the world's most successful junior supercar, with a racing pedigree, classic design, superb engineering, extremely practical for every day use, fabulous performance, handling and brakes, reasonably economical to run with pretty robust trade-in values and, from the 996>, a decent 2+2 configuration. Nothing else is as enduring and there is still a huge market out there of people who want to own a 911, whether new or used. The Cayman will be a success, I'm sure, but it will always be a junior 911/up market Audi TT, and it won't appeal to everyone. I agree that Porsche need to get the supply levels right and, yes, they will lose some customes who want greater exclusivity. The present price softening is an industry wide problem for which over-supply is a significant contributor. There was a time when we used to have a 'boom and bust' economic cycle that cleared everything out every few years, so supply never got too great. Now the economy seems to be less volatile, with 'soft landings' rather than deep recessions, so the malaise may continue for a while. But do keep this in perspective. A 2002 C2 996, for example, that was c.£60k new, and now worth c.£40k, has only depreciated by 12.5% pa. Hardly a 'price crash'.

I just sold my '86 911. Cost me 20K with 70K on the clock 7 years ago, sold it for 10K with 200K on the clock and I reckon another 100K to go mechanically if the new owner looks after it. I can't think of many other cars which would have only cost me that in depreciation for 7 years and 130K trouble-free miles. And I wouldn't have had 1/10th the fun! A lot of what has been holding 2nd hand prices up for the last 5 years has been demand from people remortgaging and buying their dream car from increased value in their property. That bubble has more or less burst now, so 2nd hand prices are going to drop.

Hello, I agree good for me as still looking for a good 930 so much junk out there. SEE YA

Porsche depreciation! You'd be scared with BMW depreciation. Comparing a new M3 vs a '99 C4 last year I checked out a '96 M3 to see how things would go if I decided to hang onto the car. Something like a 75% drop in 7 years......crazy. Went for a 993 .... (from an OPC) because I liked it and it was a lot lot cheaper than a 996 back then. When facelift 996's get to £25K - £30K I'll be in the queue - great cars, great bargains. It's not just the air cooled noise & smell that makes a 911 a 911, it's the way it rides, steers, stops and feels - that still makes the 996 a 911 worth having.

Facing the possibility of the business I work for closing I looked into how much I could get for my 996. Typical trade figure given was £21K, with a retail on the forecourt of £25K (independant specialist); whilst I accept prices do fall I was shocked as to how much 996's are falling (especially in 6 months of ownership). Whilst I did not buy the car to make money, it woud good to think that you can pay off the loan faster than these prices are falling !!! Surely the 996 prices will bottom out ? I hope so ! Mark

Mark, The 99 C4 I looked at 18 months ago was up for £45K at the OPC - only a year newer than your 98 C2..............?

I have had a wanted ad on here for a while, and I was seriously looking for something post 2002 for £40k. I am confident that I am looking around the right price, but I only had one contact. The sad thing is that I genuinely wanted to buy a car and was prepared to move quickly for the right car. Particularly sadly, I am going to spend my money on something non-porsche and consider looking for a porsche again in the new year. Can somebody tell me how the trade get cars, when they are prepared to pay less that I was prepared to pay. I suppose this leaves me somewhat disillusioned.

Obviously I don't know the specfics of any transactions you were dealing in.. but I'd guess that seller's perceptions are that dealing with the trade is 'safer' and easier than dealing with a private buyer, and the potential problems that can arise. The extra risk involved in dealing with private buyers, test drives, high value transactions....warrants the slightly higher than trade buy/sell price?

The 'trade' (and specifically OPCs) have a captive audience. When someone wants to upgrade to a new, or nearly new Porsche, they generally go to a smart glossy OPC. Most such people normally have a part exchange, need finance etc, and they find it more convenient to accept a low offer than to try and sell their car privately. In fact many people will be more interested in the monthly repayment figure than the true costs of the transaction. OPCs now seem to be working on quite wide margins. Typically they will want to make a £5000 profit on the sale of a used 996, after all their preparation costs. Buying privately at this level does require a great deal of care, but can lead to significant savings.

I agree with everything you have said, but, in the event that I had more than one interested party, I would have had the opportunity to actually testify about the test drive thing etc. The fact that I had almost no responses only goes to show me that owners are indeed sucked into the convenience part by the dealership, and at the same time complain about the margins the dealers are making. I personally will not buy from a dealer if possible, as I know that some dealers simply buy low, do a perfunctory valet/service/whatever, add a warranty (possibly) and sell high. I was actually hoping that this forum would make it possible for some existing owner to sell their car at a price better than that offered by a trader, and at the same time I would get a good car. How hassle free could that be ? Is that too much of a tall order ? I have now bought something else, and will continue to watch the market. I cannot comment on whether or not I will actually buy a Porsche again, but there is always the possibility.

Interesting comments. Tried to sell me 997 S privately at £67,500 Jan 05 (£4k off the list) 3k miles.With no takers. Local OPC offered me £61k but rang around other OPCs and got £64k. PX my 996 C4 Jan 02 Facelift with 10k miles when I bought the 997 and got £42.5k for it and it was still the current model !! As I run them privately took the decision to buy second hand and older so have a 89 3.2 Supersport cabriolet with only 22k on the clock which only depreciated by my calculations 50% in 16 years or £1500 pa .Took some finding though. Strikes me that the more you pay and the newer the vehicle,the greater the depreciation. No comparison with my old E type convertable purchased 1985 for £4,500 and sold in the recession of 93 for £33,000 plus number plate at £3,000 now thats inflation !!!!

Three thoughts: 1. This Forum is still quite small, so you can't expect a big response. 2. There probably aren't all that many 996s for sale that meet your specific criteria. 3. Judging from this and other threads, many 996 owners who may have considered 997s (or other performance cars), may have now decided to keep and enjoy their 996s.

Prices are definatly heading south... interesting to see that the 996 turbo has lost so much money. You can pick one up for £45k now with 60k on the clock FSH. Shocking! I nearly traded in for one but now when I look at them they do seem a bit dated... sorry just my impression. When the new 997 Turbo comes out I am sure the prices will fall further. Sorry again... Right now I am flirting with the idea of getting a Ferrari 360. Prices start at £51k for a LHD model and £62k for RHD. Even with the new F430 the 360 prices has not gone down as much... probably due to the waiting list. Or... how about a Lamborgini Gallardo 2003 plate LHD for £75k!!!!!!!! [:-] A year old 997 LHD is £52k!!!! not bad... It would be better if the exchange rate was what it was 3 years ago i.e. 1.65 euro to the pound. If exchange rates change in that way I am sure that it would make a LHD an interesting prospect. (Just out of curiousity would it be too expensive to convert a LHD 997 to RHD? Seeing how car production is made more simplier to reduce production costs i,e, many parts applicable for many different versions it shouldnt be that expensive). Any opinions????

P.S> I wouldnt be surprised if a tuning company brings out a £15grand tuning package (i.e supercharger et al) for the Cayman to have the same performance as a 997 turbo. Better chassis..... better engine positioning.... what more could u want... [8|]

Watch prices this month. What with the new registration, I expect to see a significant increase in the number of 996's entering the market. When that happens, you can rely on the supply v's demand price pressure. Maybe the fact that I had so few responses will actually have worked in my favour after all.

Been very interested in the thread as I have been contemplating jumping from my 993 C4 to a 996 cab. A total change of direction, but the one thing holding me back is the apparent freefall in 996 values. This has left me with a dilemna of holding on to the 993 or taking the plunge, in the knowledge that if I had held onto the 993 the financial loss would be much less[&:] Anybody fancy a swap[ ]?

Depreciation is the main cost with almost any relatively new car. If you want a new, or newish, car then you have to accept the inevitable. Despite this thread, 996s are no worse than any other prestige car and, in fact, better than many. If you really want a 996 go for it. Although, IMO, coupe is better than the cab.

If you can read this bit about "Power Crazed Germans" you will see that someone's lost £70k on a Merc CL600 in 3 years!! Makes Porsche ownership seem eminently sensible.....

Can't see myself in a coupe as I would be comparing it against the 993 and I don't want to start yearning to go back, hence the reason for a cab.

William Get the Cab!!! They are excellent and certainly the best Porsche I have ever owned or driven. Nothing to beat it!! You won't be disappointed or have any regrets.