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YOUR RESEARCH9A1 Engine Swap
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Replace into are pretty easy
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Swapping these engines into other chassis is easier, too, because the cars' wiring that these engines have been swapped into are pretty easy to tap into.
Leading evidence: 'Replace into are pretty easy' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'engine bolts right up' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Repair 996 motor' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Suggestion
but judging by things I've read about other swaps, I would think the entire drive train and associated wiring harness(es) would have to be changed over.
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So the ECU, harness and cluster are all probably need to be swapped over/modified.
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All of them changed valve/cam tech over the years.
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Swapping these engines into other chassis is easier, too, because the cars' wiring that these engines have been swapped into are pretty easy to tap into.
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Suggestion
but judging by things I've read about other swaps, I would think the entire drive train and associated wiring harness(es) would have to be changed over.
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Suggestion
- I think generally speaking when doing a swap like this you need to think about what electronics you need to make the engine run right (usually ECU from engine donor Or something like mega squirt) and to make the Car run (ecu from the car); and then figure out how to make them run side by side happily sharing signals or dividing accordingly; along with all the other stuff in the car(immobilized, etc...).
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Forgive me if this question has been asked before: Considering a 9A1 engine for my '02 996 (six speed). What all needs to be changed? Computer, obviously. Clutch most likely. Transmission? Thank you.
No practical knowledge, so take this with a grain of salt... but judging by things I've read about other swaps, I would think the entire drive train and associated wiring harness(es) would have to be changed over. I suppose if you have access to a "cheap" wrecked 991, it could be done but... ... ... sounds like a world o' trouble
Do it !
Im of no real help but have thrown the idea around of a motor swap.
I would purchase wrecked car (either 996 or 997 chassis) to take required parts from and part it out upon completion.
Assuming, motor, trans, Ecu, cluster, ignition immobilizer, body control module and prob a ton of stuff I haven’t thought about.
For me, would not attempt without having the donor car to pull from.
Here is the part I don’t get. Swapping in an LS1...easy. Swapping in an Audi V8.....not quite at easy, but doable. Swapping in anything from a later model 911.....oh that is impossible. In the BMW world swapping engines is just a Tuesday, everyone does it. Heck in the early 911s everyone swapped everything up and down the years. Why the heck is it so hard to get any kind of info on doing a 997 swap into a 996. This should be pretty well established by now. OK I am done ranting, hopefully someone will chime in with some personal experience on getting this done. I have been contemplating this myself in comparison to an engine rebuild.
The hard part is all the electronics. Sensors are different. ECUs are different. Immobilizer. Wiring harness. Valve timing methods and components. Etc.
Watch Hoovies videos on the LS swap. Getting most of the gauges to work was a challenge. Notice how I said "most".
The reason is that the market is small because porsche owners are mostly fans of originality and the cars and motors are pricey. When 70s air cooled cars were cheap and had rudimentary engine control systems, why not swap away. E36s and 46s are cheap and people modify the nuts out of them, so there is a market for tuners, fabricators, wiring shops etc to make kits for such swaps.
The Porsche swaps are difficult because they often made changes to the wiring, sensors, technology, even mid-production.
This has nothing to do with how easy swaps are in other cars. lol
Most other car companies usually didn't change too much throughout the runs of each model and many of the other cars in the manufacturer's line-up shared components. Porsche doesn't do that.
The LS swap became very popular because, for the cost of the engine and the power, it was worth fabricating engine mounts, etc.
Same thing happen to the Honda K20/K24 engines. Cheap, readily available engine that has tremendous potential, so worth looking into fabricating mounts into other cars.
Swapping these engines into other chassis is easier, too, because the cars' wiring that these engines have been swapped into are pretty easy to tap into.
I like the discussion here so far, but no one has chimed in with any actual experience swapping one of these. I know there are a few lurkers around here who have. Anyway, BMW, Audi, VW, Porsche and Mercedes all use common suppliers for the electronics so you would be amazed how all of them are alike. All of them changed valve/cam tech over the years. All of them changed security and cluster wiring . The ECUs can have the immobilizer disabled and clusters can be swapped over. Is it easy? Probably not, but it can be done and if there is a market for it, then it can be replicated. With the price of the 9A1 motors coming down from wrecked cars in comparison to a rebuild there has to be an emerging market for it. I would suspect the engine bolts right up to the the existing transmission. So the ECU, harness and cluster are all probably need to be swapped over/modified. Beyond that it can’t be rocket science. Heck look at a speck racer and that is all that is in the car is the ECU harness and a custom cluster. There is knowlege on this somewhere.
I built my own ITB setup and Megasquirt ecu to run my 71 911 with Ford EDIS. There was no harness to modify, I had to make one from scratch and figure out how to make it work with the car. Not apples to apples, but it took me 2 years to do. I documented every step of it and published it on Pelican. Heck I still get PMs about how to do it things or to share my ignition map. That was before PMO had a kit and before Microsquirt had a nice harness and prewired coil drivers. It would be nice to see someone jump into this and help out the community. With young kids and a more demanding job right now I don’t have to time to do it myself.
Just like when no one wanted to share how to repair a 996 motor after a cracked cylinder head 10 years ago. It's bc those people that have the knowledge keep it to themselves to profit from for their business. Honestly the 997 isnt that hard of a swap and I cant imagine a 9A1 is either. Get the wiring diagrams and know what the ecu/sensors are looking for and have them wired into the system correctly. Having a piwis II is also very helpful for this.
Ok I'll throw out the first BIG stumbling block to this thread. The 9A1 engine does not bolt up to the 996/997 transmission. That said, that is not the biggist headache with doing this swap, you'll need to redesign/modify/improvise pretty much every system on the car, very modern cars are very integrated especially electronics wise.
A few thoughts:
- Someone mentioned BMWs and engine swaps and I would just point out that generally speaking the amount to gain or lose messing with even a 996 is a bit higher than trying to shove an S5_ engine in a non-M E46.
- I think generally speaking when doing a swap like this you need to think about what electronics you need to make the engine run right (usually ECU from engine donor Or something like mega squirt) and to make the Car run (ecu from the car); and then figure out how to make them run side by side happily sharing signals or dividing accordingly; along with all the other stuff in the car(immobilized, etc...). Or have some sort of programmed ecu. I agree with some the reason an Audi V8 might swap in more easily is that as someone pointed out above since the sensors are from similar era and manufacturers the signals and values tend to be the same.
- The transmission thing seems not too big of a hurdle; I�d be inclined to get a 997.2 transmission at least on a quick review the mounting points and methods look the same form the pictures I just looked up.
- I just don�t know what the return on investment is like for the swap- I have to imagine you could get rebuilt m96 for similar money and way less headaches. But there is a joy in figuring things like this out and I�m sure if you shared others would love to learn from it...
the other point is what the car will be used for. If you want a fully operational street car, you will have a harder time than a stripped down track car. Guys run spec boxsters on like 8 wires.
None of the wiring or ecu compatibility is insurmountable, but the issue is how much do you want to pay for a tuner to figure it out. If you just dump an engine and a car on a shop, well, expect an easy 20k bill.
Digging this one back up. Theoretically if a 9A1 engine didn't have the DI would a swap into a 996 chassis be more feasible? Anyone have some insight into the 9A1 engine? other than the DI is it similarly wired to a M96/M97? The engine has a ton of improvements. Jethro Bovingdon of EVO/TG USA fame had a DI 9A1 engine swapped into his 996 and the shop (Litchfield) said it was a nightmare due to wiring.
Most of it is getting the engine to start and run without having all of the ancillary things like theft and can signals. Lots of things put these cars into limp mode when they are stock, so putting it in a car without any of these needed items is an issue.
It�s really the tuning support that may be lacking, as there aren�t lots of people wanting to take a flat 6 and install it in anything but a 911. it simply doesn�t fit. A small v8 like the LS fits in lots of things and is not that expensive, so there�s lots of options for tuning, and they are 25 year old much simpler electronics.
Ahh right. Had not considered that. The earliest/simplest 9A1 car is still from 2009 and had many bells and whistles. I'm so used to OBD1 cars that only requre a few wires to get running
The newer the donor, the more important it is to grab EVERYTHING. The can bus starts to get really complex in its seemingly non sensical integration of various components. De Jeeper went through some of it in his swap, basically .2 electronics into a .1 chassis, the .1 has very limited can bus integration, it wasn't until the .2 that stuff really comes into play, and gets worse from there.
When I say everything, I'm talking about basically the entire wiring harness and anything plugged into it. Then you may run into config issues with things where the hardware just isn't close enough to bolt the newer stuff on, then you're moving into fab, not just for the engine and gearbox but maybe also things like wheel speed sensors.
On my swap, I am going to go away from the factory harness / electronics completely, which sounds good in and of itself, but... it presents challenges with my .2 systems I want to keep which are tied into the factory can bus, most notable the ABS. As a workaround to this, I'm switching to a .1 ABS which does not have that can bus issue. On a street car where you want A/C, ABS, PSM, Radio etc... my solution is no good - you need to be able to replicate in can the signals from all the modules that are tied into it for them to work, its doable for someone who knows what they are doing... but absolutely something the vast majority off tuners/shops are not capable of doing.
I think the reason we have not seen a lot of these swaps is due to what the cost of entry is to even start it. $12K-$18K for a good 996 with great suspension, brakes, etc. 991 Drivetrain $30K-$40K (engine & trans). Figure another $8K-$10K worth of crap you will need (computers, cluster, speed sensors, etc.) and you are at $50K-$68K just in parts before any work begins. That's a price that is not too far from just buying a 991.
Sure, it would be pretty amazing, but the juice is not worth the squeeze. You are only getting 80-120 more HP. There are cheaper ways of getting that type of power.
So again.. the issue isn't necessarily the DI part of the equation. It's everything else tied to the harness and getting the engine to function. Helpful info
You could get the motor to run with a standalone ECU, there�s work in that too�.but, the big challenge is getting the motor AND AC, ABS, PSM etc�.. to run IMO.
it's already been done by Jethro Bovingdon.. If it was me i would reach out the shop (Litchfield motors in UK) that did his and ask about the process and other questions.. I will say they are using a standlaone ecu (
syvecs)
based on the comments in the thread link below
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...t=1927095&i=20
Instagram
I've considered it. Just not sure how forthcoming they're going to be with information they've worked hard to amass. Been following that thread. My theory was that a non-DI 9A1 engine might be a more doable swap than the larger DI ones. Although it seems that notion might be bunk
This. I am always amazed when I hear that the new generation of 911 has 70% new parts compared to the old one, and yet a 911 looks like a 911. Why change more than half the car just to make it look like the same car again, lol. Or why change when it�s so darn good to begin with. I guess it�s the constant pursuit of improvement.
Well...
We know anything can ultimately be swapped. Then three important questions always materialize.
1. What will it actually cost?
2. What am I really getting for the money?
3. Is it really worth it?
No clue as to the answers on a 9A1 swap. But if you are game, and have the budget with plenty of cushion, you got my vote!
Well considering 991 GT3 engines are sub $30k and a full wiring harness is $500... Even the best built M96s can't hold a candle to a Porsche Motorsport unit
although it seems integrating into a 996 chassis is a pipe dream
Get it while it's cheap. The 991 and 992 are all "throw away" engines. Nobody rebuilds one, they just trade it in for another. Just like our m96 engines back in the day. $15k less your trade for $7.5k would get you a complete bolt in replacement for a net cost of $7.5k.
Think about that...
$7,500 for a complete replacement engine. None of us ever worried about engine failure. It was an inexpensive and great program. Unfortunately, the m96 "throw away" program is alot more expensive today.
Hope you can figure out how to fit a 992 gt3rs engine in your car. Sure would love to see it!
Lady's and Gentlemen,
@De Jeeper
has just shown how to properly "step up to the plate" !!!!
@Sam-Son
seems to be putting on his Big Boy pants....is this for real ?? Are we going to see another one-off example of exquisite Porsche Component Interpolation ?
I know
@De Jeeper
has the determination/skill/commitment to pull it off, but does
@Sam-Son
have a thick enough wallet??
Stay Tuned !!!
ahaha actually the real question is.. Am I that dedicated to the 996 platform?
I'll always lust for something cooled by air. Although a 997.2 which came with a 9A1 could provide for an even easier swap.
DeJeeper- I'll keep you on speedial
Reviving this thread but it looks like this shop figured out how to get the 9a1 into a 993/964:
https://www.speeddensitymotorsports....3-964-packages
Some photos here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...completed.html
Getting the 9a1 motor to work in the 964/993 chassis (especially with a stand-alone ECU) would be far easier than integrating it successfully into the 996 chassis, especially the 996.2 chassis.
For the record, I believe Ian Litchfield has said he would not entertain doing another 9a1 into 996 conversion ...
I understand the desire for a unique/more powerful engine in the back of a 996 chassis having commissioned the fitment of a 997 Cup engine into my Mk 1 996 GT3 here in the UK :
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=134448
I thought the end result would be peak N/A 996, you might say a 996 panacea, and for some it most likely would be, but for me it wasn�t.
So if you�re wanting 400hp in a 996 chassis, do yourself a massive favour, and buy a 996.2 GT3, as by the time you�ve invested in a 9a1 engine and transmission and fitted it to your beloved 996 chassis, bought a stand-alone ECU, and wired it, along with all the numerous modifications required to both the engine and chassis to make the conversion work, you�ll be well on the way to the purchase price of a genuine 996 GT3 (especially if you�re paying someone to undertake the conversion for you) and the residuals of an original 996 GT3 will remain rock solid over the coming years, whilst those of �bastardised� 996 C2/4�s will not.
