Why N rated tyres for Porsche? - Page 4 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

This is worth a watch ... PS4S for BMW but just an example of how the manufacturers work with Michelin ....

Still not as good as newer, non N rated tyres.

SkinnyPete said: Still not as good as newer, non N rated tyres. Yep, there are those that insist on buying N rated tyres that havent been updated in decades and then there are those that claim non-N rated invalidates your insurance and MOT

Possibly the case that newer tyres could be better -- if available in the right size -- it would be useful if Porsche could keep us informed but I guess they get a cut out of an N rating and wouldn't use non-N rated tyres on new cars ... ??

I do it through a combination of laziness and use of extended warranties in the GT cars. Out of warranty I make other choices.

There is also a video out there from Porsche Club Of America talking about suspension and tyres and from memory someone from Michelin is there and they discuss why the N rated PS4S is so much better than the off the shelf version. Much stiffer compound on the outside 1/3's and sidewalls to give you the steering feel Porsche expect from their cars.

ChrisW. said: Possibly the case that newer tyres could be better -- if available in the right size -- it would be useful if Porsche could keep us informed but I guess they get a cut out of an N rating and wouldn't use non-N rated tyres on new cars ... ?? How would Porsche know? They'd have to test each new tyre on old models to find out.

I wonder at what 10th and road conditions and variables youd have to be going to notice the difference between the 2 compounds and whether a weekend warrior (put myself in that bracket) would even be able to tell

John D. said: How would Porsche know? They'd have to test each new tyre on old models to find out. Interestingly they did develop a completely new N rated tire for the Carrera GT which did not have adequate tire technology when it was in production.

RDMcG said: John D. said: How would Porsche know? They'd have to test each new tyre on old models to find out. Interestingly they did develop a completely new N rated tire for the Carrera GT which did not have adequate tire technology when it was in production. Exception to the rule I imagine. A halo car, and famous for inadequate tyre technology. Still my favourite supercar.

Trash_panda said: I wonder at what 10th and road conditions and variables youd have to be going to notice the difference between the 2 compounds and whether a weekend warrior (put myself in that bracket) would even be able to tell The difference is absolutely massive. The off the shelf PS4S on a Porsche is rubbish, the steering feel is horrible, the turn in and off centre response is so wooly. Still think there are better tyres than the N rated PS4S tyre, but the N rated PS4S is night and day better than the non N rated, it is not about when you are pressing on, it is the minute you turn the steering wheel. It is far from subtle.

SkinnyPete said: Still not as good as newer, non N rated tyres. The N rated PS2 has much sharper steering than the non N rated PS4S, which in turn is not as numb as the PS5. Move to say a Conti Sport Contact or the new Bridgestone Potenza Sport and I agree, they both beat any of the above and non are N rated. So no, you don't need N rated, but, and it is a big but, Porsche expect a certain feel from their cars, and will work with tyre manufacturers to get a tyre to where they expect it to be feel wise before signing it off and giving it an N rating. It took 6 years for Porsche and Michelin to get the PS4S signed off. Edited by Ed.Neumann on Monday 8th December 00:33

Ed.Neumann said: The difference is absolutely massive. The off the shelf PS4S on a Porsche is rubbish, the steering feel is horrible, the turn in and off centre response is so wooly. Still think there are better tyres than the N rated PS4S tyre, but the N rated PS4S is night and day better than the non N rated, it is not about when you are pressing on, it is the minute you turn the steering wheel. It is far from subtle. Agree, doesn t mean there aren’t multiple choices but when buying a specific tyre, if there is an N rating, then get it. The most egregious example I had was non Porsche, but I put a brace of MGR (Maserati) rated Pirelli s instead of J on the back of my P575 F Type. f ked it right up!

Ed.Neumann said: SkinnyPete said: Still not as good as newer, non N rated tyres. The N rated PS2 has much sharper steering than the non N rated PS4S, which in turn is not as numb as the PS5. Move to say a Conti Sport Contact or the new Bridgestone Potenza Sport and I agree, they both beat any of the above and non are N rated. So no, you don't need N rated, but, and it is a big but, Porsche expect a certain feel from their cars, and will work with tyre manufacturers to get a tyre to where they expect it to be feel wise before signing it off and giving it an N rating. It took 6 years for Porsche and Michelin to get the PS4S signed off. Edited by Ed.Neumann on Monday 8th December 00:33 You know, I can't get my head around why folk spend £££££'s buying these cars, ££££'s on a set of tyres, and opt not to buy N rated tyres. I don't get it. Each to their own, I guess.

Trash_panda said: I wonder at what 10th and road conditions and variables youd have to be going to notice the difference between the 2 compounds and whether a weekend warrior (put myself in that bracket) would even be able to tell Yes, a lot of posters on forums you'd think they are professional racing drivers

Ed.Neumann said: There is also a video out there from Porsche Club Of America talking about suspension and tyres and from memory someone from Michelin is there and they discuss why the N rated PS4S is so much better than the off the shelf version. ... they would say that wouldn't they....?

Ed.Neumann said: The N rated PS2 has much sharper steering than the non N rated PS4S, which in turn is not as numb as the PS5. Edited by Ed.Neumann on Monday 8th December 00:33 The last iteration of the PS2 (the N4) was released in the summer of 2015, its compound and tech over a decade old already. I understand wanting to use N rated tyres on more modern porsches but you still see people hell bent on getting the PS2 tyres in 996 and 997 fitments

isaldiri said: they would say that wouldn't they....? Haha, Well yeah, but they do explain why. And anyone who has gone from say a Bridgestone to a PS4S on a 911 will totally get why they made the changes for the N rated tyre, and what those changes bring to the table.

SV_WDC said: Trash_panda said: I wonder at what 10th and road conditions and variables youd have to be going to notice the difference between the 2 compounds and whether a weekend warrior (put myself in that bracket) would even be able to tell Yes, a lot of posters on forums you'd think they are professional racing drivers Seriously, you only have to start turning the wheel to feel it. This is not a case of having to be really pushing the car or subtle differences here. The best way to describe the difference is like the car has had much stiffer anti roll bars fitted and another 1/2 degree of camber on the front too. Instantly the steering sharpens up, and the turn in off centre is instant, it is really satisfying. I went the other, I went non N rated, and that was even more noticeable. It felt like the tyres were at 15psi, I genuinely went straight to the petrol station to check the pressures it felt so 'wooly'. That is the best word to describe it.

Crudeoink said: Ed.Neumann said: The N rated PS2 has much sharper steering than the non N rated PS4S, which in turn is not as numb as the PS5. The last iteration of the PS2 (the N4) was released in the summer of 2015, its compound and tech over a decade old already. I understand wanting to use N rated tyres on more modern porsches but you still see people hell bent on getting the PS2 tyres in 996 and 997 fitments But you can't take away the fact that the N rated PS2, like you say, a tyres that was last updated a decade ago, still has far better steering response and feel than any non N rated Michelin on those cars. Including Cup 2s. Would I buy them? No. They are noisy, too firm, grip in the wet is no where near as good as even a standard PS4 and they are outclassed by other newer tyres out there, but I wouldn't be choosing a Michelin if buying something else as for me, personally, steering feel is everything on these cars and the non N rated Michelins just don't cut it. I think the issue for many is most of us are Michelin fan boys, myself included, and after spending £800 on a new set of tyres we notice the positives, comfier, quieter, more outright grip, amazing in the wet and love them. We end up forgetting what the positives were on the older tyres, thing is tech has moved on, and you can now get all the above but with steering feel too. Outside 1/3 in much firmer rubber, slightly stiffer sidewall on the outside so you don't get the flex as you load them up. You can have both. I'm sure when we see the PS S5 or whatever it is called, arrive in more sizes and people start buying that, everyone will start raving about the steering feel.

On the face of it, folk believe that tyre technology has gone forward, not backwards, when the reality is that they've actually gone backwards due to EU regs ECE R117-02 Regs said: ECE R117-02 is a United Nations regulation for tyre type approval that sets mandatory limits for rolling noise, wet grip, and rolling resistance, applicable to passenger (C1), light truck (C2), and truck/bus (C3) tyres, aiming for better fuel efficiency (less resistance) and safety (wet grip/noise) with phased implementation for different tyre classes and vehicle types, introducing stricter standards and even end-of-life criteria for snow tyre It made a huge difference to the tyre compounds that tyre manufacturers were mandated to introduce. The key date for performance tyres was 2016. It's been all downhill since, but none of these tyre review sites even mention it. Put simply, it mandated performance tyres to be more fuel efficient, rolling radius, blah blah, which has ultimately led to harder tyre compounds. https://share.google/aimode/4HBoK6fYE2N8QPKor

SkinnyPete said: Still not as good as newer, non N rated tyres. This. Obsessing over the "N" on a 10yr old tyre design/technology when tyres move forward every year is daft. If there was a modern tyre with N rating that works then fair enough, go for it. The PS2 was a new tyre 20yrs ago.

maz8062 said: On the face of it, folk believe that tyre technology has gone forward, not backwards, when the reality is that they've actually gone backwards due to EU regs ECE R117-02 Regs said: ECE R117-02 is a United Nations regulation for tyre type approval that sets mandatory limits for rolling noise, wet grip, and rolling resistance, applicable to passenger (C1), light truck (C2), and truck/bus (C3) tyres, aiming for better fuel efficiency (less resistance) and safety (wet grip/noise) with phased implementation for different tyre classes and vehicle types, introducing stricter standards and even end-of-life criteria for snow tyre It made a huge difference to the tyre compounds that tyre manufacturers were mandated to introduce. The key date for performance tyres was 2016. It's been all downhill since, but none of these tyre review sites even mention it. Put simply, it mandated performance tyres to be more fuel efficient, rolling radius, blah blah, which has ultimately led to harder tyre compounds. https://share.google/aimode/4HBoK6fYE2N8QPKor Is that why tyres improve every year in tests then? Also.. You don't perhaps think that has something to do with the update the PS2 had in 2015.....

Jhonno said: maz8062 said: On the face of it, folk believe that tyre technology has gone forward, not backwards, when the reality is that they've actually gone backwards due to EU regs ECE R117-02 Regs said: ECE R117-02 is a United Nations regulation for tyre type approval that sets mandatory limits for rolling noise, wet grip, and rolling resistance, applicable to passenger (C1), light truck (C2), and truck/bus (C3) tyres, aiming for better fuel efficiency (less resistance) and safety (wet grip/noise) with phased implementation for different tyre classes and vehicle types, introducing stricter standards and even end-of-life criteria for snow tyre It made a huge difference to the tyre compounds that tyre manufacturers were mandated to introduce. The key date for performance tyres was 2016. It's been all downhill since, but none of these tyre review sites even mention it. Put simply, it mandated performance tyres to be more fuel efficient, rolling radius, blah blah, which has ultimately led to harder tyre compounds. https://share.google/aimode/4HBoK6fYE2N8QPKor Is that why tyres improve every year in tests then? Also.. You don't perhaps think that has something to do with the update the PS2 had in 2015..... My point is, tyre compounds have been getting harder to comply with the directive quoted above. Yes, this is a step forward in terms of fuel efficiency, noise, etc., but it has meant that tyre compounds and treadwear numbers are getting higher. The PS2 quoted above was a 220 treadwear tyre; PS5s today are something like 340 treadwear. Cup 2's are 180. The lower the treadwear number, the softer the compound, but also the shorter the life of the tyre, louder, etc. So tyre compounds for sports cars have been getting harder, lasting longer and are quieter. But it doesn't mean they're better for "fast road", although many have been convinced that they are.

Jhonno said: This. Obsessing over the "N" on a 10yr old tyre design/technology when tyres move forward every year is daft. If there was a modern tyre with N rating that works then fair enough, go for it. The PS2 was a new tyre 20yrs ago. I think most people would agree with this, however, when you do back to back testing with the different tyres you realise that "may" not be the case. We have certain parameters when designing a tyre. 1. Dry Grip 2. Wet Grip 3. Economy (rolling resistance) 4. Noise 5. Comfort 6. Wear Rate 7. Feel You can usually chose to up one area at the expense of another, in some cases you might increase economy by making the compound harder but lose out on grip, but you could claw the grip levels back by changing the tread pattern, but this in turn may then mean they feel like jelly because the blocks move around too much under load. That tyre has hardly changed over the years design wise, the ps2 and ps5... What has changed is what Michelin need to do to be able to hit regulations, so compounds change to achieve this, hoping maybe the tyre will be as good as can be, and you never know, in some areas be better. Jump from a PS4S to a Bridgstone Potenza Sport and the difference is pretty amazing. The dry grip is nearly as good, the wet grip is even better, they are quieter, around 3db quieter at the rear in the cabin of a 911 and and the main thing is the steering is back, it is razor sharp like you would expect on a Porsche. But there is a problem, to get all this the rolling resistance is poor, MPG is down from 24 to 20/21 over the first 3000 miles and the rears look like they will only last around 5-6k tops compared with 8k or more on the Michelins. But all that is worth it to me, as ultimately I don't actually like the car very much on the Michelins, the steering is horrible. Tweaking the geo could not bring that back. Big problem though. The EU have banned the tyre as it doesn't meet their emissions standards. So I even though I could have bought 2 new rears and then had a change when the front run out as the rears do next time, I am now forced to buy 4 new tyres when the front 2 will probably have 5mm left and less than 2 years old. Or hope the new Potenza Sport (a) version that is coming is close enough a match to not cause issues if mixed, but I suspect it will be much firmer which I don't want. But when it comes to road tyres, very little has changed over the last quarter of a century, and in many cases it is trying to adhere to new regulations, and just make sure they are not worse. The move to bigger wheels has allowed much wider tyres which obviously give more outright grip, everything else equal, but for someone running say a 997 (which is when the PS2 came out) I think they might be quite surprised just how nice an N4 PS2 feels today compared to an off the shelf PS5. We can see how much tyre tech has improved when we look at track tyres, tyres that don't have to adhere to the same rules as road tyres. They have changed massively. By the way, I'm still a Michelin fan boy, and I have PS4S on my family estate car, so not knocking them.

maz8062 said: My point is, tyre compounds have been getting harder to comply with the directive quoted above. Yes, this is a step forward in terms of fuel efficiency, noise, etc., but it has meant that tyre compounds and treadwear numbers are getting higher. The PS2 quoted above was a 220 treadwear tyre; PS5s today are something like 340 treadwear. Cup 2's are 180. The lower the treadwear number, the softer the compound, but also the shorter the life of the tyre, louder, etc. So tyre compounds for sports cars have been getting harder, lasting longer and are quieter. But it doesn't mean they're better for "fast road", although many have been convinced that they are. I started replying and got caught up with something at work, took nearly 2 hours to finish my reply, so missed your reply. You said it far more succinctly than I.

Have to say, I'm a bit gobsmacked there is even a debate that modern tyres being vastly better than older ones. it's like damper tech - roll back 20 years vs now and it's basically almost like a new car with those 2 things updated. I've had a car that was supposed to use N rated PS2s (which were pretty bloody awful), just bunged on non N rated Supersports the moment I could and the difference was literally night and day with the latter being an infinitely more stable and settled car with non N rated PS4S better yet. Now i've stuck on N rated tyres again but that's because a brand new N rated was plastered onto a modern tyre but I would absolutely (and did) stick on the non N rated ones prior to that. The original N rated Cup+ tyre vs the non N rated Cup2 was another total no brainer if needs must. Ultimately though, people should just put on whatever tyre they feel happiest with, the old N rated stuff keeps one warm and fuzzy vs a modern non N-rated one - great but the advances in tyre tech are what they are.....

isaldiri said: Have to say, I'm a bit gobsmacked there is even a debate that modern tyres being vastly better than older ones. Some are, some are not. And that all depends what it is you want from your tyre. That is the point. For me, the way it feels and handles is the most important thing. It is why I bought Porsches, I love the steering feel, that sharp turn in you get where you feel the whole car is turning on it's hips. I would sacrifice a bit of grip, some wear, mpg and noise/comfort over that feel. Others will happily sacrifice the steering feel if they are going to gain in all the areas above, and you could argue they are the smart one as they are getting half a dozen benefits over my choice. Edit: Just tried to find others who have felt the same with PS4S tyres on a Porsche.... https://youtu.be/3D1aVL1w6hs?si=AZeR8YgCvekIW-mA&a... Edit number 2: Now we are talking tyres my youtube is full of vids. This explains why so many ultra high performance tyres are feeling so numb... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2wleL1Sfxr4 Edited by Ed.Neumann on Tuesday 9th December 12:54

Very interesting ... I wonder what the new MPS5S will be like (or will it be the MPSS5 ??) ... and N rated ? I wonder what characteristics Porsche are looking for in their N rating ??

ChrisW. said: I wonder what characteristics Porsche are looking for in their N rating ?? I imagine rear weight bias may come into it.

ChrisW. said: Very interesting ... I wonder what the new MPS5S will be like (or will it be the MPSS5 ??) ... and N rated ? I wonder what characteristics Porsche are looking for in their N rating ?? They said they need a much firmer compound on the outside 1/3 and the side wall, especially in the rear, so it doesn't flex as much. It is the initial flex in the tyre when it is softer, that takes away that razor sharp steering, hence why Porsche, BMW and AMG all increased the firmness to make sure the steering is as good as can be. It will be interesting to see what the Pilot Sport S5 is like. It does seem that it has been a long time coming though.

Some of these manufacturer approved tyres are freaky tunes. That isn’t unintentional. They are trying to get their car, for example a tail heavy 911, to be precise and mans easy (as in not dangerous) to drive. Not just for bad drivers, for all drivers. Now compounds improve with time, but that doesn’t change the tyre to deliver the required characteristics when driving at 150 mph in an almost straight line. This isn’t only about limit grip, it’s how stable the car is when it drives straight ahead, and how it combines that with extreme and extremely controllable agility.

Just back from a few days in Munich, I often drive in France and Germany. One thing becoming increasingly poor is the quality of road surfaces in the UK, even newly laid tarmac and repairs. I feel far more confident abroad, We need N rated roads over here!

Ed.Neumann said: Jhonno said: This. Obsessing over the "N" on a 10yr old tyre design/technology when tyres move forward every year is daft. If there was a modern tyre with N rating that works then fair enough, go for it. The PS2 was a new tyre 20yrs ago. I think most people would agree with this, however, when you do back to back testing with the different tyres you realise that "may" not be the case. We have certain parameters when designing a tyre. 1. Dry Grip 2. Wet Grip 3. Economy (rolling resistance) 4. Noise 5. Comfort 6. Wear Rate 7. Feel You can usually chose to up one area at the expense of another, in some cases you might increase economy by making the compound harder but lose out on grip, but you could claw the grip levels back by changing the tread pattern, but this in turn may then mean they feel like jelly because the blocks move around too much under load. That tyre has hardly changed over the years design wise, the ps2 and ps5... What has changed is what Michelin need to do to be able to hit regulations, so compounds change to achieve this, hoping maybe the tyre will be as good as can be, and you never know, in some areas be better. Jump from a PS4S to a Bridgstone Potenza Sport and the difference is pretty amazing. The dry grip is nearly as good, the wet grip is even better, they are quieter, around 3db quieter at the rear in the cabin of a 911 and and the main thing is the steering is back, it is razor sharp like you would expect on a Porsche. But there is a problem, to get all this the rolling resistance is poor, MPG is down from 24 to 20/21 over the first 3000 miles and the rears look like they will only last around 5-6k tops compared with 8k or more on the Michelins. But all that is worth it to me, as ultimately I don't actually like the car very much on the Michelins, the steering is horrible. Tweaking the geo could not bring that back. Big problem though. The EU have banned the tyre as it doesn't meet their emissions standards. So I even though I could have bought 2 new rears and then had a change when the front run out as the rears do next time, I am now forced to buy 4 new tyres when the front 2 will probably have 5mm left and less than 2 years old. Or hope the new Potenza Sport (a) version that is coming is close enough a match to not cause issues if mixed, but I suspect it will be much firmer which I don't want. But when it comes to road tyres, very little has changed over the last quarter of a century, and in many cases it is trying to adhere to new regulations, and just make sure they are not worse. The move to bigger wheels has allowed much wider tyres which obviously give more outright grip, everything else equal, but for someone running say a 997 (which is when the PS2 came out) I think they might be quite surprised just how nice an N4 PS2 feels today compared to an off the shelf PS5. We can see how much tyre tech has improved when we look at track tyres, tyres that don't have to adhere to the same rules as road tyres. They have changed massively. By the way, I'm still a Michelin fan boy, and I have PS4S on my family estate car, so not knocking them. A good read thanks, so for a 2011 991 3,8 still on P zero n rated, that are getting old, would you recommend the Bridgestone for max feel, but the n rated ps4 for ok feel, but more wear and better mpg .?

N rated PS4S will be pretty good all round, steering still not as good as 'some' others. If you want to stick with N rated sure, go PS4S. If you are happy to move away, look at the Continental Contact Sport 7. I don't like the Pirellis' you have on your car now, OK in hot weather, but really fall apart when it gets below 8ºc or so, and even worse when you put wet weather into the mix. The PS4S and Conti SC7 you can treat virtually the same in the wet than the dry, not something you will have found with the Pirellis I'm sure? The Bridgestones are great, but I would not recommend them as they have been banned in the EU as they have not met emissions standards. So you might end up with worn rears and 7mm fronts and not be able to get replacements. A new Potenza Sport A, or something like that is on it's way, but could be rubbish depending how they change it. Conti SC7 would be my choice.

Very useful ... I couldn't find N rated Conti's for my car ... actually I could find two slightly different rear tyres but no front tyres ... so went PS4S N0. As a matter of interest I wrote to Continental and did get a reply, which was impressive

ChrisW. said: Very useful ... I couldn't find N rated Conti's for my car ... actually I could find two slightly different rear tyres but no front tyres ... so went PS4S N0. I was in the same position a few weeks back. Couldn’t find anything N rated and needed to ditch the Cup 2s. Went with the safe choice again of PS4S’s. They’re probably still the best all round tyre, but I would have gone down the Continental route had they been available. For anyone who has bought the Continentals what’s the wear like compared to the Michelins?

chris-e said: Just back from a few days in Munich, I often drive in France and Germany. One thing becoming increasingly poor is the quality of road surfaces in the UK, even newly laid tarmac and repairs. I feel far more confident abroad, We need N rated roads over here! Ah but your only feeling the road conditions so much due to the feedback being given by those n-rated tyres ;-) Im in Germany and occasionally drive in the UK, and my once favourite roads seem to be littered with dips caused by incorrectly packing of material above the buried services. Fortunately ive been at/less than the speed limit but could imagine what awaits someone if they hit it at speed.

TrevorHill said: I was in the same position a few weeks back. Couldn t find anything N rated and needed to ditch the Cup 2s. Went with the safe choice again of PS4S s. They re probably still the best all round tyre, but I would have gone down the Continental route had they been available. For anyone who has bought the Continentals what s the wear like compared to the Michelins? I don't think Conti does an N rated, but enough feedback from users to say they are very good and suit the 911 well. Wear rate is crap by all accounts. Users are saying 8-10k on the rear where they would get 12-14k on PS4S's. If you got 20k from a PS4S like some who daily do, then it might be 14k or so on the Contis. To be honest, that would last me 2 years, so that would be fine with me. I change my tyres at 4 or 5 years old regardless, the minute you can feel the grip drop off in the cold is when they have to go, often the front still have 4-5mm left.

And what does NA0 mean ? I know that ND0 is just a Documented NO rating ... ??

NA0 is I believe Original Equipment Certification. Every day is a school day (I googled it)

ChrisW. said: And what does NA0 mean ? I know that ND0 is just a Documented NO rating ... ?? IIRC you're running 325 30 r21 PS4S NDO on a 991.2 GT3 RS? Fitted to 12.5 inch wide wheels? That tyre is obviously N rated but it was designed and signed off for the Panamera Turbo S Hybrid which runs 11.5 inch rims. So designed for a two and a half tonne four wheel drive barge rather than a 1450kg rear engined rwd track biased car. If I do recall correctly Chris, how does it feel on them? If I'm barking up the wrong tree, then please ignore everything above.

TrevorHill said: I m a careful enough driver, I ve used launch control possibly no more than three times across five cars over almost a decade and I consider 8k miles to be quite reasonable for a set of rear PS4S s. Same here, and the users who are only getting 7-8k from a rear PS4S's are only getting 5-6k from the Contis or Bridgestones. But If I say the Contis are getting 5k the driver who is getting 12k from the PS4S will say "Well they are a load of s te then!" Basically expect to get 70-80% as good from them as the Michelins.

ChrisW. said: And what does NA0 mean ? I know that ND0 is just a Documented NO rating ... ?? Updated OEM Ratings from Porsche been around for a while NAx is 911 NBx is Boxster/Cayman (though I’ve never seen any with this yet) NCx is Cayenne NDx is Panamera NEx is Macan NFx is Taycan Makes sense to avoid the issue described of fitting SUV/ Saloon tyres to a sportier model with similar size wheels.

Tripe Bypass said: ChrisW. said: And what does NA0 mean ? I know that ND0 is just a Documented NO rating ... ?? IIRC you're running 325 30 r21 PS4S NDO on a 991.2 GT3 RS? Fitted to 12.5 inch wide wheels? That tyre is obviously N rated but it was designed and signed off for the Panamera Turbo S Hybrid which runs 11.5 inch rims. So designed for a two and a half tonne four wheel drive barge rather than a 1450kg rear engined rwd track biased car. If I do recall correctly Chris, how does it feel on them? If I'm barking up the wrong tree, then please ignore everything above. My PS4S are N0 which were ? for 911 and pre-date all the options (bought two years ago). But ... if you look at tyre suppliers it often only denotes the rating for car brand, not model range ... hence my question ...

ChrisW. said: My PS4S are N0 which were ? for 911 and pre-date all the options (bought two years ago). But ... if you look at tyre suppliers it often only denotes the rating for car brand, not model range ... hence my question ... The three letter codes replace the two letter ones - they’ve been around for a couple of years but not many suppliers are using them yet. Provided you have the correct speed rating and sidewall stiffness you will be fine - point is an N0 tyre of itself does not mean it’s right for all Porsche models.

ChrisW. said: Tripe Bypass said: ChrisW. said: And what does NA0 mean ? I know that ND0 is just a Documented NO rating ... ?? IIRC you're running 325 30 r21 PS4S NDO on a 991.2 GT3 RS? Fitted to 12.5 inch wide wheels? That tyre is obviously N rated but it was designed and signed off for the Panamera Turbo S Hybrid which runs 11.5 inch rims. So designed for a two and a half tonne four wheel drive barge rather than a 1450kg rear engined rwd track biased car. If I do recall correctly Chris, how does it feel on them? If I'm barking up the wrong tree, then please ignore everything above. My PS4S are N0 which were ? for 911 and pre-date all the options (bought two years ago). But ... if you look at tyre suppliers it often only denotes the rating for car brand, not model range ... hence my question ... Have a shufti at this https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-gt2rs-an...

I think the tyres you have on your car are for the Panamera but are from a time before the NDO reclassification. But I might very well be wrong. If they seem fine to you then that's all that matters.

I m a careful enough driver, I ve used launch control possibly no more than three times across five cars over almost a decade and I consider 8k miles to be quite reasonable for a set of rear PS4S s. At the moment my mileage is split between two GT4s. As old age creeps up I m using the car sans buckets a lot more. I find it amazing and astonishing that people are getting much more miles than I am. I might have to reconsider my current approach to driving. But as I tell everyone you re a long time dead. Edited by TrevorHill on Tuesday 23 December 18:11

Ed.Neumann said: Same here, and the users who are only getting 7-8k from a rear PS4S's are only getting 5-6k from the Contis or Bridgestones. But If I say the Contis are getting 5k the driver who is getting 12k from the PS4S will say "Well they are a load of s te then!" Basically expect to get 70-80% as good from them as the Michelins. i'm at 7-8kish on my SC7 and have 4-ish mm left on them

If the majority of your driving is on the street in the UK and you’re not a hooligan driver breaking speed limits everywhere, obsessing over tyres for these cars with PASM, PSM and 295 rear section tyres, for the most part, you’re not confident in the dynamics of the car. It really is very difficult to lose these cars on the road whatever tyres you’ve got on the car. Tyres are not the issue, it’s individual confidence that folk should work on. Once you do, the 997/996 platform, especially in 2wd format, are one of the best handling cars on the road. Remember, ultimate handling of a car doesn’t come from tyres only. There’s more to it.

maz8062 said: If the majority of your driving is on the street in the UK and you re not a hooligan driver breaking speed limits everywhere, obsessing over tyres for these cars with PASM, PSM and 295 rear section tyres, for the most part, you re not confident in the dynamics of the car. It really is very difficult to lose these cars on the road whatever tyres you ve got on the car. Tyres are not the issue, it s individual confidence that folk should work on. Once you do, the 997/996 platform, especially in 2wd format, are one of the best handling cars on the road. Remember, ultimate handling of a car doesn t come from tyres only. There s more to it. Utter nonsense. If that were true then why do so many drivers end up in the ditch/wall/drink delete as appropriate. I had lunch yesterday with a current Bugatti/Rimac test driver and even he stressed the importance of tyres. I had recently swapped from Cup 2s to PS4Ss and he said that although he preferred the Cup 2 on a summer day he can see the reasoning behind switching to PS4S’s. There is a lot more to an N rated tyre than the usual Porsche marketing speel. So what does the man who drives multi million euro cars every day drive to work? A Land Cruiser. Though he did say that his ideal car is a GT3 911, but not the RS.

John D. said: ChrisW. said: Possibly the case that newer tyres could be better -- if available in the right size -- it would be useful if Porsche could keep us informed but I guess they get a cut out of an N rating and wouldn't use non-N rated tyres on new cars ... ?? How would Porsche know? They'd have to test each new tyre on old models to find out. Which they claim they do.

I have non-N rated Michelin PS4s, which are great for the road. I’m struggling however to imagine that the N rating makes any significant difference to the compound. It is easy though to imagine the business model whereby tyre manufacturers look to establish market share and car manufacturers secure a discount.

Grantstown said: I have non-N rated Michelin PS4s, which are great for the road. I m struggling however to imagine that the N rating makes any significant difference to the compound. It is easy though to imagine the business model whereby tyre manufacturers look to establish market share and car manufacturers secure a discount. Probably not too different to what other manufacturers do. Here is a BMW version of a tyre compared to the standard version.

Why is an 'N' rated tyre the best choice for a 911 with its rear weight bias, also the choice for a midengined Boxter/Cayman? And also a big SUV Cayanne. These cars all have different handling characteristics.

wong said: Why is an 'N' rated tyre the best choice for a 911 with its rear weight bias, also the choice for a midengined Boxter/Cayman? And also a big SUV Cayanne. These cars all have different handling characteristics. All will be different in construction, and marked with a different N code to reflect that.

TrevorHill said: Utter nonsense. If that were true then why do so many drivers end up in the ditch/wall/drink delete as appropriate. I had lunch yesterday with a current Bugatti/Rimac test driver and even he stressed the importance of tyres. I had recently swapped from Cup 2s to PS4Ss and he said that although he preferred the Cup 2 on a summer day he can see the reasoning behind switching to PS4S s. There is a lot more to an N rated tyre than the usual Porsche marketing speel. So what does the man who drives multi million euro cars every day drive to work? A Land Cruiser. Though he did say that his ideal car is a GT3 911, but not the RS. A Bugatti has 1000 bhp and can hit 240 mph. A Rimac has 2000 bhp. To sell either to mere mortals they have to be shod with tyres that can handle the speed, even though 99.99% of owners will pootle around being seen and heard for show purposes. A tester for these cars is talking from a different world to you and I. Tyres for the street in the Uk are barely breaking a sweat whatever make or compound you put on the car. If you own a Porsche, take a minute to check your computer for your average speed. In the UK, if it is 50 mph, you’re either up and down the motorway or live in Wales, Scotland, IOM, or places with good roads, lax policing and few other motorists. For the rest of us an average speed of 30 mph, likely much less, will be good going, so why do I need Y rated tyres when H or V would suffice? The answer is that a Porsche can do 180 mph - it had to have the appropriate tyres. My point is, don’t overthink it. Don’t get suckered into the marketing nonsense that says that a given tyre, driven around a track at 8/10ths is the one to go for when it won’t mirror your driving conditions. Just buy what Porsche suggests and be done with it. But we live in a society dominated by consumerism and mindless marketing. The internet encourages folk to buy stuff because others are buying it. Sometimes it is great, oftentimes it is directed at the lazy, follow the herd types. It is not a wrong approach if it gives individuals confidence to drive the cars, but Porsche has engineered safety that would take a fool, bad luck or an accident to come unstuck because of tyres driving on the street. If you haven’t, drive a Boxster - those things stick to the road like white on rice. Folk in the Boxster forums barely talk about tyres because, in my view, the car is easy to drive. 911’s, not so.

Kawasicki said: wong said: Why is an 'N' rated tyre the best choice for a 911 with its rear weight bias, also the choice for a midengined Boxter/Cayman? And also a big SUV Cayanne. These cars all have different handling characteristics. All will be different in construction, and marked with a different N code to reflect that. Those individual construction differences MAY be true today, but only since they introduced the NA NB NC ND NE NF codes (as above) circa 2022. ...and can you actually buy any other than the NA tyres?

Orangecurry said: Those individual construction differences MAY be true today, but only since they introduced the NA NB NC ND NE NF codes (as above) circa 2022. ...and can you actually buy any other than the NA tyres? Yes, you will see all of the above (except possibly NB 718, which I have not seen) on new vehicles next time you're in an OPC. And not just limited to the usual Pirelli, GY, Michelin etc. - you can now buy a Nexen with Porsche approval

maz8062 said: A Bugatti has 1000 bhp and can hit 240 mph. A Rimac has 2000 bhp. To sell either to mere mortals they have to be shod with tyres that can handle the speed, even though 99.99% of owners will pootle around being seen and heard for show purposes. A tester for these cars is talking from a different world to you and I. Tyres for the street in the Uk are barely breaking a sweat whatever make or compound you put on the car. If you own a Porsche, take a minute to check your computer for your average speed. In the UK, if it is 50 mph, you re either up and down the motorway or live in Wales, Scotland, IOM, or places with good roads, lax policing and few other motorists. For the rest of us an average speed of 30 mph, likely much less, will be good going, so why do I need Y rated tyres when H or V would suffice? The answer is that a Porsche can do 180 mph - it had to have the appropriate tyres. My point is, don t overthink it. Don t get suckered into the marketing nonsense that says that a given tyre, driven around a track at 8/10ths is the one to go for when it won t mirror your driving conditions. Just buy what Porsche suggests and be done with it. But we live in a society dominated by consumerism and mindless marketing. The internet encourages folk to buy stuff because others are buying it. Sometimes it is great, oftentimes it is directed at the lazy, follow the herd types. It is not a wrong approach if it gives individuals confidence to drive the cars, but Porsche has engineered safety that would take a fool, bad luck or an accident to come unstuck because of tyres driving on the street. If you haven t, drive a Boxster - those things stick to the road like white on rice. Folk in the Boxster forums barely talk about tyres because, in my view, the car is easy to drive. 911 s, not so. I've got a 2.5 Cayman and on the Pirellis found it to be quite skittish in typical damp, Scottish weather. It didn't need much to have the rear end moving slightly, even just on roads you can have fun on while respecting the speed limit. Since moving to the Contis it's been much predictable, even when stepping on it.

jeebsy said: maz8062 said: A Bugatti has 1000 bhp and can hit 240 mph. A Rimac has 2000 bhp. To sell either to mere mortals they have to be shod with tyres that can handle the speed, even though 99.99% of owners will pootle around being seen and heard for show purposes. A tester for these cars is talking from a different world to you and I. Tyres for the street in the Uk are barely breaking a sweat whatever make or compound you put on the car. If you own a Porsche, take a minute to check your computer for your average speed. In the UK, if it is 50 mph, you re either up and down the motorway or live in Wales, Scotland, IOM, or places with good roads, lax policing and few other motorists. For the rest of us an average speed of 30 mph, likely much less, will be good going, so why do I need Y rated tyres when H or V would suffice? The answer is that a Porsche can do 180 mph - it had to have the appropriate tyres. My point is, don t overthink it. Don t get suckered into the marketing nonsense that says that a given tyre, driven around a track at 8/10ths is the one to go for when it won t mirror your driving conditions. Just buy what Porsche suggests and be done with it. But we live in a society dominated by consumerism and mindless marketing. The internet encourages folk to buy stuff because others are buying it. Sometimes it is great, oftentimes it is directed at the lazy, follow the herd types. It is not a wrong approach if it gives individuals confidence to drive the cars, but Porsche has engineered safety that would take a fool, bad luck or an accident to come unstuck because of tyres driving on the street. If you haven t, drive a Boxster - those things stick to the road like white on rice. Folk in the Boxster forums barely talk about tyres because, in my view, the car is easy to drive. 911 s, not so. I've got a 2.5 Cayman and on the Pirellis found it to be quite skittish in typical damp, Scottish weather. It didn't need much to have the rear end moving slightly, even just on roads you can have fun on while respecting the speed limit. Since moving to the Contis it's been much predictable, even when stepping on it. First thing I did on my 2.0 was to switch out the Pirelli’s for Goodyears. Such an improvement, Pirelli’s really did not like damp wet & cold..

My last comment on this thread - this video is typically how most of us drive on the road , not the track. N rated tyres have you covered - no need to spend more on the internet champion, Porsche have already done the job for you. I’ll admit when I first bought my 997 C2 to being in awe of the thing. I remembered the stories of the G body cars, the widow maker and kind of approached the car with trepidation, so much so that bought a set of Cup 2’s to give me maximum grip in dry conditions. I soon came to realise that it is not the tyres per se, it’s the driver, the conditions, the confidence, and luck. The good thing about the internet is that there are different opinions, and we’re all right. The op can go in whichever direction they choose and it won’t be wrong. Enjoy. https://youtu.be/x6QVNzktthU?si=rUhrfLYGqCnqUf6x

Just taken delivery of my 992.2 GT3 All looks good not driven it yet awaiting PPF. A possible down side is that it has arrived on PIRELLI P ZERO R's & all my previous GT3's have been on Cup 2's. Has any body got experience of the R's on track. Any hints would be helpful.

Pumper2 said: Just taken delivery of my 992.2 GT3 All looks good not driven it yet awaiting PPF. A possible down side is that it has arrived on PIRELLI P ZERO R's & all my previous GT3's have been on Cup 2's. Has any body got experience of the R's on track. Any hints would be helpful. I believe the Pzero R are meant to be a bit of a halfway house between the trofeo and the 'normal' Pzero road tyre but without the stickier corsa compound. probably ends up more like a PS4S than a Cup2 tbh....

jeebsy said: I've got a 2.5 Cayman and on the Pirellis found it to be quite skittish in typical damp, Scottish weather. It didn't need much to have the rear end moving slightly, even just on roads you can have fun on while respecting the speed limit. Since moving to the Contis it's been much predictable, even when stepping on it. 100% agree with you on this, also when PZeros lose it, it's a cliff edge and not linear like most high performance tyres. Sh*test tyres ever for the damp in my opinion. Edited by FriedMarsBar on Saturday 3rd January 13:40

Don't forget to adjust your tyre pressures as the ambient temps rise or fall.

maz8062 said: A Bugatti has 1000 bhp and can hit 240 mph. A Rimac has 2000 bhp. To sell either to mere mortals they have to be shod with tyres that can handle the speed, even though 99.99% of owners will pootle around being seen and heard for show purposes. A tester for these cars is talking from a different world to you and I. Tyres for the street in the Uk are barely breaking a sweat whatever make or compound you put on the car. If you own a Porsche, take a minute to check your computer for your average speed. In the UK, if it is 50 mph, you re either up and down the motorway or live in Wales, Scotland, IOM, or places with good roads, lax policing and few other motorists. For the rest of us an average speed of 30 mph, likely much less, will be good going, so why do I need Y rated tyres when H or V would suffice? The answer is that a Porsche can do 180 mph - it had to have the appropriate tyres. My point is, don t overthink it. Don t get suckered into the marketing nonsense that says that a given tyre, driven around a track at 8/10ths is the one to go for when it won t mirror your driving conditions. Just buy what Porsche suggests and be done with it. But we live in a society dominated by consumerism and mindless marketing. The internet encourages folk to buy stuff because others are buying it. Sometimes it is great, oftentimes it is directed at the lazy, follow the herd types. It is not a wrong approach if it gives individuals confidence to drive the cars, but Porsche has engineered safety that would take a fool, bad luck or an accident to come unstuck because of tyres driving on the street. If you haven t, drive a Boxster - those things stick to the road like white on rice. Folk in the Boxster forums barely talk about tyres because, in my view, the car is easy to drive. 911 s, not so. You have missed the point entirely, but we can agree to disagree. Or not. Miro Zrncevic does a lot of testing and development, not just for Rimac and Bugatti, but for other well known car companies. I have a deposit on a certain electric vehicle which has been delayed a number of times and he has been working with the manufacturer. He told me not touch buy it, it will be as bad if not worse than the current electric vehicle from the same German car manufacturer. Consumerism, I suppose we are al victims to a certain extent, but I have been buying my tyres off the same person for thirty ish years. He always fits N rated tyres to any of my Porsches and I think he might know what he’s doing. It’s his livelihood. I was running late this afternoon and had to rush to make the ferry. A nice wee drive along some an A road and then about 40 miles across the edge of the Mournes and along them coast. I’m glad I got rid of the Cup 2s.

It might not happen often, but it happens often enough.

LunarOne said: It might not happen often, but it happens often enough. Agreed. Most of my everyday driving is in a Volvo XC90. I stick to the speed limits as I value my licence too much. But we live in a very rural area and it’s pretty quiet at this time of the year. I can enjoy a spirited drive when conditions allow.

TrevorHill said: LunarOne said: It might not happen often, but it happens often enough. Agreed. Most of my everyday driving is in a Volvo XC90. I stick to the speed limits as I value my licence too much. But we live in a very rural area and it s pretty quiet at this time of the year. I can enjoy a spirited drive when conditions allow. I was actually talking about cleaning the interior of my car, but still!!