Surface Transforms brakes vs PCCB - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

As I'm looking at 991.2 GT3 and GT4RS cars, I see some don't have the PCCB for whatever reason but for me it's a must-have. If I bought one of these for less money I could I think get a brand new set of ST disks and callipers for about 14k -- a lot of money but I do see some have already fitted them. Question: how do they compare in all ways? Especially weight. I'm assuming like any brakes on these cars they're more than adequate for track days and certainly road work power wise.

So many threads online about this. Depends on your use case. Steels are absolutely fine for the road and a lot of track users also go steels for cost reasons. PCCBs look great, no dust etc. But I wouldn’t just focus on it, they actually scare off some buyers as replacements are so damn expensive. I have a GT3 on the way and went steels. The £10k option cost for them now is silly considering how well the steels work. When they were £6k (991.2 GT3) they were a good option.

I understood the conventional approach to be that if you’re going to be doing a lot of track work, get steel brakes, because your pads and discs become consumables. Although ceramic discs are supposed to be good for 100k miles or so on the road, you can chew through them a lot faster on track. And ceramic discs make for expensive consumables.

Surface Transform discs don't require new calipers ... whether the original spec was PCCB or steel ... there is just a spacer to adjust the position of the existing caliber for the new disc size. Regarding performance, my experience is that ST's will significantly outperform PCCB's in terms of longevity and running cost, probably weighing a little less than PCCB's as an added advantage. On my 981 GT4 my PCCB's were half worn on the carboteq measuring device after less than a dozen track days. My ST's were refurbished at a cost of £2500 + vat after almost 100 track days ... and disc pads lasted three times as long because the ST's ran so much cooler than the PCCB's. As for steels, yes they work but you can see the discs being consumed at around half the rate of disc pads, there are no unsprung mass advantages and there is a lot more disc pad dust. It should be said that Surface Transform as a company are not in the best shape ... but I would have no hesitation in recommending them even if you may one day have to return the OEM discs to your car. For interest I may have the only 991.2 GT3RS with a choice of part worn steels / PCCB's / and ST's !! It will be interesting to see the other replies to this question ... P.S. I bought my ST's second hand, they are around because most people don't get near to wearing them out and at the last check Surface Transform were still refurbishing them ... up to five times subject to only wear damage from good use.

Thanks ChrisW, super interesting. For clarity in reply to others I put my PCCB in a box when I bought my GT2 and replaced with steels for <reasons>. But eventually I thought I was being daft so replaced them and the difference was night and day. Both brakes worked fine, but that's completely missing the point, the rotating inertia and reduced sprung mass between as I recall 6kg and 15kg per disk was ridiculous, the car was more nimble feeling somehow, just a much fresher feel. Then yes the dust situation, they were quieter being used hard and unarguably cooler looking... So for those reasons... I'm 100% committed to PCCB, well to ST now as well!

ChrisW. said: Surface Transform discs don't require new calipers ... whether the original spec was PCCB or steel ... there is just a spacer to adjust the position of the existing caliber for the new disc size. Regarding performance, my experience is that ST's will significantly outperform PCCB's in terms of longevity and running cost, probably weighing a little less than PCCB's as an added advantage. On my 981 GT4 my PCCB's were half worn on the carboteq measuring device after less than a dozen track days. My ST's were refurbished at a cost of £2500 + vat after almost 100 track days ... and disc pads lasted three times as long because the ST's ran so much cooler than the PCCB's. As for steels, yes they work but you can see the discs being consumed at around half the rate of disc pads, there are no unsprung mass advantages and there is a lot more disc pad dust. It should be said that Surface Transform as a company are not in the best shape ... but I would have no hesitation in recommending them even if you may one day have to return the OEM discs to your car. For interest I may have the only 991.2 GT3RS with a choice of part worn steels / PCCB's / and ST's !! It will be interesting to see the other replies to this question ... P.S. I bought my ST's second hand, they are around because most people don't get near to wearing them out and at the last check Surface Transform were still refurbishing them ... up to five times subject to only wear damage from good use. They never have been Chris, on the contrary, they seem to constantly lurch from one liquidity shortage to another, but they've managed to keep going. As we've discussed before, a far, far superior product compared to the early, poorly developed PCCB's Porsche foisted upon us 25 years ago.

I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now ‘next gen’ CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used. So far only one track day on them but I’m very impressed.

Porsche's offer on the GT3 (now a £250k car) tells us all we need to know about PCCB track longevity. BUT it's great that there is a defined cost option and that includes calipers too. It does show that Porsche are standing behind the GT3 - as a road car you can track every day. Pity about the 4RS....mind you I'd prefer STs and CTEs offering every day. R

Its good that there are new entrants that can take this CCM technology on and make it work. As for Surface Transforms The product is excellent technically - but the company in UK conditions just can t support it, and customer service/relations it seems - certainly not for aftermarket anyway. They have pivoted to trying to land big OE whale deals.. but then cannot fulfil - as has been said lurching from investor offering to investor offering on the never-never. I CURRENTLY would no longer recommend to buy STs NEW at present - unless they understood - there is NO guarantee of refurb or support. If you can pick up a lightly used set at a discount, thats worth a punt - run them until they die, and then send away for a hopeful refurb. If they can course correct - it would be great - but the proposition they once presented for the aftermaket has been eroded - ST quote only 2-3 refurbs max now.... so I read that as 1 refurb... but think this is down to this UK operation specific aims to ultimately just sell more units - and refurbs diverts from that. For some GT3s - Porsche do a full PCCB replacement for 12k including new callipers front and rear and the rotors. I asked if this was available for 4RS retro fit as it's exactly the same bits but the official answer from Reading is no - at the moment GT3 only. Latest gen PCCBs are working well for most people that don't really track that hard - of course there is the risk of chipping though. But change to better pads and they will be fine for most people These new steels (992GT/718RS) are much better than the old cross drilled so from life pov would do just fine - as long as Porsche don't keep jacking the prices. Edited by TDT on Monday 14th July 12:17

twells99 said: I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now next gen CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used. So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed. These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors. Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time. Who did you source them from please?

993rsr said: These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors. Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time. Who did you source them from please? There are a few shops that sell CTE including Tegiwa and Promod Performance but I bought directly from CTE. I couldn’t find a ton of info about them online as this is a relatively new product line for them so I contacted them directly. They’re very responsive and answered a LOT of questions. They keep stock for the popular disc dimensions and then custom machine the bells (which only takes a few weeks). The cost was somewhat lower than ST as well.

Had been following these on Rennlist : https://rennlist.com/forums/performance-modificati... All seemed a bit hyped and the research/development process shorter than I'd expect. Sure, you can duplicate many miles of braking on a brake dyno, but even that takes time when establishing best methods for bedding in pads and experimenting with different pad compounds. And if they can find me a 360mm x 32mm steel OE Porsche disc that weighs 8.6kg, I'll buy a truckload of them !! Most would be closer to 11 or 12kg. From the Rennlist thread : "For an example of weight savings, our 360x32mm discs weigh only 5.6kg including bell. An OE Porsche 996 disc weighs approx. 8.5kg" But a 360mm x 30mm disc for $1000 which weighs in at a mere 5.6kg would indeed be a gamechanger.

twells99 said: I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now next gen CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used. So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed. What pads are you pairing them with twells?

twells99 said: I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now next gen CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used. So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed. Thanks for this, really interesting. I've just replaced the discs on my Mc570 with some new old stock, but would much rather have fitted later CCM discs. I had (used) ST's on a .2 GT3, sold them when I sold the car and the chap who put them on his GT3 is going strong with them years and many track days later. The CTE ones look an amazing price, notwithstanding I only looked at the $ cost not from a UK dealer.

Grantstown said: What pads are you pairing them with twells? I’m using Endless W007 pads and Endless RF650 fluid. Only done one track day so far but this combo was really impressive. The pads are a track pad so they need a bit of heat in them but the control and fade resistance is pretty amazing. CTE included a set of street pads with my purchase but I have t tried them out yet. They’re supposed to have a much higher coefficient of friction when cold. I plan to try them out in a few weeks.

robj4 said: Thanks for this, really interesting. I've just replaced the discs on my Mc570 with some new old stock, but would much rather have fitted later CCM discs. I had (used) ST's on a .2 GT3, sold them when I sold the car and the chap who put them on his GT3 is going strong with them years and many track days later. The CTE ones look an amazing price, notwithstanding I only looked at the $ cost not from a UK dealer. FWIW, I got a nice discount off the rrp plus they included street pads (which aren’t inexpensive!) so the price is pretty compelling.

What a great thread, thanks!

twells99 said: 993rsr said: These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors. Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time. Who did you source them from please? There are a few shops that sell CTE including Tegiwa and Promod Performance but I bought directly from CTE. I couldn t find a ton of info about them online as this is a relatively new product line for them so I contacted them directly. They re very responsive and answered a LOT of questions. They keep stock for the popular disc dimensions and then custom machine the bells (which only takes a few weeks). The cost was somewhat lower than ST as well. Thanks! Currently have my OEM PCCB on that have been refurbished by Re-Brake but would like a set of CCM to use and keep the PCCB for an OEM look if the car ever gets sold. I've got a set of hats so just need 4 x 380mm x 34mm rotors. Will drop them a line. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 14th July 18:29

993rsr said: Thanks! Currently have my OEM PCCB on that have been refurbished by Re-Brake but would like a set of CCM to use and keep the PCCB for an OEM look if the car ever gets sold. I've got a set of hats so just need 4 x 380mm x 34mm rotors. Will drop them a line. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 14th July 18:29 Heh, if you’ve cooked the PCCBs then CCM is most likely for you! Although I’d have no issues with light tracking on PCCBs, I personally wouldn’t track refinished PCCBs. I’m not saying you’d have a problem but there is more risk. It’s a long shot but I’ll be at Angelsey and Oulton Park next week with Goldtrack and if anyone wants to chat brakes or fancies a few laps, let me know.

Would be good if it was a viable alternative to ST beyond the OE ceramic rotor. ST make a great quality product but everything else associated with dealing with them as, at least ime, been dire. Which is a bloody shame tbh as after their very early issues, they have been the best product of that type by quite a long way for years and it's taken an age for the brembo or sgl rotors to even get close now.

twells99 said: I m using Endless W007 pads and Endless RF650 fluid. Only done one track day so far but this combo was really impressive. The pads are a track pad so they need a bit of heat in them but the control and fade resistance is pretty amazing. CTE included a set of street pads with my purchase but I have t tried them out yet. They re supposed to have a much higher coefficient of friction when cold. I plan to try them out in a few weeks. Wow, excellent that they sent them out with pads as well.

Grantstown said: Wow, excellent that they sent them out with pads as well. Yes, I look forward to trying them. CTE are still developing their track pad (hopefully will be ready soon) so for now they recommend the Endless W007 and Pagid RSC1 for track duty. These are the pads that they hope to eventually outperform. I had heard good things about the Endless pads and previously had good experience with their MX72+ which is a nice street friendly pad that also works well on track (with steel discs)… the only downside to the W007 is they’re a bit pricy!

I've been procrastinating for a while about doing something with the brakes on my 997GT2 its currently wearing some refurbished (SICOM, pre RE-Brake) discs which have been great but they've done quite a lot of heavy stopping from 200+ at the many vmax events I used to frequent and they're pretty old now..... Encouraged by twells99's excellent post and reference I have just ordered a set direct from the manufactuer VIA YCW who seem closely affiliated, PayPal payment gives a decent degree of confidence that if they don't turn up I won't lose my cash.

twells99 said: Grantstown said: Wow, excellent that they sent them out with pads as well. Yes, I look forward to trying them. CTE are still developing their track pad (hopefully will be ready soon) so for now they recommend the Endless W007 and Pagid RSC1 for track duty. These are the pads that they hope to eventually outperform. I had heard good things about the Endless pads and previously had good experience with their MX72+ which is a nice street friendly pad that also works well on track (with steel discs) the only downside to the W007 is they re a bit pricy! Just for info. I used Manthay pads when I had new discs (std. Porsche) on my old GT3, much preferred the feel to std. Thanks again for all the information re the discs

robj4 said: twells99 said: Grantstown said: Wow, excellent that they sent them out with pads as well. Yes, I look forward to trying them. CTE are still developing their track pad (hopefully will be ready soon) so for now they recommend the Endless W007 and Pagid RSC1 for track duty. These are the pads that they hope to eventually outperform. I had heard good things about the Endless pads and previously had good experience with their MX72+ which is a nice street friendly pad that also works well on track (with steel discs) the only downside to the W007 is they re a bit pricy! Just for info. I used Manthay pads when I had new discs (std. Porsche) on my old GT3, much preferred the feel to std. Thanks again for all the information re the discs Yes, upgraded pads crucial on any iteration of PCCB if you track it. I've used Endless for years, even on the earliest iteration of CCM on the 980, with a good pad they are very durable.

twells99 said: 993rsr said: These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors. Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time. Who did you source them from please? There are a few shops that sell CTE including Tegiwa and Promod Performance but I bought directly from CTE. I couldn t find a ton of info about them online as this is a relatively new product line for them so I contacted them directly. They re very responsive and answered a LOT of questions. They keep stock for the popular disc dimensions and then custom machine the bells (which only takes a few weeks). The cost was somewhat lower than ST as well. The marvel of PH. This is very interesting information and possibly one of the things that might encourage a Porsche solution ... ? I wonder if the GT3 PCCB option with callipers may also be an update to steel braked cars and GT4RS once production volumes are available ?? The pricing makes sense ...

Interesting video from Driver 61, not exactly relating to these specific discs but F1 Carbon Carbon

Carbon-carbon in race cars is rather different to the carbon ceramic used on road cars.....

Slippydiff said: Had been following these on Rennlist : https://rennlist.com/forums/performance-modificati... All seemed a bit hyped and the research/development process shorter than I'd expect. Sure, you can duplicate many miles of braking on a brake dyno, but even that takes time when establishing best methods for bedding in pads and experimenting with different pad compounds. And if they can find me a 360mm x 32mm steel OE Porsche disc that weighs 8.6kg, I'll buy a truckload of them !! Most would be closer to 11 or 12kg. From the Rennlist thread : "For an example of weight savings, our 360x32mm discs weigh only 5.6kg including bell. An OE Porsche 996 disc weighs approx. 8.5kg" But a 360mm x 30mm disc for $1000 which weighs in at a mere 5.6kg would indeed be a gamechanger. 300mm x 28 possibly available for a rsr?

Yellow491 said: 300mm x 28 possibly available for a rsr? 280mm, 290mm, 326mm and 330mm are available for the small sizes. 300mm not currently available, but can be made depending on demand.

M888YCW said: Yellow491 said: 300mm x 28 possibly available for a rsr? 280mm, 290mm, 326mm and 330mm are available for the small sizes. 300mm not currently available, but can be made depending on demand. Thanks,i could possibly make do with 290,will look into it.

isaldiri said: Carbon-carbon in race cars is rather different to the carbon ceramic used on road cars..... The CCM's actually start out as Carbon/Carbon discs, but then go through the siliconisation process to make them more durable/suitable for regular cars (i.e those that don't have the budget to change discs after every race) They are £100,000 discs because they are made/sold by Brembo (so £98,xxx markup). In actual fact though, they are cheaper to make than CCM's because they don't go through the extra Siliconisation process, so are actually around 2/3 the cost of a CCM. Edited by M888YCW on Tuesday 15th July 20:11

Are you planning on running a Porsche warranty? Years ago (almost 20…) a friend replaced his 997 GT3 PCCBs with Alcons. Swapped them back for warranty work and I think renewals. I guess it would depend on how understanding your OPC is, no idea how strict they are these days.

Tommie38 said: Are you planning on running a Porsche warranty? Years ago (almost 20…) a friend replaced his 997 GT3 PCCBs with Alcons. Swapped them back for warranty work and I think renewals. I guess it would depend on how understanding your OPC is, no idea how strict they are these days. I was going to post an update and only just saw your question about warranty, apologies! My OPC is pretty easy going. If I bring the car in for service the advisor tells the mechanics that I have my ‘track setup on’ and they don’t make a note of it. They did suggest that for warranty work it would be best to put back to stock if the work could be related to the brakes in any way. They also mentioned that the Porsche Owned OPCs are stricter on these things (my opc is independent). I don’t know if that’s true but it wouldn’t surprise me. I can swap everything back to stock in about an hour so it’s not a huge deal. The caliper studs make it a lot easier and I have quite a bit of practice swapping pads. That said, I’ve booked the car in to Suspension Secrets to have their Circuit handling pack installed so *thats* not going back to stock easily!

My local OPC said that so long as any warranty issue was not related to my brakes, the ST 's that I have fitted would not be a concern to them ... I do intend to maintain the extended warranty, hence in all other respects I have just maxed out the standard adjustment ...

Please can I ask those who know better for some advice? I have just bought an old man spec 991.2 GT3 and wish to put some STs on to replace the steels. If apathy and money allow me to one day get a 992.2 GT3, will the STs be transferrable? Thanks in advance.

andrewp88 said: Please can I ask those who know better for some advice? I have just bought an old man spec 991.2 GT3 and wish to put some STs on to replace the steels. If apathy and money allow me to one day get a 992.2 GT3, will the STs be transferrable? Thanks in advance. Calling TDT who will know for sure but afaik - The rears are the same I believe between the 992 and 991.2 but not the front. The front hat is different (shallower iirc) although the rotor is the same but ....you won't be able to buy just that 992 hat from ST.

If you look at the Hinz website they list different Surface Transforms part numbers for 992 GT3 /GT3 RS vs 991. Tyrone knows how to change the bells!

The 991 GT car ST kit is not a direct swap to 992 GT. The Front hat/bell certainly is different as isaldiri says. So you'd need to sell the 991 kit and get another kit for 992 or investigate getting some new hats made up to convert your existing carbon. You may also need additional small hardware to space out the rear depending upon what car the kit is being fitted to.

Talk to Mat at Suspension Secrets ?? I understand that they may be able to machine these parts ...

Thanks to all for the advice. A chain of events which I would not wish to repeat... I emailed ST asking the question, and if they offered a shareholder discount. They never replied. I had RPM inspect the GT3; they reported that the car, which had been purchased from an OPC, had been involved in an accident, so advised not to purchase. They confirmed that it is not a straight swap from 991 to 992. https://www.londonstockexchange.com/stock/SCE/surf... ST now unlikely to continue in current form.