PCCB Brakes - how much???!!!

My local dealer is trying to sell me a used '04 996 C4S that has PCCB brakes. I know these are a very, very expensive option (nearly £5.5K from some paperwork that I have seen) and when asked how much they cost to maintain, I wasn't given a direct answer. Just a response along the lines of, "... a bit more than standard brakes...". Upon researching this and other Porsche forums i've learnt that these are possibly a bad option to have - particularly with the original version of PCCB that this car will have. The car in question is already over my budget by around £9K. I cannot afford to make a big mistake! Could the car have been bought for track use and is there any way to verify this? Also, I have learnt that PCCB brakes are not covered under the Porsche original manufacturers warranty, the Porsche Approved warranty or the Porsche Extended Warranty. Each disc apparently costs upwards of £6K to replace if it is damaged, which it could be by a stone from what i've read! So, I have three questions: 1. Should I walk away from this car and find a 996 C4S without PCCB? 2. How much do the brake pads for PCCB brakes cost to replace as part of the normal wear and tear servicing? 3. How can I limit my risk (i.e. ensure that the ceramic discs are in perfect condition prior to purchasing the car)? What I wouldn't want to happen is buy the car and find that a disc is chipped within a few weeks. Taz

I would be very interested in PCCBs. The claimed benefits are improved, and consistent, braking, significantly reduced unsprung weight (which improves handling) and a life expectancy, in normal use, of c.250,000 miles. However, I would want Porsche to confirm, in writing, the pros and cons and any warranty exclusions before making a decision. In your situation, Tarik, I would try and find the best possible, lowest milege, nice spec C2/C4 closer to your original budget.

Firstly I would say that you should not venture too far above your budget, since it leaves you nothing in hand. On a pre-owned car, you have possibility the clutch will need replacing (this is not covered on any warranty) and would be around £1K I believe. You may also need tyres at some stage (£650) since the OPCs don't change them unless they have less than 4mm I think. Most other things should be covered though. The PCCB were expensive to start with, I think your figure is roughly right. I believe the cost to replace them has come down slightly. The initial cost of £24K mentioned in Evo 18 months ago is not true (this is what one of the Porsche people told me), I believe something like £12K may be nearer the mark, although I don't know and am ready to be corrected. When launched initially they claimed they had very long service lives. However, Porsche were caught out be some failures. Subsequently the downgraded the wording the brochures and modified their position, with caveats about extreme forms of driving (such as using them on a track) causing accelerated wear. How long they really last just pootling around with regular road use is not clear. I believe the pads and discs wear at a similar rate. I suppose from the hardness of them, it may be necessary to replace the pads and discs at the same time, hence the high costs. The OPC can tell you how worn the discs are. They can tell you the original thickness and the current thickness, plus the wear limit. There is no reason not to believe them, since it would be easy to measure and subsequently prove them wrong. You can break them when putting the wheel on, which is why there are some locating lugs you are supposed to screw in before putting the wheel back on. The only cause of failure you hear about it cracking, which is brought about by overheating mainly. In road use, I think it would be almost impossible to do this. Some GT3 members buy some steel discs and put the PCCBs in the cupboard. This is perhaps the lowest risk way to keep them in good condition (as long as you don't drop them!). Personally, brakes are consumables and replacing any consumable should not be a major worry on your mind. I think they are too expensive and it is not an option I would actively seek out. However Porsche would claim that since they last longer, overall the cost is not so different (however, I am not sure I believe that). Whilst pedal feel is improved and the unsprung mass reduced, I am not completely convinced that the handling improvement is worth the money. The steel discs stop you perfectly well.

If you like the car but aren't sure about the ceramics, then why not negotiate a set of steels & store the others? Personally I would not want a car with ceramics, until the issues are sorted!

FWIW, V-Zweeden ( www.v-zweeden.com ) do a complete PCCB set for the 997 for £4,800, and probably do one for the 996 too. See their ad in January's 911 & Porsche World p.57.

I suggest that if you want to sleep nights, avoid the ceramics and buy a car with steel rotors. You seem to be budget minded so stick to what you can afford and enjoy. There are plenty of 4S's coming to the market at the moment so shop around.

The dealer has told me that this particular C4S has passed the 111-point check in Reading (Porsche GB). He wants a decision from me by this Thursday! He wants to take a deposit from me and to commit to the car before I have seen it. Should I do this? Or is that a daft question?! The dealer seems reluctant to let me see the car unless I put a deposit down.

By Porsches own admission PCCB brakes don't provide better stopping power or heat capacity. The only benefit seems to be lighter unsprung weight with the brakes weighing in at half the weight of steel brakes. Having said that Porsche have also said that if they could get the manufacturing costs down enough they would fit PCCB as std so they are pretty committed to the technology. On this or the GT3 forum i'm sure i've read threads like:- - Someone managed to cook the front pads on a track day and got a bill of thousands to replace the pads. - The cost of a single corner disk and pad replacement is circa £5k when a disk was damaged when a tyre was replaced. So basically you are looking at maintenance costs of around ten times that of steel brakes, so unless you are a seriously hard core track-head they seem to be more trouble than they are worth - certainly very, very expensive to maintain. Obviously OPC salesmen need recalibrating if they are using phrases like 'A little more expensive' in relation to PCCB. Don't forget it is a £5k option and that roughly represents the price difference between the steel brake setup and PCCB so you are probably looking at upwards of £7k or £8k for all the component parts. They do look good though.

Hi- All the OPC cars will have passed the 111 point check, I would tell him where to go, and move to another OPC... Unless it is coming to the end of the month, and he will give you a discount on the car.....[ ] Seriously though, he cannot expect you to spend this sort of money without seeing the car - which OPC is it? Pete

I've got this fantastic suit of clothes you might be interested in...[ ]

He's prepared to let me have a test drive of another C4S but not the one in question as he has to buy that one from Reading and he won't buy it unless I commit. It's kind of chicken and egg at the moment as I don't want to fork out £54K for something I haven't seen!

So he's trying to sell you something he does not have...obviously an ex futures dealer [ ] What prevents you going to Reading to buy the car from them? I cannot believe that he thinks you would commit this sort of money without even seeing the goods, let alone driving it Which OPC is this? Pete

Chiswick.

Currently there are two web pages full of 996 C4S's for sale at OPC's in the UK (admittedly this covers Aberdeen to Exeter and 90% seem to be Silver / Grey) I would ask him what is so special about this one that you need to buy it unseen Pete

Chiswick tried a similar thing with me late in 2004. Before ordering my 987 I went there to look at a few used 996's. After a test drive of a C4 man coupe I decided that the car I wanted was a C2 man coupe with PSE (test car didn't have PSE), so I left this request with them. A few days later they called back and said I had "the perfect car" with the right spec, ready to go. Great I said, I'll be over during the weekend and I'll have a drive in it, and if I like it, I'm having it. Sorry they said, it was in their central pool of cars and they couldn't get it over without a deposit (which to be fair was completely refundable). The cars would only be released from the pool (shared with other members of that dealer group I'd imagine) if they had a customers name on it. That was pretty much the point at which I decided that a new 987 for used 996 money was what I wanted to do. The logic Chiswick used was essentially that all their used cars are prepared to the same high standards, and basically, when you've seen one 911 you've seen them all. I doubt Chiswick would have to "buy" the car off of Reading, rather that the they would be assigned the cost of financing it - so their exposure is NOTHING like writing a cheque out for fifty grand. EDITED TO SAY: On reflection, when they said that they deposit was refundable, it would only be if there was anything wrong with the car, or if it was not as it was described. Otherwise, it was to be bought sight unseen.

What the chap at Chiswick is saying would put me off. But he may be being entirely honest. It is true that PCGB (not Porsche Reading) do have cars that are ex-management, ex-finance, cancelled orders, etc, that are available in 'closed' auctions to OPCs. These are often high or unusually spec'd. To get them, the OPC has to agree to buy them, albeit at a preferential price. I know this because, a few years ago, before I bought my current 996, my I asked my OPC to see what was available 'nearly new' and they came back with a selection of cars that were at Reading that they might be able to acquire if I specifically wanted one, but would not buy otherwise.

I'M GOING TO WALK AWAY!!! I have been scared off as the following will reveal. The salesman is on holiday today and the finance manager called me to discuss finance. I asked him that I needed zero risk if I was going to put a £2K deposit down on a car i've never seen. Previously the salesman assured me that the car was at Reading and had passed the Porsche 111-point used car check already. The finance manager went away to discuss this with the Porsche Centre West London used car sales manager. He called to me to tell me that I could put a £2K deposit down which would be refundable if the car was 'not as described'. This would allow Porsche Centre West London to send off a couple of technicians to assess the car and see if they could bring it "up to the Porsche used car standards" as the car was currently at a third party (allegedly some sports car dealer, non-Porsche). If they couldn't bring the car up to Porsche Used Car standards they would not buy it off the third party and I would get my £2K back. Make of that what you will. I won't be parting with my £2K deposit!!! I really feel let down by Porsche as I feel that I was being conned by what is reputedly a reputable marque. That's the story so far and i'm waiting for a call back from the finance manager as he had to go away 'to do some homework'. There obviously has been some confusion on where the car actually is and what state if preparedness it is.

Just to be fair to Chiswick: I did get a call back from Chiswick saying the car is actually in Reading and owned by Porsche.

Are you allowed to go to Reading and sample the goods without parting with any money first [&o]

No! Because things are still not 100% clear about anything. I just think it's too much hassle for now.

I really would walk away. As stated elsewhere. There are over 50 'used approved' C4S's on Porsches website from £49K upwards. There are also 997 Carrera's from £58K and 997 Carrera S's from £61K which may also be worth considering. If you're already seriously looking at spending £54K, the extra initial outlay on a 997 will probably be repaid with lower servicing and better residuals on resale.