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YOUR RESEARCHEngine ticking advice
Reported or suspected cause
why the failure keeps
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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0
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0
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Reported cause · Original poster
The problem or issue is why the failure keeps on happening again.
Leading evidence: 'why the failure keeps' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'why the failure keeps' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check make sure is not coming' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I can't discuss the specifics of this vehicle since it is ongoing litigation with the warranty company, but the differential bearings were verified bad and replaced three times under warranty for noise, and the differential housing was replaced also the last time.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I replaced all three chain tensioners and it helped but occasionally she�ll still tick for 30 seconds after a cold start.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I can't discuss the specifics of this vehicle since it is ongoing litigation with the warranty company, but the differential bearings were verified bad and replaced three times under warranty for noise, and the differential housing was replaced also the last time.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Anyway right away I replaced the washer and top oil off with 0W40, the people that had the car and couldn�t get the oil washer also used Fuchs oil because that was available to them, I top it off with Mobil 1 and drove another 1700 miles before oil change.
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Suggestion
I have seen that with "bulk oil" before ( and I think it's sleezy), but Automotive Dealerships and repair shops don't use bulk oil for differentials and trans fluids (except maybe Ammco or trans only shops) , so I think this oil came from a bottle, I'll know in a few days when the "new sample analysis" comes back..
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I can't discuss the specifics of this vehicle since it is ongoing litigation with the warranty company, but the differential bearings were verified bad and replaced three times under warranty for noise, and the differential housing was replaced also the last time.
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Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
Engine was disassembled a year later for a cracked head, bores were still not scored.
Would like to know your recommendations advice. As far as I can tell is original engine 99 3/98 production. Texas squirrel who is as
nice as you can be ran the durametric and manometer on the car last Saturday. Everything is great no issues with fuel trim cam deviations, car has never been over rev 2. Now it has a ticking noise, since I have driven 3,000 miles in my opinion sometimes is a little less and sometimes is more. No codes. No black smoke or soot on pipes. A Porsche tech who I want to use as my Indy help me correct a few things and we did the oil change. Oil had maybe 3,500 miles on it and it looked pretty clean. After I drove the car home from Wisconsin to Texas almost 1,300 miles I noticed oil leak. They didn�t use the aluminum washer when they put back the oil drain plug. That was ok to me because I was able to get more money off purchase price off. Anyway right away I replaced the washer and top oil off with 0W40, the people that had the car and couldn�t get the oil washer also used Fuchs oil because that was available to them, I top it off with Mobil 1 and drove another 1700 miles before oil change. I didn�t analyze the oil because I had mixed oils in crankcase, I did looked and touch oil in filter housing and also I opened the filter and ran magnet trough pleats. Everything looked great. Car is solid lot of work was done to Ac, clutch rear main and all that only 25,0000 miles ago, new front rear brake pads. No oil leaks and all fluids were flushed and changed at Porsche dealership less than a year ago. So after watching Jakes bore scoring episodes I think it may be bore scoring piston claking. Texas squirrel recorded the noise. 1. Should I get spark plugs checked make sure they are tight, coils and plus were changed 5,000 miles ago. 2. Should I get exhaust checked make sure is not coming from there. 3. Should we borroscope . The noise is from bank two. I have nursed a lot of engines from A lot of customers all over the world and have trained between 5,000 to 7,500 people in over 100 countries, previous tribologist, used oil monitoring analyst certified. Tech three, you have a wealth of knowledge, no insult here but I know my stuff too proof is the pudding so here is one of my certificates, anybody�s help suggestions and recommendations would be appreciated.
If you guys need help reading an analysis I�m here to help,
IMHO, you should try to pinpoint the sound using the advice in Part 4 of the Bore Scoring series. Follow Jake Raby's advice on using Mechanic Ears to see if the ticking noise is coming from the cylinders. You should also plan to at least borescope the cylinders that are the loudest, usually #5 and #6. If you're not comfortable borescoping from the sump, then plan to do it from the spark plug holes.
You Tube
This is Luis perfectly fine with me can you post the recording of the ticking sound of my car. I can record some when I get home but your phone is a lot newer and better than mine. Will appreciate it a ton.
Does the sound go away shortly after starting the engine? I frequently hear of people mentioning that their �99 does this occasionally, myself included. I replaced all three chain tensioners and it helped but occasionally she�ll still tick for 30 seconds after a cold start. No oil burn, no sooty pipes, no smoke, and no drama on my UOA over the past 6 years. 9/98 build.
All my durametric stuff was great according to Squirrel and normally I don�t hear a tick at start up. I think the previous suggestion about checking or listening to noise with stethoscope could be next step. Hopefully squirrel will load the Video recording of the noise. I would record it and loaded but we are not home. In Austin celebrating my birthday, so I�m driving my F150 super crew. Fixing to go to river bar in San Marcos.
I don't have my glasses on, but I see no insult !! Since you're a Certified Tribologist and do fleet stuff, I do have a question about Nickel PPM in differential lube. Not a Porsche so I'll PM you my question.
no problem , thou by keeping stuff in the conversation thread we all can benefit. Regarding trans and differentials there was a lot of stuff out there. Transaxles sealed for life with synthetic lubricants in it. I remember the bigger one way back when when Eaton road ranger came about, 18 wheelers with half a million miles lubricant change overs on transmissions and 250,000 miles intervals on differentials. After 10 years of those the life of the components was shorten by a bit, but the trucking companies were making a truckload of money do to a lot less downtime. Regarding your issue, we need to understand the part manufacturer metallurgy, then we need to find out OEM acceptable wear level on whatever is their prescribed service interval. Putting that in our perspective Jake always says that he has been studying, working on our engines for years and he says that lake and Charles have the same more or less time experience.
Tech way back when nickel cadmium coatings were used. Just to clarify. I am retired and no longer actively work because my life now basically is cooking, smoking meats, etc, drinking all kinds of crafts beer, managing my money in the market and helping my younger friends who are small business owners acting as their counselor and advisor. Also now I got the Porsche fever. The reason I bought it was because my little sister died in December at age 47, and the Porsche was always on my bucket list. My fast and furious days are gone my last one was a 2004 VWR32 with the HPA twin turbo set up making 665 Ho at the wheels. No I don�t want to track my car I just want to drive it once a week and take it triple digits ever so often. Cheers everybody I just ordered another IPA.
Living the life my man, smoked meats and IPA, is there really anything else needed? Condolences on the passing of your sister at such a young age, that's a heart wrenching loss, but I'm sure she smiles down as you and your family every minute.
God speed man, and best of luck with your findings as you dig deeper into the ticking issue.
That's the problem, the OEM manufacture doesn't publish the metallurgy or the expected PPM of the elements found in the used lube oil. I can't discuss the specifics of this vehicle since it is ongoing litigation with the warranty company, but the differential bearings were verified bad and replaced three times under warranty for noise, and the differential housing was replaced also the last time. The noise is present again and seems to be coming from the carrier bearings, the lube oil analysis shows high nickel (40 PPM) 240 ppm iron, and the viscosity is low for grade used (75W140. My analysis is the bearings have failed again and the lube analysis backs this up with high Nickel and low viscosity. Your opinion?
sorry for the delay long night last night. 1. How low is the viscosity??? 2. Because of the viscosity grade I�m assuming you are talking about a synthetic gear oil. Can you tell me how long was the gear oil in service? 3. Have you analyze a new sample of the gear oil and compare that to the used oil? Remember a diff is
sealed so if the viscosity is low we have to find out what caused that? Did it shear out or did a contaminant came in an caused the viscosity to thin out. I have seen failures where the oil was
actually out of spec from the manufacturing. Even in the best lubricant blending facility they don�t do 100 percent quality control. I have seen cases where the actual new lubricant had particles from the blending process. Fluid cleanliness is extremely important especially in a hydraulic system. I have also seen other cases where systems where reassemble and they were not cleaned properly so the same failure happened because the contaminants where already inside the system. On average one particle lets use dirt (silica) as an example, when that particle hits a metals it produces 7 additional particles (let�s call these the babies) and then they keep reproducing. There is a component life equation it has to do with ingress particles, plus produced particles then you have removed particles (what your filter removes). The easiest and cheapest way to increase the life of a piece of equipment is filtering prior to introducing the fluid in. Regarding your diff and manufacturing info, if you follow Jake he stress the fact that the used oil analysis lab did not have that much experience with the engines that is true a lot of times. I would use a lab that has the knowledge, as an example catterpillar had their own use oil analysis program because that lab was extremely knowledgeable on how those engines behave. As of today there are big labs out there some of them analyze as many as 1,000 samples a day. The comments on an analysis are normally computer generated, but the real good labs have a person IE
Certified analyst review, add edit the comments. A final comment there could be a possibility that the bearings have a manufacturing flaw and tend to fail normally in the same way every time.
Not really the info/answers I was looking for. I am looking for conformation of my analysis and/or information on why it doesn't add up/hold water.
I'm not a metallurgist or chemist, but have been exposed to a lot of it through my years of training. Especially at Porsche, they are big into using alloys and teaching the Techs/using the Techs to help "sell the product" through knowledge/details, a lot of which are not needed to just "fix the car", but none the less are taught. .
This is what I THINK I know, if there are any metallurgist reading that can confirm or deny (with additional info), please speak up.
It's general knowledge the ring gear and pinions usually are made from 8620,4320,or 9310 steel, 8620 has ~1% Nickel (Ni), 4320 has ~ 2%, 9310 has ~ 4%. The higher the nickel the better the grade steel.
Stainless Steels usually have a much higher Ni content up to 20% and are used a lot in bearing material of tapered roller bearings like used in differential carrier bearings.
With the UOA showing 40ppm Nickel and 240ppm Iron, that would indicate a very high quality steel with ~18% Ni ,like what is used in roller bearing material, not what is used in ring gear and pinion material. Since there is no filtering on differentials, (these particles are too small to be caught by filters anyway), they will remain suspended in the lube untill drained at 120k miles ect.
This lube has ~ 20k miles on it. The viscosity is 16.4cts @ 100c 75w140 grade.. There is a new sample at the lab now being tested to confirm viscosity of the new lube.
If you have any other explantion of the Nickel content, please present it.
PS: sorry for the "off topic" drift, but since you are a Tribologist and it's your thread, I figure you don't mind too much.
Do to the nickel content I do concur with you that the bearings are going bad or have gone bad. It�s hard to tell what with limited data. The problem or issue is why the failure keeps on happening again. Using the 996 engine example the issue with scoring was the locasil so to fix it Nicasil. Anyway, what I was asking about the new lube was the one that was actually put in before the failure. If I read the info right it said 20,000 mile on a synthetic gear oil that is nothing, the lubricant shouldn�t have degrade in that use range at all, unless it was a pos.
I can't mention the brand name, but the previous RO listed it as 75W140 Synthetic @ $22 a liter, lol , I have a new sample at the lab now for analysis..
I may not be pointing something that you haven�t seen but since I did a lot of business in Latin America a bunch of shops that used Valvoline where painted as Valvoline and billed customers for Valvoline lubricants including nice car dealers, (Audi, mb), had other crap stuff in their bulk tanks. And by the way during my active time that stuff also happened herein the continental us, hell I even caught a customer repackaging heap stuff Walmart or below in Valvoline 5 gallon pails. The customer had become real good friend with one of our CSR who was selling him empty new Valvoline pails.
I have seen that with "bulk oil" before ( and I think it's sleezy), but Automotive Dealerships and repair shops don't use bulk oil for differentials and trans fluids (except maybe Ammco or trans only shops) , so I think this oil came from a bottle, I'll know in a few days when the "new sample analysis" comes back..
Did that diff calls for ep (extreme pressure gl-5). If it only required mild ep (gl-4) and gl 5 was used, once the oil gets hot it starts attacking some of the metallurgy, this is complete different than on an engine. Not knowing diff type and what was original recommendation from manufacturer I�m guessing. Also If this is older type diff, maybe is really not compatible to new chemistry.
Sorry, I wasn't tagged so I didn't notice this thread until now.
Here's the recording:
You Tube
Sounds like piston slap to me.
This is underneath bank 2.
I couldn't hear it when I was toward the front of the car, only behind it.
But I'm pretty deaf from shooting firearms and playing with race cars & racing engine without hearing protection when I was younger.
I�m kind of new to this I should have tag you. Anyway I�ll like to talk to you about what I�m thinking and then probably get Justin involved, thanks a bunch.
I appreciate your comment. I�m not registering decibel levels but it seems to be that sometimes sounds better. Anyway what did you do with yours? I have spoken to people that have driven their cars thousands of miles with it. I definitely plan to do the stethoscope to isolate locate it and then probably to have it boroscope. Will appreciate your response.
I drove it for longer than I should have when making this noise then, finally, had it boroscoped. Found #5 & #6 in very bad shape and #4 starting to go as well. Sent to FSI and got a reconstructed 3.8 Street Performer 1 back. Been happy ever since.
#6
About 2,000 miles. Ticking grew louder over this period which was approx. three years as my car "sleeps" in the wintertime. Besides the ticking loudness increasing other signs began to present such as: sooty drivers side tailpipe, spitting oily moisture on first start of day. Finally it threw a CEL for misfire #6 cylinder which I correctly and incorrectly assumed was a coil. The coil was indeed cracked along with two others, however, when the #6 spark plug was pulled and it was bridged with carbon/oil that it was boroscoped which showed the extent of the damage. There are ways to live with this condition, but it will Not go away...
yeah this is irreversible. Right now my car is running like a champ. It�s not using oil. All the fuel trims are great. Cam deviations too. No soot on exhaust clean oil at oil drain. I�m going to drive it year round maybe twice a week. I will do short oil changes and continue to monitor for debris. Maintenance wise the only thing pending may be to replace the serpentine belt, it looks a little old. CRC belt conditioner made it run better. I have a connection thru a family member that was trained in Germany by Porsche. He stated that we could get a well built and balance 3.6 for a lot less than FSI, my relative is semi retired he acts as a consultant to various Porsche racing teams. He also has a white outlaw 356 convertible.
When you get under there with the Stethoscope, listen closely to each of the Cats. I have heard that same noise, rhythm , and tone, come from the internals of the cats coming loose from the outer and knocking with the engine pulse.
The '99's with Lokasil 1 and iron coated pistons are a lot less likely to have bore-scoring than the later Lokasil 2 with plastic coated pistons. Fingers crossed for you...May the Porsche Gods smile on you this time.
Emissions and everything tested like a charm, but what you are saying makes a ton of sense. I wish I was in some of those places Texas included where they would not test emissions.
No over revs according to squirrel all other durametric stuff excellent. Maybe the Porsche gods will be listening finally.
Emissions pass with flying colors.
The ones I have seen with the "noise" coming from the Cats that sounded identical to bore-scoring, the cats were still functioning fine as far as emissions, with no fault codes at all indicated..
If the noise is from the cats, then I�ll be golden as long as they worked and I keep on passing emissions until a couple more years. Do the X pipes get some pretty decent power to this engine?
The X-pipes may give a few extra HP, but it's not noticeable, what is noticeable is a more exotic sound (IMO) from the exhaust...It changes the Timbre of the exhaust note.
I�ll have it look at next time I get in with my guy. Motor mounts are also aftermarket special high end can�t get remember the brand. If I recall correctly I believe they have purple lettering.
as I have said before the noise. Varied. I don�t hear a noise 2 minutes after startup. About when water temp goes to about 120 there is a bit. Then some more once you get to full operating temp. Anyway in my opinion is there was piston slap it would bds present all the time, 4 to 5 minutes after the car is turned off the cays are still tickling and popping. Few videos, rock and roll and Krispy Kreme doughnuts, got a free dozen for my birthday, plus weekly triple digit speed ride. I�ll check if latter with a stethoscope, but I�m inclined to believe Porsche tech 3 was right. Anyway, how far back into production they used lokasil 1 with iron coated pistons.? Happy Sunday to everyone.
I'm not at all insinuating that bore-scoring is not an issue, or is not an issue in this case, I'm just saying before you even "drop the sump" use a Stethoscope to "listen to the cats " ..
I saw a senior Tech at the Porsche Dealership replace an M96 under Warranty for that exact same sound. After the "new crate engine" was installed and cranked, same noise still there. I walked over with my Stethoscope and listened to the cats, yep, bank 2 cat was knocking.
According to Porsche Technical Training P10W , Lokasil 2 and the plastic piston coating (Ferroprint) was introduced on the 996.2 and 986.2 in 2002. But like with many things Porsche I suspect it could have been used in some capacity slightly before the actual production model change.
I have never heard cats make noise myself not that they don't I've never been around one doing it. I can say the noise I heard on his car was EXACTLY what mine sounded like at the start. His further description about "at start then went away and returned when warmed up" Yep exactly. The only way to know is boroscope the cylinders. Good suggestion on the "listen to the cats" first. I hope it is a cat as much cheaper than an engine.
With 45 years in Dealerships, I have seen/heard it all . This 99 996 knocking noise was fixed with SeaFoam (carbon build-up) . Sounds just like a bore-score also. Engine was disassembled a year later for a cracked head, bores were still not scored.
You Tube
I personally have never used sea foam. Also by experience I have seen mechanics take down engines that were misdiagnosed, on a heavy duty commercial fleet an out service truck cost you a bundle. Tech when I commented to you about cheap gear oil in dealerships, I was talking about facilities that have the tank system with the auto guns similar to the quick lubes you sell them in drums. Anyway, sea foam in the engine oil, or are you talking about a spray thru intake. And yes my cats work but minutes after shutdown all kinds of crackling popping noises, I recorded it but since I have never posted anything in You tube I can�t attach it to the thread.
Spraying Seafoam directly into intake, ( with spray can and attachments) is the best and quickest way to clean off carbon from piston crowns. Putting Seafoam in the tank or oil is a slower less effective way to clean carbon from piston crowns which is what we are talking about.
Crackling and popping from cats and exhaust hardware on 996 during cool down is typical and doesn't prove or disprove a problem..
Had to move the cars yesterday since I was smoking some chicken leg quarters and also making a lasagna. Anyway I took the car for a spin thru the whole heat cycle and guess what no ticking noise. I haven�t done the intake clean but I�m going to do that just in case. Today is Friday so probably taking it out again to play some golden tee with my friends and drink 🍺 some draft beer. Wish everyone a great weekend.
Going to Garages and Gearheads in Katy tomorrow?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/lsrp...8293113263510/
I'm planning on going.
I think
@Yogibara
is going too.
Anyone else?
@cun65458
,
@Z996Z
?
Last Saturday. The smallest unit holds 4 cars maybe we could get together and buy a small unit split it in 4�s. I was thinking about buying one car as an investment.
Totally forgot about this but work had me tied up anyway... hopefully will make it out to one of the next G2G's soon. I'll shoot ya a text when work lightens up a bit, we still need to debrief after taking the car up to COTA for Schnellfest a couple weeks ago
Tex squirrel put the CRC GDI on the Intake while I acel�rated the car at 2,000 rpm. After the contents where put thru the the throttle body, I let it soaked for 1.5 hours. Anyway, after I started it it smoked white for about 6 minutes while driving home, after a good run to 130 no more ticking noises. One thing that I noticed was that the coolant temp stayed a little bit cooler even though the ambient temp was 90. Tex squirrel thanks a bunch, Yogi
is probably going to do a video on this whole experience today. Porsche Tech 3 (skip) you really know your stuff. Don�t know where you are but if I�m ever in your neighborhood I go to to take you out for food and beer, Luis
Yep, <<<< (patting self on the back), I have been told by many GM's and SM's that I had Supernatural Powers when it comes to troubleshooting.
But honestly I can "feel" what's going on inside engines whether they are sick, or under extreme stress, or whether they can take more punishment., just like in the movie Ford vs Ferrari where Ken Miles says " she can take more, I can feel it !!" ..I rebuilt my first engine at 11 years old on an Allstate Mo-Ped out of pure necessity with no help or supervision taking two bad motors to make one good engine. It was how I got to school, "pedal power only" was not cool..
I was FoMoCo's top Troubleshooter in the SouthEast Region for a decade back in the 80's before moving on to Mitsu and then Porsche. BTW I was mistaken about the 17 Porsche Certificates, I re-counted and is actually 24 Porsche Certificates, the 17 was all that was accompanied by a CNC Aluminum plate on the big CNC Aluminum Porsche Premier Plaque...
I am" honking my own horn" a bit to pump myself up to get ready for a Deposition as an Expert Witness. The last time I did this, the opposing Attorney made a big deal out the fact I was not a Metallurgist, a Chemist, or a Tribologist even though I referred to common knowledge in those fields as evidence to back up my analysis.
Anyway, glad the Porsche Gods smiled on you and your 996 !!
office wall
Thanks to Porsche Tech 3, squirrel and research yes the ticking is gone. Squirrel saw heard connected the car to the durametric yesterday. He can attest that the engine is just fine. Unfortunately for me my wife is terrified by the car, so even thou I drove it yesterday for almost 100 miles I only took it to 100 once and never exceeded 6,000 rpms. Wife of 18 years and I spent the whole day together. Porsche cars and coffee, then I took her to lunch at chuys and we finished with a concert. Squirrel 🐿 told me yesterday now you just have to drive it.
Off course Took our cooler to the concert Rodeo Clown double IPA 9.5. Last band was a Led Zepellin tribute from Cali, anyway I opened the clown on �Stairway �
I guess she agrees with me about yesterday.
Squirrel 🐿 car and a 1967 912. car is older than me , it looks and runs great unbelievable.
991 Gt3 straight pipes. Sounds sick and the owner rip it when he took off like a bat 🦇 out of hell.
Yes, the ticking is completely gone.
Very pretty green 912.
i enjoyed meeting your wife.
When the GT3 took off, it sounded like a GT3 Cup rally car running through the gears.
It sounded awesome, but I did cringe thinking about the cool oil from setting for an hour or two.
I spoke with the guy. He finds good buys buys them tracks them and he says after 2 years he makes money in them. By the way he was talking and what you mentioned about not waiting for everything to warm up, I wouldn�t buy a car from him.
Is your car still tick free? Probably going to seafoam mine no scoring but, have ticking. Maybe carbon on my combustion chambers hitting piston...not sure.
not sure what it is, it runs strong, but it does tick every so often. It�s not scored. We will be be installing soul headers that a bought from a friend on Tuesday, I�ll be checking all the exhaust , if you find your cause let me know.
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