Is Porsche losing it? - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Firstly, I love Porsche. I've got a 2026 Cayenne GTS V8 coupe on order which should land in the next two months - cannot wait! I love the 992 and have T or GTS on the wishlist for a few years' time (if ICE is still a thing - which I think it will be). However, I want to get a second car for my missus and 'below' the 911 and Cayenne, there is nothing factory order that is even slightly interesting: - 718 Spyder RS - would love one but the price is at 911 levels, plus cannot order as Porsche making way for 718 EVs - 718 4.0 GTS (or any other variant) - cannot order as Porsche making way for EVs - Macan GTS - cannot order as Porsche making way for EVs, plus the design is starting to look dated... - Macan EV - I can just about get on board with a fast EV (Turbo or 4S) as a daily, but cannot get past the depreciation curve of the Taycan. Plus it's not exactly a looker. - Taycan - see Macan EV depreciation comment above The word was that Porsche has binned their full electrification by 2030 plan, but the entire lineup of semi-interesting cars (718, Macan) is now unavailable new due to pending EVs. Anecdotally few people want these (based on people I speak to and the number of Porsche EVs I see on the road). A hybrid 718 or Macan would be fun, but that doesn't seem to be on the agenda. So the 992 remains the beacon of light, the Cayenne GTS is keeping ICE alive in the rest of the range (but probably not for long given the recently announced Cayenne EV), and the every other model is dying under the EV sword. Picking up used is always an option, but how long until Porsche stops warranty coverage on ICE... Is this the beginning of the end for Porsche as we know it? I truly hope they backtrack on the this EV launch for 718 but seems unlikely. Gutting!

Agree, bought new fully loaded Macan GTS & Cayman 718 GT4 in 2023 and expect they will be my forever cars as we drive very little, travel a lot and they are excellent cars imo and not interested in EV’s / depreciation Think the last ICE models of both Macan & Caymans will hold good value whilst great fun to own and drive imo

Nobody wants EVs. This idiotic eco legislation needs to be binned sharpish.

Count897 said: Nobody wants EVs. This idiotic eco legislation needs to be binned sharpish. What rubbish, I want one, perfect for local miles, not for EVERYONE but right for lots esp if have home charging.

Taycan is a fantastic car. I’m sure so is the Macon EV. Home or work charging. Costs pennies. Fast, comfortable and practical. Just need a second car if you regularly need to drive a long distance. Most Porsche owners do not concern themselves with forums.

They are not losing it. They have to make sure they build legally compliant cars and have been responding to the legislation. If there is resistance to the legislation and therefore the cars are not selling you cant blame the player you have to blame the game. Long model cycles mean that none of the manufacturers were going to wait right until the cusp of a ban to move as they need time to ease into the new world so one model cycle prior to being forced was always going to be electric. Takes a long time to get a car to market and in that time there has been an opinion change and wavering from government. s t time to be a car manufacturer and I'm sure they wouldn't want to be in this mess. Hopefully they have engineered the new Cayman and Macan that if they need to they can revert to ICE. Will be interesting to see what the electric Cayman Boxster is like

Maybe head over to BMW, Merc, or JLR? Plenty of hybrids etc in all shapes and sizes.

Maybe they need to splinter the company to avoid the regulation. I agree that EVs have terrible depreciation. That’s why the way forward is to to let someone else take the hit, then buy. I’m one of those who took the hit having bought one over 4 years ago. It’s a great drive, but it’s in the repair shop all the time for non-EV related repairs (air suspension, chassis tech, child locks, etc). There’s too much tech on these cars. Our current enterprise runabout is a Lexus hybrid. The thing uses so little fuel that I’ve learned how preferable they are to full EV if you need to rely on a car as a daily. On the other hand there are now 2 different drivetrains to fail, which is a scary thought. My 2017 911 has been reliable for 8 years, until this year where it’s needed a water pump. Not a bad record really. It doesn’t have PADM, PDCC, PTV, 4wd, PDK, adaptive cruise, Chrono, sun roof, so far less to go wrong.

Ernesto said: Taycan is a fantastic car. I’m sure so is the Macon EV. Home or work charging. Costs pennies. Fast, comfortable and practical. Just need a second car if you regularly need to drive a long distance. Most Porsche owners do not concern themselves with forums. Your garage is incredible Ernesto, what a fleet of P cars!

Grantstown said: Ernesto said: Taycan is a fantastic car. I’m sure so is the Macon EV. Home or work charging. Costs pennies. Fast, comfortable and practical. Just need a second car if you regularly need to drive a long distance. Most Porsche owners do not concern themselves with forums. Your garage is incredible Ernesto, what a fleet of P cars! I see you bought the Black Snake - did you buy it when it was for sale the last time? I want to say that was shortly pre-Covid, but could have the time wrong. Bet that is a fun car.

I might say that Porsche have lost it from a business point of view, but in terms of the current range they are making cars 'required of them' by the legislators. From a personal point of view, 'peak Porsche' was a few years back. I've had a 993, a 997, two 981s, didn't want a 982/718 because I bought a 991.2... and there's nothing that interests me in the current line-up - or future line-up if it includes a 718 EV. 992.1 Turbo/S, hmm maybe... but would that really be a whole lot better than my 991.2 Carrera T? Faster maybe, but for driving pleasure?

Lost it when they released the 928 924 996 Cayenne Taycan …..

Maybe true Hybrid is the answer ?? I believe that Porsche have the capacity to create something spectacular but they have certainly had a hard time ... some of it self inflicted but nobody would wish to see them fail ... The awaited solid state batteries may transform the weight / battery capacity / power horizon ??

22s said: The word was that Porsche has binned their full electrification by 2030 plan, but the entire lineup of semi-interesting cars (718, Macan) is now unavailable new due to pending EVs. They haven't binned it. And it was 80% EV by 2030 anyway, not full EV as many claim. However, as they have commented, EV takeup hasn't been as high as forecast, so they've pushed back their targets. It unfortunately means any cars they've developed (or are in development) with full BEV in mind will need re-engineering to accomodate a combustion engine. Unless they just reitntroduce the 'old' cars; which seems unlikely.

Count897 said: Nobody wants EVs. This idiotic eco legislation needs to be binned sharpish. Agreed unless they can buy one through the company and save huge amounts on TAX (Public money)

SV_WDC said: 22s said: The word was that Porsche has binned their full electrification by 2030 plan, but the entire lineup of semi-interesting cars (718, Macan) is now unavailable new due to pending EVs. They haven't binned it. And it was 80% EV by 2030 anyway, not full EV as many claim. However, as they have commented, EV takeup hasn't been as high as forecast, so they've pushed back their targets. It unfortunately means any cars they've developed (or are in development) with full BEV in mind will need re-engineering to accomodate a combustion engine. Unless they just reitntroduce the 'old' cars; which seems unlikely. The 80% electrification can be read different ways: One is where the model lines representing 80% of volume are fully electrified. The 911s were always positioned as being petrol for as long as possible.

MDL111 said: Grantstown said: Ernesto said: Taycan is a fantastic car. I’m sure so is the Macon EV. Home or work charging. Costs pennies. Fast, comfortable and practical. Just need a second car if you regularly need to drive a long distance. Most Porsche owners do not concern themselves with forums. Your garage is incredible Ernesto, what a fleet of P cars! I see you bought the Black Snake - did you buy it when it was for sale the last time? I want to say that was shortly pre-Covid, but could have the time wrong. Bet that is a fun car. I bought the black snake many years ago when cars were relatively affordable….did some track days and hill climbs. Ultimately sold it. Probably another car I should have kept..

Ernesto said: I bought the black snake many years ago when cars were relatively affordable….did some track days and hill climbs. Ultimately sold it. Probably another car I should have kept.. Ah I see - I just remember looking at it when I last saw it for sale - was quite a few years ago though. Can’t keep every car unfortunately …

craigjm said: Will be interesting to see what the electric Cayman Boxster is like ^^ This. MG Cyberster has made an interesting start and I'll be fascinated to see what Porsche can come up with. Hopefully something no bigger than 981/718.

ChrisW. said: Maybe true Hybrid is the answer ?? Corvette went that way with their so called E-ray car. ICE at the back and electric at the front. Now available RHD in UK with 650 bhp for £150k and I imagine it's "quite quick". Whether you actually want one is a different question.

It's probably more Porsche having the rug pulled with the whole EV thing. More needs to be done to stop the Chinese talking the whole car industry. Separately the cars are too expensive and porsche for some reason won't do cheap finance which is baffling. Our potential Macan EV or Cayenne purchase was stolen by the pesky Koreans with the superb Ionic 5N which makes the porsche SUV feel ancient and the drive is much better in every way too. Porsche are all about evolving but we're in a time when some real revolution is needed to keep up with the competition. They are probably heading towards needing another Cayenne moment.

fridaypassion said: It's probably more Porsche having the rug pulled with the whole EV thing. More needs to be done to stop the Chinese talking the whole car industry. Separately the cars are too expensive and porsche for some reason won't do cheap finance which is baffling. Our potential Macan EV or Cayenne purchase was stolen by the pesky Koreans with the superb Ionic 5N which makes the porsche SUV feel ancient and the drive is much better in every way too. Porsche are all about evolving but we're in a time when some real revolution is needed to keep up with the competition. They are probably heading towards needing another Cayenne moment. I think they're more likely heading for a painful period (what Cayenne-esque addiiton to the lineup would really make them exciting again?). Potentially another SUV with less divisive looks? Or a Cayman/Boxster-priced tourer? I really do think hybridising the existing line-up without all the w ky "electric" branding could be a better answer. I.e. this is a great car that happens to be hybrid, not making hybrid its whole personality. Hybrid is a good option as it's quiet and efficient when pootling arond town, and powerful and rapid without the range concerns of an EV when needed. I always remember the video of the 918 (think it was on Top Gear) silently zipping off the line in electric and the ICE then erupting into life when it hit the mph threshold. Looked like magic. The new Chinese cars are insanely good, and some are also incredibly cheap. We bought a Jetour T2 (aka Defender rip-off) as a cheap run-about. It's good looking, got every gadget you want, decent interior, and brilliant value for money - I think we paid less than 25k. In its current guise it's never going to compete with Porsche, but one day they may bring out a model that does...

22s said: The new Chinese cars are insanely good, and some are also incredibly cheap. Bingo. Especially in UK which has thrown the sad remnants of its motor industry to the wind in the face of US tariffs. Game over. And it's not going to be easy for the huge VAG group either.

Agreed there is trouble- - massive decline in Chinese market sales - upcoming tariffs on the US leaves Porsche very exposed as they have no US manufacturing. -bad misjudgement on EVs -significant rise in prices has priced many prospective buyer out of the market . While they are pivoting now it it going to be a tough time with a big impact on profitability .

Google says you can't buy a jetour t2 in the uk so I assume you did an import. Shame. Seems a lot of car for the money I can't say I am surprised the Chinese are winning. The defacfo price of a decent car now seems to be £100 k which is insane My turbo s cab new would be over £200k. I paid £117k for it with 32k miles so even the hallowed 911 cost close to £100 in depreciation for the first owner

Jeremy-75qq8 said: Google says you can't buy a jetour t2 in the uk so I assume you did an import. Shame. Seems a lot of car for the money I can't say I am surprised the Chinese are winning. The defacfo price of a decent car now seems to be £100 k which is insane My turbo s cab new would be over £200k. I paid £117k for it with 32k miles so even the hallowed 911 cost close to £100 in depreciation for the first owner Jetour we have overseas; we imported it from China. I think in China they are something crazy like $24k / £17k. Yes, when you have a KIA EV starting at £65k and a Macan EV Turbo over £100k and a Cayenne GTS at £120k and TurboS Cab like yours over £200k it does start to feel like monopoly money!

22s said: Jeremy-75qq8 said: Google says you can't buy a jetour t2 in the uk so I assume you did an import. Shame. Seems a lot of car for the money I can't say I am surprised the Chinese are winning. The defacfo price of a decent car now seems to be £100 k which is insane My turbo s cab new would be over £200k. I paid £117k for it with 32k miles so even the hallowed 911 cost close to £100 in depreciation for the first owner Jetour we have overseas; we imported it from China. I think in China they are something crazy like $24k / £17k. Yes, when you have a KIA EV starting at £65k and a Macan EV Turbo over £100k and a Cayenne GTS at £120k and TurboS Cab like yours over £200k it does start to feel like monopoly money! The Kia EV3 (car of the year 2024/5 ?) starts at half the figure you mention ... £33k on the road with finance at 3.9% APR ... by comparison the Chinese had the luxury of stealing their seed technology including design language ... and as such many are blatantly counterfeit goods. As for after sales service, maintenance and repair ... many of these brands are also environmental disasters and nothing to be proud of (IMHO). That from this platform some Chinese brands are coming good (on the shoulders of stolen tech) does now give them some credibility and I can quite understand why many would wish to mitigate this illegitimate advantage in the market. Who now would want to be a domestic motor manufacturer without some structural support in local market places, given the materials and financial subsidies that are provided by China for Chinese manufacturing industries ... ??

ChrisW. said: The Kia EV3 (car of the year 2024/5 ?) starts at half the figure you mention ... £33k on the road with finance at 3.9% APR ... by comparison the Chinese had the luxury of stealing their seed technology including design language ... and as such many are blatantly counterfeit goods. As for after sales service, maintenance and repair ... many of these brands are also environmental disasters and nothing to be proud of (IMHO). That from this platform some Chinese brands are coming good (on the shoulders of stolen tech) does now give them some credibility and I can quite understand why many would wish to mitigate this illegitimate advantage in the market. Who now would want to be a domestic motor manufacturer without some structural support in local market places, given the materials and financial subsidies that are provided by China for Chinese manufacturing industries ... ?? I really do hear you regarding the local environmental impact. This was one reason why we didn’t opt for the green ‘virtue stripe’ on the number plate. Also we’d like to try and achieve a really high mileage on our Taycan to justify all of that lithium mining. Unfortunately the near constant time it’s been off the road for issues this year has made it hard to add said mileage. We’re currently at 42K after 4 years. Hopefully we won’t become a country that consumes massive volumes of Chinese cars every 2-3 years, but it does look like that’s the way it’s going.

ChrisW. said: The Kia EV3 (car of the year 2024/5 ?) starts at half the figure you mention ... £33k on the road with finance at 3.9% APR ... by comparison the Chinese had the luxury of stealing their seed technology including design language ... and as such many are blatantly counterfeit goods. The Chinese government chose an EV strategy more than 20 years ago when the West was still pandering to vested oil and auto industry interests and focused on getting supply chains established for a domestic market. They've been registering more EV patents than anyone else for years. The idea that they are cheating is just Trumpian spin from sore losers. We have been done over, and have nobody but ourselves to blame.

otolith said: The Chinese government chose an EV strategy more than 20 years ago when the West was still pandering to vested oil and auto industry interests and focused on getting supply chains established for a domestic market. They've been registering more EV patents than anyone else for years. The idea that they are cheating is just Trumpian spin from sore losers. We have been done over, and have nobody but ourselves to blame. This. China Auto went from mopeds directly to EV - missed out the ICE tech stage.

Well they weren't registering so much before 2012 when the BMW i3 was well and truly in procurement ... Yes they have played a very shrewd supply chain game ... particularly since they refine 90% of the World's strategic materials for batteries !!! But you haven't answered the sales support question or likely product longevity question. Will many repair electric cars by replacement ? And they have stolen a lot of design tech ... Herewith the latest from Porsche ... Cellforce was their own battery manufacturing facility that is being re-focussed .... "Instead, Cellforce’s reduced footprint will be tasked with the research and development of future high-performance batteries, and feed the results back into PowerCo - the VW Group’s much larger battery venture - as part of the wider investment in EVs and the supply chain that creates them. In the short term, Porsche promised that it would still bring ‘trend-setting technologies in electromobility’ into series production - but also reiterated that combustion engines (alongside hybrid and EV solutions) would remain part of its powertrain mix ‘until well into the 2030s’. New derivatives of the 911 using the same V4Smart booster cells as the GTS are apparently being primed for imminent launch."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/26/po... Nobody wants EVs..

Count897 said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/26/po... Nobody wants EVs.. You’re projecting again.

SV_WDC said: However, as they have commented, EV takeup hasn't been as high as forecast, so they've pushed back their targets. It unfortunately means any cars they've developed (or are in development) with full BEV in mind will need re-engineering to accomodate a combustion engine. I think the only upcoming model where that might be viable is the 718 EV. From the spy shots it looks like it's on the 992 platform and it definitely doesn't have a skateboard battery. The battery is a large block where the engine is in current Caysters. Would still require quite a bit of work, but may be just about viable. Problem is, the Cayster is hardly a money spinner, so doubtful it would be worth the investment. New Macan EV is skateboard battery and I doubt engineered with combustion in mind at all. The good news in all this is that they've certainly pulled back on their electrification plans for the 911. A few years back they were talking about how the first 911 Hybrid would be the most powerful 911 model yet etc. In the end, we got the very mild hybrid GTS. Will be interesting to see how they go about the next 911, actually surprised we haven't seen some mules doing laps at the Ring. Going by normal model life cycles, it would be pretty far into the next 911 development, what with the .2 model over a year old at this point. Looks challenging re combustion models outside of the 911 other than keeping the current cars going. But if I had to guess, of all the model lines the Cayenne is probably the one that's worth totally rethinking and doing a new ground-up combustion model to add to whatever EV they were planning next. It's the big money spinner, after all.

alltalk said: Count897 said: Nobody wants EVs. This idiotic eco legislation needs to be binned sharpish. What rubbish, I want one, perfect for local miles, not for EVERYONE but right for lots esp if have home charging. You'd have to be mad to buy privately though given catastrophic depreciation. May as well set fire to £50k in your back garden. TX.

It will be interesting to see how many Macans are leased. Wait three years - much like the Taycan....

At least they’re still making 911s. It’d actually be tragic if that stopped. Cayennes and Macans… does anyone really care that deeply about that stuff?

The challenge for Porsche is their positioning within the VAG group. Their products are similar to Audi but cost significantly more. They’re focused on the performance side of things but EVs have levelled the playing field at a significantly cheaper price point. Porsche products are lost and need to pivot, quickly, to find a niche to remain relevant. Cayman/Boxster EV!? What market segment wants a car like this and would be happy paying circa £100k for it? I can see it being a flop, but at least they’re trying to keep the segment going when the likes of Alpine, Audi TT, BMW Z4, Mercedes SLK, Lotus, etc, have left the building. Interesting times ahead, but I think Porsche and a lot of other car manufacturers are behind the curve. If one can’t beat the Chinese, you have to replicate their model or impose tariffs to maintain market share at home.

autocar have a "10 new Porsches" section today outlining the product plans .....front drive small suv anyone?

Well, BYD seems to be out to crush the market at every level including at the top:... .https://www.jalopnik.com/1951184/byd-2959-hp-yangwang-u9-hits-293-mph/ Of course there will be arguments about the validity of the recored but this are early attempts...so more to come no doubt.

cseven said: Autocar have a "10 new Porsches" section today outlining the product plans Good grief, has Dany Bahar joined the company? "In October 2010, Autocar reported on Lotus's ambitious five-year plan to launch "five new models in five years" under CEO Dany Bahar. Lotus has since shifted its focus to a new era of Chinese-built electric vehicles, with several new EV models already launched or planned for the coming years."

The best Porsches have already been made.

its going to be very difficult for the old guard to keep up with the chinese, in terms of quality, performance and most importantly price! even the men at maranello have a xiaomi su7 ultra, which they are reverse engineering. Edited by Sidsw on Wednesday 27th August 15:38

I bet they couldn’t copy that for twice the price! lol..

Sidsw said: its going to be very difficult for the old guard to keep up with the chinese, in terms of quality, performance and most importantly price! I know this is repeated like it’s a given 50 times a day on PH, but a small problem with this hypothesis is that they are not much of a threat in western markets and certainly not at the premium end. Do you want a Chinese EV? It’s clearly not that difficult to make a very ordinary EV and it’s also seemingly not difficult to build a one-off Nurburgring special. But it’s not clear to me how this translates to a real threat to brands that invest in things the Chinese don’t care about like handling, looks, etc. Ok yes if you want handling and looks, an EV would be the last place to start but if circumstances dictate that it has to be an EV then there is some value in European EVs. You’d think they would do well at the cheap end to start off with but everyone is talking about the Renault 5 now. Which is incidentally good looking. So much for the Chinese dominating. Maybe things will change but the Chinese would need to up their game quite substantially. Which is not easy when their home market values the latest infotainment and bing bongs and definitely don’t value the long development cycles required to truly hone a vehicle to a very high standard. It’s all about churning about some new thing every few months.

Macan NA future but some time to survive on EV alone…

DMZ said: I know this is repeated like it’s a given 50 times a day on PH, but a small problem with this hypothesis is that they are not much of a threat in western markets and certainly not at the premium end. Do you want a Chinese EV? Depends, does it have an American or European badge on it? I think our experience of car and motorcycle manufacturers from Japan and Korea suggests that complacently relying upon the prejudices of the public is a risky defence.

Anyone remember BSA, Norton etc?

otolith said: Depends, does it have an American or European badge on it? I think our experience of car and motorcycle manufacturers from Japan and Korea suggests that complacently relying upon the prejudices of the public is a risky defence. Did anyone mention complacency? If anyone did, not sure it’s a word that I would use to describe Porsche. I’m fairly sure Porsche have done quite ok in face of Japanese and Korean competition for several decades so if that’s the track record we should be worried about, not sure I see it. I’m not sure what Porsche worries about exactly but I suspect it’s more like BMW. Particularly on the volume sellers.

I don’t think the Western brands in general can rely on “who wants a Chinese car” - VW/Porsche included. They may find that it’s more people than they expected.

otolith said: I don’t think the Western brands in general can rely on “who wants a Chinese car” - VW/Porsche included. They may find that it’s more people than they expected. Q1: How long will my electric car last? A1: Don't know, so buy a cheap one. Q2: How long can I trust the government to keep taxes low on electric cars? A2: Don't know, so buy a cheap one. Q3: Will the high purchase cost of electric cars reduce in future? A3: Don't know, so buy a cheap one. Q4: Are expensive electric cars any better then cheap ones? A4: Don't know, so buy a cheap one. Q5: Will my electric car suffer heavy depreciation? A5: Don't know, so buy a cheap one. I think I'll buy a cheap one.

Japan started off selling cheap little cars…

gtsralph said: Macan NA future but some time to survive on EV alone… and will basically be a Q5 in drag with identical front biased 4wd as they don't have the time or funds for a rear biased Porsche setup....Porsche will be badge engineering for the 1st time.

cseven said: and will basically be a Q5 in drag with identical front biased 4wd as they don't have the time or funds for a rear biased Porsche setup....Porsche will be badge engineering for the 1st time. Yep, this feels like a slightly panicky shift in corporate policy.

Sidsw said: its going to be very difficult for the old guard to keep up with the chinese, in terms of quality, performance and most importantly price! Chinese cars are all flash, no backbone. They come loaded with giant touchscreens and a million gimmicks, but scratch beneath the surface and it’s cheap plastics, sloppy fit-and-finish, and tech that feels like it was rushed out of beta. Reliability? Forget it — they haven’t proven they can last more than a few years without rattles, glitches, or bigger failures. Safety? Some of these things fold up in a crash like a soda can. Copycat designs — half of them look like knockoff BMWs or Land Rovers you’d find in a discount mall. Outside of China, good luck with parts or resale value. You’re basically gambling on a shiny toy with no long-term support. At the end of the day, they’re built to look good in a showroom, not to still be running strong in 10 years. Why Chinese cars struggle and will always struggle and NEVER succeed Forced labor: EV batteries and steel tied to Xinjiang camps. No workers’ rights: No unions, no safety, cut corners = dangerous cars. Party quotas over quality: Factories chase numbers, not trust. Copycat culture: Knockoffs instead of innovation. China can flood the market with cars. But with slavery in the supply chain and politics over people, the world sees them as cheap, unsafe, and unethical. Edited by Jones the cat on Wednesday 27th August 21:29

As automakers expand their EV lineups and incorporate over-the-air (OTA) software updates, many are exploring subscription-based services. Eventually Porsche will charge a monthly subscription service to get extra BHP/Performance from the car. The parent group VW are already doing it https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/volkswagen-ju...

DMZ said: I know this is repeated like it’s a given 50 times a day on PH, but a small problem with this hypothesis is that they are not much of a threat in western markets and certainly not at the premium end. Do you want a Chinese EV? It’s clearly not that difficult to make a very ordinary EV and it’s also seemingly not difficult to build a one-off Nurburgring special. But it’s not clear to me how this translates to a real threat to brands that invest in things the Chinese don’t care about like handling, looks, etc. Ok yes if you want handling and looks, an EV would be the last place to start but if circumstances dictate that it has to be an EV then there is some value in European EVs. You’d think they would do well at the cheap end to start off with but everyone is talking about the Renault 5 now. Which is incidentally good looking. So much for the Chinese dominating. Maybe things will change but the Chinese would need to up their game quite substantially. Which is not easy when their home market values the latest infotainment and bing bongs and definitely don’t value the long development cycles required to truly hone a vehicle to a very high standard. It’s all about churning about some new thing every few months. Their development cycle is about a third of Western manufacturers. They use a global model that operates in am relevant time zones with the work shifting seamlessly from location to location 7/24. They have plenty of Western resources and will get there even faster than Korea did. Many new entrants were subjects of derision when they started such as Japan and Korea but later took a huge amount of market share. The connectedness of the current Chinese cars may well appeal to younger buyers who are more native to a digital world. I have no doubt that China understand the Western marketplace and will be able to produce products that meet Western needs at high quality.

Is 7/24 a recognised thing? It looks rather odd. Am I terribly out of date? Don’t answer that.

RDMcG said: Their development cycle is about a third of Western manufacturers. They use a global model that operates in am relevant time zones with the work shifting seamlessly from location to location 7/24. They have plenty of Western resources and will get there even faster than Korea did. Many new entrants were subjects of derision when they started such as Japan and Korea but later took a huge amount of market share. The connectedness of the current Chinese cars may well appeal to younger buyers who are more native to a digital world. I have no doubt that China understand the Western marketplace and will be able to produce products that meet Western needs at high quality. Re the derision, it appears that we have the opposite problem based on this thread (and the other 50 posts a day). Mostly misguided believes around cars that are not selling in any serious volumes or are any good. If there were actually a slew of compelling EVs from China that in any shape or form compete with Porsche then maybe there is something to talk about. I guess the closest would be Lotus and well maybe the less said about that the better. They have plenty of westerners too so perhaps not so easy after all. Not that they are bothering Porsche much but I notice that BYD sales are down 30+% this year where I’m at. As an example from the real world. It must be a bit disappointing after having worked day and night. Then we have the little problem of being locked out of the US market, which I’m sure is at least half of the western market gone.

Jones the cat said: Chinese cars are all flash, no backbone. They come loaded with giant touchscreens and a million gimmicks, but scratch beneath the surface and it’s cheap plastics, sloppy fit-and-finish, and tech that feels like it was rushed out of beta. Reliability? Forget it — they haven’t proven they can last more than a few years without rattles, glitches, or bigger failures. Safety? Some of these things fold up in a crash like a soda can. Copycat designs — half of them look like knockoff BMWs or Land Rovers you’d find in a discount mall. Outside of China, good luck with parts or resale value. You’re basically gambling on a shiny toy with no long-term support. At the end of the day, they’re built to look good in a showroom, not to still be running strong in 10 years. Why Chinese cars struggle and will always struggle and NEVER succeed Forced labor: EV batteries and steel tied to Xinjiang camps. No workers’ rights: No unions, no safety, cut corners = dangerous cars. Party quotas over quality: Factories chase numbers, not trust. Copycat culture: Knockoffs instead of innovation. China can flood the market with cars. But with slavery in the supply chain and politics over people, the world sees them as cheap, unsafe, and unethical.ÿ Edited by Jones the cat on Wednesday 27th August 21:29 I bet you can't wait until you can post in NP&E

DMZ said: RDMcG said: Their development cycle is about a third of Western manufacturers. They use a global model that operates in am relevant time zones with the work shifting seamlessly from location to location 7/24. They have plenty of Western resources and will get there even faster than Korea did. Many new entrants were subjects of derision when they started such as Japan and Korea but later took a huge amount of market share. The connectedness of the current Chinese cars may well appeal to younger buyers who are more native to a digital world. I have no doubt that China understand the Western marketplace and will be able to produce products that meet Western needs at high quality. Re the derision, it appears that we have the opposite problem based on this thread (and the other 50 posts a day). Mostly misguided believes around cars that are not selling in any serious volumes or are any good. If there were actually a slew of compelling EVs from China that in any shape or form compete with Porsche then maybe there is something to talk about. I guess the closest would be Lotus and well maybe the less said about that the better. They have plenty of westerners too so perhaps not so easy after all. Not that they are bothering Porsche much but I notice that BYD sales are down 30+% this year where I’m at. As an example from the real world. It must be a bit disappointing after having worked day and night. Then we have the little problem of being locked out of the US market, which I’m sure is at least half of the western market gone. It's worse than that ... we are penalised into the US market and the US penalise the Chinese more to focus their efforts on Europe ... where the UK would appear to be a soft target ?? It is accepted that the Chinese are now producing technological advances at scale in their own right, the question still remains .... how will they support short product cycles to deliver long term reliability, value and acceptable environmental impact ?? Maybe our motoring pricing policy is the wrong way round ... maybe we should add a big tax at the outset and credit it back as an environmental rebate for each year that the car is on the road being used ? The new Chinese car manufacturers are now so numerous, how many of them will outlast a lettuce ??

cseven said: and will basically be a Q5 in drag with identical front biased 4wd as they don't have the time or funds for a rear biased Porsche setup....Porsche will be badge engineering for the 1st time. Existing ICE Macan is already on the same platform as the Q5 and closely related to it. So, that's nothing new. Cayenne has been closely related to the Toureg since forever. Etc.

3436cm3 said: Existing ICE Macan is already on the same platform as the Q5 and closely related to it. So, that's nothing new. Yes, and Macan is generally recognised as the best driving SUV.

Panamax said: Yes, and Macan is generally recognised as the best driving SUV. The point the article was making is that up until now Porsche take said q5 platform and spend 5 years and lots of money making it go and handle like a Porsche…they are not doing that this time….simply changing the badge and interior I expect.

cseven said: The point the article was making is that up until now Porsche take said q5 platform and spend 5 years and lots of money making it go and handle like a Porsche…they are not doing that this time….simply changing the badge and interior I expect. Given how much component sharing there already has been on the platform, most of the engines, transmissions, suspension arms etc - here's a link ( https://www.034motorsport.com/density-line-control... ) to a control arm refresh kit that's the same for Audi A4/S4/RS4, A5/S5/RS5, Q5/SQ5, C7/C7.5 A6/S6/RS6, A7/S7/RS7, and 95B Porsche Macan - I'm not sure what Porsche was doing for "five years" to make the Macan drive differently, but it wasn't heavy engineering stuff, it doesn't even have its own suspension arms. Would have taken far more engineering work to do the Macan body and interior than the relatively minor work on the other stuff. There's no real reason to think the new model will be terribly different.

gtsralph said: Macan NA future but some time to survive on EV alone… From a product roadmap point of view, I find this deeply depressing. 18 months after releasing the EV version, they are backtracking and telling customers to wait 3 years to buy an updated version of what they used to make, having tried to insist they would only build the new thing. I presume these product decisions pre-date Blume as Porsche CEO, but unless he leads a restructuring of the company and manages expectations with absolute urgency, shareholders will surely call for an end to his reign within months.

JustinC79 said: gtsralph said: Macan NA future but some time to survive on EV alone… From a product roadmap point of view, I find this deeply depressing. 18 months after releasing the EV version, they are backtracking and telling customers to wait 3 years to buy an updated version of what they used to make, having tried to insist they would only build the new thing. I presume these product decisions pre-date Blume as Porsche CEO, but unless he leads a restructuring of the company and manages expectations with absolute urgency, shareholders will surely call for an end to his reign within months. New CEO search already happening https://www.autonews.com/volkswagen/ane-porsche-bl...

3436cm3 said: Given how much component sharing there already has been on the platform, most of the engines, transmissions, suspension arms etc - here's a link ( https://www.034motorsport.com/density-line-control... ) to a control arm refresh kit that's the same for Audi A4/S4/RS4, A5/S5/RS5, Q5/SQ5, C7/C7.5 A6/S6/RS6, A7/S7/RS7, and 95B Porsche Macan - I'm not sure what Porsche was doing for "five years" to make the Macan drive differently, but it wasn't heavy engineering stuff, it doesn't even have its own suspension arms. Would have taken far more engineering work to do the Macan body and interior than the relatively minor work on the other stuff. There's no real reason to think the new model will be terribly different. This is good news. Rational and pragmatic from Porsche. My Macan S Diesel (wife's daily and my hack at the weekend) is one of the best cars I've had. I wouldn't know what to replace it with, other than a up-to 2019 Macan GTS. I had the EV version as courtesy car a few months back and I did not like it at all. The appliance-like plastic interior, the width, the feeling of heft and it was no better in any way than a Kia. In fact, the Ioniq 5 is a far superior car. If they keep most of the engineering ethos used to build the first Macan, this one will be good too.

The rise of China, India, Brazil and others should be laid squarely at the feet of the Capitalist west and their drive for more, more profit, larger corporate bonuses and a chasm in the earnings of the executives compared to their staff. The exectives outsourced work to other countries with cheap labour purely to increase profits and depress the wages of the common man. This is the end result. China and India have welcomed the West, stolen their IP and replicated the goods at a franction of the cost. Tesla are in China, they have their own production facility there. If the west is scared of Chinese mobile systems, what do they think they're doing with the cars that are made there? Stealing IP, replicating it and selling to the largest market in the world, China. Porsche Macan in 2028!? too late. By then EV's will be able to cover similar distances to ICE at a fraction of the cost. Consumers will be used to cheap cars that do everything - spending £100k plus for a Macan because it has an engine that pipes vroom vroom noises into the cabin will be an exercise in folly. The Japanese killed the UK car industry back in the day - the Chinese will do the same to the Germans. It's called the cycle of life.

I was told that a Chinese branded iPhone could be had for £75 ... Apple have been trying a second manufacturing arm in India ... still small, but the same will follow. Foxconn manufacture for them in China ... and the tech leaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

maz8062 said: The rise of China, India, Brazil and others should be laid squarely at the feet of the Capitalist west and their drive for more, more profit, larger corporate bonuses and a chasm in the earnings of the executives compared to their staff. The exectives outsourced work to other countries with cheap labour purely to increase profits and depress the wages of the common man. Are you Arthur Scargill? For the last 50 years UK has been much too expensive a country to manufacture anything. You might want to have a coal fire, drive a Morris Marina and eat pie & chips but most people don't. The motor industry packed up and left a long time ago, so we're just left with a few fragments still limping along, completely dependent on exports - if they can find them.

ChrisW. said: I was told that a Chinese branded iPhone could be had for £75 ... Apple have been trying a second manufacturing arm in India ... still small, but the same will follow. Foxconn manufacture for them in China ... and the tech leaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn Whoever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about if they meant a phone that is actually comparable to an Apple device. iPhones use cutting edge silicon made by TSMC. There is literally no other company current that can manufacture chips to the same standard. In an iPhone Pro, than alone costs Apple about $45, not including the cost to design and engineer the chip, which is a lot. Apple also uses relatively expensive components throughout, such as screens and batteries. The screen will cost at least as much as the chip, probably more. Just those two bits will take you well beyond $75, no matter where you manufacture nor what brand you stick on it. That's before you consider the engineering and design costs that go into Apple silicon, which is currently the best on the market, the cost that goes into iOS (not going to claim that's the best but it's a cost all the same that Android units do not have). Bottom line, a phone made to the same quality and performance throughout as an iPhone could not be made for $75 anywhere. You can make a cheap s t copy with a generic SoC, a crap screen and running basic Android for $75. But the cost to Apple of an iPhone Pro is currently thought to be above $400. The most important point is that Apple has the ability beyond just about any other company on the planet to negotiate the lowest possible prices for high quality components. More likely than not, it would cost any other company more money, not less money, to make a handset that matched Apple quality in every single regard.

I'm quite happy to believe you on that .. and maybe an SE would be a good deal less expensive to manufacture than a 'Pro ... but many would not understand what the difference might be between a genuine Apple product and a look-a-like. That's why the Chinese do it ... isn't it ?

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/04/business/porsch...

All of their cars have been way too big for years

Panamax said: Are you Arthur Scargill? For the last 50 years UK has been much too expensive a country to manufacture anything. You might want to have a coal fire, drive a Morris Marina and eat pie & chips but most people don't. The motor industry packed up and left a long time ago, so we're just left with a few fragments still limping along, completely dependent on exports - if they can find them. Lol, brilliant.

Sidsw said: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/04/business/porsch... I couldn t access that article but Yahoo reports the following: Blume noted that Porsche is undergoing a transformation, and he is confident that investors would continue to recognize the stock's value. With "iconic products" and profit programmes, he said, Porsche would achieve higher share prices again in the future. "With Porsche's new direction, we have a clear ambition to return to the DAX as soon as possible.". This sounds quite desperate and confused. He thinks both the brand history and the new direction are reasons to excite investors but from a customer point of view this tension, the brand s past and future being distinct, is exactly the problem. And the thing that really excites investors is enthusiasm from customers, not brand history that has not yet linked to a long term profitable strategy for a totally new product approach. They haven't nailed a convincing story of change to my mind. Covering those beautiful new showrooms with artwork of racing glory whilst the floor is filled with EVs wearing a roof tent seems like a very short term solution. Edited by JustinC79 on Friday 12th September 12:25

said: I couldn t access that article but Yahoo reports the following: Blume noted that Porsche is undergoing a transformation, and he is confident that investors would continue to recognize the stock's value. With "iconic products" and profit programmes, he said, Porsche would achieve higher share prices again in the future. "With Porsche's new direction, we have a clear ambition to return to the DAX as soon as possible.". This sounds quite desperate and confused. He thinks both the brand history and the new direction are reasons to excite investors but from a customer point of view this tension, the brand s past and future being distinct, is exactly the problem. And the thing that really excites investors is enthusiasm from customers, not brand history that has not yet linked to a long term profitable strategy for a totally new product approach. They haven't nailed a convincing story of change to my mind. Covering those beautiful new showrooms with artwork of racing glory whilst the floor is filled with EVs wearing a roof tent seems like a very short term solution. The article just said that Porsche had been dropped by DAX so not that exciting. I think you may have misunderstood Blume. I believe his message is continued investment in ICE, what he calls iconic models, with more drivetrain flex so there will be pure ICE, PHEV, and EV, and they want to cut costs to hit 20% margins. Nothing particularly out of the ordinary and I think mostly an acknowledgement that they went too fast towards EVs and that there is plenty of life and profitability left in the “iconic” models.

I hope they take care in their cost cutting ... when I had my car in with Jens Ehressman for tuning he observed that he had not seen a GT4 with as much corrosion on the various fixings ... he mentioned at the time that Porsche were choosing the cheapest they could find and that some owners chose to replace them with better quality fixings before they became a pain to remove ... And we know that there have been serial failures of gearboxes (981 third gear change ), engine mounts (which may still not be resolved) ... exposed turbochargers (cooling ?) ... cost cutting can be a dangerous balance ...

ChrisW. said: I hope they take care in their cost cutting ... when I had my car in with Jens Ehressman for tuning he observed that he had not seen a GT4 with as much corrosion on the various fixings ... he mentioned at the time that Porsche were choosing the cheapest they could find and that some owners chose to replace them with better quality fixings before they became a pain to remove ... And we know that there have been serial failures of gearboxes (981 third gear change ), engine mounts (which may still not be resolved) ... exposed turbochargers (cooling ?) ... cost cutting can be a dangerous balance ... To be fair, people having been saying this about Porsche fixings for the last 25 years. I don't think they are really any worse than any other manufacturer in this regard.

LennyM1984 said: ChrisW. said: I hope they take care in their cost cutting ... when I had my car in with Jens Ehressman for tuning he observed that he had not seen a GT4 with as much corrosion on the various fixings ... he mentioned at the time that Porsche were choosing the cheapest they could find and that some owners chose to replace them with better quality fixings before they became a pain to remove ... And we know that there have been serial failures of gearboxes (981 third gear change ), engine mounts (which may still not be resolved) ... exposed turbochargers (cooling ?) ... cost cutting can be a dangerous balance ... To be fair, people having been saying this about Porsche fixings for the last 25 years. I don't think they are really any worse than any other manufacturer in this regard. I think what has really happened Is Porsche used to use high quality fasteners and now use the same as all other VAG vehicles which is inferior to what used to be used. Hence the lessening of perceived quality.

ChrisW. said: I hope they take care in their cost cutting ... when I had my car in with Jens Ehressman for tuning he observed that he had not seen a GT4 with as much corrosion on the various fixings ... he mentioned at the time that Porsche were choosing the cheapest they could find and that some owners chose to replace them with better quality fixings before they became a pain to remove ... And we know that there have been serial failures of gearboxes (981 third gear change ), engine mounts (which may still not be resolved) ... exposed turbochargers (cooling ?) ... cost cutting can be a dangerous balance ... We had a Macan T loan car for a couple of weeks recently, my wife has a 2018 MacanTurbo PP. The quality of the interior on the newer cars is very obviously a step backwards....the plastic are very definitely more plastic...quality of seat construction materials worse etc etc I thought the same the first time I sat in a 992....cheaper interior materials than a 991.2. If they're doing that where you can see it I imagine it is much worse elsewhere !

Cheib said: We had a Macan T loan car for a couple of weeks recently, my wife has a 2018 MacanTurbo PP. The quality of the interior on the newer cars is very obviously a step backwards....the plastic are very definitely more plastic...quality of seat construction materials worse etc etc I thought the same the first time I sat in a 992....cheaper interior materials than a 991.2. If they're doing that where you can see it I imagine it is much worse elsewhere ! Thought the same when I drove the 992 , noticeable drop in quality but it’s the same with many manufacturers ,

sam.rog said: I think what has really happened Is Porsche used to use high quality fasteners and now use the same as all other VAG vehicles which is inferior to what used to be used. Hence the lessening of perceived quality. Fixings not great on 9x6 cars, definitely bad on 9x7 cars, both of which predated the VW acquisition by many years. 9x1 cars came out a year before the VW deal, too. You'd be looking at 991.2 and 982 cars to have even a small opportunity for VW influence to lower quality of fixings, etc. Have they and other visible materials gotten even worse since? Possibly, but I don't think the quality issues such that they are are "because VAG." I think it's more "because modern mass produced car." Ensuring high quality across the board probably eats into margins too much.

ChrisW. said: I hope they take care in their cost cutting ... when I had my car in with Jens Ehressman for tuning he observed that he had not seen a GT4 with as much corrosion on the various fixings ... he mentioned at the time that Porsche were choosing the cheapest they could find and that some owners chose to replace them with better quality fixings before they became a pain to remove ... And we know that there have been serial failures of gearboxes (981 third gear change ), engine mounts (which may still not be resolved) ... exposed turbochargers (cooling ?) ... cost cutting can be a dangerous balance ... I'm guessing a German company would not be used to seeing British cars very often? The UK uses an enormity of salt in comparison to other countries and this leads to a lot of rust.

That certainly is correct ...

Count897 said: Nobody wants EVs. This idiotic eco legislation needs to be binned sharpish. It will only stop when Agenda 2030 and the attempted extensions are stopped. Most of what has been introduced in the name of climate protection is nothing more than a long-term attempt to further reduce individual freedom and centralize control over what are loosely still national economies.

Night Owl said: Count897 said: Nobody wants EVs. This idiotic eco legislation needs to be binned sharpish. It will only stop when Agenda 2030 and the attempted extensions are stopped. Most of what has been introduced in the name of climate protection is nothing more than a long-term attempt to further reduce individual freedom and centralize control over what are loosely still national economies. That's what they want you to think. It's actually all a conspiracy to sell more tinfoil.

otolith said: It's actually all a conspiracy to sell more tinfoil.

I think there are an awful lot of people that do want and like EV’s. Won’t be found on the PH Porsche forum probably !

franki68 said: Thought the same when I drove the 992 , noticeable drop in quality but it s the same with many manufacturers , Just this!!!! We sold our 2020 992 C2S, was used loads, 22k miles and a good/high spec. Was waiting for 992.2 turbo (non S), but...... then a GT4 came up and I bought it, it's 2023 with 1200 miles - so one of the last 718 GT4 and THE INTERIOR QUALITY IS DEFFO BETTER THAN THE 992. Buttons are better, just a better all round finish, 992.1 was deffo a cheaper feel and we specced up a good bit. In hindsight I should never have sold my beloved 2016 Macan GTS - fantastic quality and sounded beautiful. Big regrets

It's easy to try to justify a cheaper purchase on the basis of "quality," but the interior of my 991.2 Turbo S feels much more premium than my mate's 992.1. It seems like the move to full digital dashboards came with cheaper switchgear and a general drop in interior quality standards. Whether that also translates to the mechanicals is probably not as easy to identify. It's academic to me either way as I couldn't justify the £50k premium for the 992, regardless. I don't feel like I'm missing much though.

Cheib said: I think there are an awful lot of people that do want and like EV s. Won t be found on the PH Porsche forum probably ! Some of us are here! Admittedly my Taycan is my first Porsche, and I'm privileged to have at home charging plus live in an area where there are plenty of high speed public chargers, I'm a fan. I am of the school that the 911 was basically a squashed beetle and that proper sports cars came from Lotus though

I think theyre building so many different models to support the big one (911) that theyre starting to dilute the badge. Theyre becoming an EV/SUV company that builds a couple of cool sportscars and people aren't going to pay (have already stopped paying) premium prices for that. There isn't much in the current range that interests me and certainly not at the prices being asked now.

CLK-GTR said: I think theyre building so many different models to support the big one (911) that theyre starting to dilute the badge. Theyre becoming an EV/SUV company that builds a couple of cool sportscars and people aren't going to pay (have already stopped paying) premium prices for that. There isn't much in the current range that interests me and certainly not at the prices being asked now. They've been an SUV company with a sideline in sports cars for a long time.

GT3RS < Seems to be loads of 992 GT3RS for sale in the UK, some barely used and in this case 50k off the inital price on AT. I don't know if this is typical of GT3RS sales that they tend to slow down after the initial hype but only a year ago werent these still selling for overs?

sam.rog said: I think what has really happened Is Porsche used to use high quality fasteners and now use the same as all other VAG vehicles which is inferior to what used to be used. Hence the lessening of perceived quality. Porsche platforms don’t use the same fixings as the broader VW group. Why do you think they do?

I noticed cost cutting when I changed over from my 2014 Macan S to my 2016 Macan GTS. 2 things that were obvious straight away was the amount of plastic that covered things under the bonnet had reduced considerably and the blinking LEDs that flashed on the top of the doors when the car was locked had disappeared from the passenger side entirely to be replaced by a black plastic blanking cap.

otolith said: They've been an SUV company with a sideline in sports cars for a long time. 15 years ago they made the 911, 718 and the Cayenne to plump up revenues. Now there's the 911, 718, Cayenne, Macan, Panamera and Taycan, with EV Cayenne and Macan appearing too. Too much going on there distracting from the halo model.

CLK-GTR said: otolith said: They've been an SUV company with a sideline in sports cars for a long time. 15 years ago they made the 911, 718 and the Cayenne to plump up revenues. Now there's the 911, 718, Cayenne, Macan, Panamera and Taycan, with EV Cayenne and Macan appearing too. Too much going on there distracting from the halo model. The halo model provides the hook for everything else that actually make money.

The Cayenne was their biggest selling model through most of the 00’s.

cseven said: gtsralph said: Macan NA future but some time to survive on EV alone and will basically be a Q5 in drag with identical front biased 4wd as they don't have the time or funds for a rear biased Porsche setup....Porsche will be badge engineering for the 1st time. lol... it obviously never worked out for Porsche the first time they used this strategy?