What Ails Porsche? - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I recently did a bit of a dive into Porsche's issues. Here's the 1st part of it: What Ails Porsche? On July 18, Reuters (see: Reuters Porsche Article) reported that Porsche CEO Oliver Blume stated in a letter to Porsche’s leadership: “Our business model that sustained us over many decades no longer is functioning today in its current form. Business conditions have deteriorated massively within a short period of time.” And that: "In the second half of 2025, employer and employee representatives will negotiate a second structural package to secure the company's long-term performance" Porsche’s sales peaked in 2023 at 330k cars delivered. In 2025, they are on track for 290k. The model has not been functioning for a while now. What has changed is that it’s no longer deniable, and Blume is finally coming clean on it. When I took a look at Porsche’s 1st half 2024 results (see: Porsche's 1st Half 2024 Results), I stated: With supply issues likely to continue well into the 2nd half, on-going challenges in China, and a big bet on EVs that’s looking rather untimely right now, even the lower guidance that Porsche just issued for 2024 looks ambitious. And that was the polite version. A year later, all of these issues remain, and you can now add a fourth to the list: US Auto Tariffs. To top it all off, Porsche has a part-time CEO and a largely new executive board at a time when the wheels are clearly coming off. I would classify the issues into two groups: 1. self-inflicted/own goals 2. external challenges 1. Self-inflected/Own Goals In the self-inflicted/own goals category, I would put China, EVs and management. Looking at each in a bit more detail: China Porsche has been widely unsuccessful at stopping the bleeding in China for the last several years. In 2021, Porsche sold 97k cars in China, Porsche’s largest market, and it represented 32% of total vehicles delivered. By 2023, China’s share had dropped to 25%. In 2024, China’s share of Porsche’s total retail sales was down to 18%, with sales of around 56k vehicles. In the 1st half of 2025, China’s share was 14.5% which straight lines roughly to sales of 42k vehicles in FY 2025. In four years, Porsche’s business in China has more than halved and it is continuing to drop. Annual sales of 25k vehicles is likely where it will bottom out. This China trend of boom and then bust is a risk Porsche executives should have been well aware of and prepared for. It’s very much the same well documented trend most multinational consumer product companies have gone through in China over recent decades. The Chinese market is anything but a level, transparent playing field. As quickly as you are able to grow a business in China, they have the ability to take it away. Porsche’s biggest mistake was getting addicted to the revenue and building out structure to support a business that was never going to last. Ferrari has a self-imposed China limit of 10% of sales. Porsche would have been wise to follow Ferrari’s lead. EVs Porsche’s portfolio issues can be related directly back to a decision taken back in 2022 to bet heavily on EVs. The original plan called for 50% of sales being in hybrids and EVs by 2025, rising to 80% pure EVs in 2030. In 2024, 12.7% of Porsche’s sales were in EVs and sales of its flagship EV, the Taycan, dropped by 49%. In terms of strategic blunders, this one isn’t too far off the Austrian Hussars who refused to share their schnapps at the Battle of Karánsebes. What makes it quite surprising is Porsche’s core customers are a highly engaged and enthusiastic group. Had Porsche done its homework and asked this group the right questions, I am positive 80% EVs in 2030 is not the answer they would have gotten. Why it took Porsche so long to figure this out is a mystery, but it appears they finally have. In the last earnings call, Blume did deliver a bit of a mea culpa in his opening statement: “The global rapid EV ramp-up has not yet materialised. Although the ramp-up of electromobility has slowed down in some regions, we continue to see electromobility as the technology of the future. And we want to make it a success in the long term. Our product strategy would still allow for the goal of delivering more than 80% fully electric sports cars by 2030. In view of market developments, however, this is no longer realistic. Our ramp-up will therefore adapt to the market developments. As currently we anticipate a much longer transition phase, we have taken this as an opportunity to revise our product planning in specific areas. “As before, our product strategy includes a balanced range of combustion engines, hybrids and electric sports cars. We are expanding and extending our portfolio of hybrid and combustion engine models. At the same time, we are strengthening our brand core with emotional combustion engine vehicles.” It’s that last line that sums up Porsche’s huge insights miss on what its customer really wants from a sports car brand. It’s emotional, combustion-engine vehicles - and right now EVs can’t deliver that emotional experience. Back in 2023 at the Financial Times Future of the Car Summit, McLaren’s then CEO, Michael Leiter, said he was not sold on EV as a powertrain solution for supercars given both the weight and lack of emotion. Given that Leiter started his career at Porsche and prior to joining McLaren was Ferrari’s Chief Technology Officer, that was a hugely powerful statement based on an in-depth understanding of the technology. Porsche certainly would have been aware of this and would have done well to heed Michael’s advice. The cost of the EV miss is €800 million and counting. While Porsche is finally pivoting back to ICE and hybrids, a lot of damage has been done. Part-time CEO Herr Blume Porsche AG CEO Oliver Blume also serves as the CEO of Volkswagen AG. Given the shared leadership, it’s not surprising that both Volkswagen and Porsche are facing many of the same issues due to the same strategic missteps in leadership direction. Both companies are quite sizeable and highly complex in their own right. When the issue of Porsche effectively having a part time CEO was brought up on the latest earnings calls, Blume rather testily replied: “Yes, a very fair, fair question. And first of all, my intention is to do both jobs 100%, and it's up to my organization to do so. And as you know, from the beginning on, it was carefully thought to do both jobs at the same time. But the double role is not designed forever being very clear here. And I will do it as long as we have some big issues to solve. I hope we were able to show you yesterday how the restructuring in Volkswagen Group is advancing. And this was only possible, it was a double role with the power of the double role and the independency. “For example, only the agreements we have taken at the end of last year, they were historical. They have never happened in the past and only with a double role it was possible to bring this change into -- in the Volkswagen Group beside of all the technical and strategic decisions we've shown yesterday. For Porsche, the double role still has got big advantages when you look to all the political discussions, I combine both roles with my Volkswagen role, I'm possible to talk to the highest authorities in China to the U.S. when it comes to tariffs and other agreements. I put Porsche into this negotiations only with the partial role, I would have never been able to get at this level to talk to them. They are completely different and when you see the software agreements we have taken with Rivian, where Porsche now plays a big part into this benefiting from a future-based one architecture that was possible with my double role. “And so, I think up to now, it works quite well. It's my organisation. And in a certain time, I will decide to leave one of the jobs.” While it is physically impossible for Blume to do both jobs 100% as he claims, I do buy Blume’s argument that his twin CEO hats give Porsche political access in China that it might not be able to get without Volkswagen’s weight behind it. Given Porsche’s results in China, the tangible benefits of this access are quite nebulous. On all the other examples that Blume cites, I am much less convinced. At the end of the day, Porsche AG and Volkswagen AG are both controlled by Porsche SE. Both “AGs” have multiple members of the supervisory boards in common, which should be more than enough to ensure the cross sharing of technology platforms and manufacturing capacity across both businesses. As for the software agreement and investment in Rivian, why they are investing multiple billions and tying themselves to a struggling US EV/SUV manufacturer with declining sales is beyond me. Given Porsche’s major strategic missteps on China and EVs, if I sat on Porsche’s supervisory board, I would certainly be challenging the dual CEO role. Stellantis and Ferrari are in a similar situation with Exor as a controlling shareholder and they certainly do not share a CEO. Ferrari’s market cap is more than twice Porsche AG’s. As for Blume referring to Porsche as “my organisation”, the statement does tend to imply a top-down dictatorial type approach that might just happen to be a key contributor to the China and EV messes. Also, the comment that “in a certain time, I will decide to leave one of the jobs” is quite dismissive of the fact that Blume reports to a supervisory board. Last I checked, CEO succession was a board-level decision. Most people who hold two jobs do it as they need the money to make ends meet. As Blume made a bit over €10 million in 2024, he can probably afford to give up one of the two roles.

Maybe the arrogance and assumption that customers are walking wallets to be used and abused has come home to roost. Of all my automotive experiences, Porsche have been the worst by a country mile!

Inbox said: Maybe the arrogance and assumption that customers are walking wallets to be used and abused has come home to roost. This, and the fact that their core product isn't the cars they actually make in volume.

Bragging about how much money you are making out of your customers whilst simultaneously alienating legacy customers by refusing to sell them the new car that they wanted, was a very bad move. They allowed their OPC's to play the dirtiest of games ... even on finance (which was visibly milking their customers) resulting in a significant oversupply of the market. Of course this was driven by their ambition to float, it was therefore a short term game plan which added to recent events is now crucifying them. The fact also that their volume cars are polished VW's and recent technical issues has also brought into question the depth of their engineering. This is tough, because at their heart they still make very good sports cars .... but where now are their customers ?

EVs are s t and they back 80% of the company on the kind of eco vomit spiel our PH eco shills excel in producing gallons of daily. It’s pretty obvious the whole ICE ban crap will be reversed across most of the civilised world in due course as the pendulum swings back from the misguided extreme woke era. More ICE f k bulls t unworkable eco legislation, that needs to be the new Porsche strategy. f k the eco wokes.

Maybe if they hadn't been smart arses in the markets and tried to swallow a whale which promptly turned round and had them for breakfast, they might have been focussed on offering the best to their customers rather than pleasing the corporate monster that is VAG. Arrogance before a fall? Plus I think the Chinese are handing VAG including Porsche their respective arses in the EV market.

Inbox said: Maybe the arrogance and assumption that customers are walking wallets to be used and abused has come home to roost. Of all my automotive experiences, Porsche have been the worst by a country mile! Corporate greed and a slavish addiction to the EV addiction the EU bureauprats fed and dictated to them. What goes round comes round, and then some.

OP, which of all that are your words and which are from an article? By definition aren’t own goals self-inflicted?

You can only trade for so long on your history as a sports car maker. The 911 Turbo Athena poster can only be re-framed so many times. You can dilute that for a bit and get away with it. But when you try to become all things to all men: Boxster > SUV > Saloon > Small SUV and you've gone everywhere you can go (Porsche light commercial van?) and you've made yourself just another German car maker. Porsches are everywhere and they don't turn heads anymore. They have lost their cachet. You've done all of that in a period of relative global wealth, when your aspirational middle-class customer has had access to cheap money. But you've made your product generic and not special anymore. There are many economic pressures upon your customers, they can no longer borrow so cheaply. You cannot move your product up market any more than BMW or Mercedes can, because that space is occupied by Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce (and your parent owns half of them anyway). So, you've leveraged your history really well and made astonishing profits in the process. But it's a trick that won't work anymore, your customer doesn't see your products as worth over-extending for now and, even if they did, they wouldn't have the money to buy them. What is the solution? There isn't one. We are back in an time where only the very wealthy can afford cars that are really set apart from the run-of the-mill. That's my take on where the brand is in the product life cycle.

Inbox said: Maybe if they hadn't been smart arses in the markets and tried to swallow a whale which promptly turned round and had them for breakfast, they might have been focussed on offering the best to their customers rather than pleasing the corporate monster that is VAG. It's hard not to think that WW (because I can't be arsed to google how to spell his name) has a lot to answer for.

Count897 said: EVs are s t and they back 80% of the company on the kind of eco vomit spiel our PH eco shills excel in producing gallons of daily. It’s pretty obvious the whole ICE ban crap will be reversed across most of the civilised world in due course as the pendulum swings back from the misguided extreme woke era. More ICE f k bulls t unworkable eco legislation, that needs to be the new Porsche strategy. f k the eco wokes. Have you checked your blood pressure recently? You don't have to use an electric monitor, manual ones are still available.

Stick Legs said: Inbox said: Maybe the arrogance and assumption that customers are walking wallets to be used and abused has come home to roost. This, and the fact that their core product isn't the cars they actually make in volume. And the ones they do make in volume (e.g the 2023 Cayenne we had) are now poor quality and far too clearly value engineered. Same goes for the 992.2 and the Panamera. This value engineering approach is very clear across all the model ranges and exactly why we sold ours after 4 months. Our 2018 Cayenne was far better built and more pleasant to live with.

Maxym said: OP, which of all that are your words and which are from an article? By definition aren’t own goals self-inflicted? The OP is SSOreport.com where all the articles and data is available in full with a free sign up. I believe it was a spin off from the original financial reports that used to be in EVO back in the day? I might be wrong of course.

PRO5T said: Inbox said: Maybe if they hadn't been smart arses in the markets and tried to swallow a whale which promptly turned round and had them for breakfast, they might have been focussed on offering the best to their customers rather than pleasing the corporate monster that is VAG. It's hard not to think that WW (because I can't be arsed to google how to spell his name) has a lot to answer for. CEO Wendelin Wiedeking with Holger Härter as chief architect of the plan. They sounds like a Bond villan and sidekick.

Inbox said: Maybe if they hadn't been smart arses in the markets and tried to swallow a whale which promptly turned round and had them for breakfast, they might have been focussed on offering the best to their customers rather than pleasing the corporate monster that is VAG. Arrogance before a fall? Not quite, as Porsche SE ended up controlling VW after that debacle presided over by Wiedeking as part of his battle with Piëch, the Porsche and Piech families always controlled both it was an internal family argument around the structure, with Wiedeking as the front man on one side, Wiedeking lost.

"Turbo" becoming a trim level. We like to laugh at BMW's 'big ///M for Motorsport & little ///M for Marketing' but the Taycan Turbo was an illustrative exercise in shark jumping.

Porsche’s slide started the moment it went public. The IPO unlocked billions, but it also locked the company into one mission: keep the shareholders happy. That’s why they went all-in on EVs (chasing fatter margins) and doubled down on China—two bets that have now blown up in their face. Porsche isn’t Ferrari, and never will be. Ferrari plays the scarcity game; Porsche plays the volume game. Ferrari protects its sporting DNA. Porsche’s been milking the badge on Cayennes, Macans, and Taycans. One brand builds dreams; the other builds whatever sells. The so-called halo cars? Porsche’s halo models simply don’t cast a big enough halo to carry the brand. Most people can’t even get near them. Allocations are very limited, and OPCs often hand them to the same ‘preferred’ customers who flip or hoard rather than using them to grow the brand’s enthusiast base. The supply of these cars should have increased, and allocations should have been determined by Porsche AG, not the OPC, and not even Porsche GB. The focus shifted from cars for driving enthusiasts to luxury goods for brand enthusiasts. Prices are up, profits are down, the brand’s diluted, and even the 911 is starting to look like just another SKU in a corporate product catalogue. This was never a viable business model, just a short-term cash grab. In the end, you reap what you sow, and Porsche and its dealers are suffering the errors of their ways.

It's simple really, they went from a niche brand, a once proud brand that we all lusted after as a "one day" car, to a brand that was spreading itself thinly to satisfy the hungry beast that is VAG. They didn't have a choice really; TVR, Lotus, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Jaguar etc, stood alone once, not now. Pop into your local OPC and you'll be confused; 911's (various iterations), Caymans, Boxsters, EV's, Panamera's. There's too much going on. The cars are too expensive in 2025. The decision not to give the customer what they wanted and the whole GT product malarkey alienated trusted customers, customers that now drive AMG's, Aston Martins, Ferrari's. Further, and the elephant in the room, fast cars are useless; too fast, complicated, expensive to run and no longer exclusive. A Model S is just as fast, cheaper to run, can carry the kids and you can watch YT while your wife is shopping. Where they're fortunate however, is that they're part of VAG. The decision could come for them to specialise in a slimmed down model sector, leaving the slack to be taken over by VW, SEAT, Audi. They're safe - for now. Edited by maz8062 on Sunday 10th August 15:37

Sierra Mike said: The focus shifted from cars for driving enthusiasts to luxury goods for brand enthusiasts. Prices are up, profits are down, the brand’s diluted, and even the 911 is starting to look like just another SKU in a corporate product catalogue. This was never a viable business model, just a short-term cash grab. In the end, you reap what you sow, and Porsche and its dealers are suffering the errors of their ways. maz8062 said: They didn't have a choice really; TVR, Lotus, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Jaguar etc, stood alone once, not now... ...The cars are too expensive in 2025. The decision not to give the customer what they wanted and the whole GT product malarkey alienated trusted customers, customers that now drive AMG's, Aston Martins, Ferrari's. Further, and the elephant in the room, fast cars are useless; too fast, complicated, expensive to run and no longer exclusive. A Model S is just as fast, cheaper to run, can carry the kids and you can watch YT while your wife is shopping. Both of these are on point. If you see a new 911 Turbo you expect to see a bloke in his late 60's. If you see a 911 GT3 you expect to see a influencer. The enthusiast market, where the 911 used to be is I assume buying either Caymans or older 911s.

Maxym said: OP, which of all that are your words and which are from an article? By definition aren’t own goals self-inflicted? I wrote the original article. and yes

Ed.Neumann said: The OP is SSOreport.com where all the articles and data is available in full with a free sign up. I believe it was a spin off from the original financial reports that used to be in EVO back in the day? I might be wrong of course. You are spot on. These all started years ago in EVO.

Seeing as China is blamed for all bad results in the last few years, what is going on there? Can they no longer afford premium cars or something?

DMZ said: Seeing as China is blamed for all bad results in the last few years, what is going on there? Can they no longer afford premium cars or something? No, they are buying home grown vehicles instead cutting off important revenue to European and US car makers and no doubt others.

Inbox said: DMZ said: Seeing as China is blamed for all bad results in the last few years, what is going on there? Can they no longer afford premium cars or something? No, they are buying home grown vehicles instead cutting off important revenue to European and US car makers and no doubt others. Chinese market has detached from Europe. Almost all new sales are electrified, with majority pure BEV. Last time I read there were > 80 local OEMs .. insane really. Porsche has got squeezed out.

modeller said: Inbox said: DMZ said: Seeing as China is blamed for all bad results in the last few years, what is going on there? Can they no longer afford premium cars or something? No, they are buying home grown vehicles instead cutting off important revenue to European and US car makers and no doubt others. Chinese market has detached from Europe. Almost all new sales are electrified, with majority pure BEV. Last time I read there were > 80 local OEMs .. insane really. Porsche has got squeezed out. There will be rationalisation in the Chinese market at some point either through companies failing or the bigger manufacturers playing pac-man. Maybe some of the very big European manufacturers will succumb when the Chinese come back for another bite.

Inbox said: DMZ said: Seeing as China is blamed for all bad results in the last few years, what is going on there? Can they no longer afford premium cars or something? No, they are buying home grown vehicles instead cutting off important revenue to European and US car makers and no doubt others. Yes I get that they are buying home grown EVs, but my question was why they stopped buying premium cars all of a sudden. If I’m normally a Porsche buyer then I usually don’t replace it with some cheap appliance from some brand that launched a month ago. Unless I no longer have Porsche money to spend. So what I’m curious about is if they have no money all of a sudden or if they think premium cars are pointless all of a sudden or if they think they have local premium cars that match Porsche et al and are happy to buy them cheaply instead. You would think understanding this would be pretty important for let’s say Porsche but I have only ever seen reporting of the poor Chinese sales figures, not the actual reason behind them.

Inbox said: DMZ said: Seeing as China is blamed for all bad results in the last few years, what is going on there? Can they no longer afford premium cars or something? No, they are buying home grown vehicles instead cutting off important revenue to European and US car makers and no doubt others. You also have Xi's anti corruption campaigns and a general frowning on luxury / displays of wealth right now.

Porsche new cars are expensive, pure ICE cars are being discontinued and replaced with hybrids or EV’s Based on that i will keep my ICE Porsche cars and see no need to replace them I suspect i am not alone Macan GTS & Cayman 718 GT4 owner with no desire to swap them

Porsche wont sell the cars people want to buy, id like a GT3 touring. They cant sell the ones nobody wants - eg. Taycan. Theres a pretty simple answer.

I think Porsche wants you to want a GT3 but they want you to buy the products they're co-developing with Audi. That's their business model for a long time and if that's no longer working, then not good for them I suspect. On my own question(s) re China, I had a chat with my good buddy ChatGPT about this. I've no idea if it can be trusted as it sounds suspiciously like the sort of speculation that the internet is full of but what it told me is that the Chinese don't care that much about how a car drives, they don't really value our heritage a whole lot, and they don't value rarity or exclusivity a whole lot. What's important for them is to get the latest tech first and the tech is all about the gizmos inside of the car. If they can get that for half the price of a Porsche or less then they'll buy the Chinese version, even if everyone else has one or something else that looks much the same. They consider Chinese cars to be superior to European cars in the areas that matter to them so will not pay a premium for what we think is important.

There are unregistered GT3s sat in dealers showrooms in Germany 13 of them, the solution to Porsches problems globally isn't increasing GT car output. https://finder.porsche.com/de/de-DE/search/911?con... Edited by Wills2 on Monday 11th August 09:36

These are the SMMT numbers of new Porsche cars registered in the last 10 months Compared to last year things don't look too bad, even slightly up in most months. But compared to 2 years ago the numbers are down quite a bit since December 2024...

Wills2 said: There are unregistered GT3s sat in dealers showrooms in Germany 13 of them, the solution to Porsches problems globally isn't increasing GT car output. https://finder.porsche.com/de/de-DE/search/911?con... Very different to the UK. Dealer wont take a deposit on a GT3 Touring, not interested in a letter of intent. Just a flat no chance.

bennno said: Wills2 said: There are unregistered GT3s sat in dealers showrooms in Germany 13 of them, the solution to Porsches problems globally isn't increasing GT car output. https://finder.porsche.com/de/de-DE/search/911?con... Very different to the UK. Dealer wont take a deposit on a GT3 Touring, not interested in a letter of intent. Just a flat no chance. Yes but selling another few hundred GT3s in the UK doesn't solve the issue, that's the point.

Wills2 said: Yes but selling another few hundred GT3s in the UK doesn't solve the issue, that's the point. It also clearly makes the point that a few hundred GT3's (300) could add £60M in revenue. As my gran used to say look after the £60M's and it soon adds up.

bennno said: It also clearly makes the point that a few hundred GT3's (300) could add £60M in revenue. As my gran used to say look after the £60M's and it soon adds up. I didn’t know your gran, but I am saying you made this up.

Augustash said: Porsche new cars are expensive, pure ICE cars are being discontinued and replaced with hybrids or EV’s Based on that i will keep my ICE Porsche cars and see no need to replace them I suspect i am not alone Macan GTS & Cayman 718 GT4 owner with no desire to swap them A BEV Cayman if it ever arrives is surely their biggest own goal. Txt.

Furbo said: bennno said: It also clearly makes the point that a few hundred GT3's (300) could add £60M in revenue. As my gran used to say look after the £60M's and it soon adds up. I didn’t know your gran, but I am saying you made this up. Lol parrot incoming. TX.

I think you can add to the list of own goals the decision to increase prices markedly at the same time as increasing volumes. Generally a business can do either/or but doing both at the same time is challenging. You could also add a reluctance to compete on finance rates with other brands, I know that can be a “race to the bottom” but treating the finance business as a separate profit centre is perhaps unrealistic with the wider challenges to the group. I’d also say that the other major problem is that I think car’s they offer today are not markedly better than the cars that were on sale a few years ago. We have three Porsche’s that were bought new in 2017/8. I am not in a hurry to replace any of them because the cars being made today are not markedly better and in some ways worse.

Cheib said: I’d also say that the other major problem is that I think car’s they offer today are not markedly better than the cars that were on sale a few years ago. We have three Porsche’s that were bought new in 2017/8. I am not in a hurry to replace any of them because the cars being made today are not markedly better and in some ways worse. I think there isn't much of a reason to upgrade is the result of the 'value engineering' effectively engineering out the future development of the vehicle and they are now stagnating in the 'good enough' zone. This isn't helped by vehicle platforms being so expensive to develop, shared between brands so they have to live a long time which further constrains progress.

bennno said: Porsche wont sell the cars people want to buy, id like a GT3 touring. They cant sell the ones nobody wants - eg. Taycan. Theres a pretty simple answer. Agree, I have a 930, 993, 997, 718 Spyder and Taycan, and I can't buy what I would actually like next, which is a GT3 Touring. I'm not going to buy what I don't want. Seriously stupid in this day and age.

rs200evo said: bennno said: Porsche wont sell the cars people want to buy, id like a GT3 touring. They cant sell the ones nobody wants - eg. Taycan. Theres a pretty simple answer. Agree, I have a 930, 993, 997, 718 Spyder and Taycan, and I can't buy what I would actually like next, which is a GT3 Touring. I'm not going to buy what I don't want. Seriously stupid in this day and age. I'm very surprised anyone wanting to spend £200k on a GT3 with all the nice spec Porsche should be rolling red carpet out for...

IMI A said: I'm very surprised anyone wanting to spend £200k on a GT3 with all the nice spec Porsche should be rolling red carpet out for... I was advised no chance as if only brought a single 992 from said dealer previously. Was advised if I took one of two stock taycan turbo's, speecd to the max, then I'd get their next allocation....

bennno said: IMI A said: I'm very surprised anyone wanting to spend £200k on a GT3 with all the nice spec Porsche should be rolling red carpet out for... I was advised no chance as if only brought a single 992 from said dealer previously. Was advised if I took one of two stock taycan turbo's, speecd to the max, then I'd get their next allocation.... Well that attitude is biting them in the ass good and proper now, what goes around and all that.

IMI A said: rs200evo said: bennno said: Porsche wont sell the cars people want to buy, id like a GT3 touring. They cant sell the ones nobody wants - eg. Taycan. Theres a pretty simple answer. Agree, I have a 930, 993, 997, 718 Spyder and Taycan, and I can't buy what I would actually like next, which is a GT3 Touring. I'm not going to buy what I don't want. Seriously stupid in this day and age. I'm very surprised anyone wanting to spend £200k on a GT3 with all the nice spec Porsche should be rolling red carpet out for... This is the problem right there, albeit a small problem in the overall scheme of things. If a customer wants to buy a base Carrera with a manual option, you can’t, sorry. If a customer wants to buy a £200k Touring or winged GT3, no sorry, you can’t. If you want to buy a £110k Macan EV, oh yes you can, how are you sir? Unless a product is right at the top of the game, like Rolex, Hermes bags, Hyper cars etc, you have to give the customer what they want. That said, I was at an event over the weekend - there were Porsches everywhere. GT3’s, GT4/RS, Spyder/RS. There were loads of them yet the perception is that you can’t have one. Go figure.

maz8062 said: IMI A said: rs200evo said: bennno said: Porsche wont sell the cars people want to buy, id like a GT3 touring. They cant sell the ones nobody wants - eg. Taycan. Theres a pretty simple answer. Agree, I have a 930, 993, 997, 718 Spyder and Taycan, and I can't buy what I would actually like next, which is a GT3 Touring. I'm not going to buy what I don't want. Seriously stupid in this day and age. I'm very surprised anyone wanting to spend £200k on a GT3 with all the nice spec Porsche should be rolling red carpet out for... This is the problem right there, albeit a small problem in the overall scheme of things. If a customer wants to buy a base Carrera with a manual option, you can’t, sorry. If a customer wants to buy a £200k Touring or winged GT3, no sorry, you can’t. If you want to buy a £110k Macan EV, oh yes you can, how are you sir? Unless a product is right at the top of the game, like Rolex, Hermes bags, Hyper cars etc, you have to give the customer what they want. That said, I was at an event over the weekend - there were Porsches everywhere. GT3’s, GT4/RS, Spyder/RS. There were loads of them yet the perception is that you can’t have one. Go figure. If you have ever seen the cars parked at the back of Reading HQ, there are plenty to pad out an event or 5.

I’m sure if they could they would be selling more gt3 tourings (I’d buy one). They have a a fleet CO issue - to avoid the big fines for hey have to limit them I suspect. Perhaps they could split the GT side off into a new company and try to get under the small manufacturers limits and actually sell more of them

Terminator X said: Furbo said: bennno said: It also clearly makes the point that a few hundred GT3's (300) could add £60M in revenue. As my gran used to say look after the £60M's and it soon adds up. I didn’t know your gran, but I am saying you made this up. Lol parrot incoming. TX. For you perhaps. I was jiving with him. His granny will have said "look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" he knowingly amended it, and posted knowing that it didn't work and that his gran didn't say it.

What I'm reading from the above is that there is a UK specific sales strategy to use the GT3's to drive additional sales of stuff like Taycans. There seems to be an acceptance in the UK market that you need to earn a GT3 and they are continuing to play on that. I wouldn't be surprised that once they run out of folks willing to play along, then you will just be able to walk in and buy a GT3 maybe with a minimum options spend and such.

Furbo said: For you perhaps. I was jiving with him. His granny will have said "look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" he knowingly amended it, and posted knowing that it didn't work and that his gran didn't say it. Lol you're a fool TX.

Back in the last century if you wanted a Mercedes Benz you had to order one from the dealer, pay for extras (that came as standard on every equivilent Japanese car at the time) and potentially wait a year or more for delivery. As a plus to this when you came to sell it 3 years later, rinse, repeat and you'd likely get your money back in part exchange. My father did this up until the early 2000s when the impact of the bean counters became obvious, quality nose dived and they started chasing volume. Fast forward to today and you buy pretty much any Mercedes off the shelf and get a substantial discount. I bought a new Mercedes 3 weeks ago, had a choice of around 40 cars available for immediate delivery, got a 15% discount and pretty much top money for my part exchange. Over 3-4 years I'll still lose 50% of what I paid for it and while I think quality has improved from a low point 10-15 years ago it's no where near the standard set 30+ years ago. Ditto BMW. This is the future for Porsche unless they substantially change their business model but unfortunately I suspect that it's already too late.

Terminator X said: Furbo said: For you perhaps. I was jiving with him. His granny will have said "look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" he knowingly amended it, and posted knowing that it didn't work and that his gran didn't say it. Lol you're a fool TX. Furbo, were you trying to be comical, as per the Rolex thread?

The U.K. Porsche market is a freak show. Look at GT4 RS, from £100k overs and by the end of the production run they couldn’t give allocations away and they’re now discounting brand new, dealer stock from the last batch. There’s too many seats for too few arses. Same with GT3 RS, too many coming back in off the merry go round and those big overs have disappeared. It’s all a con based around the brief scarcity of a few years ago, you want a 9k reving GT3 engine do ya? Take your pick, but only if you trade in your GT4 RS, GT3 RS, Spyder RS, ST, oh and we cream £25k on that trade in too. f k off porsxhe, I’m glad my local OPC don’t return my calls it means I don’t have to deal with all that s te Once the shiny shiny mob have had their .2 Tourings on the gram, there’ll be the GT3 convertable or Speedster to chase and the overs will collapse again. I can’t decide if it’s sad or if it’s funny?

bennno said: Porsche wont sell the cars people want to buy, id like a GT3 touring. They cant sell the ones nobody wants - eg. Taycan. Theres a pretty simple answer. But whilst Porsche make it difficult to order a GT3 it keeps the desirability at max. Obviously they would be desirable if they were easy to order but would lose a bit of kudos. Regarding the car market in general I don’t think no one knows what to do, EV’s losing money like never before but becoming more popular than ever plays right into a cheap Chinese EV manufacturers hands. Why would anyone bother spending big on a vehicle that will lose lots on resale value?

M138 said: a bit of kudos A bit of kudos because they’re hard to order? I’m not wanting to sound pissy but I look at the hoops some owners need to jump through to get one, whoring themselves on the socials, buying untold heavily depreciating crap or attending all the meet and greet PCGB crap and the last thing I think is kudos!

Porsche have allowed themselves to become like Rolex, using a history of fine engineering to sell an brand to people who are interested in image. When I was looking for a second car recently I went into my local OPC and was shocked how little interest the salesman had in actually selling me a car. It is almost as if they have been schooled that being snooty and dismissive makes people chase them. No, it doesn't.

Mosdef said: Terminator X said: Furbo said: For you perhaps. I was jiving with him. His granny will have said "look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" he knowingly amended it, and posted knowing that it didn't work and that his gran didn't say it. Lol you're a fool TX. Furbo, were you trying to be comical, as per the Rolex thread? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. But I try to be comical in all districts of my life. I am crying inside though.

The EV debacle was driven by managers wanting to be politically correct as opposed doing what's right for the company, shareholders and employees. Yes, the moralising political pressure in Germany was at fever pitch a few years back and management played ball against better knowledge. The desaster is now clear to see...

PRO5T said: The U.K. Porsche market is a freak show. Look at GT4 RS, from £100k overs and by the end of the production run they couldn’t give allocations away and they’re now discounting brand new, dealer stock from the last batch. There’s too many seats for too few arses. Same with GT3 RS, too many coming back in off the merry go round and those big overs have disappeared. It’s all a con based around the brief scarcity of a few years ago, you want a 9k reving GT3 engine do ya? Take your pick, but only if you trade in your GT4 RS, GT3 RS, Spyder RS, ST, oh and we cream £25k on that trade in too. f k off porsxhe, I’m glad my local OPC don’t return my calls it means I don’t have to deal with all that s te Once the shiny shiny mob have had their .2 Tourings on the gram, there’ll be the GT3 convertable or Speedster to chase and the overs will collapse again. I can’t decide if it’s sad or if it’s funny? Agreed. Let me share my experience from the past week... Two 4x4 p-cars in for services at our local OPC, in total well over 2k in charges. In both cases nobody can be bothered to greet us or serve us properly, they aren't driven into the inspection bay as promised, they aren't checked over properly, one of the loan cars was damaged and had a dangerous tyre, and one car was in for three days whilst they tried to repair something under warranty, which they didn't in the end, and they broke something else in the meantime. I also had to call a few times to chase up progress and ask when I could have my car back. The whole 'experience' was more Ford than Porsche, albeit at 4x the price. Added to that, today I offered a different OPC a cash offer of about 2k under list price for another approved used p-car, or about 96% of their asking price, and their response was that unless I increased my offer to close on list they wouldn't even bother the sales manager with it. But this wasn't even a halo car, and its overpriced. I'm just about done with the Porsche crap. They talk about high standards but I no longer see it, and their cars are now expensive compared to what you can get for the same money elsewhere. But my main problem is the arrogance. I have been turned down repeatedly for everything from a Macan GTS to replace the one my wife already had (it's at least an 18 month waiting list...) to a new GT3 to replace the one I had (sorry sir, all our allocation has been used up for other customers), whilst they spammed me almost daily, trying to sell me flipped cars at well over list. I would have been a great customer for life, but instead they wanted credit-fuelled influencers and flippers. Good luck with those now, I'm out - our p-cars will be serviced independently, and my next cars will be very different. Not a great way to run a business.

PRO5T said: M138 said: a bit of kudos A bit of kudos because they’re hard to order? I’m not wanting to sound pissy but I look at the hoops some owners need to jump through to get one, whoring themselves on the socials, buying untold heavily depreciating crap or attending all the meet and greet PCGB crap and the last thing I think is kudos! But there were plenty of Porsche owners lapping it up if they were given a chance to buy one of their limited run sports models. It was some Porsche owners that created the monster being subservient to a car dealer. As for Porsche dealers the RS Spyder proves their gravy train has hit the buffers.

First time buyer and it will be my last - love the car but they are just not well made. I have had to pay for service items on my now 6 year old Cayman that has never happened with other cars. Had to refurb the alloys due to corrosion and replace the tailpipe exhaust clips as they had both split. The 6 year service including front brake pads and discs that had delaminated on the inside / exhaust clips was just over £3k. With the warranty its costing the thick end of £200 per month in maintenance. The service guys seem desensitised to what i would say are extortionate hourly rates - i left the dealer feeling as if i had been mugged.

sw67 said: First time buyer and it will be my last - love the car but they are just not well made. I have had to pay for service items on my now 6 year old Cayman that has never happened with other cars. Had to refurb the alloys due to corrosion and replace the tailpipe exhaust clips as they had both split. The 6 year service including front brake pads and discs that had delaminated on the inside / exhaust clips was just over £3k. With the warranty its costing the thick end of £200 per month in maintenance. The service guys seem desensitised to what i would say are extortionate hourly rates - i left the dealer feeling as if i had been mugged. You were mugged!

sw67 said: The 6 year service including front brake pads and discs that had delaminated on the inside / exhaust clips was just over £3k. With the warranty it’s costing the thick end of £200 per month in maintenance. The service guys seem desensitised to what i would say are extortionate hourly rates - i left the dealer feeling as if i had been mugged. Where are you based? Definitely don’t use the opc for this kind of work…

Inbox said: You were mugged! Yip - i only found out about the brakes as it failed its MOT. I was on holiday and was picking the car up on the way home. I will probably run it until its next service is due then sell it.

Count897 said: Where are you based? Definitely don’t use the opc for this kind of work… Based in Ayrshire - i did have a local specialist that agreed to do the clamps then messed me about for 4 months.

sw67 said: Inbox said: You were mugged! Yip - i only found out about the brakes as it failed its MOT. I was on holiday and was picking the car up on the way home. I will probably run it until its next service is due then sell it. I have been as well, got stiffed with the 6 year service 3 months after buying the bloody thing. I love the car but 'the official porsche attitude' has destroyed my view of the brand. I have zero desire or interest in going anywhere near a porsche dealer ever again, f k em.

Inbox said: sw67 said: Inbox said: You were mugged! Yip - i only found out about the brakes as it failed its MOT. I was on holiday and was picking the car up on the way home. I will probably run it until its next service is due then sell it. I have been as well, got stiffed with the 6 year service 3 months after buying the bloody thing. I love the car but 'the official porsche attitude' has destroyed my view of the brand. I have zero desire or interest in going anywhere near a porsche dealer ever again, f k em. Aplos if I've missed something, but on the occasion I bought a used Porsche it came with 2 years service and warranty. Not standard?

23wn_4f2 said: 5050 said: My Touring is currently in build and the prep for transport stage has been pushed back, with delivery now estimated late September (circa 6 weeks later than was originally showing) Anyone else experiencing the same? Yes I had this too, but now its come all the way forward again and just left the factory. Hopefully yours has done the same? this is what annoys alot of customers and is adding fuel to the fire, the corrupt nature of many opc's. the bent as a ten bob note cp, who is now a porsche regional director for his company allocating cars to the same customers, who constantly flip their cars with little or no miles. this poster flipped his .2 gt3t only a month or so back with less than 100 miles i think, whilst having another already in build. says it all really. new iphones, watches and brown envelopes go a long way in certain porsche opc cp/sales managers worlds apparently! the arrogance of the board to keep increasing prices of an inferior product, in terms of build quality to the past and the arrogance of the dealer network is also playing a big part in their demise. i for one, am enjoying watching the porsche ship sink slowly

ChrisW. said: Bragging about how much money you are making out of your customers whilst simultaneously alienating legacy customers by refusing to sell them the new car that they wanted, was a very bad move. They allowed their OPC's to play the dirtiest of games ... even on finance (which was visibly milking their customers) resulting in a significant oversupply of the market. Of course this was driven by their ambition to float, it was therefore a short term game plan which added to recent events is now crucifying them. The fact also that their volume cars are polished VW's and recent technical issues has also brought into question the depth of their engineering. This is tough, because at their heart they still make very good sports cars .... but where now are their customers ? +1

bennno said: Very different to the UK. Dealer wont take a deposit on a GT3 Touring, not interested in a letter of intent. Just a flat no chance. keep trying. i know for a fact of several opc's who are now having to spec winged cars themselves, as they dont have people to take the build slots!! the opc network is trying very hard to hide this, but not long before you will see gt3 advertised new by opc's, just like the 4rs and spyder rs

PRO5T said: The U.K. Porsche market is a freak show. Look at GT4 RS, from £100k overs and by the end of the production run they couldn’t give allocations away and they’re now discounting brand new, dealer stock from the last batch. There’s too many seats for too few arses. Same with GT3 RS, too many coming back in off the merry go round and those big overs have disappeared. It’s all a con based around the brief scarcity of a few years ago, you want a 9k reving GT3 engine do ya? Take your pick, but only if you trade in your GT4 RS, GT3 RS, Spyder RS, ST, oh and we cream £25k on that trade in too. f k off porsxhe, I’m glad my local OPC don’t return my calls it means I don’t have to deal with all that s te Once the shiny shiny mob have had their .2 Tourings on the gram, there’ll be the GT3 convertable or Speedster to chase and the overs will collapse again. I can’t decide if it’s sad or if it’s funny? spot on

gd said: About 25 years ago I used to work close to a Porsche garage, and I used to pop over a lot to kick the tyres of the new Boxsters and 996's they were displaying there (although I really wish I'd bought the 930 turbo they once kindly took me for a test drive in). It felt special, niche, aspirational and a bit out of my reach at the time, although I stretched and bought my first Boxster from them after about a year or so. There were some big differences - it didn't feel corporate, mass market, or 'on brand'... it was all about the cars, the staff were knowledgeable about the products, indeed some were real enthusiasts, the used cars were displayed like museum pieces and were immaculate, and the prices were all under list. At the time I was told that Porsche would not let them sell a used car over list price, as they felt it would damage the brand, so my first Boxster (a lovely 2.5 in silver) was sold to me as a year-old car for five pounds under list at the time, even though there was a waitlist for them. How things change! Over 20+ years my wife and I have had 16 different Porsches, amongst quite a few other cars. And we had some great moments, like picking up a new 996C4S and being made to feel like royalty, or when my pregnant wife took delivery of one of the first Cayennes in the UK (and the dealer had asked Porsche for an early delviery due to our impending delivery!) But in general Porsche now feels a lot like BMW to me... cold, corporate, not remotely interested in customer loyalty, putting profit over service, and a bit arrogant. The OPCs are unfriendly places full of snotty staff that have no product knowledge or customer service skills, prices are frankly a bit ridiculous, service levels are terrible, and the new products don't really do it for me anymore - they feel plasticky and mass market. God, I'm even thinking of buying a 997 now as my old turbo was bulletproof and built so much better than anything they have loaned me recently! For me, the true measure of whether this was a corporate success story was whether you could scale the old business without losing it's sole. And in that, I really do think they have failed. Turning a small-ish sports car manufacturer into a mainstream "mass affluent" brand with perceived status differentiation was never going to be easy, unless you abandon what made you truly great in the pursuit of profits and follow someone else's template, but then you become just another clone car maunfacturer. And for me this is the heart of it - if Porsche want to regain their mojo, they really need to rediscover their sole, find the thing that inspired me and others to really want a 944/968/911/Boxster. Not just churning out ever more plasticky variants of the same cars, with 'value engineering' becoming ever more apparent as the beancounters overrule the engineers. Or EV's than nobody wants or have asked for. And treat all customers well, even those that kick the tyres, as you never know... Of course, over this time they have also switched their target market and I realise that I'm no longer it, since I'm not an on-trend influencer/content creator that flips a car once or more a year and buys everything on credit. But when AI has replaced all of these creators, and autonomic agents are not queueing at the OPC for the latest model, I'll still be a customer. Just one of another brand. good post

wait till the £250k+ turbo s turns up. lead ballon comes to mind, when i think of sales numbers compared with the 992.1 model!!

Count897 said: Soul, and sorry to be a pedantic but yes 100% agree. That said I think there’s definitely a market for quality. The Miele of the automotive world..? Doh... sorry, brain fart! No need to apologise!

Popped into the local OPC at the weekend with Mrs JC, to look at the plethora of 718s in stock, new or used. Surprised to see new 911s littering the showroom. The greeter - forgive me for not knowing actual job title - said that the dealer is really quiet. Given that a new base 718 worked out at £900 a month with 10% down, I'm not surprised. The other member of staff who appeared to say hello (both of whom were lovely btw) could't understand why Porsche is moving the 718 to EV for the next model and raised sales concerns about the decision. He also offered reassurance that the current 718 won't go anywhere anytime soon, although that seems to be wishful thinking from what I've read. Oddly neither staff member had read Oliver Blume's words and seemed shocked when I mentioned the business model comment, although they may just do a good game face. Overall, and perhaps excluding the 718, the products and experience reminded me of Audi dealerships circa 10-15 years ago.

I think the apparent lack of OPC staff’s knowledge on what Porsche have publicly announced regarding the 718 tells you quite a lot about what ails Porsche in this country. Either they are shockingly ill informed or do know and are feeding you a line.

elisered said: I think the apparent lack of OPC staff’s knowledge on what Porsche have publicly announced regarding the 718 tells you quite a lot about what ails Porsche in this country. Either they are shockingly ill informed or do know and are feeding you a line. The public facing staff are in a difficult position and I would expect they know about the announcement, the company will have informed staff because they know customers will mention it. I also think rather than spinning a line they are distracting you from the topic. Just like they will manoeuvre a customer outside if they look like they are about to kick-off in the showroom. A customer or potential customer gets 'managed' from the moment they walk in to when they walk out.

If your talking about the 718 ICE production ending in Sept everyone i spoke to in the OPC dealership knew about it and it was no secret or surprise

Inbox said: The public facing staff are in a difficult position If they’re salesmen and women, they’re in a really f king easy position. If they can still sell the few remaining ice slots everyone who walks through the door should be given every line to order the last of the ice cars or it’ll be the worst financial mistake of their lives. If they can’t, they should be in the phone to every mark they fobbed a 718 off to for a chance of a halo slot to get their car back in to resell second and make another hit of commission. Or… If they aren’t salesmen, and they’re just plebs who’ve lived through the good times and forgotten how to wake up in the morning and chase a deal (think every estate agent post covid) they better wake up pretty fast and figure out either how to sell or how to fill in a P45. I suspect min local is infested with the latter. I let the DP (who I very loosely know) know I’d sold my GT3 and was in the hunt for something new and to pass my details on to his sales team. Have I heard anything? Not a peep.

PRO5T said: Inbox said: The public facing staff are in a difficult position If they’re salesmen and women, they’re in a really f king easy position. If they can still sell the few remaining ice slots everyone who walks through the door should be given every line to order the last of the ice cars or it’ll be the worst financial mistake of their lives. If they can’t, they should be in the phone to every mark they fobbed a 718 off to for a chance of a halo slot to get their car back in to resell second and make another hit of commission. Or… If they aren’t salesmen, and they’re just plebs who’ve lived through the good times and forgotten how to wake up in the morning and chase a deal (think every estate agent post covid) they better wake up pretty fast and figure out either how to sell or how to fill in a P45. I suspect min local is infested with the latter. I let the DP (who I very loosely know) know I’d sold my GT3 and was in the hunt for something new and to pass my details on to his sales team. Have I heard anything? Not a peep. It isn't an easy position if you are dealing with the public and having defend an announcement made by the company when you have little more knowledge of it than Joe Public has and that applies to most of the people you meet in the dealer. It is also completely separate from how good or bad they happen to be at their jobs or how pissed off you are.

limpsfield said: Share price - down just over 60% in the past two years. It does have the cool ticker symbol "P911" It's was an interesting IPO in that they did not sell any ordinary shares outside of VW group and Porsche SE, only preferred shares that have no voting rights and only 10% of them reached the free market the rest taken up by various institutions, so the IPO didn't effect the owners control it just raised capital, nice work if you can get it.

They’re sales staff, they don’t have to defend anything. They just need to sell.

Interesting thread, have never had a Porsche as much prefer British sports cars. The OPC arrogance that has been discussed here doesn’t garner any goodwill when the tide goes out, quite a change in play if brand new 4RS and SRS are available to buy from your local OPC. I had submitted a spec for a new GT3 Touring last week and suprisingly a salesperson left me a voicemail on Sat about that to which I haven’t had a chance to return the call yet…I wonder how many E Macans they need me to buy first?! Edited by RSbandit on Monday 18th August 23:42

PRO5T said: They’re sales staff, they don’t have to defend anything. They just need to sell. Speaking to a service manager last year at an OPC , he admitted the sales staff had it too easy for too long and now they were going to have to go an sell the product rather than people queueing up to buy , he was so right.

It seems crazy they are not releasing a new ICE version of the Boxster/Cayman. I really can't see the majority of current owners ordering an EV.

130R said: It seems crazy they are not releasing a new ICE version of the Boxster/Cayman. I really can't see the majority of current owners ordering an EV. They're committed to the EV one unfortunately. During the development I am sure they realised that it probably wouldn't sell (they weren't the only manufacturer to realise this half way through development) but were so far in they had to complete it. I think it'll be a tough sell and I am sure they are thinking hard how to make a hybrid one. Lotus weren't so advanced with their next sportscar EV but had to stop and work out how to change it to a hybrid. Sports cars that are EVs are not desirable to the majority of buyers.

130R said: It seems crazy they are not releasing a new ICE version of the Boxster/Cayman. I really can't see the majority of current owners ordering an EV. I was discussing this over the weekend. Porsche can appear numb to why people actually buy their cars.

Just adding to the ICE conversation - was in my OPC last week and told their best-selling car BY FAR is the last of the petrol Macans - they have sold every single allocation and are desperate for more I hadn't realised (apologies) that the all-EV Cayenne was being announced this coming Dec and following a (6 month?) crossover period will be the only version available. I have of course put my name down for the very last of the petrol version...

Furbo said: 130R said: It seems crazy they are not releasing a new ICE version of the Boxster/Cayman. I really can't see the majority of current owners ordering an EV. I was discussing this over the weekend. Porsche can appear numb to why people actually buy their cars. I know this is a Porsche thread but just about every sports car/supercar manufacturer seemed to have been unaware of the reasons why people buy their cars. I does make me wonder how many actual car guys there are that work in the automotive sector.

I’m not sure that’s correct at all. The whole of Europe and a lot of the world had and have legislated against what they were building. You don’t invent a new car and put it to market in two years. The net zero (in my opinion) bulls t that all those countries signed up to left most manufacturers heading down the battery path. You can’t blame Porsche for following it. Where would Porsche be if they got to the new euro engine rules and didn’t have anything left to sell? A worse place than they are today! Porsche had the perfect plan in place to move to EV tech. It’s just a shame not many of us wanted to go on that journey with them. If (hopefully) the powers that be pull back on the net zero make believe, Porsche will have wasted billions in R&D on a whole company white elephant. TL;DR Porsche didn’t have a crystal ball and went down what looked at the time as the right path.

diametric123 said: Just adding to the ICE conversation - was in my OPC last week and told their best-selling car BY FAR is the last of the petrol Macans - they have sold every single allocation and are desperate for more I hadn't realised (apologies) that the all-EV Cayenne was being announced this coming Dec and following a (6 month?) crossover period will be the only version available. I have of course put my name down for the very last of the petrol version... One issue about the switch from ICE to EV, is that brands that were bought because of the engine like Porsche were always going to be at a disadvantage compared to those bought despite the engine, you could say that an EV powertrain transforms a humdrum hatchback or crossover giving it undreamt of levels of NVH but adding an EV powertrain to a Porsche robs it of one of the main selling points.

Furbo said: 130R said: It seems crazy they are not releasing a new ICE version of the Boxster/Cayman. I really can't see the majority of current owners ordering an EV. I was discussing this over the weekend. Porsche can appear numb to why people actually buy their cars. I think the rot started with the flat 4 in the 718, the trouble Porsche has is they are the equivalent of the halo division of a very large manufacturer but without the large volume of normal car sales to get their average emissions down. People also don't buy a Porsche to have a normal run of the mill car, they buy Porsche because they want something special. I think they are also wrestling with how to make an EV special, their answer seems to be make it hybrid.

PRO5T said: I’m not sure that’s correct at all. The whole of Europe and a lot of the world had and have legislated against what they were building. You don’t invent a new car and put it to market in two years. The net zero (in my opinion) bulls t that all those countries signed up to left most manufacturers heading down the battery path. You can’t blame Porsche for following it. Where would Porsche be if they got to the new euro engine rules and didn’t have anything left to sell? A worse place than they are today! Porsche had the perfect plan in place to move to EV tech. It’s just a shame not many of us wanted to go on that journey with them. If (hopefully) the powers that be pull back on the net zero make believe, Porsche will have wasted billions in R&D on a whole company white elephant. TL;DR Porsche didn’t have a crystal ball and went down what looked at the time as the right path. I agree ... it's just great shame that they have had some fairly substantial technical problems and have used sales of the cars people didn't want really want to buy to distort the allocation of cars that lots of enthusiasts did want to buy, for a bubble that had to end somewhere resulting in significant oversupply of the market. The rest we know ... finance costs / depreciation / service costs / bad feeling ... when they told us that they were the most profitable manufacturer in the World.

So just spoke to Porsche and as expected the GT3 slots are for existing customers …quelle suprise! They had a nearly new one in stock for £225k or a brand new GTS was available immediately for £169k!! Christ the pricing on those is bonkers now even if the car has a punchy 540hp.

ChrisW. said: PRO5T said: I’m not sure that’s correct at all. The whole of Europe and a lot of the world had and have legislated against what they were building. You don’t invent a new car and put it to market in two years. The net zero (in my opinion) bulls t that all those countries signed up to left most manufacturers heading down the battery path. You can’t blame Porsche for following it. Where would Porsche be if they got to the new euro engine rules and didn’t have anything left to sell? A worse place than they are today! Porsche had the perfect plan in place to move to EV tech. It’s just a shame not many of us wanted to go on that journey with them. If (hopefully) the powers that be pull back on the net zero make believe, Porsche will have wasted billions in R&D on a whole company white elephant. TL;DR Porsche didn’t have a crystal ball and went down what looked at the time as the right path. I agree ... it's just great shame that they have had some fairly substantial technical problems and have used sales of the cars people didn't want really want to buy to distort the allocation of cars that lots of enthusiasts did want to buy, for a bubble that had to end somewhere resulting in significant oversupply of the market. The rest we know ... finance costs / depreciation / service costs / bad feeling ... when they told us that they were the most profitable manufacturer in the World. Not to be contrary (and likely the truth will be somewhere in between) but another point of view is that they’ve pumped out so many halo model cars, and worked the “overs” stooges so well that you can walk into an OPC in the U.K. and buy a brand new RS at under list. Or a second hand one that once commanded over a £100k backhander to your OPC (because let’s be honest, all those early overs cars where a way for OPCs to print money) for a considerable discount on new never mind an “over”. Porsche themselves flooded the market and continue to do so while they can. If the engine regs continue as is, they won’t be able to sell the 4.0 N/A GT engines for much longer so it’ll continue to be; Brand new cars for stooges Stooges hand back halo cars for brand new cars Brand new cars become “overs” Old halo cars are handed back for overs cars Market for previous halo cars tumbles And don’t expect the merry go round to stop yet! We’ve still got to come; 992.2 GT2 RS 992.2 GT3 convertable/speedster 992.2 GT3 RS 992.2 Dakar 992.2 S/T or R or whatever road model 992.2 Sport Classic Any number of Porsche Heritage Models Gotta get those 4.0s out while they can!

PRO5T said: Brand new cars for stooges Stooges hand back halo cars for brand new cars Brand new cars become “overs” Old halo cars are handed back for overs cars Market for previous halo cars tumbles This looks about right ... so better to buy an earlier model that exemplifies Porsche technology without all the nanny aids and electronic gizmo's, that was probably built in much lower numbers and will be easier to look after by the existing specialist service network ??

ChrisW. said: This looks about right ... so better to buy an earlier model that exemplifies Porsche technology without all the nanny aids and electronic gizmo's, that was probably built in much lower numbers and will be easier to look after by the existing specialist service network ?? Well Chris, it’s a tough decision to make and one I’m struggling with. For someone who wants no nasty surprises, I think the collapsed halo car is the best buy (actually £ for £ a 718 GT4 takes some beating and will hold for a long while yet but that’s another question), pay the warranty, do a few track days and keep it OPC serviced and bite your lip. Or, Buy a wonderful older Mezger, work with some of the best and most enthusiastic independents but accept that you’ll spend at least the warranty and servicing cost of a modern car in keeping it tip top. Relish in modding it in any way you think you’d prefer, suspension, drive train mods, interior restorations. I’m torn between the two ideas but it’s the older cars that tug at the heartstrings, if I had a GT4 RS in the garage-what would I tinker with all winter?!

ChrisW. said: This looks about right ... so better to buy an earlier model that exemplifies Porsche technology without all the nanny aids and electronic gizmo's, that was probably built in much lower numbers and will be easier to look after by the existing specialist service network ?? Precisely this Chris. Let those that want to play their OPC's avaricious games, play them, there's more enjoyment and fun to be had with Porsche's back catalogue IMO.

Slippydiff said: Precisely this Chris. Let those that want to play their OPC's avaricious games, play them, there's more enjoyment and fun to be had with Porsche's back catalogue IMO. Or jump in at the right moment and enjoy depreciation free motoring in some of Porsches finest knowing that someone else has paid for the privilege. A free lunch in the Mezger world takes a lot more effort and largely exists if you don’t price your own hourly rate!

PRO5T said: Or jump in at the right moment and enjoy depreciation free motoring in some of Porsches finest knowing that someone else has paid for the privilege. A free lunch in the Mezger world takes a lot more effort and largely exists if you don’t price your own hourly rate! A Mezger wouldn't feature in my back catalogue. A fantastic engine, no doubt about that, but a fantastic engine for anything other than an early Sunday morning hoons and trackday use ? Not so convinced these days. I know that's considered heresy around these parts, but my rose-tinted Mezger glasses went limpid some time ago. Unfortunately there's nothing in Porsche's current lineup that would see me knocking at their door, or dancing to their warranty tune. If you want something special and/or unique, you won't find it in your local OPC showroom. As someone said to me many years ago : "It's all but impossible to buy your perfect car, you have to build it". Which is kind of ironic when Ferry or Ferdinand were credited with saying "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself"...

Inbox said: Furbo said: 130R said: It seems crazy they are not releasing a new ICE version of the Boxster/Cayman. I really can't see the majority of current owners ordering an EV. I was discussing this over the weekend. Porsche can appear numb to why people actually buy their cars. I think the rot started with the flat 4 in the 718, . That was one of the examples I used. It was almost as if Porsche thought that fast was the only metric people cared about.

Slippydiff said: PRO5T said: Or jump in at the right moment and enjoy depreciation free motoring in some of Porsches finest knowing that someone else has paid for the privilege. A free lunch in the Mezger world takes a lot more effort and largely exists if you don’t price your own hourly rate! A Mezger wouldn't feature in my back catalogue. A fantastic engine, no doubt about that, but a fantastic engine for anything other than an early Sunday morning hoons and trackday use ? Not so convinced these days. I know that's considered heresy around these parts, but my rose-tinted Mezger glasses went limpid some time ago. Unfortunately there's nothing in Porsche's current lineup that would see me knocking at their door, or dancing to their warranty tune. If you want something special and/or unique, you won't find it in your local OPC showroom. As someone said to me many years ago : "It's all but impossible to buy your perfect car, you have to build it". Which is kind of ironic when Ferry or Ferdinand were credited with saying "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself"... And it was supposedly Ferry Porsche himself who specified the 911 3.2 Celebration to recognise the 250,000th 911 in 1988. But I have included a photo of the Porsche marketing strategy for the year ... the lithoprinted pack that comes with it features only one 911 ... the rest are a variety of 944 and 928 cars ... amazingly this was left by some kind soul beneath my 944 Turbo Cup at last Sunday's Burley in Wharfedale car show !! Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 19th August 17:15 Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 19th August 17:18

I think you make a very valid point about GT4’s 2020 manuals on OPC up for circa £77k for a 5 year old car makes 2023 models up around £80-£90k looking good value just imo obviously The fact they stopped production of this fabulous NA 4.0L car will now see them becoming rarer and only a handful on the Porsche website for sale Production around covid & post was reduced with parts being a problem so prices maybe at an inflection point and what a lot of car you get vs the prices of a new porsche Well Chris, it’s a tough decision to make and one I’m struggling with. For someone who wants no nasty surprises, I think the collapsed halo car is the best buy (actually £ for £ a 718 GT4 takes some beating and will hold for a long while yet but that’s another question), pay the warranty, do a few track days and keep it OPC serviced and bite your lip. Or, Buy a wonderful older Mezger, work with some of the best and most enthusiastic independents but accept that you’ll spend at least the warranty and servicing cost of a modern car in keeping it tip top. Relish in modding it in any way you think you’d prefer, suspension, drive train mods, interior restorations. I’m torn between the two ideas but it’s the older cars that tug at the heartstrings, if I had a GT4 RS in the garage-what would I tinker with all winter?! [/quote]

Don’t I know it! From the same sun lounger I’m sat in now, two years ago I was offered the frozen berry ex press car. At the time it was six months old with a few more miles than usual (but still not many-and it hadn’t had its prep work done) but very high spec. They offered it to me for £81.5k, I think it would be up for more today if still mint. Had something daft like 4 years warranty in it too.

PRO5T said: Don’t I know it! From the same sun lounger I’m sat in now, two years ago I was offered the frozen berry ex press car. At the time it was six months old with a few more miles than usual (but still not many-and it hadn’t had its prep work done) but very high spec. They offered it to me for £81.5k, I think it would be up for more today if still mint. Had something daft like 4 years warranty in it too. Wasn't that the one that "VolksWizard", the YTuber, bought and subsequently rejected due to mismatched paint? He's a trader but claims to have bought it as a private seller, for the Warranty, and then rejected it.

Correct, yes. In reality, the paint miss match wasn’t actually all that bad-you had to really catch it in a certain light to be able to see it. The crap wheel refurb was much more offensive! The guy who ended up buying it was an ex paint sprayer and it never bothered him enough to sort it, the car won a local concourse to me and the guys I use for paint could have sorted it in a weekend for not much money. I used to see the car at some local events but he’s sold it now-No idea where it went. The YouTuber either made a lot of it to get out of buying it (buyers remorse?) or to try and generate some content. Was it perfect? No. What it easily sorted? Yes.

Not convinced Porsche has been as badly mismanaged as implied here. The EV thing ultimately isn't Porsche's doing, that's largely EU legislators. Did the company push too hard, too soon into EVs? That's obviously how it looks now. But contrary to the OP, that decision will have been substantially taken well before 2022 in order that models like the Taycan, Macan EV and 718 EV (delayed but mostly finished for years now and originally intended to be on sale by now) can exist today. So, those decisions were taken long ago. Product planning with the entire industry in flux is a nightmare and all the big, established brands are taking punts and then adjusting on the fly. Trying to predict five to 10 years hence what the market and legislative environment was going to look like back in the late 20-teens was not a science and nobody really knew how it would play out. Porsche decided to be progressive and it has turned out to be the wrong call. More to the point, while Porsche's sales are down versus the 2023, the company is still massively more successful in 2025 than prior to the modern era from 9x6 onwards, incomparably so. 250k-plus units and whatever profit Porsche makes this year will still look spectacular compared to the vast majority of the company's history. It's not that catastrophic. Try, say, Intel, if you want a current example of actual corporate catastrophe and clear mismanagement! Also don't think complaints about treat traditional customers badly really land, either. For sure, traditional customers have been pushed to the margins. But check out sales volumes of, I dunno, a 996.2 RS if you want a feel for how big a business traditional customers supported. Ultimately, the whole circus with GT car allocations, flipping and overs is much more down to a new and rather avaricious customer base than anything Porsche did. I think people underestimate how finely balanced the situation with GT is / was. Sure, Porsche could have ramped up production even further. But they did ramp up product dramatically from 991 onwards and even more latterly, really, really dramatically. The risk of going even further in that direction is the whole house of cards collapsing. Much of the demand for the cars was underpinned by the perception of scarcity and difficulty to access, which in turn meant that people bought assuming they wouldn't make a loss and might well make money. If Porsche had been building enough that literally anyone could simply order one, there's every chance that demand could have gone down substantially, and Porsche would have been left having made a large investment to increase production to really high levels, but not nearly enough customers to fullfill that. Sure, the company has cashed in to an extent. But the s tshow largely isn't their doing, it's down to the behaviour of the new customer base. Which ties into the earlier point. Sticking with the traditional customer base would have meant a dramatically smaller business. Maybe things will get really bad at Porsche. But personally, I don't think the overall picture is that bad. They're going through an adjustment period right now and at least until very, very recently, still offered a portfolio of the most appealing driver's cars from a big brand. The demise of the 718 4.0 cars is definitely a major loss in that regard. But I wouldn't be shocked to see an ICE version of the 718 EV. Looking at the test cars at the Ring etc, the 718 EV is clearly built on the 992 platform and the EV powertrain is packed behind the seats in a similar fashion to the trad ICE powertrain (ie, it's not a skateboard battery), so doing an ICE version might be reasonably viable. Not sure what the code is for the next 911 (994?), but will certainly be interesting to see how Porsche deals with that. A hybrid NA GT3 a la 918 Spyder but with a manual option could be interesting, but I admit it's harder to see the mainstream sports cars being hugely appealing. The "hybrid" GTS doesn't bode all that well. That said, Walliser or whoever was saying a couple of years back that some aspects of emissions regs were actually favouring larger capacity engines (somewhat borne out by the 3.6 in the GTS), so we'll have to wait and see. A lot hinges on the availability of manual boxes for me, personally and it's unclear what the future is there. Edited by 3436cm3 on Thursday 21st August 10:37

I think the only "traditional" customers that should feel hard done by with regards to modern GT cars are those that did buy the 996 and 997.1/2 GT cars, given the levels of sales they should/could have been looked after. I think if you'd been a buyer of those cars from your OPC but then got the brush off when the market caught fire it would leave a bad taste in your mouth.

3436cm3 said: Not convinced Porsche has been as badly mismanaged as implied here. The EV thing ultimately isn't Porsche's doing, that's largely EU legislators. Did the company push too hard, too soon into EVs? That's obviously how it looks now. But contrary to the OP, that decision will have been substantially taken well before 2022 in order that models like the Taycan, Macan EV and 718 EV (delayed but mostly finished for years now and originally intended to be on sale by now) can exist today. So, those decisions were taken long ago. Product planning with the entire industry in flux is a nightmare and all the big, established brands are taking punts and then adjusting on the fly. Trying to predict five to 10 years hence what the market and legislative environment was going to look like back in the late 20-teens was not a science and nobody really knew how it would play out. Porsche decided to be progressive and it has turned out to be the wrong call. More to the point, while Porsche's sales are down versus the 2023, the company is still massively more successful in 2025 than prior to the modern era from 9x6 onwards, incomparably so. 250k-plus units and whatever profit Porsche makes this year will still look spectacular compared to the vast majority of the company's history. It's not that catastrophic. Try, say, Intel, if you want a current example of actual corporate catastrophe and clear mismanagement! Also don't think complaints about treat traditional customers badly really land, either. For sure, traditional customers have been pushed to the margins. But check out sales volumes of, I dunno, a 996.2 RS if you want a feel for how big a business traditional customers supported. Ultimately, the whole circus with GT car allocations, flipping and overs is much more down to a new and rather avaricious customer base than anything Porsche did. I think people underestimate how finely balanced the situation with GT is / was. Sure, Porsche could have ramped up production even further. But they did ramp up product dramatically from 991 onwards and even more latterly, really, really dramatically. The risk of going even further in that direction is the whole house of cards collapsing. Much of the demand for the cars was underpinned by the perception of scarcity and difficulty to access, which in turn meant that people bought assuming they wouldn't make a loss and might well make money. If Porsche had been building enough that literally anyone could simply order one, there's every chance that demand could have gone down substantially, and Porsche would have been left having made a large investment to increase production to really high levels, but not nearly enough customers to fullfill that. Sure, the company has cashed in to an extent. But the s tshow largely isn't their doing, it's down to the behaviour of the new customer base. Which ties into the earlier point. Sticking with the traditional customer base would have meant a dramatically smaller business. Maybe things will get really bad at Porsche. But personally, I don't think the overall picture is that bad. They're going through an adjustment period right now and at least until very, very recently, still offered a portfolio of the most appealing driver's cars from a big brand. The demise of the 718 4.0 cars is definitely a major loss in that regard. But I wouldn't be shocked to see an ICE version of the 718 EV. Looking at the test cars at the Ring etc, the 718 EV is clearly built on the 992 platform and the EV powertrain is packed behind the seats in a similar fashion to the trad ICE powertrain (ie, it's not a skateboard battery), so doing an ICE version might be reasonably viable. Not sure what the code is for the next 911 (994?), but will certainly be interesting to see how Porsche deals with that. A hybrid NA GT3 a la 918 Spyder but with a manual option could be interesting, but I admit it's harder to see the mainstream sports cars being hugely appealing. The "hybrid" GTS doesn't bode all that well. That said, Walliser or whoever was saying a couple of years back that some aspects of emissions regs were actually favouring larger capacity engines (somewhat borne out by the 3.6 in the GTS), so we'll have to wait and see. A lot hinges on the availability of manual boxes for me, personally and it's unclear what the future is there. Edited by 3436cm3 on Thursday 21st August 10:37 I think I would agree with that. I think Porsche will do just fine once past the current bump. They have executed about as well as is possible. There are plenty who have made a complete dogs dinner of the EV transition, which is surely the most complex transition ever for a car manufacturer. They also offer a varied product range so should be able to flex as required. I incidentally don't think Porsche cares that deeply about the Boxster and Cayman so if they want to experiment a bit with EVness then a good place to do it. And I'm sure I've said it before, if they turn out to be 992-based EVs that (most importantly) look a bit like a 992 then they might sell well. Not too many EVs around that look like a 992, which is easily Porsche's best looking car. Maybe Ring times matter but what probably matters more is looking sporty and successful on the commute and if you can do that on the back of some tax breaks, how bad.

The challenge for Porsche and a lot of these premium car companies is the price of the product. They're too expensive. When customers in the US are baulking at the prices of these cars, plus tariffs, you know the future is not looking that bright. The Chinese and Koreans can build fast cars at a fraction of the price of a Porsche EV or Hybrid, and they have the tech for when you don't want to drive fast, like autonomous driving, remote control, etc. When one goes to car meets, like Pistonheads, Goodwood and others, you can tell whether a brand is exclusive or not. Porsches aren't, they're everywhere - millions of them. That Porsche has managed to keep these cars relevant today is an incredible feat in my view, especially at the price point. The future is not looking good for Porsche because it's behind the curve. Legislators have killed the car and inadvertently given the Chinese and Koreans a leg up. I can't see Porsche serving long-term in its current guise.

But they are doing a very good job with keeping ICE alive in spite of all the regulatory challenges and most people want ICE. The ICE fines are not that important to them either as they can bury that in the price. I think some of the most impressive feats by Porsche is keeping the 911 relatively light. The weight increase since the 996 is only somewhere around 50-100kg. And if you want a 911 or something like a 911, there is only one place to get them from. The rest I can agree, that's daily driver fodder where they have less stickiness.

maz8062 said: The future is not looking good for Porsche because it's behind the curve. How is that?

3436cm3 said: Not convinced Porsche has been as badly mismanaged as implied here. The EV thing ultimately isn't Porsche's doing, that's largely EU legislators. Did the company push too hard, too soon into EVs? That's obviously how it looks now. But contrary to the OP, that decision will have been substantially taken well before 2022 in order that models like the Taycan, Macan EV and 718 EV (delayed but mostly finished for years now and originally intended to be on sale by now) can exist today. So, those decisions were taken long ago. Product planning with the entire industry in flux is a nightmare and all the big, established brands are taking punts and then adjusting on the fly. Trying to predict five to 10 years hence what the market and legislative environment was going to look like back in the late 20-teens was not a science and nobody really knew how it would play out. Porsche decided to be progressive and it has turned out to be the wrong call. More to the point, while Porsche's sales are down versus the 2023, the company is still massively more successful in 2025 than prior to the modern era from 9x6 onwards, incomparably so. 250k-plus units and whatever profit Porsche makes this year will still look spectacular compared to the vast majority of the company's history. It's not that catastrophic. Try, say, Intel, if you want a current example of actual corporate catastrophe and clear mismanagement! Also don't think complaints about treat traditional customers badly really land, either. For sure, traditional customers have been pushed to the margins. But check out sales volumes of, I dunno, a 996.2 RS if you want a feel for how big a business traditional customers supported. Ultimately, the whole circus with GT car allocations, flipping and overs is much more down to a new and rather avaricious customer base than anything Porsche did. I think people underestimate how finely balanced the situation with GT is / was. Sure, Porsche could have ramped up production even further. But they did ramp up product dramatically from 991 onwards and even more latterly, really, really dramatically. The risk of going even further in that direction is the whole house of cards collapsing. Much of the demand for the cars was underpinned by the perception of scarcity and difficulty to access, which in turn meant that people bought assuming they wouldn't make a loss and might well make money. If Porsche had been building enough that literally anyone could simply order one, there's every chance that demand could have gone down substantially, and Porsche would have been left having made a large investment to increase production to really high levels, but not nearly enough customers to fullfill that. Sure, the company has cashed in to an extent. But the s tshow largely isn't their doing, it's down to the behaviour of the new customer base. Which ties into the earlier point. Sticking with the traditional customer base would have meant a dramatically smaller business. Maybe things will get really bad at Porsche. But personally, I don't think the overall picture is that bad. They're going through an adjustment period right now and at least until very, very recently, still offered a portfolio of the most appealing driver's cars from a big brand. The demise of the 718 4.0 cars is definitely a major loss in that regard. But I wouldn't be shocked to see an ICE version of the 718 EV. Looking at the test cars at the Ring etc, the 718 EV is clearly built on the 992 platform and the EV powertrain is packed behind the seats in a similar fashion to the trad ICE powertrain (ie, it's not a skateboard battery), so doing an ICE version might be reasonably viable. Not sure what the code is for the next 911 (994?), but will certainly be interesting to see how Porsche deals with that. A hybrid NA GT3 a la 918 Spyder but with a manual option could be interesting, but I admit it's harder to see the mainstream sports cars being hugely appealing. The "hybrid" GTS doesn't bode all that well. That said, Walliser or whoever was saying a couple of years back that some aspects of emissions regs were actually favouring larger capacity engines (somewhat borne out by the 3.6 in the GTS), so we'll have to wait and see. A lot hinges on the availability of manual boxes for me, personally and it's unclear what the future is there. Edited by 3436cm3 on Thursday 21st August 10:37 You are correct that in the short term Porsche succeeded in pumping their sales volumes ... but hardly at the hands of avaricious customers. It was OPC's that retained the bulk of the margin whilst their "avaricious" customers offset their losses on other cars against the luxury of on-demand halo cars that they should not use ... before cycling them back to their OPC for the OPC to make the uplift. That this has now resulted in an over-supply whilst simultaneously alienating their legacy customer base is a rare trick ... there were 469 x UK 992 GT3RS in the years '23 and '24 with another 200 to follow in '25 ? Who isn't waiting for these prices to collapse ... whilst many legacy customers have bought another brand ... ? Time will prove this one way or the other .... P.S. I agree that P have tried very hard to keep weights down ... but a 992 C2 is around 215Kg's heavier than the 996 C2 ... Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 23 August 21:11

I do not think Porsche is a sports car company. They are diluting like BMW and producing ordinary cars, which I don't think is necessarily a cause for concern.

ihatecars said: I do not think Porsche is a sports car company. They are diluting like BMW and producing ordinary cars, which I don't think is necessarily a cause for concern. You could have a point there. Merc and BMW have dragged themselves down to Audi's level to sell more cars and are no longer aspirational brands. Neither is Porsche these days. What are the aspirational brands these days? Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls-Royce? Lamborghini maybe, despite being in the VW Group. None of those has lost what made them truly special.

Porsche begins search for new CEO: https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-poli... It's long overdue, called for this in an article months ago.

Maxym said: You could have a point there. Merc and BMW have dragged themselves down to Audi's level to sell more cars and are no longer aspirational brands. Neither is Porsche these days. What are the aspirational brands these days? Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls-Royce? Lamborghini maybe, despite being in the VW Group. None of those has lost what made them truly special. The Porsche sports cars are still aspiration to a large cohort (at least in my estimation). If not then I guess you’d be in amongst the most privileged out there. I’d guess that Ferrari is still broadly aspiration, perhaps a bit more out of reach than Porsche. Bentley - I’m not sure really. Rolls-Royce has become vulgar and Lambos are so marmite. Personally I don’t like Lambos and find the Urus to be the very epitome of vulgar. A couple of the Mums at my kids school have them. Clearly I would give a nod of approval rather than externalise my real opinion on them!

Wills2 said: I think the only "traditional" customers that should feel hard done by with regards to modern GT cars are those that did buy the 996 and 997.1/2 GT cars, given the levels of sales they should/could have been looked after. I think if you'd been a buyer of those cars from your OPC but then got the brush off when the market caught fire it would leave a bad taste in your mouth. Your not wrong there. that will be me among others. Long term GT3 buyer here. I only got given the bums rush by my OPC after the 991GT3/981GT4 generation cars. Been royally f ked about ever since.

I got the bums rush after the Cayman R / 981GT4 purchases from Leeds ... then they wouldn't sell me a 718GT4 etc ... which continued to very recently when I mischeivously asked about a 992.1 GT3RS as an outgoing model ... (I was then told that they wouldn't sell a 992.1 GT3RS without PCCB's !!).

ChrisW. said: I got the bums rush after the Cayman R / 981GT4 purchases from Leeds ... then they wouldn't sell me a 718GT4 etc ... which continued to very recently when I mischeivously asked about a 992.1 GT3RS as an outgoing model ... (I was then told that they wouldn't sell a 992.1 GT3RS without PCCB's !!). Well at least you know what it would be like buying a car from a 7 year old.