Cayman?

Can anyone tell me why I dont want to swap my 996 for a Cayman S and no guff about tradition, history or any of that rubbish? The performance seems to be similar to my C4, I bet it handles better and I might even be able to get my golf clubs in it without slipping a disc

Rumours of a Cayman Turbo are pretty interesting as well !

Two tiny seats at the back which kids, nieces, nephews, etc would appreciate [ ]

Which what now? [ ] Who is the car for again? [ ]

Well - for starters it looks hideous, secondly it's got a stupid name. And I don't play golf - it's a good walk ruined. Always found the race track more fun than the golf course. Having said that, I haven't driven one yet, so I ought to reserve judgement till I have. Remember when everyone said that the Cayenne was the biggest mistake that Porsche had ever made when they released it? Over 100,000 sold since the launch, and apparently they now outsell the 911 (but I don't know this for sure). Perhaps the Cayman will do the same? Only time will tell!!

This is all philosophical.... 1st you see it and assuming you like the looks of it, you drive it and then you decide which one fits your needs better... [ ] But I would not buy a Cayenne either, maybe for my wife......[8D]

Mark Bennett>>Which what now? [ ] LOL, No Mark, Mr & Mrs Hirani are pretty happy with the 2 seater Boxster S (for now)... Mark Bennett>>Who is the car for again? [ ] The last time I accompanied my sister to pick up my Nephew at his school, I saw at least 2 996s and a 997 on the school run...

Dr.P. Good point - how was the Cannonball by the way, did you actually go in the end? Can't say I remember seeing a black 996 when I was there.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. My advice would be to make your own mind up as to what you want and to hell with what others including me think. Which ever way you decide, enjoy!

It's not all about out and out performance. Remember the 928? more than a match in every way for the 911 of the day it was intended to replace but that didn't happen in the end. Unfortunately I suspect it's all a simple marketting exercise. I don't buy into this 'A different Porsche to suit all ages' marketting rubbish, just like all other motor manufacturers Porsche are just after market share and need a good model portfolio to exploit the different market sectors. They saw a gap in the market: they needed a car to bridge the £45k to £65k market sector and hey presto the Cayman was born!! I'm sure it was as simple as that. They could have marketed a simple 'Boxter with a roof' but it would have had to be cheaper than the Boxter because generally the convertable version of a car is more expensive than the roofed one. Sorry to be so cynical but either way it's looking like a damn fine car.

Maybe if they start selling lots more cayman's and less 997's then this will help there residuals, well least better then the 996's... Wont it?

Unless the Caymen sells at the expense of prospective Boxter buyers! It's a bit of a shame that the Caymen will probably never be as good a car it could be (or should be) because Porsche will probably hold it back so it doesn't tread on the 911's toes too much. With the new Aston and Maserati squarely aimed at the 911 I can't see Posche wanting to give the prospective 911 buyer even more choice.

I reckon the writing is on the wall for the 911 package. When the Panamerica is released, the 911 2+2 concept will become outmoded. The Cayman looks like the car the 911 should have evolved into...small, neat and lively. It looks like an updated Carrera 3.2 and I want one. I can't see the rear engined Porshe package surviving more than 5 years once the Cayman and Panamerica models are established. The 911 always was an engineering compromise and Porshe have tried to kill it once already. They won't miss this time. This won't stop me eventually trading back from a 996 to an aircooled 911, unless I can't resist the Cayman.

They might, you know. Without Cayman, the buyer has a choice of three cars, one of which is a Porsche. With Cayman, there is a choice of four, two of which are Porsche.

I'm not so sure the 911 will be killed off so easily. There is room enough in the marketplace for the Caymen and the 911 just as there is room enough for the M3, M5 and M6. Either way the 911 still remains the most complete sports car you can buy at any price and it has been for some time. The fact that the engine is in an unorthodox location is merely an engineering challenge for Porsche and ultimately is irrelevant to the driver, who is only bothered how the car drives. And lets not forget that the rearward weight bias of the 911 has also brought advantages to the car like unparalleled traction and acceleration that competitors can only achieve through much larger engines and electronic aids. I think the Cayman is going to be more for the track day enthusiast who wants a smaller, nimble track car and the 911 will remain the trans-continental mile muncher that will square upto the AMV8's, Maserati's and the rest.

Best to wait until the Cayman is launched and can be properly assessed, once the initial 'new model' euphoria has settled down. Also, even though it's heavily related to the Boxster, later production will be probably be better quality than those first off the line, and the more interesting variants will follow. Whether it is 'better' than a 996 remains to be seen. It will probably be different in the same way that the 986/987 differs from the 996/997. We have both and couldn't say that one is better than the other, although the rear seats do come in very handy. Also, must say that I prefer 2wd to 4wd though, and lower kerb weight really benefits most Porsches. If your 996 is a relatively late model (facelift?) then you have a £60-70k (albeit currently worth c£40-50k) that you would be trading-in for a £45-50k car.

Porsche will probably hold it back so it doesn't tread on the 911's toes too much. The 911 is not just an engineering compromise. It's also a marketing one that Porsche may well want to resolve. the 911 will remain the trans-continental mile muncher that will square upto the AMV8's, Maserati's and the rest. I think the trans-continental mile munching will be just what the Panamerica will be aimed at. There's an old engineering adage 'If it looks right, it is right' and if the Cayman goes as well as it looks and takes off as the best sports coupe money can by, I think this will give Porsche the courage to try, once again, to unshackle themselves from the 911 legacy. Don't forget, the Boxster package was designed to be cheaper to produce than the 911 at a time when the company nearly went under. Economies of scale may well mean that the Cayman becomes really profitable so Porsche could afford a bold move like dropping an icon. It will be interesting to see. As has been said, we don't know what the Cayman will be like.

This post is the most sensible analysis I've read ANYWHERE for years. Well done that man for saying the unsayable. [ ] Time will indeed tell. John H

Kind words...thanks! Just so that no-one thinks I am a 911 hater, I only got into this game because a mate had a 911 SC and I was totally converted after one drive with him. As a former motorcyclist (gave up when kids came along...too damn dangerous) I never thought that I would get the same visceral feel from anything on 4 wheels. The 911 completely shattered that theory and I bought a 3.2 Carrera on the strength of that one experience. I loved it to bits but my best friend and partner hated it so we traded up to a 996 cab. Fabulous car, perfect as a his'n'hers plaything but it misses that rawness that makes the aircooled 911 so compulsive. I'd love a 3.2 based '73 RS replica but until I've driven a Cayman, I'll reserve judgement. Safe to say that, to me, a Porsche is the ultimate sports coupe and if I could have my choice I'd go for an updated 3.2. IMHO, the Cayman looks like it fits that bill better than a 997 (if the 997 is an evolution of the 996)

I too am a motorcyclist, and also a 964 owner, and indeed I understand why people love old air cooled cars so much, as indeed I love mine ... BUT ... I am also aware that it has it's inherent design flaws, but woe betide you in Porsche circles if you dare to point out that the ultimate motoring icon may be anything less than perfect. [ ] I simply happen to like Porsche engineering, and I'm quite open minded about quite where in the chassis they choose to fit the engine. I had a 968 before the 964, I like Boxsters and 914's, and I'd have a Cayman in a heartbeat if I could afford one. I have little doubt that the engineers at Porsche have the same attitude, but their product planners will get them to build whatever makes a profit! Cheers John H

As to your last line, John, thats why I think the Cayman will be a key product. It looks like it should live up to the sporting tag but be a lot cheaper to build than the 911. As to your other comment about Porschisti being touchy about criticism, my tin hat is firmly on but no rocks have bounced off it....yet! Bikes. Here's my history. FS1E BSA Starfire Honda CD 175 ...arrghh! (necessity) Triumph T100 Suzuki GS750 Ducati 860 GTS Yamaha XS 750 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk II....perfection but replaced in affection by 911 (aircooled). Dream Porsche Garage. '89 3.2 Carrera presented as '73 RS in Gulf colours. 944 Turbo with Chevy LS-1 V8 conversion.

Cayman cheaper to build than 911? ... I doubt it. If you think back to the first Boxsters and 996, they were to all intents and purposes the same car, but with the engines mounted differently. There is huge commonality of parts which Porsche would rather we did not concentrate on, and this carries on today to the 987, 997 and Cayman. Even the engines are essentially the same, just with different amounts of air in the cylinder bores. I would think the build costs of a Boxster must be pretty similar to the build costs of a 997. Therefore, if a Boxster is profitable, just how profitable must a 997 Carrera be? My point being that even if there were technical reasons to kill off the rear engined line, they will continue to make it as long as there is a demand, and a substantial profit margin. Bikes? How about this lot ... Honda Revere 600, BMW K75s, BMW R80 ST, BMW R65LS, Honda Helix, Honda VLX400, Honda Transalp 650, Harley ElectraGlide Standard, and my current bike is a Honda PC 800. Cheers John H

Blease, have you driven a boxster? before writting off the 911 into history i suggest you do so. That said the time has come when those buying new 911's have'nt a clue as to why the 911 has stayed with us for 40+ years. They have no feel for why it's different (and probably could'nt tell the difference from the Merc, bimmer or whatever they had the month before or the aston they'll have next week)and prefer to look at performance figures instead So now I guess you could be right .

Hi Laurence, yes I test drove a Boxster S before going for the 996 Cab. Why did I choose the 996? Well, I don't really like the looks of the Boxster and, yes, I thought the extra seats may come in useful. How often have I used them? Perhaps 3 or 4 times in 18 months. Underlying all that is that I am a 911 nut and couldn't really countenance the idea of trading a Carrera 3.2 for a Boxster. How was the Boxster to drive? Fast, fluid, competent but anodyne. Like driving a souped up Golf (here come the rocks!!). Is the 996 better than a Boxster? I think so, but then I'm biased. But the Cayman tickles my fancy. I'd love to hear some qualified points about production costs but as I understand it, the costs of the Boxster are lower because the rear suspension is easier to engineer than a 996. However, the higher cost of the 996/997 probably covers this difference, so it may be an irrelevant point. I think your point about the younger generation of drivers not caring so much about the 911 legacy is well made. Maybe we should ask Colin Belton to arrange a poll on the Ninemeister website asking whether people think the arrival of the Cayman is the beginning of the end for the 911.

I think you've summed up all the reasons for the cayman not killing off the 911 in your first paragraph and all the reasons for why it might in the second. Also it's not the younger buyer it's the type of buyer has changed. Not tarring the enthusiasts with the same brush you understand.

For many, especially the key 30 to 50 age group with kids, the 2+2 configuration is the 911's USP. There's a huge choice of 2-seater coupes and convertibles and a huge choice of hi-performance saloons, but no one has yet matched the 911's 'complete' packaging - still the world's most practical supercar.. The 911's rear seating was significantly improved for the 996/997 Coupe, but the Cab's rear seats are still quite compromised owing to the hood location.

Seconded. The Cab's seats are indeed compromised, being ideally suited to someone in the 6-8 year old range. Which suits me perfectly. [ ]

Also any new cutting-edge technology will first end up in 911s and then trickle down to Cayman and then Boxster... For example the new Boxster still doesn't offer VarioCam Plus (Just VarioCam)... Not quite up to date with new sports car tech but things like DSG gearbox will no doubt make the debut on the 911s

The Salesman's perspective - from some American Website I've not seen before! --> LINK <-- Front Line: Will the Porsche Cayman Steal Sales from the 911? We turn to Kirk Stingle, uber-salesman for Inskip Porsche of Rhode Island. According to Captain Kirk, the Cayman is not a 911-killer. "A buyer who goes for a new 911 buys it to say he's got a 911. From an ego standpoint, he's got to have the best of the best." Even so, Kirk admits the Cayman's got a lot of people confused"” including him. "The car's got to find its market," Stingle says. "It's shuffling our buyers around a bit." For example, Kirk sees the Cayman's mid-60's price luring customers away from pre-owned previous gen 911's that fall in the $50k to $70k range; or tempting owners of older 993/996 to "trade up" to a new Cayman. Kirk figures either eventuality is not a threat to Big Daddy Carrera"¦ at the moment. "There's not a lot of anything around right now," Kirk says, revealing that Inskip's lot is 911 coupe-less. "So customers are not facing the choice of a 911 or a Cayman on the showroom floor. If the guys in the older 911's trade-in for a Cayman, that'll help us, not hurt us." Meanwhile, Kirk reports that the Cayman is generating conquest sales from other marques, especially 3-Series and "˜Vette owners. Displaying the kind of informed honesty that makes Captain Kirk a living legend in Little Rhody and beyond, he warns all his customers not to over-spec the Cayman and encroach on 911 territory. "Keep it clean: 19" wheels, sports steering wheel, heated seats, short shifter. Remember: once you're over 60k, you're getting close to the price of an entry level 911. You won't see that extra money back."

Wish words

Of course, this is Clarkson's argument about the Boxster...that to own one is to admit that you can't stump up for a 911. However, we have yet to see the Panamerica in the flesh, which is the hard place next to the Cayman rock for the 911 concept. I guess it all depends how lardy and non-sporty the Panamerica is. Nice pictures though. Has anyone seen the Porche Cayman website that has it whizzing along in a tunnel and you can view it from all angles and zoom in and out? Yummy!

Seems a lively thread to put my oar in. You see guys there is a time and place to drive ANY porsche. I am with you all, but if your need is to put golf clubs in a car and you want a modern Porsche than the Cayman is great!!! Having said that a 928 GTS wouldn't go a miss either!!! 911's are great, like Lawrence says no car can stick around for 40 years and not be great. Then again ever taken out a BoxsterS on a sunny day round a few windy roads with a beautiful woman sitting next to you , listening to the Who song , Who are you! If not ..... you haven't lived!!! Anyway we are on the list for a Cayman , my wife will have one if she likes it or not. Good luck with everyone and their cars, and hey like Geoff997 says we all love Porsche's , early 911's to Cayman's to 997's. Hmmm , I need to find more garages!!! Johannes ALLL Round Porsche nutter

You may be right to go for the caymen...........the continued dropping value of the 996 !!!!.

Porsche won't kill the 911. It is hugely profitable, comes out top in all the reviews, and has a fair amount of life left yet. It is good business for them to broaden the range. The 911's share of their shipments may fall, but I don't see it dying any time soon. As long as they ship enough to keep it viable then it will continue. The only real reason I see for it to die, is if the format becomes uncompetitive in racing, as I've mentioned before. It is the platform for racing at the moment and in the foreseable future, so it will attract buyers. When it is not the platform for racing, then it may face more of a challenge, since it will just be trading on nostalgia. What may happen as a result of broadening their offerings, is the large number of variants may be reduceed. Do we need C2, C4, C2S, C4S, C2 cab, C4 cab, C4S cab, Turbo, Turbo cab, Turbo S, Turbo S cab, GT3, GT3 RS, GT2? They will have to rationalise this, which is good. The Panamera will be the mile muncher, with comfort and GT credentials. This should leave the 911 to become more hardcore. Which is good. The Boxster is, to quote Porsche, "a lifestyle" car. The Cayman is in a curious niche, but if it looks like causing any problems, they will limit the production numbers. The one thing that a 911 does that nothing else can, is have awesome traction. This advantage makes up for the other disadvantages of the design. It also provides a unique driving experience, which is what sells, and gives that elusive character that all manufacturers look for. A front engined car will not beat it for desirability. The Panamera will depreciate hard, like the large front engined Ferraris.

Two unrelated thoughts - 1) The Cayman may damage residuals of early 996s (like mine) more than the Boxster ever could (because it's a coupe and the marketing is that it's the driver's choice) 2) I wonder what the profit margin on each model is; the extra price of the 911 was always a lot more than the extra build cost over the Boxster, I bet the Cayman's actually cheaper to build than the Boxster.

More doom and gloom on the 996 residual front then. I cant see new 911 buyers going for a Cayman instead because the markets price points are too far apart but for prospective used 996 buyers its a different story. If you've got £50k to splash on a Porsche, a brand new specced up Cayman S looks awful tempting against a 2-3yr old 996, not to mention probably being a better residual bet as well.

Interesting point about racing prowess being a potential saviour of the 911 Stuart. I'm not sure I totally buy into the argument if only because Porsche Board have shown utter disdain for racing heritage with their long withdrawal from Le Mans. Admittedly this was hard decision as they had to find a way of affording a new product range but it shows that, when push comes to shove, the bean counters win over the sporting division. Porsche has evolved away from a sports car manufacturer into a car manufacturer (maybe for good??). I think the traction argument is a better one because it does give the car a unique feel and, in the words of Andrew Frankel in his Sunday Times review of the Cayman, its unique challenge. But will this hold water when the Cayman/Panamera combination is available. The other point about market forces may well be the ultimate answer. For every passionate 911 fan who posts on here, how many uncaring users are there out there who drive the car just because of the badge? I suspect we are in an increasing minority as Porsche evolves into a volume manufacturer.

You got it in a nuthshell there mate! JH

John, Seems like we share a wavelength! 911 forever!

Something else that was noted in the Sunday Times review was the disdain of the designers that Porsche AG Marketing Dept wouldn't allow a LSD in the Cayman as otherwise it would be quicker than a 997 around the twisty bits. Ring any bells of 20 years ago when the potential of the 951 had to be reeled in just in case it overshadowed the 930?[:-] The fact that Porsche has created another black sheep is excellent news. As with the 951 their residuals will probably be pretty poor so prices will drop sufficiently for Caymans to be available for enthusiasts and tunners. I'm looking forward to buying myself a second hand Cayman for my 50th Birthday. By then I might have explored the full potential of the 951 and cheap 911 bashing upgrades will be readilly available for the Cayman. At last, another Porsche I can look forward to owning. [ ]

To answer the original question: It's a GAYMAN who rides a Cayman And besides, a beautiful car it is but it is still NOT a 911.

Seconded. Its not a 911 and never will be. You just didn't have enough money for the greatest car that was ever built Porsche 911

I note this is in the 996 section, so forgive me for intruding. I've ordered a Cayman, wouldn't have bought a 911 (car needs to be either four seats or two, child seats no use to me; and I'm biased against rear-engine layout). So I'm a conquest Porsche purchaser. Love the looks, prefer Cayman to Carrera, though that's a beautiful car too. The drive is great: I'm looking for a car version of a touring motorcycle, I suppose!

You should try a Caterham Superlight[8D]

oldfogey Hi Mate, Sorry, but ive looked at the Cayman from every angle and cannot see how its styling, power, performance, equipment, name etc is better than a Carrera. can anyone help me[:-][8|][>:] Si C4 996

Yes, take your dark glasses off...[ ]

Apparently (according to Autocar) the Cayman need not have turned out how it has. The was a design that had the rear window vertical with rear butresses and a flat cover at the back, like the old 908 (I think it was). Anyway, they decided it would be too claustophobic. While I admit the hatch is more practical and gives more useable space and room, the other design would have been more interesting. As for performance - Boxster S laps the 'Ring in 8:18, 997 Carrera (non-S) in 8:15, Cayman 8:11.

I ride a VFR800i: the Caterham is more Fireblade! Oh, and re looks, firstly beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so we'll always have differences of view. Secondly, the current Carrera has gone a bit bland in my opinion and the Cayman has more excitement. Power to weight, equipment are very close for road purposes unless we go into the higher reaches of the Turbo or GT3. I respect anyone who has one of these, but that's too much temptation for me for road use.

We considered a new Boxster S and Cayman before buying a 5 year old Carrera. The Carrera was both £10K cheaper than a moderately specified Boxster S or Cayman, plus someone had already taken the 50% depreciation on the original list price. This is our first proper sports car and having now driven the Carrera for 2 months, we definitely made the right choice, as the previous owners had really looked after the car and it still looks and runs like new. The plan is to upgrade to a 996TT in a couple of years, then I'll be getting close to matching the sub. 100mph acceleration of my motorbike

Stuart Modified Cayman i think you'll find. Even their marketing manager confirmed it wasn't a normal Cayman.

At the end of the day the Caymen is a Porsche and will be a damn fine car (as all Porshces are and always have been) and will be almost as quick as a 911 in the hands of someone who can drive well enough to get these cars anywhere near their limits (i.e. that excludes the vast majority of us!). However people will by the Caymen for the same reasons that people buy BMW 330 coupe's instead of M3's - because for whatever reason they can't afford or cannot justify the expense of an M3 so the 330 is the next best thing. Would I buy a Caymen? Yes Will I buy one? probably - in a few years time after someone else has swallowed the horrendous depreciation that it will undoubtedly suffer. Why will I buy one? Because I can't afford a 997!! I'm not ashamed to admit it. The 911 is still the car the others want to beat - not the Caymen, and that's the way Porsche want things to stay for the moment at least. If Porsche were not serious about the 911 then why have they put a smaller engine in the Caymen therefore killing any chance of it being a true competitor. It's clearly aimed at a different market sector. Also at £44k it's a rip off. It should be cheaper than the Boxter S. In any case i'm looking forward to the Panamerica - the new 944!

I actually agree with you Scott. Well put. It's a bit of a rip off too at 44k. 0-60 in 5.4 seconds[ ] which is apparently the same as a 10 year old 80,000 mile 993, so well done Cayman engineers. My C4 996 however was average timed at 4.9 secs at Burntwater aerodrome, Essex. I'm sure there ARE many people who can afford a 911 but choose to buy a CaymanS, because there's very little difference in performance. But Jeremy Clarkson started it[ ] I'm sure the Cayman will grow on me. I've asked for a test drive too. So my perception will move from book cover to positive detail....possibly[ ] Simon[ ][ ]

It's also only just as quick to 60mph as my 18yr old 109k mile mildly modified (sub £1k's worth of mods) 944 Turbo. I've not read the Evo article yet but from what I gather the more worrying thing is that they reckoned the 10yr old 993C2 was a match to the Caymen in terms of handling. And the 993 was running 10yr old/80k mile shocks and suspension bushes! We all know that suspension components are not like fine wines in that they don't get better with age so it says more about the 993 than the Caymen!

Is 44K really such a rip off? In comparative terms, the 944 Turbo in its pomp cost as much as a modest sized house. 44k today may just buy you a modest sized garage!

I thnk it's a rip off because it is strategically priced to bridge the Boxter/911 gap. Convertable versions of a car are more costlty to produce and are usually more expensive than their roofed counterparts due to the extra structrure that needs to be built in and the costs associated with the folding roof. Despite the marketing spin Porsche have put on the Caymen it is still a Boxter with a roof on (I don't mean that to sound like it's a bad thing by the way). I realise that the selling price of products don't necessarily reflect their manufacturing costs, i'm sure a 911 isn't that much more expensive to manufacture than a Boxter if at all, but it is a perception thing. What are you really getting with a Caymen that you don't get with a Boxter and is it worth an extra £6k? I know the Caymen has what might be described a rear seats and a hatch back but in reality how usefull are they? I know the back seats in my 944 are next to useless and the hatch might be long but is not very deep which again renders it useless for anyting but the weekly grocery shop and luggage for one. If people are on a economy drive and want to save money over a 911 why don't they go the whole hog and get a Boxter and save even more money? As far as I can see the difference in performance between a Boxter S and a Caymen S is even less than between a Caymen S and a 997 Carrera. I personally prefer a tin roof over a fabric one so would always prefer the Caymen but not if it was going to cost me £6k more. I just can't see what i'm getting for my money.

Scott, I agree about the value for money argument. But then, on those grounds, clearly the standard Boxster is by far the best value for money in the range!

This is something we have always been led to believe i.e. convertables are more costly to manufacturer; we pay extra because of the luxury and perception of having one can justify the extra value; they cannot cost any more when you look at the scale of at which cars are manufactured.

[ ] You said it at the start "Ripped off" financially, otherwise a truly fine sports car

Would you consider the new Z4M a rip off when compared to the Z4 as this seems like the same strategy Porsche has adapted, don't you think? As was Z3M compared to Z3...