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YOUR RESEARCHI found a very nice Carrera 911...
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Replace bearing
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Leading evidence: 'Replace bearing' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is '$18-20k car' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Recommend )' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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my 2001 C2 had 114K and had replaced bearing at 112K by PO
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my 2003 C4S i sold 2 years ago had 72K miles and i replaced clutch and bearing at 67K miles because there was no record of replacement
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My opinion is there is approximately equal risk whether the bearing has not been replaced or was replaced within the last 5-10K miles.
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Assuming it's a RWD coupe with manual transmission and some desirable options (HIDs, leather, etc..) then it's really probably a $18-20k car.
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Suggestion
Before changing the bearing I'd call LNE to see when that might be available so you can judge if you want to wait that long and have that option if you turn out to have a dual row.
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Suggestion
now my 2003 C4S that i sold a couple of months ago was running on original IMS bearing BUT it had almost 120K miles - in this case i feel the bearing has gone for such a distance that the odds are it will last
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I have been looking at a 2000 Carrera 911 - 30,000 miles one owner car. Price out the door $24,000. Car is in very nice shape.
The price of $24k is within my allowance - but like many first time Porsche buyers on the site - I am concerned about the IMS.
That said I am 95% sure that I am going to move forward and purchase the car - knowing that, would those of you on the site here have the IMS & clutch replaced NOW - cost of $3500+/- or have nothing done at all??? ( I am not sure that the clutch needs to be done - but if my Porsche repair shop does the IMS - they will at the same time do the clutch)
I would rather NOT spend the $3500 - but I don't want to worry about that damn IMS matter.
If you buy the car, start a list of things you find that need to be done. Maybe the IMSB is the most pressing thing...and then again, maybe the water pump drips, or maybe the brakes are worn down to the pad backing material.
If you buy the car without an inspection - I admit that I did this, as I fell in love with the car - it's still a very good idea to schedule an appointment with your independent Porsche mechanic. Mine very reliable and common-sense indie went over the car and listed items that needed immediate attention, items that needed attention relatively soon, and "someday" items, which allowed me to see what stuff was pressing. I waited several months to do the IMSB. The clutch started slipping, so that was the time to do the bearing.
The bummer for you is that the one piece of information that would be most helpful for you deciding whether now is the best time to retrofit is whether your car has a single-row or dual-row bearing...and you won't know until your mechanic is actually in the process of replacing it since the 2000 can be equipped with either type.
If this is the right car for you, I hope you wind up buying it - and I hope you wind up concentrating on the important stuff (i.e. Holy hell! I own and am driving a 911!) rather than agonizing about maintenance issues...
The 2000 911 Carrera is a very nice, capable car ... especially for a 1st Porsche. That said, I highly recommend a PPI from an independent Porsche shop. That is very low miles for a 15 year old car. There may be others issues [eg: seals, gaskets, bushings, etc.] that would need attention beyond the IMS. If it needed a clutch for example and you decide to go ahead and buy it, addressing the IMS bearing issue would be best done at the same time as the clutch.
use the IMS issue to your benefit and grind the hell out of the seller - cry like a big scared baby
should be able to grind at least $1750 off sale price
Damn, I feel bad for the seller. Sure, the 996 is the Porsche bargain of the eon, but assuming the seller originally paid somewhere around $90K and a $24K sales price, he paid about $2 in depreciation for every mile driven. Add fuel, repairs, tires, etc. - that's some expensive mileage for the original owner.
OP, if you do wind up buying the car, I expect you to do better.
No, he's suggesting that the IMS bearing is largely responsible for decimating the value of the 996, and since you're buying a car that has not been retrofitted, you could probably put the squeeze on the seller since you're probably going to do this service (based on your original post).
Warning: Opinion!
If I buy another 996, I will _only_ buy one that has not been retrofitted. You will never be completely sure of the reason for the retrofit. Maybe it was 100% preventive and maybe the bearing was in PERFECT condition when it was removed. On the other hand, maybe it wasn't. If you buy an unmolested car, you KNOW. If you buy a retrofitted car, you can only believe what the seller says and what the documentation indicates.
considering the 30K miles on the car with no IMS replacement, the IMS would be an important issue if i were buying the car. the car is getting near the IMS failure sweet spot.
i would bet good money at this point in the negotiation where you are so close to buying and they are so happy to sell it, a good IMS argument should get you a better deal - i'd grind the hell out of them
PO mentions "out the door" so i assume it is a dealer who damn well knows the IMS story and i'm sure will deal if approached properly
this warning makes absolutely no sense to me - IMHO, low mileage 996's are prone to IMS failure - if you have documentation of preventative IMS replacement, why would you not buy it?
now my 2003 C4S that i sold a couple of months ago was running on original IMS bearing BUT it had almost 120K miles - in this case i feel the bearing has gone for such a distance that the odds are it will last
my 2003 C4S i sold 2 years ago had 72K miles and i replaced clutch and bearing at 67K miles because there was no record of replacement
my 1999 C2 had 89K with replaced bearing
my 2001 C2 had 114K and had replaced bearing at 112K by PO
Normally I'm a wait for the clutch type of guy (which is what we did with ours at 70k), but at less than 2k miles per year that is an ideal candidate for low milage problems. The IMSB (and many other parts of the car) appear to actually like being used, and this one hasn't been (at least not much).
On top of that, as has been pointed out, until you are in there you won't know if you have a dual or single row.
With all that said, I'd plan on changing the bearing soon (which also means you might as well do the clutch and look hard at the flywheel even though both probably have half their life left or more), but if it was otherwise a $24k car in my opinion I wouldn't sweat it if they stonewall.
Jake has mentioned that there is a Dual Row Solution coming soon (developed awhile ago but never released). Before changing the bearing I'd call LNE to see when that might be available so you can judge if you want to wait that long and have that option if you turn out to have a dual row. If I had known that we had a Dual Row hiding in our 2001 or that the Solution was coming soon I would have put it off until it was available.
Now with all that said, what makes it a $24k car? Assuming it's a RWD coupe with manual transmission and some desirable options (HIDs, leather, etc..) then it's really probably a $18-20k car. If it's a C4, has the Aero Kit, LSD, sunroof delete, or something else special then maybe $24k at the top end. Personally I think the MkIs are worth more, but they are selling low right now and $20k seems to be the high mark for a RWD manual coupe unless there is something special about it.
Why was it done? Was it inspected to your satisfaction? Was the job done right? Which part got used and is it one I'd put in the motor?
There are cases where a retrofit would not be an issue, but it's kinda like having an accident on it's record in my opinion. If there isn't a mountain of details about what/why/when/how it was done then it's going to be a big question mark. At least with an accident, however, a good body shop PPI can find the signs to be concerned by, with the IMSB the only way to know is to have a few thousand of work done. So if it wasn't done by a very small list of shops or was the Solution, then in my book a retrofitted M96 is no different than a stock M96.
And I say that knowing that if someone was trying to sell me our own car I wouldn't be willing pay for the retrofit that was done this summer (and 500ish miles ago
). I went the path I did (e.g. not as a detailed an inspection at recommended) because I trust the shop and know the entire history of the car/motor. Take those parts of the equation away and all I have is the serial number and work order for the bearing, but LNE won't know anything about our VIN since I kept the old bearing. Luckily resale is a non-issue for this car
My opinion is there is approximately equal risk whether the bearing has not been replaced or was replaced within the last 5-10K miles. Because if the OEM bearing is in the process of failing, there could be debris in the engine that will shorten the life of the retrofit unless it is scrupulously cleaned-out. Likewise if the bearing was replaced in such a scenario, the retrofit could be well on its way to failing. That is why I would want a thorough PPI including a look inside the pan. Just cutting open the oil filter won't tell much if the filter has recently been changed.
However if the retrofit was done >10K miles ago and hasn't failed, there is more assurance that there was no internal debris, and the retrofit should last a normal lifespan.
But frankly there are other potential issues, for which again, I would want a very comprehensive PPI. For starters, I would want to start that engine fully cold and run it up to fully warm, all the while listening for any ticking/tapping/knocking sounds!
If the bearing was replaced as PM, the original was in perfect condition when it came out, and things were documented in such a way that I believed it, I would buy it.
This site alone has provided multiple instances where a failing bearing has been "fixed" by slapping in a new bearing and changing the oil - and some of those folks have wound up holding the short straw. A car with a retrofit bearing and no documentation is, in my opinion, potentially riskier than a similar car with the original bearing. Just because a car has been resprayed doesn't mean it's been in an accident - but if you don't have any other information, would you rather have the car that's been resprayed with no additional info or one that has a few stone chips in the original paint?
Since you tend to keep your cars for about 11 days, I don't imagine this would be much of a concern for you, but I don't want a car that has just been patched up well enough to sell.
I thought the '99s and '00s were all double row bearings and the changeover began at some point in MY2001, but no one knows for sure when in 2001 the single rows began to appear and the double rows stopped. Also thought that the high-risk period was MY 2001 to MY 2005, with the larger bearing appearing around MY2006 and much less prone to failure.
And, how the hell did this turn into an IMSB thread and how the hell did I get sucked into it?
I thought it was mid-2000 that the single row came to be. I know Jake has discussed finding a dual row in a 2003's motor, so while the MY is a good indicator I think anything after MY99 just has diminishing odds of having the dual row.
Umm, because asked and because you're your own fault
I will. Tell the ONE OWner to read the IMS thread
and then offer them 18K If your affraid of dropping $3-5K on prevention on one then you could just as easily find one comparable IMO for that much less.
For 24K max either you should buy an air cooled
or use it as down on a CPO
NewToThis, with the low miles and one owner history, the price seems fair. The owner should have all the service records or at least be able to identify the one or two shops that serviced the car. A $200 pre-purchase inspection would be money well spent. My gut says yes replace the ims, while potentially not necessary, done correctly it will not hurt the car, will provide "peace of mind," and make the car easier to resell to some when you decide you need a turbo or 997.
You should be.
First, the car is way overpriced.
Second, if you paid $24,000 then immediately sink another $3500 into it, you would have a 15 year old, nothing special 996, at $27,000 initial investment. Bad way to start IMO.
Consider buying the right car, the first time.
sort of a silly statement considering i've owned my '59 356 sunroof for 25 yrs and my 66 911 for 30 yrs. - neither of which i will sell.
5CHN3LL you'd be lucky to buy a car i've owned.
i've gone thru a few 996's - the C4S is a great car but was a stepping stone to the TT i hope to have in my garage next year.
condition and longevity are always my first concern when buying any porsche.
thin_concrete owns my favorite C4S - my well sorted example with updated IMS/clutch at 68K miles - i think he'd agree
Ok, GZ, I get it. You are awesome and your opinion is unimpeachable.
I'm off to fantasize about owning your cars in the bath. I might light one of the wife's scented candles.
I was in the same situation a couple of months ago. I just bought a 2003 with 77k miles. Decided to get the ims done since it needed a new clutch. Peace of mind for me vs worrying about the engine imploding and having a $20k+ paperweight.
Pot calling Kettle....
Did you ever maintain a spreadsheet of all the unneccesary items and your time you spent on your 996?
Why didn't YOU buy the right car the first time Bruh?
He is correct.I bought one with exactly this issue.It lasted 10 days.
"This site alone has provided multiple instances where a failing bearing has been "fixed" by slapping in a new bearing and changing the oil - and some of those folks have wound up holding the short straw. A car with a retrofit bearing and no documentation is, in my opinion, potentially riskier than a similar car with the original bearing. Just because a car has been resprayed doesn't mean it's been in an accident - but if you don't have any other information, would you rather have the car that's been resprayed with no additional info or one that has a few stone chips in the original paint?"
i would only buy, and only recommend buying a 996 if it has service history - therefore any 996 i purchase with upgraded IMS bearing will have full service history.
additionally, i would only buy a C4S 996 because they are better looking, better handling as well as stronger resale value when trading in or selling.
with prices of C4S's coming down to the $24-$28K price range, it is a no-brainer investing in the better looking, better handling, better resale value C4S
next question please....
The only thing keeping the 996 market price from bottoming is the specialty models. By all rights a plain high mileage 996 C2 should be in the $10,000 range. No way you should invest anywhere near the mid to high 20's on one.
The IMS replacement math looks like this to me.
If you have a single row, you have a 1/14 chance of needing to spend $15,000 on a replacement engine. The expected value is $1,071.
If you have a double row, you have a 1/50 chance of needing to spend $15,000 on a replacement engine. The expected value is $300.
You are actually much better off self-insuring if you have a double row. Say putting away $2,000 every year towards a replacement 996 if yours grenades. Assuming you can get $5,000 for your roller, in 4 years you'll have enough for a replacement 996. If it doesn't fail, you now have $8,000 saved up. The other reason self-insuring against IMS failure makes sense is because there are at least 5 other failure modes besides the IMS. So that brand new $2,500 IMS replacement job won't help you with those other expensive failure, but self-insurance will.
I have a 2000 c2 really great car!!!
I paid about the same as what your looking at - cheap cars are not always the least expensive in the long run
Spend 24k and get a pristine 996 example or get a beat to S$#t air-cooled car for the same coin
put the money aside for clutch AOS RMS and IMS - when the clutch starts slipping do all the PM stuff - my clutch started slipping at 27k
