B5S4 Turbo in 996

Hope this isn't a repost, but I just saw this. Very cool. Considering last year my son and myself completely torn down his B5S4 donor engine, completely rebuild it and it has about 400 ft-lbs of torque, it sure would be fun in a 996. Just another option. What these guys claim to do with the wiring and DME is very interesting, all plug and play. https://www.renn27.com/ .renn27.com%2F&v=oF1T8C_T--k

Very cool. The B5 S4 2.7 is a great platform. Makes much more sense to me than the LS option. Never understood that one.

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For the 500WHP naturally aspirated target, the LS is the only option. Maybe that helps to clarify for you. I love the Audi option for the street though, the electronics compatibility and these guys doing the work for a P&P swap is awesome.

These guys were at my local C&C this past summer. He had the only other 996 and we discussed the motor setup. Very cool swap!

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I have always loved the B5 S4s, one of my favorite cars growing up. That being said I would say that swapping out an M96 for a 2.7 is a somewhat lateral move in reliability, they may not catastrophically explode but they are notoriously unreliable. The LS is better in every way in terms of price, power, and reliability.

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Nope, that doesn�t clarify at all. In fact, it seems a waste (of a good chassis) but to each their own.

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From what perspective does this swap make more sense? Cause they are both German? LSx is more reliable, weighs less, and will make power cheaper. Its a swap so skies the limit just curious about what makes the 2.7 better?

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A waste... of what ?

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Yeah, I am trying to get a straight answer here but I am not sure what the reason is. Like I am down for any sort of swap, its your car, have fun but I would like to know why the 2.7 is "better." Its a cool swap but those things are already cramped in a sedan.

Not really a question of better for me - I like that more options will keep the cars on the road for a long time and keep them in hands of people who like to tinker. I like the Audi idea for the turbo power flexibility and the aftermarket support certainly smokes that for the M96, so I'm all for it. Not everyone wants to put 25K or more down for a rebuild to net 320WHP... For me - thats an atrocious value proposition. Dyno graph of an FSI 3.8

This Audi-powered 996 is a tight package and is keeping with the Porsche tradition...( Porsche has used Audi power as far back as 914-924, but never in 911 ) Ferdinand Porsche was the founder of VW, and of Porsche ...His Grandson Ferdinand Piech was the head of Audi and also VW , and also claimed Porsche was also his company, ( although he was not head of Porsche ) ..The Porsche/Piech Families owned all the companies and still do...ie. Porsche , Audi, VW, Skoda, SEAT, CUPRA, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Ducati..Ferdinand Porsche's third generation descendants Porsche/Piech are head of the companies are are majority shareholder voting wrights.. The Audi V6 Turbo can also be found in the Panamera, Cayenne, and Macon.. The 2.7T is a very strong/dependable engine ..I know of no big issues with reliability and the small issues are easily fixed by routine maintenance. The rubber timing belt needs to be replaced every 60k miles and is common practice on any timing belt and is easily done.. the timing belt also drives the water pump which also needs to be replaced at 60k...These are the two things that people say cause it to be unreliable when in fact it's because many people fail to replace them in a timely manner... This kit price at $11k would be an attractive alternative to people who hate the m96 because they don't have the ability to repair/rebuild it, or don't want to spend the $$$ it takes ... Once done you would have 450HP and an endless supply of $1500 engines to rely on..... The big brother RS 2.9T is another good alternative. In factory form it has 450 ft/lbs of big fat flat torque from 1900-5500 RPM and 450hp up to 6700rpm and much more if you want to turn it up.. Many parts are shared between Audi and Porsche. Infact the Boxster 5 speed manual has both the Audi and Porsche bolt patterns and the 2.7T will bolt up straight away to the Boxster 5 speed no adaptor needed ... One of the best things about this package is that it is plug-n-play, that is huge...with the V6T being 4 inches shorter It means no cutting of the rear body structure and the weight is moved slightly forward and 50lbs lighter which will help in handling, but is also more top heavy like the LS which will hurt handling... The other good thing about being plug-n-play is that no wires need to be cut or spliced and all electronics function as designed, that is another huge plus... That said if I was 30 years younger I would be installing Twin Turbo's on the Boxster 2.7 and seeing what else would be needed to make some cost efficient/reliable 600 hp....500ft/lbs torque...

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Good points about the history of Porsche and Audi. I will say in my time working at a shop the biggest issue with 2.7 is so many are beat to **** because they have been passed around. A stock, well-maintained 2.7 is rare to find these days. Another big issue with them is it was either service mode or engine out for a lot of work and I am not sure how that translates to the rear of a 911. A quick google search says an LSX longblock is lighter than a 2.7 which I believe the lsx is lighter than an M96 even if I remember correctly. With the 2.7 you also have to be on top of the timing service as the belts like to go, even before service time along with water pumps and idlers like to go on those. Turbos are notorious for going bad if not maintained religiously, ask me how I know lol. I honestly don't think a 2.7 and cost-effective are terms I would use together at least compared to an lsx. We had a guy build one in our shop and it was not cheap.

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Engine out repairs on 996 is common as you know...( Audi service mode sucks..lol) .. This package looks to be no different as far as engine out goes, two motor bolts, 6 trans mount bolts, the crossmember , hoses and wiring....done...R&R in 4-6 hours if you are on your game... LS engine is 50lbs lighter but the COG weight is further back and higher up... Timing belt/water pump/idler are no different from any other model that has these....chains are more durable but cause more metallic debris as they wear and are more costly/difficult to replace.. Turbo bearings on these are just like all Turbo's, good clean oil supply is needed.. $1500 2.7T motors are everywhere although I agree an LS can be found for $500 ,, and OEM Chevy parts cost less than OEM Audi parts,,, but the gap closes considerably with aftermarket parts.... and high end parts cost the same whether Chevy or Audi...ie.. custom rods,pistons, crankshaft custom work ,cost the same whether Chevy or Audi ( except that buying 6 will cost less than buying 8 )

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Like I said, to each their own. The value proposition is actually very easy to understand. The 3.8 track prepared engine is more like 345 hp without any exhaust enhancements. Instead of getting a 997.2 it is a simple decision. And when I elected to have my engine rebuilt by FSI, there was a minimal wait list. I suspect people new to porsche don�t have a problem with the ls swap option. Why not just get a corvette? The cool thing about air cooled Porsches is the ability to swap up the platform. I had a 73 t that I put a hot rod 3.0 rebuild by Frans Blam racing. Now that was a handful until brakes and suspension were upgraded as well. With the water cooled, due to the electronics it is a harder proposition. That is why the B5 S4 option seems to be a really good alternative. I don�t know where reliability is an issue as they are really stout engines, if treated to the recommended maintenance and you don�t get too greedy with boost. I was the Audi Quattro Club president in MN and saw many a quick S4 during that time. The biggest challenge was getting them to stop! Lastly, learning to drive a 73 fast you learn to understand momentum and its advantages. Personally, I have no desire to have 500 hp in my 996 as I find most of the drivers with high hp are a point and shoot style of drivers. I prefer the twisties to make up time.

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Nah, I don't get it. Oh cool - can you post the dyno graph ? 345WHP would be higher than any of the 4.0 FSI motors than I have seen posted. Please share. The "why not just get the car the engine came in" argument is so dumb. The 996 chassis is great, the engine that comes in the car is not up to the task of getting all it has to give. Well, I suck at driving so I'll take all the HP I can get. The Audi motor is a great option, I think the VR6 could be another really good option and people are already doing K Series which seems like it may have a lot of potential. For a track build, with an aim of max reliable horsepower, aftermarket support and parts availability - the LS is the only option.

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A VR6 would be cool, they sound good as well. Dunno what you would have to do to get it to make enough power for it to be worth it though. Like my R32 was rated at 240 hp back in the day, feel like you would need to build it or go boost.

I didn't watch the video yet but unless they made it mid-engined I assume they still had to turn the engine around backwards. The plug-n-play sounds nice but the engine is still meant to face the other way. I know the LS swaps wrestle with that.

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Here are some pictures of the upper and lower oil pan. It has more baffles than any other OEM oil pan I have ever seen. Looks like the Audi engineers were sure trying to keep the oil from sloshing in every direction, but I'm positive it can be improved upon..

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Better or worse is certainly debatable and depends on what the objective is. For example, basically keeping the electronics the same and it being plug and play in that regard is a huge plus in my book and speaks to the compatibility. And yes, keeping within the Porsche/Audi family for me has merit. I come from the air-cooled school where swapping a higher HP engine into a light chassis was common. So this speaks to that. It is nice to know there are alternatives if you are interested in swapping an engine either out of necessity or elective.

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You are so right but those of us that do are extremely pleased with the result. I asked Jake if the 3.8 stage II Track Performer could keep up with a 997 and he emphatically said absolutely. That is all I needed to hear. I actually don�t know the actual HP my 3.8 puts out but all I can say I have not been passed by a 997 on track. Back to the OP.

Good video from Renn27. I've had 9 Audis ranging from the 4.2, 2.8, 3.0T, 2.7T and 2.0T. All good engines. The 2.0 needed software to give it some *****, which we did and it has proven to be a durable engine on my wife's A5. I have no clue on what it takes to make these engines track dependable. Looking forward to following Renn27 guys, as well as the tesla swap guy, Bayside's K24, Dejeepers mezger, Jason's LS swap, not to mention the next round of solutions coming from FSI/LN. Sure, the more options the better depending on your end game.

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A 12v VR6 can be huffed up to 400 crank HP quite easily using only a headspacer. 600 crank HP is possible with mods, mainly low compression pistons and upgrade rods. Some builders get 1000 crank HP tough I doubt the durability at that kind of power. I've been driving one with 8 pounds of boost for 270 crank HP on a stock bottom end with a mk4 MLS headgasket (10.5 compression) for years.

This is great. Before my Turbo fell into my lap I was searching for a 996 with a bad engine to do a 2.7T swap into. Heck, if I ever manage to pop the motor in my Turbo I might even consider replacing it with a built 2.7T.

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More like $30-40k. Here's a FSI 4.0 on the most optimistic dyno out there. Love the weird swaps. For a modified street car I'd much rather have something like the video in the OP. My white whale is the weird air cooled car out there with the 13BTT in it. If that thing ever comes back up for sale..

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I think the end goal should be to NOT TELL IT WAS ANY DIFFERENT than a regular 996 Carrera... To just be able to get in and start up and drive and every thing feel and function as the Factory designed 996 did when new, IE. all gauges/accessories work as factory, easily diagnosable/repairable as factory , wiring diagram available if ever needed, factory fault codes ect.. The driving experience should be exactly the same, same handling, same NVH , Just more power when the go pedal is pressed and a $1500 replacement engine that is readily available.. I know this is a "tall order" when so much is changed from factory design, but this package has the best chance ( being a third cousin) at being "undetectable"..( except for boost in power, and low cost of replacement) ..

It bugs me when I hear someone say "unreliable" when describing the M96 in order to pitch their wares. Marketing 101: Tear Down the Competition to Sell Your Schtuff. For 10K I sure hope it includes the engine.

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They are the same ones that have never heard of the hundreds of thousands of cracked heads on the LS engines.. My immediate family has two LS-powered vehicles... now at a 50% catastrophic failure rate for the two.... Google "Castech head cracks"......

I really enjoy my 996. The noises it makes, the way it drives and handles, the way it puts a smile on my face. It has a water cooled flat six engine in the back, which is no small part of the overall experience, and in my case is a big part of the reason why I bought it in the first place. It's a 911. 911s have flat sixes hanging our of their butts. I think all these engine swaps are really cool. I don't have a bad word to say about them. I follow the threads and enjoy the creativity inherent in taking on such a thing. But I don't want one. I want my 996 targa to have a flat six engine hanging out of its butt. I don't think I should come under fire in a 996 forum for wanting that. My particular flat six needs some lovin' and I'm seeing to it. I don't think I should come under fire for that either.

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You do realize Raby has a YT page devoted to all the ways your M96 is going to fail right ?

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Who�s that? 😉 I would argue that all cars have list of �issues�. Although nothing really comes to recent memory as much as the over-hyped IMS issue. Yes it�s a problem but was it as big a deal as we were led to believe? Probably not. I would also argue that the 2.7 probably has a list of issues as well. They�re just cheaper to fix and may not grenade the engine like an IMS would. I�ll be the first to acknowledge that I�m also biased since I�m rebuilding one currently. I�ve got an intimate relationship with the M96 and have only seen how fracking amazing these engines are, EVEN when they�re abused. My 996 had 102k Florida miles and was used as an Uber Eats car for some time. Aside from the interior being wasted, the engine was still running strong. I just rebuilt it cuz that�s just what I do.

Sure the LS makes 500hp but a lot of people do not care for the V8 with the 911 gearing. The 2.7tt doesn�t take much to make 500tq and would destroy a LS. Only V8 I�ve enjoyed driving is in a bmw E91/2 or whatever that chassis code is. Anything American feels like trash to me. Just my personal preferences besides the fact of a k04 2.7tt would leave a LS behind so quickly

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On a track, full tilt, 15 minutes into a session on a 90 degree day. I think you are wrong, super wrong actually on who is still on track and running quicker times And my money is where my mouth is.

Let�s get the owners of this 996 to run against a mullet machine on the track for 15 minutes 🏁

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In. Thompson

I'd like to see all of them for a long two day weekend at Thompson to test their durability and power delivery. Most of all to drive them. LS swap 2.7t swap K24 swap Tesla swap 4.0 fsi 996 3.6 I am not a video or social media guy, but it would be worth it to film and give impressions. Probably be a 1 million plus viewer video. You talk about fun...

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What about me . I already know @hbdunn would be faster then a of us in his 3.4l. Btw Z and me will be at Thompson 6/11and i would stay for the 12th if anyone else wants to step up a build a car for the comparison

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I can't understand the level of dislike going on here. I've seen this 2.7T swap car. It's very nicely done. I would not expect it to be a track focussed swap; it's probably aimed at the guy who has a 996 that isn't worth putting a $25k engine into. Someone who wants factory style integration and working A/C. @zbomb is going for something totally different, more like an LMP 996. I have seen what's planned and it's going to be very good. Yeah @hbdunn will be faster than my gt2 tribute as well. Does not say much for my mad skillz. You know I will be there on 6/11/23.

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Can't believe I forgot the 996.1 mezger and a 3.4. My apologies gentlemen. Not intentional.

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We did something like this at Lime Rock last year. Someone has the picture. We had @De Jeeper 's GT3ish, @zbomb 's 3.6, @hbdunn and @Jnelso with the 3.4, and my 6TT.

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THANK YOU - This, exactly this. I love the idea of the 2.7 swap, I think for a street car, it will be killer, sweet turbo noises rule. On a track car with an engine bay with very poor airflow (heat extraction) and no good place to put a huge intercooler, the challenges of getting a narrow body turbo car, any narrow body turbo car to be reliable on track was a task way too daunting for me to try. I love this picture.

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As long as I and my car are still in one piece, I'm there too.

Curious how an American v8 is more of a track focused swap compared to a 2.7tt?

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Haha - you would be. Butter knife. The Turbo A turbine is placed in the exhaust at a collection point of multiple cylinders, the turbine represents a restriction to exhaust flow, as a result, heat builds up at the restriction. This restriction is acceptable because we are using that exhaust energy to spin the turbine wheel, free power ! What would otherwise would be waste heat energy is now put to good work. The turbine itself it going to be a 10, 15 or 20LB chunk of cast iron. Cast iron does not transfer heat well so when it gets hot, it stays hot, for a long time. It is not uncommon under track conditions to see a turbine glowing bright orange - this is normal. So my question to you - how much stuff do you want to cook on your track car ? Coil wires, 02 wires, cam or crank angle sensors, oil pan, intake piping ? because you will need to account for the heat of that turbine and the rest of your exhaust for all of those things and assure that none of them will get, ya know - too hot. How are you going to extract all that heat in an engine bay that is ONLY exposed to airflow coming from underneath the car ? Can you extract enough heat ? There are no provisions on a narrow body 996 to remove heat generated by a turbo (or 2), you're going to need to figure that out and be prepared to spend a bunch of money and fix some stuff if you don't figure it out good enough. That turbine is connected to a compressor which provides pressurized air to the engine. Do you know what happens when you compress air ? I do - it gets hot. This air must be cooled back down before introducing to the engine. This is done through an intercooler which is mechanically connected to both the compressor AND the throttle body through tubing. An intercooler generally will feature a simple air to air heat exchanger, but since our engines are in the back, there is no good way to get that tubing all the way to the front of the car and back - this is not sensible. This leaves you with a water to air exchanger, like used in the swap being discussed here as the realistic option. Again, the item needs to be plumbed in which because you don't have to run tubing to the front of the car gets a lot easier, but you do need to run coolant lines to the intercooler because the water in water to air is....coolant. When the coolant gets hot, the intercooler efficiency will degrade. When the intercooler efficiency degrades and IAT's rise, the engine will become prone to detonation, detonation is an awesome way to blow up your engine. Now, you could run a discrete closed loop system for the intercooler where you don't use engine coolant and instead have a tank, a pump, and a heat exchanger... somewhere to remove the load and reliance on the engine cooling system - have fun with that. Oh, you thinking about 2 turbos - well, have a great time doubling your exhaust side heat problems and plumbing another compressor side in, I'm sure you can do it ! On a street car where the demand on the cooling system is sooooooo much lower than on a track car, I have great confidence the air to water intercooler is a perfectly viable option and it looks like these guys did a really good job with the plumbing and integration - I still would not use it on a car that was principally used on the track without having everything I have noted above evaluated and accounted for. The reasons an American V8 in general, and an LS3/L92 in specific is a better option: -No turbo heat - No intercooler or plumbing -Aftermarket, track specific support that have won races....like LeMans / Grand Am etc... using these engines -Replacement engine cost $3.5K, maybe not equal to cheapness of the Audi option but huge value to HP out of the box -Power delivery as good - or better than Turbo, especially if boost cranked way up -No turbos mean easier to tune -Less failure points that can cause major engine damage - Waste gate line gets pinched or obstructed, you feed engine million pounds of boost, engine says no thank you and launches a rod to the moon.... For instance -Sound -No blowing off a coupler mid session I could prob keep going, but I think thats sufficient off the top of my head.

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Some pricey heat management would be a Laminova intercooler and a forced induction interchiller. Mandating aircon. Ironically I run this on my LS9 Senator( Chevy SS), and the results still favour drag over track raciing.

I do love coming back to this group to see threads like this. I wonder how many of the people defending the 2.7 swap have actually swapped an engine, or considered everything that goes into a swap...especially for a car that sees heavy track use. There's a reason why the LS engine is the most popular choice for a swap, cost/reliability/power...you can have all three. No other engine offers that. Like Zbomb, I also dont understand the "keep the engine in the car it came in" argument. I dont want a corvette and I love projects (and I hate the m96), so out it goes. Alternatively, I dont see any m96 powered corvettes.

Gearing , suspension, CG, and rev range are more important for a track car than power. Guess that�s what�s really missing bc these arguments are saying Porsche was always wrong stuffing turbocharged race motors in their iconic race cars but hey, what do Porsche engineers know 🤷‍♂️

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You have made it abundantly clear to anyone that knows anything on this topic. You ain�t part of the club. Good luck navigating your way forward, I imagine it must be pretty hard.

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Yea in a wide bodied car specifally designed around the motor. What u will NEVER see is one of those motors in another vehicle.

Search this subgroup for the guy that put a 996tt motor in the narrow body car that �no one ever does.� Maybe your navigation needs a dealer update 😂

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check out what he did to his rear fenders.

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I would be genuinely interestsd in reading the thread if u can find it? I just went through 10 pages of google search and didnt see a single 996 tt swap thread anywhere. Maybe im using the key words?

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https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-...8-996-ctr.html

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which if these 4 elements (gearing, suspension, CG and rev range), in your opinion, are made worse with an LS. Cause I can tell you which are significantly worse with a m96 or even a 2.7 vw engine. Gearing: I rev to 7200rpm but even if you stay at 6200 with an LS you're still way ahead of the curve power wise. Just stay in 4th gear where you would normally be in 2nd/3rd with an m96 and still carry more speed at 2000rpm lol suspension: whatever this means to you. scales and corner balance are your friend center of Gravity: my favorite. You lose roughly 40-80lbs off the rear doing an LS conversion and all that weight is virtually in the same area as the m96. LS cylinder heads weigh nothing. corner balance still comes out to 60-40, no additional oversteer/understeer if you drive well. Your opinion isnt meant to be swayed here, i personally dont care who does what with their car. For the people honestly considering doing a swap and read nonsense posted here, maybe they get some actual perspective.

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For some reason this brought up images of a Corvette with a water cooled P car motor out back. THAT would be a WEIRD car!

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Cool thread but as Zbomb said heat is an issue. Looks like he has been trying to midigate its effects since the begining.

the LS is mathematically superior sound/feel/"purity" aside

the LS is mathematically superior = cheap a V engine has a better or same COG as a flat six = WTF?? ( only if inverted/upsidedown) Heat ::: Heat is energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can be converted, transformed , managed, transferred, and/or used I'm not a fan of engine swaps , but I do like the Audi 2.7T best...

Even if a V8 swap raises the center of gravity 6" upwards, there's maybe a handful of people out there that are a good enough driver to notice it. Don't kid yourselves. Drive a 996 with a sunroof and standard battery then drive an identical car with a slicktop and an Antigravity battery and tell me if you can tell the difference.

Don�t forget it pushes the motor further away from the rear wheels. The reason people have to cut the rear tub to fit it. People arguing that the ls is better for track better notice the difference or they�re not as great as they�re claiming here 🤷‍♂️

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I see both sides. If the engine is the heart of the car, and the Porsche flat-6 is special in many ways, let it be. Just because one can improve power or reliability, doesn�t mean one should. Which is fine for most people. A stock 911 is a perfect car for what it is: something you can go and buy off the shelf at almost any dealer. But if my heart fails, or is defective, gotta get a new one - not worth dying over. Or if a stock car isn�t enough for the track, and it�s almost always the case that a completely stock 911 (save for GT cars) aren�t going to cut it on the track beyond the occasional DE, you have to start doing mods. Starting with tires, brake pads, brake fluid, and that�s just the start. For anyone who is serious about tracking their cars, you start pouring mods into the car for suspension, cages, electronics, seats, all sorts of things, most all of which are aftermarket. The more serious the track car is, the more unrecognizable it is from a street car. And a race car is bananas. Doesn�t make it wrong. Makes it faster.

Hah! What's the old saying... Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? Do it yourself guys with the skills to swap or rebuild have a unique advantage from a cost perspective over guys without the skill set like me. It would be nice to someday compile a list of rebuilds and swap builds with the cost of parts and service hours for all viable engines for both street and track dependability. Doubt it will ever happen but we can wish for it to see the true cost and compare it to engine output. Still have to solve for oil starvation, oil pressure and cooling regardless of the engine used. While the GT3 engine may be more expensive, could it possibly have the ultimate advantage over all others since it's design addresses the starvation, pressure and cooling issues all while fitting in a narrow body 996? Dunno, I'm not an engineer. And how much horsepower and torque do you really need in a well set up 996 to be competitive against the 991s and 992s on the track? 350whp, 400whp, 450whp?

^^^^ yes, although there r ls varients that r race ready too. its possible that 996 with any engine may never be compeditive with a 992. I would think with another 100hp my car would be at the limits of control and would stay with most modern cars. There is a point where the power to weight ratio exceeds physics.

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Think you just nailed it. The 991s and 992s are extremely fast with an average driver. Nannies really do allow you to extract more speed with less effort. But they don't help you to learn how to balance and drive the car which is a big part of the fun. If I wanted all out fast track times, I would get a Cayman GT4 and be done with it. But I would rather drive my 996 with no PSM and a LSD. But sure, an extra 100 hp would help on the straights.

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This one must have had a below average driver. Maybe Aaron @theprf remembers, he was riding shotgun.

Aaron does have a bigger wing. But I guess the Martini stickers don't make you faster.

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No but a Boxster would. People who are gung-ho on LS and don't give a sh7t about Porsche heritage could buy a Boxster chassis for what a good set of shocks cost ....If all you care about is go to fast cheaply on the track and don't need a back seat or to fit any competitive class.... Of course you could still spend a ton of $$ on good parts to go even faster.............

Gotta say - I LOVE that the fact swapping these cars has all the "Porsche heritage" guys so butt hurt. Evidence of the vanity of this group of "enthusiasts". Guys that put a mass produced, built to a budget car on a pedestal just because of the badge and will poo poo its flaws and shortcomings because of the "heritage" = badge. To me, cars are about FUN - not heritage or prestige or whatever other intangibles you lames care about. Like at first the idea of swapping my car was simply a means to achieve a goal with which I saw no other reasonable way to achieve it. Now, I get to enjoy it for so much more. All you guys crying, send me your addresses and I'll get some tissues out stat, on me.

Funny you mention the Boxster. May as well talk about the Miata. Every year I get blown away while watching the Miatas race against Caymans, Astons, Mercedes, BMWs, etc. during the Saturday IMSA Michelin Pilot series at Road America. Very little power but man can those guys carry momentum and get around the track pretty damn fast.

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything... Standing for the long racing heritage of Porsche engineering/design that I'm vested in.. Some people get hooked on power, some get hooked on boost, some get hooked speed, some get hooked on drugs..lol

I know, those Mazda's are crazy fast on the track....and cheap....lol

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Then why do you still own a Porsche? Is it bc of that badge on the car you speak of?

Quotes source post: 18492546

I understand. I think each person owns their car and should be allowed to use it however they want, in whatever way they get enjoyment. However, getting extra enjoyment because your use upsets others is a bit strange. Do you also kick dogs and steal candy from babies? More enjoyment from upsetting people to be had there. (I obviously understand the distinction between objectively bad behavior and just doing what you want to your car. I'm making a point about getting satisfaction from upsetting others.) The "purists", who get satisfaction from preserving the car as original are fine, it's like stamp or coin collecting. It also preserves the most value. What's wrong with that? And maybe they get upset that you're defacing coins that are part of the greater collection. So they're upset. So what?

Quotes source posts: 18496299, 18496486

I don�t have a badge on my car, doofus. I don�t, no. But, word on the street is that @Justin76 kicks babies AND steals candy from dogs. Ask @TheChunkNorris Atrocious if you ask me, almost as bad as @996clubsport posts.

Am I offending the hillbillies now? 😂

Quotes source post: 18497540

Offending, no. Amusing, a little. I think you are in the top 5 least intelligent people I have run across on this forum. That would put you in the company of people I believe have difficulty putting their socks on in the morning. Truly, I feel bad for you, and the people close to you. If you want to get help, let me know and im glad to hook you up with @De Jeeper who is one of the smartest and kindest people I know, if there’s anyone that can help you, it’s him.

Quotes source post: 18497535

Justin does, I seent it.

Wait, what? Was that a sexual preference comment?

Sorry i cant help... my superpower is convincing people that i am nice when im actually a d-ck.

Quotes source post: 18497535

yes @zbomb this is actually me .. screw babies...

Quotes source posts: 18497552, 18497545

You wish - call @Justin76

Quotes source post: 18497549

confirmation ... another time i hit a child...

@zbomb Lol you deleted your response of being in one of your men on here? 😂 you made my night

Quotes source post: 18497560

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I love chocolate

Quotes source post: 18497568

Dude - I didn�t delete anything and my concern for your well being is increasing by the minute. Let me help you, for you. I will ask @Justin76 to provide you assistance. Beyond being an admitted deviant, kid kicker and dog candy stealer he can provide you with �medical� attention if you need, if ya know what I�m saying. You need help. Get it.

This is too much fun. You�re too easy

Quotes source post: 18497582

You think I�m easy - wait to you meet @Justin76 Easy A F.

Quotes source post: 18497575

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You need backup? I thought you were big and ole mighty

Quotes source post: 18497587

that curl makes a MF melt 😂

Quotes source post: 18497578

i'm here for your assistance

Just finished reading this whole thread, great entertainment guys. LOL.

I hesitate to mention the op at this point, feel like I'm derailing the thread... I'm interested in this 2.7 swap because it looks like it will be simpler and cheaper than an LS swap. On the one hand I don't care for turbos on the 2.7. On the other hand I don't care to cut the car for the LS. I'd rather keep a flat 6 in the car, but I lack the skills and bills to get the motor fixed properly when it goes. I guess I should just enjoy the car and cross that bridge when I come to it.

Quotes source post: 18497545

Thankfully mine have little thingies on the back so I know which way they go.

Does anyone know if this would work for an all wheel drive car. I'm guessing "no," but....

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Quotes source post: 18498918

Yes. Engine is in the same place and the transmission is the same on the AWD cars, they just have a prop shaft coming out the front.

Yep, this package will work with C4 C4S also. The 2.7T has some serious grunt down low at 2000 RPM , The 2.7T with stock Turbo's turned up can put down 380 ft/lbs of torque at 2000 RPM... I don't know what the single Turbo used in this package will put down low in the RPM range ( it may have the Tq/HP moved up the rpm range) but they say 450 ft/lbs torque on this package... I know the RS 2.9T can put down 450 ft/lbs at 2000 RPM with stock Turbo's ...I don't know of many other engines that can put down this kind of grunt, ( even the fabled LSx) ...

You should do more research. Your automotive world perspective seems a little narrow.

By the way - who cares about 2K RPM performance. Tell me you’re lame without telling me you’re lame.

Come to think of it - Justine @Justin76 was talking all about 2K RPM performance. Something about how that a frequent topic at C and C. Things starting to make sense.

Quotes source post: 18500746

So glad you remember that during our special moment conversation.

It called area under the curve, ever hear of that?? Go back and check your 996 Horsepower thread....

Yea, the 2.7T Turned up is like a Silver Back Gorilla from 2000rpm up to 5k , to LSx a Chimpanzee..lol But carry on with your Morphodite ...it's ok with me... you remind me of a Politician...

Quotes source posts: 18500778, 18500793

So - I read this while I was still driving in Southern CT, if you rewind to about a half hour before I read it I thought "I'm going to make it one more rest stop before I take a ****" Mistake I read this and.... some came out. Thats some funny ish right there dude. Your nonsense is hilarious but kind of sad. Before you had this big *** axe to grind, I don't remember stuff like this coming from you. If your priority is to make power at 2K RMP instead of someplace you'll actually, I don't know... USE it... Thats up to you and anyone dumb enough to listen to you. If you think the Audi motor is preferable in power delivery to any of the below, again thats between you and anyone dumb enough to listen: Madison ? And I don't know what Morphodite means - for an insult to be effective, it needs to be understood by the intended target.

Did you say you pisssed on yourself?? lol ..Need a diaper change?? I was making more torque and horsepower than an LS on a 2.0T and setting records before you was born.....when you were still a twinkle in your daddy's eye and a drip down ya momma's leg.. youngsters nowadays think they know everything... And you need to learn what a Morphodite is,( they're self created nowadays) you probably dated a few..lol Your graphs that you like so much don't even depict the whole story,but I drew some crayon lines to help you...it cannot' show the full area under the curve ... But anyone can see that compared the LS is pig up to 5k and the at 6k the LS oil pump will start to cavitate and fail...( it uses a gerotor pump)

Skip - Nothing that you've done in your "racing" "career" do I care about, literally nothing. The world has changed and you constantly talking about stuff you did many, many years ago (before I was born) as if it has relevancy to today shows how little you have kept up. Your numbers sound great, they sound great because as you are so prone to do - they are just you talking and scribbling like a child trying to convince people who don't know better that you maintain any credibility on matters such as these - you don't. Not incredibly dissimilar to the whole video taping the oil pressure gauge genius idea - done to convince idiots. My graphs are from engines IN 996's... You have none so you should **** off on the what if's like someone with an ounce of class would do at this point.

Quotes source post: 18501063

And - just so I'm clear here. You're talking about my Dad's jizz dripping down my Mom's leg, is that accurate ? You're talking about jizz right ? Like *** ? I just want to make sure I am understanding you're on a car forum talking about male ejaculate otherwise known as jizz or ***. @Justin76 Did I get all the AKA's ? If so, thats ****ing gross...

Quotes source post: 18501100

Like I said you remind me of a Politician, your livelihood comes from taxpayers and you use our tax money anyway you see fit and if someone disagrees with it, you say "fu&k off " .. Most Porsche people are too good natured to call you out ( thats probably why you chose the 996) .. but not me..a Chevy engine in a Porsche shows no respect for the brand, it fits no competitive class... is outlawed in many places, you are only interested in "personal best" .. When asked why you even have a Porsche, you dodged the question like a true politician...if ALL you care about is to go fast on the track, you would have used a Boxster chassis, everyone knows it will outhandle the 996 on the track ...You diss people who support the brand to cause division to gather your possy of followers .. You care nothing for pissing off half the people because you think the other half mite follow your lead...That is the definition of being a troll..and politicians are very good at trolling.. If you were a true leader you would have the vision to see the facts are facts ..If you want to say that the engines cannot be installed then say so,,This thread proves they can, if you think the power numbers I presented are not facts then say so and stop dancing around like a politician..I can not only prove the numbers are accurate but are very very conservative... You say my past racing history doesn't matter to you?? I know it doesn't.........You say that things have changed?? yes they have,, but history repeats it's self and car history repeats about every 30 years...you just haven't lived long enough to learn this yet...

Quotes source post: 18501189

You are so simple. You will not find anywhere in this thread I said I didn't like the idea of the Audi swap... Find the words, you won't. I like it for the road, I do not think it is the best choice for a car thats going to see heavy track use. Look up time trials rules Skip - seriously. I have not called you out on being wrong on this, many times... as a courtesy. You're wrong about classing and any idiot with Google can figure that out in no more than 10 minutes. Regardless, If I want to build my car just to have fun with - why the F do you care about that - why do you feel like you are important enough to dictate what are, and are not worthy uses of a car - seriously, you're not, not even a little bit. I have a Porsche because I like the car, specifically the chassis dynamics - I've said this many times. Boxster are for girls, the only scenario I see it out handling a 911 is me driving the boxster and you in the poor 911. I am not a leader, I want to have fun in my car. Post the Audi engine dyno IN A 911 - otherwise, its just you being you. Your tangent of history repeating itself stinks like the words of someone who has been past by. Your comments about my Dad and Mom and jizz **** me off a little despite your insignificance, what can I say - I love my Mom and Dad. Now would be a great time for you to STFU or, keep talking your little head, The exposure into who you are is fine with me, I'm even glad you're taking care of such a large contribution of it all on your own. If you want the clearest example of something I have no respect for, I can make it so easy even you'll be able to see it - find a mirror. I'm going to go grab our email chain from May (after the email was sent to interested people saying that testing had been completed in March) and put it up in your UIDS thread now I asked you nicely before - you couldn't help yourself.

Quotes source post: 18501273

Boxsters are for girls huh ?? lol.. "I am not a leader, I want to have fun in my car."...... I know your not, that's why you want to put a Chevy motor in your Porsche,, because of the "support" from the aftermarket....you **** on Porsche support like Jake, LN... The Porsche 996 handles great,,, but so does the Boxster and Miata,,, and they're cheaper...( like the Chevy LSx) You are just pissed because I hate Chevys....and say so....there are better choices than Chevy's albeit require a little more money and require a little more effort

Quotes source post: 18497585

sorry i missed this one .. I'm as Easy as Easy E

Quotes source post: 18500740

Not trying to interrupt your argument, but, Mercedes M279 HP/TQ curves. Not too lame.

Zbomb and Porschetech, most of us don�t want to hear your back and forth personal stuff on this thread. I�m not reporting. I�m just saying here and now.

For the 2 years I�ve been a member of Rennlist it seems like it�s always the same person involved in petty arguments. It�s amusing/entertaining to watch the little man complex play out on a forum. Please don�t make it stop.

I have to say I'm quite intrigued by the use of the 2.7T and would have considered this for my rebuild if I'd have known about this 6 months ago. I used to lust after the S4 with this engine back when I had my A4, but couldn't afford it. Then Car and Driver did that test with the new WRX vs S4 and the 330(?) and I was sold on the Subbie for years. Anyway, I hope to see more of these 2.7T 996s running around.

Quotes source post: 18503567

Yea and it usually includes u too.

Quotes source post: 18503692

SO true

It�s cute his girlfriends stick up for him. Nah, I�m not the only one who doesn�t put up with the little guys arrogant bs. Have you ladies ever seen his participation trophies? I�m sure he has a wall full of them.

Truth hurts dosent it? still relavant

Quotes source post: 18503813

There is no way you and with a screen name Philbert would call me a girlfriend to my face in real life.. it's sad you have to move to childish name calling but as usual it's the norm for you. Once a keyboard warrior always a keyboard warrior.

Quotes source post: 18503813

Looks like we�re having some FOMO going on� here for the entertainment. I do like the 2.7 Swap idea especially with the selling point being a quick and clean swap which is awesome. Still think the VR6 would be a more applicable swap and believe they�re more plentiful. More options are fantastic.

Quotes source post: 18503885

I live in Newtown Pennsylvania, a northern suburb of Philadelphia. If you, your girlfriend or your girlfriend�s girlfriend are ever in the area let me know. Okay, cupcake

Quotes source post: 18503939

The weather is warmer here in FL, hit me up if you�re in the area.

Quotes source post: 18503939

Cupcake LMAO.. I will hit you up Qbert if I get close which odds are good..

Cool im 20min south. Cant wait to meet u at a cars and coffee, toughguy.

Quotes source post: 18503971

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Did someone say…. Cars and coffee. Justine - get my hat and sweater and the 2nd sweater.

Quotes source post: 18503982

I'm switching to a vest

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Quotes source post: 18503971

Sounds good Sugar **** Bucks County Exotics in Warrington PA 1st and 3rd Saturday every month I only made it twice this year but let me know when you�re going.

Quotes source post: 18503964

I�m probably visiting my dad in Marco Island in March.

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Quotes source posts: 18503885, 18504099

You girls are hilarious

I can't remember what this thread was about. Oh, I remember now. Here are a few pictures of the engine rebuild I did with my son last year. iPaf0UD.jpg Complete rebuild with new internal K04's. BCJkoUH.jpg pXZ2q1N.jpg 5ynYGDX.jpg H0Fa6ZC.jpg rvHmof3.jpg

Quotes source post: 18504338

Paul, looks great! What do you have to do to the engine to make it track durable?

To make it track durable? I would say make sure all those soft parts are replaced and don't run lean! Make the boost clamps don't come loose! With proper tuning, they run incredibly well, I know a few guys that are really talented to tune these, I am not good at that.

Quotes source post: 18504373

Never been out with the Audi club for a track day. Thought about it many times when I had my 2003 S8. Was always curious to see what the guys did to the 4.2 and 2.7T engines.

I had a 97 A8 that I did a bunch of tracking with, put a Porsche big brake kit on it along with H&R's, it was a blast. I had Randy Pobst drive it with me in the passenger seat at Mid-Ohio and he loved it, I could not believe how he was passing cars in it. I had an 01 S8 that I tracked a few times and then bought an 07 S8 which I just sold a month ago, had that one for 11 years! Trying to pair down things a bit.

Quotes source post: 18504415

You have had some incredible Audi hardware. Miss my 03 S8. Probably my favorite sedan. Someone made an il advised left into my daughter on Ogden Ave when she had the right of way. She was fine, airbag didn't even go off, but the insurance company totaled it because it was aluminum and they didnt know what the cost to repair would be. Every so often I look for one to refresh. Great engine, light car, nimble and low tech.

Too funny, I grew up in Hinsdale about a block from Ogden Ave. I know it very well all the way from the city to I-355.

Quotes source post: 18504338

What did you make? Those S4s are my fave.

Quotes source post: 18484852

https://www.hagerty.com/media/archiv...-arkus-duntov/ Father of the 928: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...-928-corvette/

Great! For years the Audi folks have been trying to be as cool as us, and now we just gave them a reason to chime in...

Quotes source post: 18506609

No surprize, top engineers often collaborated between each other if they have like goals, and even swap companies . Larry Shinoda mentioned here left Chevy/Corvette and was a key player in the Mustang Boss 302 and Boss 429 ..and he even produced his own Shinoda Boss Mustang with his own company.. "Shinoda already had a vision in mind: A street machine that ran and performed like a race car. Something that would put the Z-28 Chevys in their place."

Just shows you how small of an industry it was and still is.

Quotes source post: 18506918

Especially in Deutschland.

Need more of these videos. Fun comparison. You Tube

I would agree if it wasn�t a tv show that builds cars to flip. We all know that�s staged for ratings

Never drove an LS3 powered 996. But I did drive a 2017 Turbo S at Barber Motorsports. Incredible, useable power. I was impressed by the linear powerband. It would take alot for the LS3 996 to beat it around the track with equivalent drivers.

Quotes source post: 18509683

Agree. It would take the LT4 engine that makes 650HP and 630 lb-ft to beat the turbo S, which makes 580HP and 516 lb-ft of torque. Or one could just make some suspension and tire tweaks on the Turbo S and get the same result. But of course, why would anyone do that - they�d be better off just buying a tune on the turbo S. So again, they�d have no chance against the Chevy motor car.

Quotes source post: 18509725

A 2017 Turbo S weighs 3527LBS and makes 580HP crank - a power to weight ratio of .164HP/LB My car target weigh approximately 2800LBS with a HP goal of 500HP crank - a power to weight of .18HP/LB Video below shows that power level to be relatively easily achievable with a cam'd LS3 which they run up to 550HP area. I am hedging on their results as they don't run any accessories on the motor for testing. You Tube

Quotes source post: 18509627

I own 2 ls powered 996 cars, and have a hard time believing that anything but a heads cam and nitrous ls3 could even hang with the 991 turbo s. I believe the turbo s traps in the 133mph range, and that�s a tall order for a close to stock ls3 in a 3200 lb car or more. The magic of the TV!

Quotes source post: 18509759

I plan to run mine on the drag strip at least once when its done in full road course setup mode. Figure it will be a great benchmark of just how fast it is. I'll baby it off the line, don't really care about ET - lookin for that MPH.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/make-y...ry-audi-engine saw this article today and it piqued my attention. Now I gotta read this whole thread. Seems like something to consider if my engine goes kaput.

Quotes source post: 18509759

CDK, out of curiosity, what did you do with the transmissions in both cars to handle the power?

One is an automatic 722.6 with 145,000 miles that my wife drives. And the other a g96.31 I believe with 134,000 miles. Both are stock and my wife�s car is her driver in the summer. It doesn�t get abused that much. The 6 speed turbo ls1 car seems to be taking the power well, but I have learned in the past that speed shifting is the deathnell of transmissions. All of the transmissions I have broken have been due to aggressive shifting. I have pushed many manual transmissions to twice their torque limit when in light cars with v8 transplants. The automatic car has a separate cooler up front with a big radiator and pump that keeps the trans at no more than 160 degrees. I need to buy a spare for both of them, that will ensure I never need either of them😳 Would guess with a stock v8 and non abusive use, these will last a long time. The biggest issue these days as I have stated, is the rear gear ratio that hangs around 3000 rpm at 75 mph. These cars aren�t conducive for freeway driving in 2022 , since the average speed needs to be north of 80mph, and they were designed with 60mph or so in mind. Nothing from the accessories to the pinion bearings appreciate this sort of rpm. I am looking into the 3.00 ring and pinion for the g96, but that will delete my awd in the turbo car. ( not that it helps greatly)

Some might find this interesting ,This month 37 years ago this article was published in Super Stock Magazine( december issue) . A glimpse into the past to see what has /has not changed in 37 years when it comes to engine power development/technology.... This little German 122 cubic inch 2.0T engine was trapping 140+ mph 1/4th mile and 110 mph 1/8th mile in the early 80's....a famous little car... Also depicted in this article is a picture of a couple of twinkles from my eye, not pictured is another twinkle that was born 4 years later and she is now 32 years old.( about the age of her mother shown here (deceased)) .....Its hard to believe it's been almost 4 decades since then...my how time flies.....and 7 little "Grand Twinkles" and counting so far......

I had a 1978 Blue Ford Pinto with a white Starsky stripe. Fun car. Certainly would have liked Skip's engine in it, but it would have only gotten me in trouble as a 19 year old. Funny throwback commercial with Jackie Stewart. You Tube

Quotes source post: 18509937

I've driven my ls3 996 2400 miles in 3 days for multiple road trips. Been running the factory 996 trans since 2017 without a single issue with over 25K road miles. Car spends half its time as a street car and the other half as a track car.

Cool swap. Wish it came with an alloy block to reduce weight further. I will say 500hp for $11k is a great deal and makes it mighty enticing.

Quotes source post: 18517731

Yea just not a fan or 3000 plus rpm, not saying it won�t work, just unnecessary rpm for this engine and accessories

The dudes ran their car on the dyno a couple times, been waiting a while for numbers but sounds great. Instagram

That is cool. I actually bought a B5S4 about 5 months ago. I have to sell it, was going to flip it, but it really isn't worth much. It's in nice shape. I thought I could always keep it and then stage 3 it.....but now I am thinking I could have an incredible donor engine that hasn't been modified for an engine swap when my engine fails! If anybody is interested in a 2001 S4 six speed manual with a great black interior with 120K miles for $6,500 let me know.