996 Engine Failure

I have 1998 C2 996 that has covered only 46k miles and has a full dealer service history. After taking it to my dealer for a major service I noticed oil in the expansion tank. The dealer took the car back and said they had traced it to a faulty Oil Separator. They replaced the item, put a detergent in the coolant and told me to drive it for a few hundred miles. They then were planning to take the car back and change the coolant. About 1000miles later the car blew a coolant hose because of the volume of emulsified oil in the cooling system. Clearly the dealer had not solved the problem. The dealer has now stripped the engine and is claiming that it needs replaced (at a £13k cost!). The cause, apparantly is a crack in the cylinder liner - I find this hard to believe and would therefore like to hear from anyone that can point me in the right direction wrt porous blocks, or similar experiences. thanks Craig

Craig, We were having this discussion at work yesterday, a lot of dealers seem too eagre to replace engines that could be easily repaired. Most don't have the expertise to deal with such re-builds and play the un-ecnomic repair card!! Might be worth getting a second opinion from a reputable specialist. I would imagine if you've had coolant and oil mixing, the bearings will be damaged and the pistons, rings and liners will have 'suffered'. A good crank re-grind with new pistons, rods and either liners or overbore should sort that one out. Cracked liner at 48k miles, sounds like the original parts were not up to standard to me!! I doubt it would be due to block porousity, that would be something that would have reared its head from new I would have thiught. Good luck,

I dont actually own a 996, but be assured there was a problem with some 996 engines from new,most were dealt with early on ,some could have slipped through...........truly do nt know precise details, must be worth pursuing through main agency or Reading.

Very sorry to hear whats happened. Try posting on Rennlist.com and doing a search. Sometimes you get people giving you original Porsche recall document sheet numbers to quote to dealers which can help your case. I cant believe a car with so little milage has had such a big problem! Best of luck with getting it solved!

Worrying..... The only cracked liner I have ever heard of was PK Sports RSR at Le Mans a couple of years ago. Even if it is a different block/engine they said it was very unusual for a Porsche to suffer this type of fault.

A good start point might be to determine what caused the liner to crack. Engage a proffessional motor engineer to examine all of the components, with a view to determine cause & effect. i.e. sequence of events. It overheated & then cracked a liner, or the liner cracked due to premature material failure which then lead to overheating oil in water etc. You then have either grounds for discussion with Porsche on fitness for purpose or latent defect or not. If so it provides leverage for manufacturer and supplying dealer goodwil gesture [less betterment ] If not then you are then free to pursue the market for least cost of repair/second hand engine or whatever. If you leave it up to the dealer, it is in his interest to supply you goods or services for as much as they can, it is the business they are in after all. Get it inspected sooner rather than later. Allan

Unfortunately it's not just 996 owners either - there have been a number of Boxster engine failures (identical engine to 996, just different capacity). I was one of the lucky who had their engine replaced under warranty, but was told that if I was even 1 day out of warranty then I would have been given a bill for £12K, which is a bit worrying to say the least.

Andrew, I read the article in the Post too with much interest as I am one of the unhappy number. Last November my (wife's) 1998 996 C2 Cab, with 40,000 miles on the clock, two sensible owners and a full OPC service history, needed a new engine after a crank case cracked. I spoke to the chief engineer at my OPC in Chiswick who said he had never seen anything like it before and had no idea how it could have happened. I also spoke to a senior technician at Reading who told me he knew of two previous crank cases cracking, but Chiswick seemed wholly uninterested in reporting it to Germany and asked me for £9,500 for the new engine and the necessary 40 hours' labour. After some valuable advice and moral support from club members through this forum, and after an almighty row with the OPC about the purpose of a warranty (ie it is an owner's insurance policy against repair costs, not a deciding factor in who is responsible for catastrophic engine failure) we settled at £3,200, which they told me was the "at cost" engine and free labour. I made some legal enquiries about the Sale of Goods Act and "fit for purpose" and the conclusion seemed to be I could claim against Porsche Finance as technically they had sold me the car, but not against the OPC or the manufacturer. At the time I let my heart rule my head and agreed to the £3,200 so I could get the car back on the road and maintain a reasonable relationship with the OPC, but I am beginning to realise I have 20-20 hindsight which is a wonderful thing. Does the 996 Register have an idea of how many members have lost an engine, I wonder?

Higgy - so was your car under warranty at the time?

Personally, I suspect that Boxster/996 engine failures are pretty rare. There may have been some issues with early engines, but later failures wil probably be below the industry average for high performance cars. Most Porsches are used as they were intended, including commuting, touring, track days etc, with no ill effect. And, not all owners are mechanically sympathetic - some never even check their oil levels. I'm not saying that there aren't any issues, but with the emergence of these forums, bad experiences can be blown out of proportion, leading to mis-information and scaremongering.

If you are faced with a failure out of warranty wouldn't it be more sensible to get the engine rebuilt? I know an OPC would want to sell you a replacement engine, but independents would surely be able to rebuild - all the parts are available.

Andrew I was out of warranty. I had decided not to renew and to put the equivalant £1,000 aside in the bank for repairs. I had thought hard about this and had decided that a 4-year old £85,000 piece of machinery was highly unlikely to incur anywhere near this sum in repairs. (There's my 20-20 hindsight again!) As I say, I find the warranty issue irrelevant. A warranty is purely an insurance policy for the owner against potential costs. For an OPC to treat it as some sort of licence to own the vehicle is nonsensical. When my £900 fridge broke down after 15 months, 3 months out of warranty, the shop replaced it immediately as £900 fridges are supposed to last longer than 12 months. As for Oliver's message, I can assure you that my case contains no misinformation: a well-cared for engine broke for a reason that not even Porsche could fathom. That's not intended to be scaremongering, and indeed our next purchase will probably be another 911. But I find it pretty scary! And I wish Richard Hamilton had been around at the time. I might well have followed his advice. I shall certainly remember it for next time (heaven forbid). Regards Higgy

I've often wondered how the Sale of Goods Act (1979) relates to 2 year warrantys... http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/salegoodsact.htm There is still a requirement for the item bought to be "fit for purpose".

Hi, This is annoying because I don't think they would have published that letter if the 996 was a current model. I think it was just to balance the annoyance people felt when the editor seemed to suggest frequent oil changes would help! Getting back to what is and what is'nt. The letter was ill informed. There is an issue with reduced/regulated oil pressures during high g cornering for std cars(not turbo/GT2/3) But I've yet to hear of anyone in the world has to date suffered a failure due to this. You'll struggle to do it on the road anyway. So I'd say don't worry. My extended warrantee for year 3 is quoted as £725 unlimited mileage and that a porsche run,so doesn't that reflect the risk.A mondeo would £350 I'd guess

I have asked the PP editor about the letter re 996 failures in the October PP but seems nothing more than publishing what a member wrote. I have written a small piece in the next issue to add a little about we are doing in this area. I was very surprised to read the "information" in this letter and followed the link to the 911uk.com forum. Needless to say, I am completely unconvinced that there is a "designed in" oil starvation problem. Think of all the track days these cars do. It is a shame when mis-information obscures genuine problems and the attempts to sort them. There are of course sporadic (but major when they occur) problems with Boxster and 996 as mentioned above. So far as I know, the ONLY wider spread problem is the RMS. Porsche are becoming more responsive to assisting with these problems though there is still some way to go. Btw, I noted the letter in Sunday Times where an Audi TT owner had an expensive cam belt failure at 70k miles - the belt is changed in the 80k service. Audi would not offer any compensation at all

I started the thread in the 911uk.com forum after my car failed at 30k. I have to say that the issues with oil starvation is not really the issue for most people but 996 engines do fail. I set up a database and to date have collected about 40 genuine cases of catastrophic engine failures from owners that have driven the car sensibly and had then serviced at OPC for the duration of the cars life. The main issue is to do with the lack of help offered by the OPC and PGB and the level of misdirection and misinformation given by all of them. I am sorry but when a car costing 80K fails due to no fault of the owner then the responsiblity lies solely(if not for the great %) with the manufactuer. When you dont get the level of service that you expect then there will be dissatisfied customers. Its now been 4 months since my car failed. PGB customer service has been totally useless and actually managed to send me a letter to say that Porsches will fail at 5years even with a low mileage. I have now managed to get through to the legal department in Germany and they have untill the close of buisnesss this Friday to give me an answer. If they dont then my solicitors have already got the material to issue a summons. With thanks to all those concerned we have, so far, raised in the region of 500k towards the legal battle. Wish us luck, it will be for the good of all of us here. Those that have had failures and those of us who so far have been lucky

Mahen Thanks for the input and please keep us posted. IMO consumer legislation in this country is yet to be fully tested through the courts but I feel such action will be one answer to the catastrophic engine failures that are happening on a too regular basis with our chosen marque. As a matter of interest I asked what would happen if an engine blew outside warranty with a Japanese car. The response (the cynic says they would say that anyway) was the company would want the engine back to find out what caused the problem to ensure it was a 'one off' and would likely be supportive. I suspect Porsche would not have room to store their 'one off's' let alone wish to identify the numbers involved. All power to Nic and his work with RMS failures - I think we know what will follow [ ]

Mahen Please feel free to add me to your database. And best of luck with your legal action. Higgy

It is with despair that I read all the emails re 996/Boxster engine failures. Whilst I am the first to admit that I only occassionally access the forum ( it makes for very dull reading ! ), the overriding impression I get is that that 996/Boxster owners who suffer this problem have met with no favourable response from OPC's, Porsche Cars GB or our club- am I right in thinking that ? I have also been given to believe that the situation is quite different in the USA, where owners have received more help. One of the best ways forward in dealing with this problem is to group together, yet when I as a lawyer gave my phone number to a member who asked for it with a view to dealing with this major issue, he never rang me ! So much for getting started on this problem ! As it happens, I, after many years ownership/membership of Porsches and the Club, am getting sick to death with everything that is Porsche ( I plan to sell my 996 and buy a DB9), and the constant b----y wingeing of owners who wuss out in dealing with this problem in a mature and sensible manner, yet f--t around like headless b---y chickens has done much to disenchant me ! I wish you the best of luck in dealing with problem, you are certainly going to need it !! If, in the meantime, anyone who wishes to get off their a--e and start cracking on and sort it out, would like to add me to their mailing list ( I am not going to renew my membership, which is due now ), then I will certainly offer what help I can, or at least until I get shot of my b----y 996 (which hasn't had an engine failure !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ) Steve Lyden-Brown. Emails to [email removed].

Mahen, this is a great effort. Sadly, the number of cases you mention is higher than I would have expected. I am about to send out the 996 RMS survey and this also covers major engine failures, so I will see what the results are. Which entity will you cite in the legal action and how long do you anticipate it to take?

Steve I appreciate your frustration, having followed your previous posts to this forum (you're a lawyer, aren't you?). Indeed, it was some of your advice, along with that of other members, that helped me negotiate my £9,500 bill down to a third last year. Don't give up on us. It is just that when your car blows up and the "Official" Porsche person tells you you are as f***ed as the car, you tend to take it on trust. It is only later that you find out there are dozens in the same boat and that what you are being told is crap. Regards Higgy Whingeing, farting bloody chicken wuss.

Right folks I'm going to add my 2p's worth as a Boxster S owner who's recently suffered a major engine failure (14k miles, full OPC history with engine replaced under warranty) You'll have to forgive me if some of the technical expressions are not quite correct - a girl on a steep learning curve! My engine failed, without warning and without being driven aggresively; the cause was subsequently discovered to be 3 split liners on one side of the engine....with no good reason for it occuring. In the space of 5 weeks or so, I have read reports of at least 5 996/986 engines failing on other Porsche forums...aux drive shaft bearing failure, liners moving and my "split liners" I have no idea what %age of the total Porsche owners belong to a marque related forum, I'd hazard a guess at not too many. I'd suggest that 5 "forum" reported engine failures in a short period of time represents a high failure rate if extrapolated to account for the non forum paticipating Porsche owners. Two days ago my OPC disclosed that they had one Boxster and one 996 in their workshops awaiting engine replacement. By way of comparison (poor I know) I only recall 2 engine failures reported on an Audi forum in two years. Rightly or wrongly, I can only surmise that the attrition rate on these Porsche engines is very high. While I read elsewhere that the RMS issue is being actively pursued by the PCGB (well done) I cannot (selfishly perhaps) help but think that the engine failure rate is perhaps more important? My understanding of the RMS issue is that it may cause a clutch failure...neither the seal or the clutch failing will result in an expensive engine replacement. In monetry terms RMS / clutch replacement will be about £1.6k versus engine replacement at around £12k upwards. Of course, I'll willingly be corrected if I have got the "wrong end of the stick" regarding the content of my post! Just feel that my confidence is slightly battered regarding the future longevity of the replacement engine. I count myself fortunate in being covered by the Porsche warranty scheme...having one engine failure is incentive enough to dig into my purse and cough up the £725 renewal cost every year! Jackie

jac in a box is right. the percentage of porsche owners that contribute to forums must be very low. so the number of instances of total engine failure is likely to be higher than any of us would want to believe. what i don't understand is why porsche is not desperately trying to placate aggrieved owners by repairing their cars as if under warranty - they must appreciate the damage that this could do to the marques reputation - the motoring press would have a field day! many other manufacturers would have already stripped the failed engines down and found the cause, or causes, of the problem. the lack of response from porsche, porsche GB and the OPC's has shocked me. does anyone know if our club has got involved at all?

n4das, good luck! Have I read your post correctly? You have raised £500k to support legal costs? If correct what an excellent achievement...I do hope you will keep us posted on the progress. NicD, I note you will be conducting a survey amongst 996 owners on the RMS issue and engine failure, has a similar survey been carried out for Boxster owners? I'd be interested to hear the results, are you still collecting info'? Jackie x

Jacquelyn , I conducted a survey of Boxster owners earlier in the year, were you not included? drop me an email to [email removed] The results were, almost 25% of the 50% of owners who replied had experienced RMS failure. It is not limited to any particular year or model variant. Many were fixed under warranty and some owners, I suspect are not aware. This is why the Club has been in strong talks with Porsche Cars for some time.

Jac and Andrew, we in the Club know of only a few failures, but when I made the Boxster RMS presentation to Porsche Cars, I also devoted some time to engine failures. I have asked owners to contact me and some have, i also mention this point on the 996 RMS survey going out shortly You mention 5 failures from Forums, but over what period did they occur? Remember, there are many thousands of 996 and 986 since 1997 out there, BUT for the owner. any failure is one too many. For me, its important to take out the extended warranty after year 3. That leaves one year at the mercy of goodwill, but everyone makes up their own minds BUT in my opinion, Porsche should warrant all major items for 10 years from mechanical failure provided properly serviced and not abused. I have asked members to let me know of their experiences and am gradually building a casebook, but Dr Nadarajah has the greatest list due to his strenuous efforts. One of the conundrums is, if you make a big song and dance about this, may attract negitve publicity which may affect resale values for the 99% (or whatever) of owners with unaffected cars. They wont thank the Club for this.

Jackie, You have read it correctly. Most of us like me have just contributed monies that we would have paid to upgrade to a 997 towards the legal costs. I personally have a retainer with the solicitors of 80k. The others have contributed various amounts Please dont get me wrong i dont want to take the marque to the cleaners, but when a contribution from the PGB is 800pounds towards a 10k bill you get PI$$ed off especially when the contribution is accompanied by attitude. You then get further infuriated by the fact that you are now listening to a recorded message read out by a gimp on the end of the phone who does not wish to listen to any logical argument. in what other field do you have the situation where you hand over 10's of thousands of pounds then get told the item that you have bought has failed due to no fault of your own. Steve I know what you mean by the attitude of some of the owners. I have to say i have met brick walls in my persuit of this matter. Mostly from those who have claimed that it was not possible for Porsches to fail or to fail so regularly. If Porsche does turn up in court then my solicitors will push for them to disclose the true number of failures. As you know the argument from Porsche "its a one off" will not stand up in court!

NicD Thanks for your response(s) The 5 failures I mentioned are all recent, all within the last 5 or 6 weeks...it does make for dismal reading. I understand the reticence, perhaps, of the PCGB to get too involved in these premature engine failure issues for fear of perhaps damaging future customer confidence / current owners residuals. From a non-technical perspective, and I'm non-tech!, it would appear the engine is fundamentally flawed...all the engine problems (resulting in a replacement engine) I have read of recently appear to be centred around liners or auxialliary driveshaft bearings...and of course, there is the RMS issue. I don't have a solution to offer. I'll continue to (selfishly) wrap myself in the comforting blanket of security the warranty provides, albiet at a cost (so much for buying into a marque with legendary bullet proof build quality) What does amaze me though is the inconsistency with which Porsche GB applies their goodwill. Some appear to be out of the warranty period and get the engine replacement free, some are paying a %age (variable) cost and some are left completely frozen out. I would have thought a modern, well designed engine should be good for at least 150k reliable miles before requiring any major remedial work...many of the failures I have read off occured at very low mileages. Jackie

n4das Amazing...and a courageous commitment! I take my hat off to you and sincerely wish you the very best of luck - a hint of David and Goliath? My money goes with David Jackie

Except that, this time, Goliath has no need to fight, and can just walk away, counting the profits.

I guess they can try but they would have to try and explain as to why a £80k car that has been fully serviced by an OPC fails at less than 13% of its published designed mileage due to a part that is not a wear and tear item. Further this part has never been touched by anybody other than the Porsche. In my case if this part had failed while i was driving at motorway speeds then it would have resulted in injury both myself and others (ask anyone what happens if a connecting rod snaps at 80mph!) Update from Porsche AG. After a week of thinking PAG now want my independant inspectors report to tell them whats wrong with my car. After some conversation it turns out this was because i would not "allow my car to be touched by Porsche". Considering that the car has been serviced and now dismanteled by the same OPC i have no idea how this has come about. Further i already sent a letter asking PGB to inspect my car about 8 weeks ago! I am sure it does not take that long to drive from Reading to Wilmslow!

Thanks, Higgy, for the words of encouragement, and, yes, I am a lawyer. I suppose that much of my disenchantment springs from too many years of club membership, since although it is very hard to stop loving 911's, I find that membership of the club does nothing for me nowadays. That, plus the arrival of the Aston Martin DB9, is sufficient to swing me away from even the delights of 996 ownership. If any other nails were needed in the coffin of my love affair with 911's, then Porsche's attitude to what is obvioulsy a major defect in their cars, is doing absolutely nothing to ensure continuing loyalty from me. However, I can see that I'm likely to keep my 996 until at least a used DB9 convertible falls within my price range, so I guess I'll be around a tad longer ! Cheers, Steve Lyden-Brown.

I purchased a 1999 C2 Cab with 49k miles a few months ago, and had an engine failure within a few hundred miles of purchasing the vehicle. While driving in 4th gear on the freeway at 70mph with other traffic, all of a sudden, the engine decided to throw out a huge plume of smoke, and after later inspection, a huge hole and crack was left thanks to the rod busting out of the core. Upon contacting porsche of north america, they told me they wouldn't take back the engine, and i'd have to pay $16k+ to replace the engine, since they wouldn't even take back the core, since it wasn't rebuidable. Because of this I decided to save $6000 and buy an engine out of a theft recovery 1999 porsche that had it's engine blow at 19k miles and had 9k miles on the rebuilt engine. A few hundred miles later, the temperature gauge kept flashing after driving for a few miles. I soon discovered the head gasket was leaking coolant, and most likely one of the cylinders internally had come out of it's sleeve.. regardless, the second engine with only 9k miles on it, would need to be replaced. So now I have another $16,000 to spend on a 3rd engine in less than 1,000 miles on a car with 50k miles on it. I'm not pushing my luck this time, and making sure I get the engine with the 24k mile, 2 year warranty.. then i'll be selling this vehicle and purchasing a car from a car company that gives a s**t about it's customers that purchase their $100k cars. Contacts with Porsche of North America... "Too bad so sad, there's nothing we can do for you." Dealerships.. "There's nothing we can do for you, you have to pay full dealer cost for the engine and labor. No discounts" After 2 engine fires, 3 engines, and $37,000 in maintenance costs in less than 1000 miles of having this vehicle, with absolutely no assistance from porsche, it can be rest assured I will not be purchasing another p-car in the near future from a company that treats it's customers worse than hyundai owners. For my full story, feel free to visit rennlist, to see all the problems i've had. I love the car, but it's not worth it, if I can only drive it one or two times every few months, when it's not on fire or in the shop... and having to start a new second business just to afford the maintenance costs. - BobPorsche996 in the USA

Bob Perhaps you would be good enough to respond to the doubts about the credibility issues?

Feel free to visit the forum.. I posted copies of my receipts recently.. on rennlist....

I have not had time to fully obtain the facts from Bob but i have to say that I have insisted that those who wish to get on the Database that i created suppy me with a copy of an independant engineers report. I really think that if you are not willing to do this then any case that you have will be flawed. I also have to add that in my opnion many US forums have the attitude "no Porsche fails".

Mahen I agree and would add from my short experience with our marque the US are not the only ones! [8|]

Guys, Sorry I am a little bit late in joining this thread, but last year my then 996 C4 had a new cylinder head at a cost of £5500... Porsche Cars GB gave me the same response you all seem to have had... I paid for its repair and sold it quickly, I now have a 993.. which doesn't seem to have any known problems. Do you wish to add my details to your list?? Regards Pennyless Charlie

How much proof do you want? I think this picture says all that there is need to be said. When I picked my car up yesterday for its 5th RMS replacement (it is now on its 6th!) these three 996 engines were racked up at the back with rain pooring over them waiting to go back to the factory. All blown engines.

Berny You seem to get where water can't - and with your camera [ ]

[ ][ ] Lates face it, they have to be real dumb to leave these engines stacked up where you drive your car in for service. Then I asked an engineer, what's with all these 996 engines out here in the rain? Oh them, they are all knackered and waiting to go back to Germany. I "always" keep my camera with me just in case [ ]

Hi Berny I sent NicD a load of pics of 7 similar blown and/or dismantled Boxster and 996 engines that were in the rain outside the back of Stratstone's in Wilmslow 'waiting to go back to Germany' (according to their parts guy). I've also noticed this pile of engines changes weekly so I think there are a lot more failures than we are aware of. Anyone else care to take similar pics of heaps of failed engines at their OPC? As you say, how the hell do they deny a problem if there is a bucketload photographic evidence? I would also be intrigued to find out the engine failure / RMS replacement rate experienced by the top dozen or so independents. I think a lot of older cars (like my '98) are out of the dealer loop now due to the insane hourly service costs. Ian W

Ian I have been taking a series of photos of the same pile in Wilmslow especailly the serial numbers. Yes you are right they do change quite often [ ]

Well when I took my car in to have the RMS done those engines in the pic mustn't have been there as I would have snapped the picture up then. So they must have turned up in a week! No doubt somone at reading will read this in the morning and there will be a massive cleanup campaign accross Britain this week with all the OPCs to get rid of these public display of blown engines. So lets nip this in the bud people. Get down to your local OPC and snap up some picks of the back of your OPC and post them here. At least report in to us if you see similar piles of engines or not whatever the case may be.

Berny, just seen your post about broken engines etc. Unfortunately was too late for the metal but enclosed picture of the next best thing

Not sure if you guys caught the item on Top Gear about 997 on Sunday . Especially the incident with the gearstick cover. Even the build quality on the "new" 997 seems a little flawed [ ]

do these failures also relate to the 996 turbo 2003 model??

Not sure, but I don't think the 996TT is uneffected as it is a different engine to the 996 Carrera (Actually based on GT1 engine)

Gary is correct. Turbo, GT2 and GT3 are all based on a different engine. (The GT1 engine).

I have to agree with this as well as to add that in general the rate of failures in these engines are very very rare relative to the (normal) 996 engines in c2 /c4/ c4s.

But Ive done 20,000 miles in my 996 C4 and haven't had so much as a scratched number plate. (My engine will probably blow, now ive said that) But is it just me or are you lot driving your cars pretty hard from cold starts etc?. I very rarely take mine over 3500revs except when im on the Nurburgring of course. My Cartier Watch states it's waterproof, so I swim with it on every day. 16 months later its full of water and rust and completely knackered and I'm told that these things just happen. Higgy, I know your wife and she drives like a crazed lunatic on those Bracknell back roads, always leaving late to pick the kids up. Im not surprised she blew her engine. She's on 2 wheels on the Met Office roundabout sometimes! And she probably tells you she's a right 'Driving Miss Daisy'. [8D] Why does one RMS on a 20,000 996 C2 start leaking and another doesn't. If the cars are identical then it can only come down to one thing....YOU!! Hope i'm not going to be barred from the forum for saying that Just IMOHO Si

SIMON " I very rarely take mine over 3500revs except when im on the Nurburgring of course." [ ][ ][ ]

I've got the video clip to disprove it aswell!!!!

Firstly mine is a tip and i hardly use the buttons. Secondly i am so obsessed about the oil teperature (waiting for it to reach a suitable temp) that on one occassion i was almost pulled over by the police who asked if there was any problem with my car on the motorway. Belive me I have analysed myself (got one of my psychiatrist friends involved) long and hard if the cause of my engine failure is in some way my fault but so far cant think of a thing i did wrong! The eveidence from the engine examination also confirms the fact that the engine has not been abused in any way. Good theory [ ]

I was at my OPC yesterday (windscreen washer failed) and one of the service centre managers told me that they can tell when a car has been thrashed or raced. He talked about 'exceptions' being read from the cars on board computer. So if you blow the engine by changing from 5th to 2nd at high speed, or just generally thrash it, bear in mind that an engineer can download that info and print it out. Due to this discussion, I've just extended my warranty. Its expensive, but better safe than sorry.

Having had a chat with a friend of mine that runs a specialist, he reckons that Porsche Nottingham are currently dealing with about 12 engine failures per month!! Just to top it off, he bought a replacement engine to put in a customers car following a terminal failure and guess what, the replacement lasted 30 seconds! He'd turned it over on the key to prime the oil system without firing it up, connected the ignition system and started it. Apparently it sounded a little rough so they stopped it and did a series of checks, started it again, still sounding a little rough, lightly blipped the throttle and BANG!! He's now having problems trying to get a replacement, Porsche are claiming it was badly fitted or run without oil!! And that's how they treat a specialist who they've been supplying for 12 years!

Hi Will, I did invite you on our Gumball Rally last month (Nurburgring) but you were busy driving down to Spain in an SLK! Whilst on the track I managed to hit about 4000rpm for the first time ever, before allowing the SLR and Enzo past me. But i did a full oil and filter change (as Stephen Mummery quite rightly stated every 5000miles) when I got back to UK, hence I have a perfectly intact engine without the RMS, Warranty, Legal crap that many currently have. Just follow me and drive carefully everyone.[ ][ ] Phil, Your video camera at Brands was set to Fast mode. I was actually doing about 55mph around the track.[ ]

I have to correct you Simon, I was taking an SL not a SLK through France and Spain to Costa del Crime. I'd much rather of been driving a Porker although 1500 miles with the roof down was great even in the Merc. You were a bit slow behind me on the way to Brands Festival actually no wonder your RMS has held out.[8D] Seriously though this is a design/engineering fault not a driver issue.

The topic of over reving and how it is recorded is well covered on the GT3 forum. In fact, it is pretty hard to over rev except by down shifting (or wrong shifting) since the rev limiter will cut in.

Yeah, Nic said it all. The engine on the 996 is rev limited at 7300rpm so if it blows up through over reving then there's a fault in the design or manufacture and not in the driving. Similarly, your OPC can check with PST2 if you have stage 2 over reved the transmission unit by changing down instead of up at high revs. These cars are made for the track which means you are supposed to boot the hell out of them and that's exactly what Porsche drivers have been doing for years. Unless you really are a dumb driver and can't change gears correctly (overstressing engine, gearbox or clutch) then your engine should last 150,000 miles+ so long as you change the oil and service it at intervals. It should have absolute no effect on the RMS and that includes even if you do stage 2 over rev it. The RMS is just a bearing protector and nothing else. It stops oil leaking out and prevents muck getting in the main bearing. The crank can turn as fast as it wants till it snaps but the RMS should still stay in tact.

Wow...Berny you are my hero....and ive been driving mine like a Yaris for 6 months! Schumacher watch out![ ]

Having said all that...... I am on my 6th RMS. I need a new engine according to my OPC (but my independent said that is total BS). and my gearbox is shot. and believe it or not I drive it like a Yaris too! Go figure [ ]

It is disappointing and very worrying to read such threads as this. If my engine blew I would be distraught. I thought the problems on 996 engines were restricted to the early 3.4's? Fortunately my RS is a completely different unit. If it can win Le Mans then I should be OK. What we need are some facts. Remember that the 996/Boxster has sold in far greater numbers than any previous 911, so there are bound to be more failures. Armed with total sales compared to amount of failures the reliability or otherwise of these engines can be evalued. Of course if you are one of the unfortunate ones to have had an engine blow up then no amount of evaluation is going to make you feel better! I have to say that the seemingly poor customer relations exhibited by the OPCs are making a bad situation much worse.

Here's a laugh for you, I am in Chicago at the moment on business. The morining I left last week I received an invoice from my OPC for the seal they replaced. £11. As you all know this is my 6th RMS replacement, they didn't charge for the RMS replacement itself but decided to charge me for the part...the seal. Well, yesterday at about 3:00am, my hotel phone rang and it was Mann Island in Liverpool. They had chased me up, rang the US and wanted to find out when I will pay the £11! Can you believe the gall of them. Have they gone absolutely mad? You also all know that they have reccommended that I need a replacement engine to fix my RMS problems but they want to charge me £4000+ for it including good will. Of course I have refused this. As I see it, I took my car into Mann Island to have the 1st RMS fixed over a year ago and since then its been back in 5 times to have it replaced again FOC because persists to leak. So they now decided it needs a new engine and that I should pay for it. But as far as I am concerned they should have diagnosed this at the first RMS replacement when the car had just (4 mths) come out of warranty. I still believe that Porsche should replace the engine at "their" cost as without doubt it is due to a manufacturing fault. Anyway, when I get back home, I will be taking my car back to them again as guess what.....the 6th seal is already leaking at only 60 miles since it was replaced a few weeks back. As far as I am concerned they still have not rectified this problem and I will keep taking it back to them until they rectify it for good. Recall, I did pay £237 for the 1st seal so since it's still faulty, the repair has never been done properly....even though I payed for that repair. For sure PUK and the OPCs don't give a toss about us customers. My nightmare experiences are living proof of that. Nic, when do you think you will be ready to publish the results of the 996 survey? Cheers,

they rang you in Chicago for £11 !!!!! that you can almost laugh about but the 6th seal going after 60 miles what the hell is going on [ ] [ ] I bet you're tempted to stay where you are sorry to hear the latest from this sorry tale Andrew

Yes, unbeleivable isn't it. On both accounts: they rang me here in Chicago to chase up £11 and the fr**gin seal went again. 7th RMS next up.

Berny, How about this, get a Porsche warranty - pay the £200 for the pre-warranty inspection, they will diagnose leaky RMS - pay for this to be fixed, £500, pay for the warranty - £750 and then 60 miles later take it back when it (inevitably) leaks again and ask for a full engine replacement. They probably won't allow you to take out the warranty knowing the history of your car, but it might be worth a try just to see how they react [ ]

I'm just stunned... "Let's wake our customer up at 3AM to chase a bill..."[ ]

Mark, I know. I could not beleive it. Apparently they rung home and my wife answered. They said they had something important to speak to me about and so because it was Porsche ringing my wife naturally gave them my number as she thought it may be good news or something. She didn't bank on them ringing me at 3:00am here in Chicago. All this for £11. Incredible. All that massive profit they are making too. What planet are they on! GreigM, this whole affair started out back in Oct/Nov last year when I took my car in for its 36,000 mile service at 30,000 miles. Yes it was early but I have always had it serviced anually regardless. But only 4 months earlier it had just had its 24,000 mile major service. Anyway, I took it in early because my warranty had just run out and I wanted to get on the extended warranty scheme and so put it in for the inspection. That was the first time the RMS problem appeared. Plus they told me the gearbox was whining. If the car was 4 months younger I would have had both these things done under warranty but because it was out of warranty they just fixed the seal on good-will (I had to pay £237) and told me to consider replacing the gearbox. At that time it was no big deal. It was just a case of, well OK then fix the seal and I will get the extended warranty. But then they said they would not give me the ext-warranty unless i replace the gearbox. Don't forget this was just a few mionths outside of its warranty period. So I then started in communication with Reading over a good-will claim on the gearbox. This tooks some months and in between this time the RMS was replaced again. When they finally came up with a figure of £3,300 that I had to pay towards a new gearbox the seal was gone yet again (3rd time). I wasn't happy about having to pay this ammount for a new gearbox on a car that had just cloked 30,000 miles but they backed me up against a wall as without it fixed I don't get the ext-warranty. So I wrote a letter to Germany. Never ever did get a reply to date. Then I started voicing my problems on the Forums. Finally I am at the stage where I am now. But now my car not only needs a new gearbox, it needs a new engine too! And they are asking me to contribute over £4000 towards that....plus fitting etc, I am looking at 10 Grand!!! They said they won't fix any more RMSs unless I replace the engine! And all this is because the problems were not diagnosed at 24,000 miles when it had its major service and when it was still in warranty. At 30,000 miles my problems began and they have streched it out over a year. I am now in 40,000 miles and the car is laid up. The worst part about this is that my independent said that my RMS problem is something I could just live with as most 996 owners have the problem and just live with it. And it goes in to them on Dec 1 for a gearbox rebuild.....hopefully at about £1000.....if they can salvage bits from a bunch of other broken gearboxes the have out back. If all goes well my car will be back to normal for Xmas (ie gearbox fine and live with the reoccuring RMS problem). The car itself drives wonderfully. Never misses a gear and doesn't seem to use up any oil despite the RMS problem. In fact the engine purrs beautifully. But the customer service experience I have had with PUK, my OPC and no response with Germany, together with this latent manufacturing fault which they won't acknowledge and the nightmare bills I have had through bad engineering will definitely mean this will be my 3rd and very last Porsche ever. I haven't a clue what car I will get next but will have to see. Dr. Ferry Porsche, I am certain will be turning in his grave at what I have had to go through with this car and the company. And in general, PUK are pathetic and unsympathetic to any of its out of warranty customers. As for the extended warranty, I have given this some thought based on my experience. I feel certain that while they have said (recently) they will replace the RMS under the ext warranty scheme, if it becomes a repeat RMS problem like mine, I am certain they will not ever entertain a replacement engine with out at least a 50% contribution towards it. They will string you out as long as they can with this attitude in the hope that you sell the car and pas the problem on to someone else who will just do the same. You have to understand that PUK has no relationship with the OPCs other than them being franchises. So the OPC has to fight its own financial issues between the customer and PUK. PUK have no intention of offereing more than 50% on a good will claim for out of warranty cars so the customer ends up with the remainder of the bill. For warranty claims the OPC is entirely responsible for the repair cost. Including parts. So you can see that this is the reason that none of us in the UK get replacement engines FOC for repat RMS problem engines. In the US it's different. PNA are more sympathetic towards their OPCs who are in turn more sympathetic with its customers who in turn are protected by laws such as lemon laws etc. Also, PNA offer 4 year warranty for these same cars that we get only 2 years from PUK. So PNA are only just starting to see out of warranty claims on these cars but even these are getting new engines for repeat RMS problem cars. In summary, the car is manufactured with a latent flaw. That flaw lies within the engine. As UK oweners we will have to live with the problem......in or out of warranty. Iv'e said this before, if my car was bought in the US it would have had all its problems sorted by now under the 4 year warranty. We don't have a chance here in the UK. Period.

Hi Berny sorry to hear you are making little progress, many of us owners of older 911s are shocked at the current crop of engine failures and it doesn't bode well for upholding the reliability that the 70s cars started and the 80s/90s 911s firmly established (with a few issues that were acknowledged and generally fixed). It would be a shame to give up Porsche motoring altogether because of the poor attitude of the current Porsche management and franchises, have you considered buying an earlier car and treating it as a hobby and then drive something else day to day? I certainly get tremendous fun and pride of ownership out of my old SC, it's a blast every time I drive it. Insurance this next year will be £267.00 on an agreed value of £15,000, maintenance is retatively cheap, the most expensive things have been bodywork and mods I have chosen to make to it.

Hey Bones, you know you just may have something there. I have owned a 912 Targa and a 964 in the past. I was considering a 964 again maybe and live with the independents. It's very likely I will go with that idea. If I get my 996 Cab fixed up I could probably sell it and be able to buy a 964 and say an Audi as a daily. To be honest I am all mixed up with my affair with this Porsche financially and emotionally but I still ove the car. I will have to see how things pan out over the next few months, I will then make decisions. But never again would I give Porsche the satisfaction of my hard earned cash. The company isn't the Porsche we all remember. I guess it had to happen. It's just a pitty that their attitude towards customers as a company not necessarily their cars are failing them. In time this will be the end of them unless they change soon. If the 997 has similar reliability and/or manufacturing flaws as the 996 and Bosster they are doomed. Only time will tell.

Hey Berny, apologies if you have already answered this somewhere, but could you remind me what the symptoms are of an RMS failure? You mention that yours is running well and using no oil, so I wondered how the problem manifested itself. Mine is using a little oil, and the clutch will slip slightly under (extreme) provocation, but there is a noticeable smell of "clutch" after long journeys, so it may be slipping more than I realise. Other than that, it runs really well and I love it.... Steve 996 C4S

Being an owner of an older Porsche that in my first 13 months of Porsche Ownership has been nothing short of great both the car and the service received from independents ( mainly Hartech ) I read the many RMS/Engine problems and the continuing theme of appalling service from the OPC's with a real degree of sadness that people who are parting with there hard earned cash to buy a top marque sportscar with such reputed quality as a Boxster/996 should not only have to put up with repeated problems but its the real lack of customer service from PUK/OPC that must be disheartning. The days of Porsche's being bulletproof seems IMO to be coming to an end - my pride and joy which is not to everybodys cup of tea has just clicked over 134,000 miles today and I have no doubt will roll on past 200,000 with tender loving care [ ] . Maybe it is only a small percentage having real problems with there cars but the real shame is people are and will fall out of favour with the brand that so many of us grew up wanting to own - I hope the day doesnt come where I long for a Nissan/Suzuki again, and I really hope that the people battling for the right result continue and that the people at the very very top of Porsche dont forget its roots and what makes them its profits.

Hi Steve, Typically the RMS leaks only about one or two drips of oil the size of a small coin onto the garage floor a month. Some don't see drips of oil just a sweating of oil around the base of the bell housing where the gearbox meets the engine. The oil leak is dead center. Oil dripping from anywhere else is not the RMS. Also you should be aware that there is another seal that can leak called the IMS (intermediate seal). This is just below the RMS. The RMS is the seal around the crank shaft you can see it in the large circle cebter of the picture (dimples around it). The IMS is the little seal below it. They both can leak but the main problematic one is the RMS. As I said I rarely have to top up my oil and if I do it is by a very small ammount which is normal for a car even without RMS problems. Regarding the clutch: it should "never" slip while you are cruising/driving. Only when you try to select a gear and typically when your are at a stop and starting off in 1st. If you get a slip at low revs then its a shure sign the clutch has gone west. If you get it at very high revs then this is very possible due to bad driving technique. You will know the smell of clutch burning. The smell you are getting is probably brake pads. BTW, my clutch is the same one at 41,000 miles on my 996 and the last time I saw it (4 weeks ago) it looked very healthy. Hope this helps. Cheers,

Steve, C4's are a lot harder on their clutches than C2's like Berny's. Worth getting it checked out. The RMS would I think, be changed as part of the 'clutch out' execise...... RMS??? Who cares about a penny sized smear on your garage floor??? Unless it pours out the bottom as you pour it in the top I'd leave it[ ]

First off I appologise for missing the pic out. Attached it now. Tim, no way should the RMS be changed as a matter of course when the clutch is changed. Disturbing a none-leaking RMS is asking for trouble. If it don't leak leave it alone. The other thing is that a penny sized oil leak may mean you need a new engine as the crank could be bent, the crank bore whole could be ovaled or the block casing could be misaligned. Many people just leave the RMS and ignore the little oil leak. But they could be looking at trouble in the future......

Damn it...... I forgot the pic again. Steve here ya go.

Thanks guys, Overall I think I don't have too much to worry about, but as I am still under warranty for another 3 months I think I'll get it looked at to be safe. Berny, you're right that it may well be brakes I can smell - I'm not quite sure of the difference between the two (although sometimes I think the smell might be coming from the passenger seat...) Steve 996 C4S

Berny, I do not see an oil leak in that picture. Are you sure there is oil in the engine?[ ] In that picture the intermediate shaft flange has been removed. The flange has an oil seal on it and is a leak source, as are the 3 bolts for the flange. In my picture the old style flange is on the left and the new style on the right. The old style had a simple black O-ring oil seal. The new style is orange/red and has 3 ribs. The new style seal will not fit on an old style flange as the seal is wider. So if you have a car with the old style flange and the seal leaks, then they install the new style flange and seal.

You're up early Tool Pants! Have you seen the RMS thread in the Boxster section? - (Although you've already contributed to it - but you might not know it!) [8D]

I saw it when it first started. I told Berny about the Boxster survey on a US 996 board and that is how he found the PCGB board. Nothing new in the Boxster RMS thread. I have been Boxstering for almost 6 years and the RMS issue was old news when I started. And every year over the years somone will say their Porsche dealer claimed the issue has been fixed, or there is some new super duper seal that just came out. But when you ask for the part number it is the same seal that has been in production for over 4 years. Kills bugs fast is more like gets old fast. I can't wait until I get the parts list for the 987 to see if there is a new style seal. My mechanic friend at my local dealer went to 997 training a few months ago and said the 997 engine had what looked like a Cayenne oil seal. I then checked the 997 and Cayenne parts list, and he is correct. Will be interesting to see if there is similar change to the 987.

Jeff, there is also a new RMS seal that has apparently only become available in the last two months or so. My OPC fitted this at my last RMS fitting....alas it still leaked but strangely it has stopped leaking all of a sudden. Weird! The new seal has some ribs on it like the IMS flange. It also has a built in spring which apparently tensions as the engine load demands. Same part number though. Well, this morning I took my baby down to my independant Tech9 to have the gearbox ripped out and inspected in the hope they can fix it by stealing the bits it requires from a stack of other broken gearboxes they have. If they don't have the part then I will be up for a replacement. Fingers crossed. Tech9 are an incredible bunch of talented guys. I trust them implicitly from work on this and my previous Porkers. One thing of interest is that only last night I found this website: http://www.am-tc.be/porsche.shtml I emailed them and got a reply immediatly. They charge £1900 for an exchange gearbox with 2 year warranty including delivery and pick up of your old gearbox. If the replacement fails in warranty they will pick up the tab for pickup/delivery of a replacement. Tech9 charge about £300 to retrofit a gearbox. So it's not a bad deal. Oh and while at Tech9, they were carting away yet another blown 996 engine. Alan said it's a common sight!!! The bad news is that my wife was with me when he told me this. She has now gone into "sell the bloody thing Berny" mode. But then how do you sell a Porsche 996 with a knackered engine and gearbox. Alan said I should never ever have sold my 964......my wife said I should never have got into Porsche in the first place.....I don't think she will allow me to even go back to a 964 either! Woe is me [ ]

I am not buying the new seal story until I see it with my own eyes or it has a different part number. The seal that came out in 2000 and as far as I know is the only seal available has a spring. Plus, Porsche would change the part number. But I will check it out since I work near our dealer. That is an interesting link for the transmission. What language is it so I can use a translator. I have never liked the fact Porsche does not sell internal parts for the 6 speed, but force you to buy a new or rebuilt. There is a guy on rennlist who had a bad bearing, but he could not buy the part from Porsche. He found the company that made the bearing but the company would not sell it to him because Porsche had pre purchased all the bearings. I heard Porsche did something like this with Michelin for the 997. In the US we like to buy tires from the TireRack as they are just a few dollars above cost. To get a 997 Mitchelin tire from TireRack they ask for your VIN and if it is on a list they cannot sell it to you. You are told you have to buy the tire from Porsche for 3 times the price. It is said that Porsche has some kind of exclusive deal with Mitchelin. At my dealer the bad engines are put in a box and put in an area that the customers cannot see. I have been back there because I know the parts guy - next time I will bring my camera. Then they are sent back to Germany to find out what went wrong so improvements can be made. The M96 motor went into production in 1996 and I guess Porsche still has not figured it out. I think it is just a nice story. I think they really toss them off the boat and into the ocean.

You could have gone down the Italian prancing horse route and spent a shed load more!! Regards, Neil Eldred

Thanks to some serious effort by some of us. I believe that bbc TOP GEAR is doing a slot on the realiablity of Porsche this weekend 5th December. This will be part of a wider exposure. I encourage those of us with genuine problems with either the car or the customer service to write into http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/haveyoursay/index.shtml

This worries the hell out of me - this could destroy residuals for 996s (remember what happened to Lancia in this country). Surely we need to be dealing robustly with Porsche, but keeping it way out of the press

RESIDUALS BE B_________D !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless everyone with a Porsche likely to be affected( or has been affected ) with an RMS problem, is ENTIRELY happy with what Porsche have done about this problem ( as state of affairs I VERY much doubt exists !!), then the very best and most effective thing we can do is to throw, and to continue to throw, the harsh light of adverse publicity at Porsche until such time as they are MADE to remedy this situation to the satisfaction of those who are affected by it. NOTHING ELSE WILL POSSIBLY WORK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you think there are viable alternatives, then you are deluding yourself, and, worse still, by so doing you are also deluding others !!!!!!!! SGLB

Just might be a pyrrhic victory...

I think the damage could already be done - we do need facts and it seem that people are not telling us what % of cars have problems. They was a 996 engine out side the parts department in JCT Leeds on Thursday !!

An engine! - I was at the Wilmslow Porsche Centre today and there are SEVEN engines on pallets outside the parts department! Graham

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I was told the content of the article on top gear but was a little dissapointed when i saw it, I have to say. Well I am told there will be a follow up on the matter. [ ] I also have to say this whole issue is not some witch hunt against Porsche. As I told the guys at my OPC, I will continue to buy Porsches in the future but they really do need to change their attitude towards their customers. This is all the more important for those of us who, unlike me, can not afford the financial cost of litigation nor the cost of a replacement car. I have now been waiting for in excess of 6months while Porsche try to dig themselves out of a hole that they need not have got themselves in. As for the values of our cars, I have never been under any delusion that cars are in any way asserts. For those who have been seduced by the hype, may i suggest a colleague of mine who will be more than happy to prescribe the desired medication...[ ]

Last time I was there a few weeks back I saw 23 of them. Yes I said 23. All on pallets and all blown up. BTW: this subject is now hotting up on rennlist if anyone is interested. Nic, any news on the 996 survey?

Hi there, my first time on the forum but long time Porsche owner and club subscriber. I am writting as I have a very relevent interest on this subject being that my 996 has just suffered engine failure. My 996 is a 2002 (August 20th) 3.6l C2 Cabriolet Manual. It has covered just 28k and has never been tracked or trashed! After failure occured the car was recovered to the closest Porsche Dealer and was later diagnosed with requiring a new engine, due to the failure of a bearing on the intermediary shaft resulting in debree being left throughout the engine. I managed to have an off the record chat with a senior service technican at another OPC who would say no more than 'this is not uncommon on this type of engine'. However this is far more than anyone else will say to me at my local OPC... The manufactures warranty has run out by only some three and a half months but from what I have read on this forum it seems quite unlikely that I can expect it to be covered by a goodwill gesture from Porsche. Like to everyone else they have suggested the bill could be well over 12k!! If anyone else has any information or suggestions as to how I should proceed from this point at this early stage, please let me know. My number for anyone if they wish to call me is 07769 678526 or post a response on this forum. Is engine failure normally limited to early cars i.e. 3.4l or is it apparent with the later 3.6l ones also?? Regards, Daniel.

Hi Daniel, Very sorry to hear about your engine. And I'm sure you will be receiving lots of valuable advice shortly as to how best to deal with the situation. I hope it all turns out ok for you.... Can I ask one question though, which may be helpful to others....did you have an RMS leak at anytime before the engine died or not, as I wanted to know if non RMS leaking engines were prone to death as well. Again, best of luck Daniel.

Daniel, that's terrible news. So sorry to hear this from yet another 996 blowing up. My guess is you will be treated much like myself. I too am a lomg time Porsche owner but it doesn't seem to hold well with Porsche UK. What I would do next is to contact Reading directly, bypassing your OPC. I would write them a letter (have it signed for). Explain your history and predicament and beg that they consider replacing the engine free of charge due it it being a low mileage and young car and it has been fully serviced by the dealership (I presume that is the case). Explain to them that you are a PCGB member and that you are aware of several other member's car's engines failing. Explain to them how concerned you are about this. My bet is that they "will" offer you a 50% good-will offer but I am yet to learn of anyone getting a new engine free outside of warranty. Porsche have two prolems: The mechanical reliability of these engines/gearboxes and their attitude towards their loyal customers when it comes to things like this. They are biting the hand that feeds them. Best of luck with it my friend. Cheers,

Rodney, Re RMS: It's not clear if the RMS leads to engine failure. I guess only Porsche could tell us that. If the Rear Main Crankshaft Bearing (the bearing that the Rear Main Seal protects) should fail then that could lead to engine grenading. In most cases the seal fails because temperature changes in the alloy block cause it to warp (especialy when the engine is cooling) or the two halfs of the engine block (held together with bolts) become misaligned. If the block warps by even a thou of an inch the crank bore ovals and so the seal leaks. IMHO, every 996 engine will suffer an RMS problem in the life of the car. It's a latent defect that is imminent. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when it will fail. As these cars age we will see this problem more and more.

Hi all again, I have just had a further thought as to my scenario. Surely the problem being described by my OPC that has occured must be an inherent manufacturing fault? Being that a non servicable item on a car just over 2 yrs old has completely failed cannot be due to miss use (it is'nt) or bad luck?? If so this issue could be a time bomb waiting to go off on all cars equipped with the same internall bearing??? How on earth could Porsche say that this is not something they are liable to rectify? (Although im sure they will!) Im not trying to give other owners sleepless nights but it could be an issue. I welcome any replys... Dan

In response to the RMS question it was changed in August under warranty...

There's the fighting spirit we want to see Daniel You hit the nail right on the head. We all agree that this is a manufacturing defect sitting latent. It is indeed a time bomb. I have said this before, "The Porsche Experience" is one of getting in my car sh*tting my pants that it wont blow up. But the reality of it is that PAG and/or PUK will "not" acknowledge this problem. If you speak to them you will be amazed at how little they care. In fact they will be glaoting in the fact that you will have to purchase another engine from them! It's the perfect sale.....until one day nobody wants to buy them anymore.

Scouser, As you are one of the biggest contributers to the RMS threads, I would very much like your understanding of the issue. I was under the impression that the RMS tended to leak either because 1) The cradle was misaligned with respect to the crankshaft on some engines and hence the rotation was oval rather than perfectly round, hence the seal leaked, or 2) Misaligned Getrag driveshafts (your post 28/9/2004). You also posted I am asking because I am looking to buy a 996 in the near future. I assumed that an RMS leak was a sign of possible impending doom for the engine, because it could have arisen due to a misaligned crank or a dodgy gearbox (those are the two main theories so far suggested, as far as I am aware)...so as long as I stayed clear of those I would be ok. In your last post you suggested that If that's the case, then an RMS leak would not be a very good predictor of future engine problems, and I'm going to be very worried about buying any 996. What makes you think that most 996's/986's will suffer from RMS failures due to the heating cooling reason given? I mean, if that was the case, there would be a direct trend between the mileage of cars and cars with RMS leaks. The more miles (more time for heating and cooling to take effect) the more chance of an RMS leak. I have read in other posts that cars that haven't had a leak and have covered 50k or more, should be safe....and in my car's case that seems to be true (so far!). There seems to be quite a few cases of cars that have RMS leaks when only just out of guarantee and with low mileage. So what makes you so sure that its just a matter of time for an RMS leak to appear, and that in most cases the leak is due to the heating cooling effect? Thanks for your views in advance......from a now worried prospective buyer!

Rodney my opinions are likely to be extremely biased and negative because of the problems and treatment I have had with my 996 so take what I have to say here as either good or bad information. I will leave with you to decide. I think there is no kidding around with the RMS issue. Go seek every Porsche Forum on the ethernet and you will see that it's the most talked about subject in regards to this marque. The RMS is a problem. I don't think I need to convince you or anyone else on that matter. As for what it means. Well all cars have their share of RMS leaks. But in the 986 and 996 its is too common and especially for a car of this price. It is, after all, supposed to be the epitome of German engineering quality. The name Porsche exudes the meaning of quality and that's what we have come to expect when purchase these exotic cars. Many say that the RMS leak is nothing to worry about and you should just live with it. Other's say its a serious problem as it can lead to future nightmares. All I can tell you is what I have learned after 5 RMS replacements and a knackered gearbox (which I hope to have fixed in January at my own expense). The crankshaft has 7 bearings although all but the Front Main Bearing and Rear Main Bearing are shell bearings. The other two are encapsulated bearings that fit onto each end of the shaft. The seal we talk about so much is called the Rear Main Seal. It sits on the end facing the gearbox. There is a FMS (Front Main Seal) that is on the front of the crank and also an IMS Intermediate seal which is attached to the intermediate shaft at the gearbox end. The purpose of a seal is two fold: a) to keep the oil from seeping out of the engine and b) to prevent dirt entering into it (in the case of RMS vis clutch dust). If the RMS fails completely then there will be considerable ammounts of oil leaking and probably clutch/flywheel contamination. If it fails partially, then it will seep oil out to the bell housing. Over time this can build up and be swished onto the clutch mechanism (one guy on rennlist has just reported this exact problem happened to his 996). If the Main bearing is contaminated it may lead to its detruction as the contamination wears at the bearing mechanism. If the main bearing fails then the engine will have serious problems. If the bearing has play and the crank has a wobble (even by a thou of an inch) it may lead to gearbox and/or engine problems. Conversly, if the gearbox has a problem or is not splined into the clutch mechanism correctly (aligned) then it can cause excessive load on the crankshaft and thus lead to Main bearing and/or RMS problems. It's is also possible for the engine block to warp or the two block halves to become missailigned due to temperature changes (cooling) or incorrectly tightened bolts. Porsche has released a new set of "blue" bolts and there have been several changes in the RMS seal (I think 4). Regarding engine damage: The fact that Porsche have produced several TSBs and different parts (bolts, seals, bearings and even engine block) is evidence that there is likely long term damage imminent. Consider also that Porsche often replace engines (especially in the US and for ROW warranty cars) for repeat RMS offending engines. This is evidence that there is reason to be worried. Why would they go to such drastic measures if it was nothing to be concerned about. Regarding is it worth the risk: Well the cost of an RMS eplacement is at least 6 hours labour and possibly a clutch and flywheel. A flywheel is about £400 and a clutch about £250. You can get an RMS replaced at an independent for as little as £270 but then you will forfeit any claim with Porsche in the future if you should need it. If your car is within warranty then you are covered. But out of warranty and you are in my situation... with not much of a leg to stand on. If you sell the car and you pass on the problems then you may be liable for the repair costs by the new owner. In any case residuals of this car are falling rapidly because of the RMS and engine problems. If you're rich and can sustain the cost of running these cars with this knowledge then it is worth the risk. Regarding engines blowing up: From what I have seen most of these have been cylinder lining issues. The 996 engine uses cylinder sleeves. These sleeves are made from highly porous materia (25% silicon, 75% air) which is cast into the crankcase cyinder bores. At casting time, the air escapes leaving only the silicon in the cylinder lining but this is known to breakdown due to condensation buildup in the cylinder bores which lead to the sleeves turning to paste. The resulting play in the cylinder bore causes the engine piston to shake and collapse. The debris spread throught the engine causes catastophic engine failure. The only answer is a replacement engine. Of course if a bearing or bearing shell should fail then the same problem occurs. Regarding Porsche's attitude: Well they are, after all, a public corporate buisness with a sole aim to satisfy its shareholders. They are not in the business of doing anyone any favours. Saying that, I have to be fair and say that PUK do "normally" offer good-will on a car that is 5 years old or younger. But after that your on your own. The main issue is that so many 996 (and Boxster) owners have reprted RMS failures and engines blowing up at low mileage. Much more than the norm. In many cases there are multiple RMS failures reported as in my case. But Porsche refuse to acknowledge the problem. Furthermore, it is clearly a manufacturing fault or defect in manufacturing process. If it wasn't then they would not have come out with new types of parts in an effort to fix the problem and it would not be so common. It also would not show up until the car has done considerable mileage but the RMS has been known to fail on the showroom floor in a car with delivery miles. The fact that it's a manufacturing defect means they have sold their goods without them being fit for their purpose and as a result they have breached the Sale of Goods Act of 1994. Then there is another question, why is that we don't have FMS failures reported? It seems the main issue is only the RMS or IMS but mostly the former. In any case it's at the gearbox or torque end of the engine. So it is feasible that the gearbox could be the cause or at least the area where the transfer of power to it is affected. You also have to take into account the service history of the car. If it's been maintained correcty by the Porsche dealership using Porsche approved parts and procedures then there should be no reason that the mechanics of the car should fail in this manner. Especially in an engine of this calibre and at such low mileage as is seen so often vis my car's 1st RMS was at 27,000 miles....and so ws the gearbox. Finally you also have to take into consideration the survey's that PCGB are conducting. The Boxster survey already shows clearly that the RMS failure is all too common. I feel certain the 996 survey will say same. I am particularly interested also in the rate of engine failures in the 996 and its relation to the RMS. But we will have to wait and see the outcome. So, in summary, they are "the" best car to drive. But take it from me, they are mechanically flawed and unless you have warranty, you better have a very big slush fund. Hope this helps.

Whilst I have now parted with my 996, I cannot remain aloof from all of the problems of RMS, because I gave the car to " 'Er Indoors" to keep her sweet on my DB9 purchase. This means, of course, that any possible RMS failure in her car will now have to be paid for by her out of her earnings( immoral or otherwise) and that this will inevitably impact on me ! With this in mind, can I please ask if, after all this time, is the Club still without a focus, committe or nominee established for the purpose of dealing with RMS issues ? It certainly seems that way to me ( but then don't bother reading the magazine ) SGLB

Some titbits... These are taken from various recent postings on other Porsche Forums regarding RMS. All these are from individual posters and are USA based: "...my local dealer told me that if a particular car experiences the RMS problem three times, they have authorization to replace the engine because Porsche has not provided them with the tools needed to machine/modify/whatever the crankcase at the seal surfaces." "My clutch was replaced on my last car, the 2002 996 due to the RMS problem." "My '04 C4S Cab began showing a few signs of oil about a month ago (took delivery May '04). Small spot in same location, about the size of a quarter." "Mine too Guys, i have an 04 with 21,000 kms ( approx 14,000 miles), dealer will be changing mine today. along with a clutch..................It really is too bad that Porsche is more concerned with profit then customer service................I mean this really does put a bad taste in my mouth, Way to go Porsche!, I do hope that Brand Name means something to those guys because I WILL NOT get another one." "The "new" engine having an RMS leak at 9K miles worries me much more than the original going at 29K, as it clearly indicates things hadn't all been sorted out by February when the new engine went in. As long as Porsche keeps paying for the repairs and providing a decent loaner for the days they have the car, I'm not too upset, but if I start having to pay I'll certainly be very unhappy." And one "un-named" 996 owner is "the" ultimate Porsche fan. In the true American fashion, this person even went to the trouble of tattooing the Porsche emblem to an arm and then had black tears (oil drips) added every time an RMS was replaced. I could write a book on the stuff that I have collected, read and emailed on this RMS/engine subject. BTW in case you didn't know, I am an author. It could be a serious project.

Steve, I am the Club rep on this issue, why not give me a call (my number is in the Porsche post) if you have not read the many Forum posts or the small mention in November Post. We will shortly be collating the 996 Survey replies received so far, and will send a second, reminder letter out to those who did not reply, so as to achieve a statistically valid result. BUT, Porsche Cars are showing no signs of altering their stated position of treating each case on its merits.

Scouser, Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt the Boxster survey come out as less than 30% failures?

Boxster was 25% failures amongst the 50% who replied The partial result so far of the 996 survey looks similar.

Thanks Nic, And I guess that of the letters sent out, I would assume that disproportionately more RMS 'failed' owners would have replied. So probably bringing the real percentage to around the 20% mark? I am trying to quantify the scale of the problem, especially with regard to RMS leaks and the link to engine/gearbox failures (slipped liners notwithstanding) We all need to know all the facts as best we can. Because, although we need to have a strong case to take to PUK, what happens in the meantime, or if they dont change their stance? I want to know, in reality how worried should any future 996/986 buyer really be?

"How worried should any future 996 owner should be " ? Two words spring to mind. One rhymes with SIT and t'other rhymes with CARED ! SGLB

Dan, We are all sorry to hear your news - catastrophic engine failures should not happen to a car of this 'class' regardless of how it has been driven. Rev limiters prevent engines over revving, except in the case of wrong gear selection - which Porsche can easily establish from the cars black box. In answer to your plea for help I have an alternative suggestion to that of 'joining the ever lengthening queue with Scouser and others' - but only if the car was bought from a Dealer rather than a private sale.

Thanks, Nic, for your response to my concerns about the RMS problem. As it happens, merely to learn that the Club has nominated someone to be a contact point on this issue, goes a long way to calming me.........as does the fact that my 996 now belongs to the Missus ! But, best of all is that ,as far as I can tell, there are no signs of the problem in her car.................well, not yet anyway ! Cheerss, Steve.

Steve, Why say that?Its just not constructive. Do you actually have figures as to % engine/gearbox failures? Is that % any better or worse than Ferrari's or Aston Martin's? I know I'm looking for information that just isnt there...but I dont want to feel like every time I turn the key in the ignition I have to pray it doesnt blow up........when that just isnt true. How many engine failures do you actually know of in the UK....?

Rodney, I know of 6 people who own 996's in the North West alone who have had engines blow up. Here's a pic out the back of my OPC taken recently. See 3 engines ready to be carted off to the scrapper. I asked about these and the engineer said they were all blown up. I have also personally witnessed 23 blown up engines piled up out the back of Stratstones in Wilmslow. Pitty I didn't have my camera with me. Only last week at my Independent Tech9, I saw them drag out another blwon up engine. And that's just my account. They are all 996 engines! Mahen, help me out here....

Note to self: Pray before you turn that key......................

Yes exactly. I do. It's what I call "The Porsche Experience". But it never used to be that way in my 964 or 912.

Steve, I specifically asked for member who have had engine failures to contact me, and so far, not so many have, so this has relaxed me a little on this point. of course, for those affected, it is a large issue. I will be following this point up in the 996 survey. My clear advice to everyone is to take out the Porsche extended warranty. This then covers both RMS and engine failures plus emergency cover. though if you are already, affected, you have to rectify all problems before the cover will be offered. If you have a problem, there are clear steps to be taken with Porsche Cars, but they have a very structured response based it seem, on the history of the car and owner and reward customer loyalty (to Porsche Cars GB). There are several cases where goodwill payments are made to cars outside the warranty, so always worth applying. I will never stop pushing Porsche to take better care of its customers and also to extend the standard warranty to 4 years, as in the US. Just so you know, I had an RMS replaced on my second Boxster S at trade in time, I didn't even think to ask for a goodwill payment. On my current one, I have just had the second RMS replaced under warranty. Generally speaking, the RMS is a small problem, that has to be rectified at some point, and will cost between £300 and £700. For the few cases which re-occur, it is more serious and Porsche should grip these better. just to remind you, on my '73 RS .7, I had to rebuild the engine and gear box twice at enormous (at the time) expense, though I was using it for Club racing. Dont tell me that all Porsches used to be bullet proof.

But presumably here you're referring to RMS failures, which have an unclear relationship to engine failure. I'm not too worried about a few drops of oil on the drive, so how many engine failures is the survey showing, your later post seems to imply very few?

Hi Rodney, You query as to why I have suggested that 996/Boxster owners should be very worried about RMS failure, Moreover, you go on to state that my comment iwas not constructive. Please let me respond by saying that, for a 996 owner whose car has NOT been affected by RMS problems, I have previously been quite constructive, even giving my phone number ( I am a commercial lawyer, not without extensive knowledge of issues such as this ) out on this website for owners whose cars had failed and who specifically asked that they could ring me for advice- NOBODY did !!! Despite this, barely a day passes without yet another slew of mails on this subject being submitted by very worried Porsche owners, and, to my eyes, at least, very little positive action seemed to have been taken, although I may be wrong about that, since I don't even open the Club magazine, let alone read it (which begs the question- are those that do read it happy with whatever action IS being taken ? ) You ask about Ferrari and Astons having similar failures. I am not quite sure that, given the production figures of these cars (never mind about their unit cost ),one can make any sort of comparison, but let me just say that, as a longstanding member of the Ferrari club and a newly joined member of the Aston bunch, nobody in either clubs has ever spoken to me of either any Ferraris or Astons ever suffering similar problems i.e. such a seemingly widespread, serious, virtually chronic failure of an important component in a major area within two of the most popular and desirable cars of a manufacturer's range ! And yet, this is just what we appear to be suffering from with our Porsches, a manufacturer whose cars were previously a byeword for reliability, longevity and engineering excellence ! In closing, let me say to you that I have idea how many bloody engines have failed within the UK (or anywhere else, for that matter ! ), but isn't that really the point ? We don't know this, and we don't know that, but we do know is that there IS a proplem, and that Porsche appear to be doing f--k all about it ! And if that doen't make you s--t scared, then nowt will ! Ciao, Steve

Steve, I am not disagreeing with the fact that there is a problem and PUK are doing nothing about it,and that their attitude thus fur has been disgraceful, I have stated that before. Your earlier comment - giving the impression that we're all doomed to face failed RMSs/exploding engines/gearboxes and that its just a matter of time - was not very helpful. I just want to try and quantify the problem as best I can, so I can make an informed purchasing decision. Scouser, listed the cases he's had experience of, and that made it a lot clearer to me how big the problem really could be. We are all on the same side Steve, and I hope the unlucky members do take you up on your very generous offer to help them.

Looking at the above, one would have to say if you had a RMS problem then you answer the survey and if did not you would ignore it. My limit maths would say it looks like about 12.5% - 15% cars have had issuse. I undserstand 14K 996 have been sold in the uk so on the above 2100 cars would have a problem with RMS. Then you would look at the engine faliures which may be a small propotion of the 2000 say 15% again - 300 cars. 300 cars from 14k is 2%. Guess who bored at work, It is a bugger if you do not have a warrenty if the engine blows, however you are also very unlucky taking my work out of the above, I can not wait until the real figuares come out

Ian, 4ndas. I have just been reading back through this thread. Any chance you could post these pics for properity [ ]

Berny, I would love to post the pics on the web but they are too large a file size. I have several pic of the pile out the back of stratstone. As for the failures. The problem is that "no one" not even Porsche know which car is going to blow up or have an RMS issue next. This ultimately means that it is possible the next time you turn your key and dive out you many not be coming home in your own car!

Mahen, good one. Any chance you could email them to me and I will resize them. Cheers,

This is true of any car (or bus, train, aeroplane, motorbike). The issue is the liklihood or chance of it happening.

This is a facinating thread. With a lot of conjecture and hot air. Some hard facts would be usefull. Sadly Porsche are'nt going to be letting you all know the real extent of the problem. What bothers me is that the RMS issue is still around in new cars as well as early 996's which suggests that Porsche have yet to cure the problem. I would be curious to know how many 996's out there have a leaky rms and how long they've had it. One would assume that so long as the leak stays at the 5 penny piece stage and does not get worse or start to foul the clutch, that the engine could go on for many thousands of miles and years before requiring attention. By which time other factors including wear and tear may well come into play. Bear in mind that if some of these cars do only 6k a year and the engine goes on for another 20k with a leaky seal that's 3years more use! with regard to 996 build figures remember 14k+ per year since launch!

Thankfully, the likelihood of your 986 or 996 engine expiring next time you turn the key is extremely low. This is not to make light of it in any way, but let us keep this in perspective and not alarm all owners. Our two friends Mahan and Scouser rightfully want to keep this topic in public view but please note, they have NOT been joined by a legion of club members with similar tales. My own email box has less than a dozen examples, but lets wait till the 996 survey has been collated and followed up. re these pictures of the "blown" engines, which disturb me also, I postulate that most are exchanged under warranty and cause the owners not much grief.

Nic, when will the figures be released? Like most, although I haven't had any problems with RMS or total engine failure, I will be interested to see the numbers involved. Gearboxes??????? As to it being "just a matter of time", I think the opposite may be true. If you haven't had a problem, then it appears that the more miles you have done, the less likely it is that you will have one. My friendly independent suggested to me that his experience is that once you get past 30000 problem-free you have got a good one, and once past 50000 it's fairly bullet-proof. The experience he has had of failures to RMS and engine failure have been with cars of 25000 and less. Let's get some numbers before we all need Valium.

Richard, I have just developed and given a wee database program to Sarah at Club Office to enter the 996 responses. Maybe she will have time to enter them this week. I will then publish these interim results and at same time generate a reminder letter to all those that haven't replied, to build up the number to something statistically useful. Note that quick hand count of results so far showed very similar result to the Boxster - I shared this above. We may even re-poll the Boxster owners to see what has happed in the 9 months since the survey. Once we have detailed stats, we can slice and dice them, to see number of reoccurrences, year of occurrence etc. Of course, they will be supplied to Porsche Cars GB to pass on to AG btw Richard, Tips seem to suffer RMS rather less than manuals

Nic Thanks for that. You can probably assume that if they didn't reply they won't have had a problem! Interesting about tips suffering less than manuals. I wonder why that is? As far as I can see on the PET, they use the same crankshaft and seal. Did the Boxster survey show that as well?

Richard, one of the strong theories is that an out of round crankcase hole and loading of the crankshaft is a major cause of RMS failure. Tips have no clutch and a different bellhousing and gearbox.

Nic My intention is never been to "alarm" but when a manufacture of a product has no idea why his product fails other than it does then that would worry me. With all due respect you know as well i do that i have kept most of what i know " out of Public view" due to my insane loyalty to the brand as well as legal reasons. The stats that i have gathered are from the horses mouth (ie Porsche) to coin a phrase. As for the legion, there is an army gathering.

I joined this forum so i could find out more about specific issues regarding the purchase, after a great deal of saving, my long awaited dream car an early 996. That is untill i came accross this thread ! Given the current discussion regarding mechanical failures, can someone please advise the best / safest way forward to purchase one of these cars or do i wait untill there is some sort of final answer from the manufactures on this. I recently discussed this with an indipendant dealer he advised he had not heard of any problems and the warrenty he provided with the car would cover any problem , when i enquired to the claim limit i was told 5k, not enought to cover an engine failure. Your advice would be appriciated. Keith

keith If you want to go down the warranty route PGB provide their own at 750gbp. The cover has no limit (other than the value of the car)but has only been in existance since june/july of this year (when PGB took over the running and the underwriting). I know of one guy who is still awaiting a decision on the degree of cover for his new engine. I wait to see if PGB honour the "complete cover" for a new engine. Other than the above all i will say is that there was a reason for PGB talking over the warranty and it was not based on making a profit from the venture but more to do with protecting the marque

Keith, we are talking of the Porsche Cars GB extended warranty which was upgraded and brought inhouse from June this year. I absolutely recomend everyone (where applicable) to take out this warranty as it will cover major problems till the full cost of the car. also provide get you home cover. If the car is not currently warranted, then it will have to undergo the detailed check by an OPC (and any remedial work) and will have to be serviced normally. With this warranty in place I would have no worries at all about the car. I myself would not trust any third party warranty offering, but you pay your money and make your choice.

Wish I hadn,t read this thread , just bought a very nice low mileage 1999 996 C4 Tiptronic for my wife as a present as she has always wanted a Porsche 911. Daren't tell her what I've read here , to scarey . Fingers crossed we've got a good one . Should I have bought a 993 ????

Nic Still watching and waiting for developments on this subject with crossed fingers hence little input of late. I have said before but will repeat for others new to the forum, I am totally against all forms of 'bolt on warranties' for any product that ought to have a reasonable life expectancy (100k miles plus) - particularly in this case where I (and most others) rightly felt we were buying something of real quality in all respects. That said your advice re the PGB warranty has got to be a must for all 996 986 owners 'till such time that Porsche come up with an answer that works for those afflicted with RMS and premature engine failures etc. Do you know what the extent of the cover in terms of age of cars etc - will they for example provide cover for a car once it has reached say 6 years? Keep up the good work and Merry Christmas.

Berny Have PM'd the pics I have to you. Regards Ian W

I have recently purchased a 996 late 98 model, and have had a few nightmares since reading this thread as well. My car was serviced recently and they informed me that it needs a rear main oil seal and intermidate shaft seal, that is what they put on the estimate. So yes another RMS problem? I had a specialist check out the car before i bought it and there was no mention of a problem, i also tried to speak to the opc it was serviced at, they could not give me information unless i owned the car and at the time i didn't, i wanted to see if anything had come up during the last service the only info they could give me was, it has been well looked after, which with the specialist checking it out sounded pretty good. Now i own the car i have checked out the history on the car and it has been serviced by the same OPC by it's one and only owner from new and on time as it has only done 32.000miles and yes the RMS was mentioned in the last service, so 2 opc saying the same thing and 1 specialist missing it totally. As i like the car and it feels and looks like a good one i want to get the RMS replaced even though there are no leaks on my garage floor but i want to take out a warranty, so simple get it done take out the warranty and enjoy the car. But from going through this forum i am now thinking they could come up with somthing more serious like a new engine or gearbox from checking the history i know that the car has not yet had a rms replacment which may be a good sign or not? I might be being an old women but wanted to hear any opnions as the car is booked in in January and it is really playing on my mind. Thanks Phil

This just in today from a poster on rennlist.... "I had my car in for service on Monday at the dealer and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either." And here are some pics of more knackered 996 engines out the back of Stratstones (care of Ian W. Thanks Ian). And in case anyone is wondering, yes my aim is to scare the living daylouts out of you!

Guys/gals..... if you have had an RMS problem please please consider displaying this image in your signature or avatar. We need to be collectively protesting about this problem. Showing this image in your posts symbolises your support. I have 996/986 owners all over the Internet displaying it but little here. http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclubfailed2.jpg

Phil I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I don't believe there is any relationship between the RMS issue and total engine failure. If you can get the RMS fixed and obtain an OPC warranty then you should be covered against both. I can't understand where this "gearbox" thing has come from. I suspect it is all part of an expanding dialogue that is getting more exaggerated by the day. No doubt there ARE problems, but until we have some reasonably accurate numbers the extent of the problem is speculation. Whatever the situation, the largest part of the problem is that the Porsche organisation in its entirity seem to be denying that it exists, and in some instances are treating customers very poorly. The relentless expansion of this thread isn't really doing that much good at getting to the root of the problem, but is certainly going to reduce the value and saleability of ALL our vehicles. Hopefully the club will be able to gather some useful data, and have sufficient clout to make PGB take notice.

Both my own OPC and a very respected PAG engineer I happen to speak to at the 997 release in Antibes told me that a misaligned gearbox will cause both RMS and gearbox problems. I agree it is hearsay but unless Porsche tell us what the cause is we can only but try to diagnose the cause ourselves. With 5 RMS replaced and a faulty gearbox about to be replaced it seems feasible that this may be the cause. Without doubt it will hit us in the pocket as residuals fall as news gets out of this problem. But in my case, I care not. What more have I got to loose? Gathereing information is one thing. Having the clout is another. I doubt the club has the latter.

Richard I know the engine failure has not been confirmed that it is linked to the RMS, but my concerns were when changing the RMS they apparantly check the crankshaft out for wobbling in the bearings and if it is out this will mean an engine replacment, so in theory that is engine failure, that what was concerning me. £650 seal replacement is one thing but an engine replacement for me to pay for I would not be able to cover. As i said before i think i am over reacting but have gone some to get the car in the first place any more massive costs would make me wish i had kept my Caterham. Phil

Nigel, I have just checked the booklet, the Porsche Cars Approved warranty covers cars up to 10 years old - you can renew up to 9 years

Berny Thanks for that - And another model off my wish list - the DB9 is getting closer[ ]

Nic Many thanks for that - perhaps there will be an effective fix before the 10 years is up - but then again[8|]

Philippe, specialists are rather casual about oil leaks (some just wipe them down), and maybe we should relax a little also. So, your '98 model needs an RMS, what is the issue? The only (few) owners really complaining are those where a new RMS is needed each year, or more often even . Get the full check done preparatory to the approved Warranty, fix whatever needs fixing, take out the warranty, then relax. They are NOT going to tell you to replace your engine or gearbox.

test drove the DB9 a few weeks ago .................awesome !!! RMS ??? not something I can fix in my garage then??[ ] . Oh well I'll worry about it when/if it happens till then we'll enjoy the 996 . After all its Christmas and we havn't had it long .

Funnily enough, one of the magazines (911 & Porsche World maybe) did an article detailing how to do this a couple of months ago...

Nic Thank you for that, that has made me feel better. This would not have concerned me, but i do read into things to much somtimes. I guess the car has done well as it is 6 years old and the first RMS reported, so for a car I am enjoying £650 i can absorbe. I will go for the years warranty and keep an eye on things, and enjoy the car. This may be my last time on here before Christmas so i wish everyone a happy Christmas and a good 2005! Phil

Or 5 RMS replacements in one (1) year! And yes they WILL tell you to replace your engine! They told me that the ONLY fix to my RMS problem is a rebuild or replacement engine and it will cost ME about £5000 and that includes 50% good-will. It is true that many owners just live with the RMS problem as it's perceived to be only a small leak often not even requiring any oil top-up. But the long term effects of this are likely to be catastrophic not to mention that selling a car with an engine oil leak doesn't bode well with its resale value. From all the research I have done on the RMS problem, and it's a lot more than most, this RMS problem is "imminent" in all 996/986 n.a engines. If you don't have it now, you are one of the lucky ones but it "will" bight you in the end. We will see this become more evident as the cars get older. And in regards to engines blowing up, all I can say on that matter is that it frightens the hell out of me. Hearing about this is one thing but visually seeing them piled up outside OPCs is another and then when my own OPC tells me that I require an engine rebuild to fix my RMS problem it becomes even more concerning......to the point of being too pedantic/scared to even fire up the ignition! Nic I am not sure where you are taking this. It seems to me that you are now taking the opinion that the RMS problem isn't serious. Is it that you are getting pressure from the board to drop this or something? Please don't give up on us now. You may be are only hope. As a matter of interest, have you or anyone else on the board thought about contacting PCNA in an effort to fight this together. The weight of both PCNA and PCGB fighting this together would force PAG into a serious position to put an end to this debacle.

Berny, my attitude has not changed, still working and fighting, but keep it in perspective - its all in my posts, and in yours. One RMS after 5 or 6 years is NOT serious! Good suggstion to talk to PCNA, I will do this after I have the 996 survey collated. This is now delayed till after Xmas because poor Sarah is flat out adding new Club members, our life blood

Good one Nic! Seriously, thank you for all your efforts. All the very best for Xmas and New Year.

and you too Berny!

So, is the recommendation for those of us still in warranty to take out the Porsche extended warranty without fail and just accept it's increased the cost of maintaining your car by £750? Bit shell-shocked by all of this coming back to Porsche after a 9 year absence... When you think the manufacturing cost of a marginal engine to Porsche is - what? - £1000, you would think they would be keen to salvage their reputation.

If you can get it, yes. Because my car has had so many RMS problems they won't give me the extd warranty. This is also what is bringing the residual costs down on these cars. Nobody in their right mind wants to buy one out of warranty. There's a RHD 2000 C4 on ebay about to go off at only £26,000 ! Eventually everyone will be able to afford a modern day Porsche and its exclusivity will be lost. Then those that buy them will find out the cost of repairs and the attitide from PUK afterservice and as a result the Porsche name will become mud. To compound this, Porsche is putting more effort to enter the general market place with SUVs and 4 doors. I see a day when Porsche instead of competing with Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc their only competition will be BMW, MB, Volvo and Saab......and even these manufacturers are moving into the supercar market that Porsche seems to be stepping out of. If PAG would inject some of that Billion Euro profit back into its loyal customer base it would maintain its exclusivity. I'm a 3rd time Porsche owner but never again. They're fools unto themselves.

Mark, I do recommend the extended warranty because it isn't so much money to give peace of mind, but so far, I have not taken it out on my Boxster. The adhoc statistics on Boxster/996 engine failures is not alarming UNLESS it happens to you. RMS failure does seem fairly widespread but not a big deal unless you have one of the small number of repeat failures when again, it does become expensive. I agree with Berny that PAG should invest more of its huge profit into increasing customer satisfaction. There is a cycle with older Porsches where the purchase price is realatively low but repair costs are still proportionate to original cost. This is an unpleasant surprise for many a naive new owner. Unfortunately this now seems to be happening earlier in the life cycle of the marque.

I certainly agree with you. I come from recent ownership of a Mercedes SL600, 96, £102k which 8 years on suffered 3 major failures in as many months - gearbox, wiring loom, air bag controller, amounting to nearly half of its heavily depreciated value. So I dumped it for £13k. Truth is, the maintenance costs go up as the car gets older while the value goes down so the proportion of maintenance to value gets to the point where the car becomes uneconomic to maintain. As for these engine failures, if they really are a significant issue across all cars, shouldn't we be rattling Car, Evo, Autocar, Auto Express' cage to investigate?

Only a few months ago I remember filling in the PCGB questionnaire with trepidation, ticking the box 'no problems with RMS.... Car's booked in today at OPC today, '03 C4S with 17k miles, and guess what, the RMS is 'weeping'..... It's under warranty, and they say they'll just replace the RMS (and I'll be renewing the warranty!!!) I thought I'd read (from this forum) that an RMS cannot be changed, and that the engine needs to be replaced, any views? Also, my fear is that once it's had one RMS, this could be a problem 'for life'?

Sorry to hear that Justin. I have said it before and I will say it again. The RMS problem is imminent in all 996 C2/C4 models. It's not if but when it will occur. I would even put a bet on it. The RMS is completly changeable. I am on my 6th and about to go in for its 7th on Monday. I have heard of people who have had one change then no more problems. But then you take people like me on my 6th. It is not uncommon to hear of people on their 4th although I think I am the current record holder (or at least joint with Tool Pant's friend Jean). I don't think that once replaced it's a problem for life. It's more like buy the car and it's a problem for life. Pic details: This person in the US had 4RM'S replaced and celebrates it by putting teardrops beneath a tattoo!

And we can all watch the residuals go down the pan if these mags got their teeth into the story (and blew it even more out of proportion). It would have a knock on for ALL Porsches, and all models of 996 will be tarred with the same brush.

Thanks for that Scouser, that's put my mind at ease a little, but very sory to hear you've had so many - must take the joy away somewhat... I still 'love it' though, and have no plans to change it in the near future - I guess we should consider ourselves 'lucky' compared to having a passion for Ferrari in terms of running costs, oil leaks and the like..

Oh, and great picture by the way[ ]

I didn;t buy this and my last two Porkers for an investment. If I wanted to do that I would have bought a vintage. I bought my 996 for the long term knowing full well that it would depreciate over time. Apart from property it's the most expensive item I have ever bought. But I bought it to give me a lifetime of enjoyment....at least for 150,000 miles. But it's a lifetime of mysery and worry since it was 28,000 miles old. It goes in for its 7th RMS and a new gearbox on Monday at 40,000 miles. It's disgusting. I don't think we should be blackmailed by falling residual values. We just want what we paid for.

Spot on. Your right. I love it. That's why I want to keep it forever. Can't wait to get it back on the open roads again.

Berny, I think you are missing my point. I don't regard my 996 as an investment, and never have. I use it as daily transport, and have no illusion that it will not depreciate in value, but I was hoping this would be at a reasonable rate, as with my 993. What concerns me is that the constant proliferation of these threads is going to make these cars values plummet much faster than they do already. In the worst case they could become virtually unsaleable. My car cost me £32k, a year ago. It would be nice to think that in a couple of years it would realise £18-20k, but if this goes on it will be worth buttons. I know that you have stated in previous posts that you don't give a monkey's, but spare a thought for the rest of us who do.

Richard, I do spare a thought for those that are concerned about residuals but what do you propose we do about the situation? Sit back, grin and bare it? I don;t think so. The only way is to fight it and if that means taking it to the media then so be it. I am not alone here. This RMS issue is reaching epedemic proportions. There are some that say it's blown out of proportion but just scour the Internet Porsche forums to see how many owners are aflicted. The Boxster survey even showed 25% of those that responded have or have had it. It's not odd cases. WHat are we going to do if we find out in the next few years that this RMS problem has had long term damaging effects....engines may be blowing up left right and centre and there's nothing we can do about it because we stayed shtum when we were concerned about voicing our dissatisfaction in fear of dropping residuals. The only answer is to do something about it now. Make it public via the media, preferably Watchdog or the like. We've given Porsche every oportunity to answer our cries but to no avail. They obviosuly don't care and gloat on their Billion Euro profits that mugs like you, me and everyone else funded! Sorry mate but my intentions is to shout as loud as possible until PAG either wake up and do something about it or they get kicked up the 4rse to do it by force. No defeatist attitudes. Think about this way, if after all the bad press Porsche do something about it and the problem goes away, then the residuals will go up. On the other side of things, would you be happy to let some poor sod go out and buy one of these cars knowing that they are heading for financial ruin? I think not. It's not me who is defalting your investment, its Porsche. If your that concerned about your residuals then why don't you write a letter to Porsche and tell them about it. At least I am doing something about it. I repeat, all I want is what I payed for. No less.

Berny, I've just been reading through the Porsche 911 hard-backed brochure published by PAG.... "...are matched by the same remarkable standards of durability found on every generation of 911 engine" "As always, the engine in the new 911 is hand-assembled to the most exacting specifications. Each unit is then subjected to rigorous performance and load testing. If any imperfection is detected in a particular engine - even one that would go unnoticed on the road - the unit is automatically rejected" Do I understand you correctly about the multiple failures being caused by the engine being out of tolerance at the manufacturing stage? So on one hand Porsche trumpet their skills at manufacturing in their advertising literature but in reallity..... This used to be called misrepresentation, didn't it?

Pete, you have it one. Total misrepresentation. Proof: car fully serviced by the Porsche dealership since new. 1st RMS at 28,000 miles, 5th at 40,000 miles. Suggest engine replacement at 40,000 miles, gearbox replaced at 41,000 miles. ......and I have to pay for them both! Where does that fit with "...are matched by the same remarkable standards of durability found on every generation of 911 engine" The part I don't understand is that they know I have had two previous Porsches and they know I am in the market to get another car as mine is getting on a bit. They also know how active and vocale I am in these Forums. Given the problems I have had, wouldn't you think it would be prudent for them to just fix up my car, make a me a happy camper, keep me in the family and best of all shut me up? There's a book with a title that sums things up for me. The content is not related but the title says everything.

RMS problem in the 997: it's official http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=179949

Scouser, I've been following all your posts across the boards on this issue for quite some time now and believe you should be awarded a medal for your endurance and determination. In one of your recent rennlist posts you said "...my current Porsche will be my last one." I can't say I blame you at all and I find this rather sad, as I know how much you obviously cherished your 996. What I'm interested to know is, what will you buy next instead? because whatever it is, it might be OK, 'but it's not a Porsche.'[ ]

Yes that is going to be a very tuff decision. I haven't decided yet. I would love an AMV8 but it's way over my budget at the moment. have owned AM's before and they can be just as troublesome. I am thinking of going back to an older Porsche. I have my eye on a beautiful 930 turbo flatnose cab that is currently owned by one of the Porsche family! The other thing to do is to just sit and wait with this car for a while longer. It's only done 40k and a new gearbox goes in on Monday (I seem to be saying this every week but my OPC have had trouble locating one). If it doesn't hassle me any more I may keep it another year....and wait for the GT3 prices to drop some more [ ] One thing is right though, Porsche is in my blood and that is harder to give up than cigarettes. I dunno, I am mixed up, financially broke and dissapointed fom the experiences with this Porsche. If I find a feasible way out of Porsche I will jump at it.

ORIGINAL: Scouser Thought as much![ ] Now you're talking!

But what's the reliability of a GT3 going to be like? Many will have been worked hard and things like clutches, brakes, tyres will all have taken a beating. The idea of 911s being bullet-proof seems a distant memory. Though to the owner of the G reg 964 C4 parked in Moreton in Marsh this morning, how could you let it get into that state?

Yes, but a GT3 does not use the Boxster/996 engine, but a child of the mighty 962 endurance engine, as does the Turbo. If only Porsche produced a GT3 'Lux', like the good old days (the 911 RS Touring, as opposed to the RS Lightweight, for example). You know, a GT3 with some suspension movement and ground clearance for those of us who are beseiged by road humps, and rear seats, and comfortable, adjustable front seats and no pointless roll cage....... in fact a 996 with a proper engine! Is that too simple?

The 996 engine is not all that bad (runs for cover) yes they are some problems, but the majority love and enjoy the car, for the money, they is nothing else like it [ ] I think the survey shows that (runs for the hills)[ ]

Yes that's too simple, personally I wish the current GT3 was the base model for the '911' range and the 996 didn't exist. The GT3 is a 'harder car' - thank the car God - I hope they never make a softer version.

Whoa! Don't get me wrong. I am just suggesting that there is an obvious (too me, anyway) variant that could be offered, that is a GT3, but with all the creature comforts of a 'normal' 996, which is an alernative to the C4S type of route. A 2 wheel drive 6-speed 996 with a stonker of an engine. The GT3 RS lap time (in the wet) on Top Gear looks more and more impressive, the more exotic cars the Stig throws around that track! By the way, how many would be prepared to pay the GT3/Turbo engine premium, if it meant they would be able to stop worrying about RMS and so on? Answers on a postcard.

Berny, I was in the back lot at my dealer today and took this picture for you. I should have pulled off the blue tarp for a full view. At least in the US we have the dignity to put broken parts in a box in the back lot so the customers can't see them.[ ]

[FONT=Times New Roman"] As a fairly new owner of a 02 c2cab all this talk of engine changes and failures comes as a real shock! I have very recently exchanged my 02 Boxster for the 996 and up until now I was 'blissfully unaware' of these issues, could anyone please enlighten me about the RMS issue and what, if anything, I can do to check to see if my car has a problem. It is currently under warranty as supplied by the OPC, should I have a check done, if there is one? Tony G

The Boxster also has the RMS issue it's to do with an oil seal that starts to leak. Judging by this thread there would be cause for concern. But we need to be realistic I have had both a Boxster S and a now a 996 for a couple of months and my plan is to enjoy it. If it breaks then i'll deal with it. The cost of the RMS replacement compared to the value of most if any 996 is small, a few hundred pounds. Engine failures seem less common than threads would have us believe and the anecdotal evidence of engines and empty boxes only adds to the mystery and nervousness of owners it doesn't particularly help. I have a warranty on my 996 and shall renew it when it expires. But Porsches are neither cheap to buy nor run that is fact and we all knew that before we bought them. I fully support the surveys and this has shown RMS to be something that does occur to many members, but Porsche have the real figures and I guess they won't be letting those out in a hurry. Just enjoy the car and keep the warranty up to date.

Just come back from the OPC. After a breif "con flab" with the sales man about 997 and RMS. He said that PUK will now just replace a seal no questain ask. Do not know if this is the case, but if it is looks like they are coming to there senses.

Would it be better if Porsche dug deep into their £450m profit and fixed the problem at source, like redesigning the crankcase and oil seals from the ground up?

And after 2 years and the warranty has expired?

it came across as an age if having a full PSH. But only Hear Say.

... you buy a warranty extension. Seems to me we have to think of this mess as simply increasing the cost of running a 996 by £720 a year. I think it would be much better if our friend Wendolin, on his way to collect another award as Germany's best Car Executive, wiped the smirk off his face and applied a large boot to his engineers backsides to fix the problem.

That's about the gist of it. We will all have to shell out an extra £720 a year. But it's not always that easy. I can't get ext warranty cover. Why because after having 7 RMS's fitted (and I see this as their manufacturing fault) they have told me that they wont entertain giving me extended warranty until I replace the engine (at my cost). Catch 22.

Does porsche care? Costs engine failures ? 2% @ £5k cost RMS seals @ £10 15% Total costs to porsche per 100 cars: 2x5k + 15x£10 = £10150 income extended g'tee @£750 a year for 3 yrs say 75% - 70x750x3 = £157500 ie an extra £147350 profit for evey 100 911 sold. plus some people will just trade for a new one at 2 years rather than 3 (so an extra 2 cars every 10 yrs )... Ok the figures are guesswork, but you get my point... why have 400million profit when by building an unreliable car you can increase that further... only when there are no longer waiting lists for their cars will porsche care.

OK, new thought... Of those who have had the RMS replaced under goodwill, who has been recommended (or has decided themselves) to have the Clutch or something else replaced at the same time? After all "while we've got the car apart you may as well..." [&:]

At each RMS change I asked them to inspect it with the go ahead to change it at their discression. But only on my last 7th RMS did they change it at just under 41k miles. This is the first clutch replacement my car has had. Also it required a clutch bearing. They said the bearing was severely on its way out and had it gone it could have cause the entire clutch mechanism to collapse (very expensive). The clutch plate was slightly pitted on one side but there was a fair ammount of meat left on it. They said that because it had started to pit, it was a good idea to change it while the gearbox was out. I saw both clutch and bearing. The bearing was very bad!

My 996 C2 Tip 2002(previous car) suffered complete engine failure. Exactly 1 day after the warranty expired. The fault was a broken exhaust valve. This was after 32k miles. Total cost £11k based upon a engine replacement. After a few weeks of phone calls and worry, Porsche agreed to pay in full, based on goodwill. After checking some dates, I discovered that I had purchased the car (13 months old), and the OPC offers a minimum of 12 months warranty on there approved used cars. Therefore I was covered on warranty. However, I discovered that the OPC who sold the car to me, and completed the engine replacement where in frank discussions with HO, about who was responsible for the cost. I believe they are still discussing it, and this was some 7 months ago. No worries for me, but adds to the long running saga of Engine/warranty claims. One thing I was impressed with was Porsche Assist. They were excellent. Apart from that fact they gave me a VW Phaeton to run around in, what a hunk of junk this was for a cool £50k price ticket, love to see them come on the second-hand market.

It's time that someone finds the cause for all these engine problems. So here is my thinking on the problem for you all to dwell over, but especially the formidable Scoucer. First of all lets look at the types of failures occurring to the M96 (dreaded 996 and Boxster) engine. Leaking RMS and intermediate shaft seals, breaking intermediate shafts, bearing failures, cracked or slipped liners, cracked crankcases etc. etc. Also some owners are experiencing gearbox failures! What we are looking for is a common cause for all of the above. I suggest we start the search with any engine designer's worst nightmare, VIBRATION! Where to look? The clues are there. What's the most common problem? Oil seals leaking at the rear of the engine. But which one leaks first or at least it did up until the modification? The intermediate shaft seal. I have spoken to an independent that has changed over 40, and in his experience, it was nearly always the intermediate shaft seal, which started weeping first (now it's just the owners). So just maybe the intermediate shaft is the place to look. What is different to this shaft compared to earlier generations or even the GT1 type used by the current GT3 and Turbo models? This is where you experts out there have to help me, because I'm no automotive engineer. I think I'm correct in saying that one possible difference is that it has fewer bearings. This coupled together with perhaps over generous engineering tolerances may allow the shaft to suffer vibration and eventually fail oil seals or worse destroy engines? I hope someone at Porsche AG is reading this forum and is brave enough to respond to the many heartbreaking stories (if they have a heart that is). I take delivery of my 997 next month and my heart is in my mouth!

Unfounded rumors. I was at my local dealer this morning and it was the first time I saw 'the box' and it was not an engine failure. Jeff

Hi Jeff, Well that one fell on 'stony ground'[ ] For those followers like me who do not surf every possible website to keep up with the latest developments on the ongoing RMS issue, have you as yet given us 'over here' what you and your fellow owners feel the problem is with the RMS? I did see a short reference to crank off centre on a page earlier - but am not too sure as to whether that is considered to be the main problem with this M96 motor.Point me towards the article if I have missed it already. Thanks for your informed input so far - always nice to read views from people with oily hands[ ]

If you mean me, and not Geoff. Here is now mostly outdate info from a tech session we had in 2003 at my local dealer. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15&st=0&#entry24 The same mechanic, Peter, will put on 987/997 tech session and we are trying to schedule it for April. The problem is the crankshaft is not exactly in the middle of the seal. This is why there are cars with multiple seal replacements and they still leak. It is not the fault of the seal but the nature of the engine design. The crank spins in a cradle. This cradle is attached to the inside of the crankcase. Our guess is that for some reason on some engines the cradle has moved, thus moving the crank off center. The old air cooled and Turbo/GT2/GT3 do not have this design. A new seal has just come out. If you are familiar with an oil seal it has a round spring that pushes the lips against a round shaft. A mechanic I know said he was told at training school the spring is a bit tighter. If true this is a band-aid approach, because mechanics were making the spring tighter by making it shorter years ago. A new bulletin has come out about replacing the bolts for the intermediate shaft flange and rear crankcase. These bolts have a sealant on them, just in case the leak is really from the bolts holes and not the seal. Berny has mentioned this before and this was done to his car. Yet another tool to install the seal has just come out. The 2003 tool pushed the seal deeper into it's bore. With the new tool the seal is not pushed in so deep, but still deeper than the original version of the tool. The go-no-go fixture measuring tool I mentioned in 2003 has turned out to be nothing. The 3 mechanics I spoke to have replaced multiple seals on cars that passed the go-no-go test. I have mentioned my friend Jean on this board, who has had 5 seals replaced. The last few seals were replaced after the fixture had come out and Jean's car passed, but still leaked. In fact, Jean was at the 2003 tech session. The mechanics are back to measuring the crank offset in 4 places. The numbers are sent to Porsche in Atlanta and then it is up to Porsche if another seal is put in or a replacement engine. Come to California in April. If the tech session goes it will be very good as have the ones in the past. Here is a picture I took last week at a nearby dealer that is not my local dealer. Jeff

Hi Jeff Thanks very much for your latest and yes I did mean you. I also have a similar effect on postings on this Board whereby I submit material which for reasons unknown (possibly because of my blunt get to the point style) - (unlike yours I might add) - stops any further discussion as seemed to be the case in your last but one [ ] I wish my style had the same effect on the wife [ ] Can you tell me whether Porsche 'accept' the crankshaft movement as the cause of the problem in the US or have they maintained their UK stance of burying their heads in the sand hoping owners will continue to support their cause regardless of crap design somewhere in the motor? Seemingly they have re-engineered the problem into the latest models. The States 4 year warranty would see most problems showing up in time to enable rectification under warranty by Porsche, but can you tell us what 'line' they take for failures outside that period please? Thanks for the invite to your next Tech session - love to be there but our imminent cruise has taken the readies for this year - would appreciate a DVD if that's possible though [8|] Thanks again and keep well,

Chap I feel impelled to respond to this; each to this own etc. but what is the point of owning a car like this if you don't drive it properly? I don't thrash my car my many people's standards but do take it to 6 or 7K rpm on occasion when warmed up for a quick thrash, but not to take it above 3.5K rpm ever sounds like a Roller may be more your style...

A quick update: Alison tracked me down by phone and I gave her the full story of my exploding engine and subsequent arguments and negotiations with my OPC, Porsche GB and Germany. Some interesting figures: my engine failed in November 2003. My OPC originally quoted £9,500 inc VAT for the new engine (£6,500) and labour (£3,000). During one of our many arguments one of the people at the dealership let slip that the engine only really cost £2,700 and the rest was profit. This is why I ended up paying only £2,700 and Porsche paid the rest. Now, they have just quoted Alison £11,500 for engine and labour. There's something not quite right here. And to set the record straight about the aspersions cast by Si upon my wife's driving: there were two black C2s in my area at the time. The one in Bracknell (reg H1GGY) was not mine (H16GY H). We discovered the existence of the other one when, would you believe, we moved house to the Bracknell area in 2005! Happy to report that my CLK is enjoying the backroads, and the Met Office roundabout would make a great racetrack if it were not for the four sets of traffic lights around it!

LOL.[ ] Please don't take it personally, What are Porsches for if you can't sprint in them once in a while. I used to race her in my Audi TT and was always frustrated when i caught her up at the lights only to find it was a grey haired old man[ ][ ] That's why i bought a Carrera 4. And a fine robust car it is too. Richard, i think your case speaks volumes in terms of the way you dealt with the whole situation thus saving you and your wife £'000s of pounds. It's just such a shame when Porsche can pick and choose who they want to 'shaft'. Alison is looking at a bill for £15,000 and you were in the same situation and paid £2700!!! Thanks for responding in this matter. Regards Si

Interesting posts. One thing I am not quite clear about - 'Alimac' does not have the Porsche Warranty as per an earlier post. Did 'Higgy' have the Porsche warranty when his engine blew up? I am wondering whether the treatment dished out by the OPC in these cases relates to either having, or not having, the Porsche Warranty?