Lemon

After 2 years of ownership and listening to this forum and other sources, I have come to the conclusion the 996 is a lemon. There is no relaxation in ownership thinking what a fine piece of engineering you have invested in. Instead its a constant worry about what is going to go wrong next. Discuss.

Mine (1999 996 c2) is excellent and I have nothing but praise for it. 4 oils leaks covered by extended warranty and outstanding service from OPC Wilslow. The car drives great and I love it. Because of the warranty I drive it as it was designed for (like I stole it) and I will have another. Discussed

Had two - '98 3.4 and '02 3.6. Both were excellent. The 3.4 was obviously an early 996, but I had no problems with it. However, I felt the 3.6 'facelift' was noticeably better in lots of key areas. Few cars are perfect, but a good 996 combines an amazing blend of value, practicality and quality in a 'junior supercar' package. As with any sophisticated performance car, it's best to maintain the official warranty if you are a worrier though.

I've had a '98 C2 for 2 1/2 years now with no major problems. I think views can tend to get distorted by a lot of the threads on this and other forums. You only see the bad side of things, and a few people making a lot of noise are louder than the vast majority who make little noise at all. I'm sure if you go to a Mercedes or BMW forum you would pick up the same impression about most of their models.

I owned a 98 C2 in 1998, 99 C2 Cab in 1999, a 00 C4 coupe in 2000, 01 Turbo in 2001, 02 Turbo in 2002, 02 GT2 in 2002 (for three years) an 03 GT3 in 2003 and I currently own a 2005 Cup car. They were all excellent cars with no major problems (except those caused by the OPC during servicing!) and ran beautifully for many, many miles. On the other side, I've owned an '05 BMW M5 since new and the bloody thing is forever failing - 'gearbox failure' on the computer every few weeks, EML light comes on the dash, sat nav stopped working completely, you name it - it's gone wrong. A brand new Range Rover in 2001 spent three months at the dealer and ended up in a refund, a replacement L322 (new shape) in '02 played up constantly, a brand new SL55 ended up going back to the dealer so often I forgot I owned it, an Aston Vanquish caught fire the day I collected it.... In my opinion, all modern cars stink. Porsche built their reputation on the back of the 'bullet proof' cars up to 993 - the 996 and onwards is just too complicated as they try and keep pace with modern technology and customer requirements. My 1973 2.7 is, however, an excellent example of engineering that I plan on keeping for ever Just drive it and enjoy it - all new cars break - it's just the way things go.... P

PMJT, I think you sum up my feelings exactly. I had a Carrera 3.2 before and it felt like it would go on forever. A bit crude in places but a thoroughbred nevertheless. My 996 just does not give that same feeling of quality. The car had 50k miles when a bought it from a reputable specialist. Fully stamped up book which I have maintained and the car now stands at 67k. But I first had to return the car with a leak from the nearside rad. Then it was new front brakes to cure a judder. Then the other rad blew. Then it developed a mystery misfire that the PST2 could not diagnose. Then changing the rear pads and shoes turned into a 4 figure fiasco of siezed caliper bolts and a lengthening list of parts to put it right. I'm just waiting for the bloody RMS to give up the ghost now!! And that's without counting the Porsche recall for RUST on the bootlid and a faulty hood mechanism. Anyway, I'm glad to hear from other owners who have had a good experience. I don't think its fair to compare Porsche to other supercars with regards to reliability because Porsche was always head and shoulders above capricious beasts like Ferraris and such like. I would only compare with their own high standards from before. It's well documented that the Porsche bean counters felt the 993 was massively overengineered and so slashed production costs to get the Boxster/996 to market. The move may have saved the company but at what cost to the ultimate quality of the artifact?

Ouch - you have my sympathy - it's just not nice when you spend all that dosh on buying the thing and it plays up. You've had a bad run - hopefully things will settle down now [ ] Having owned most of them - the 996's (not felt the urge for a 997 yet) *were* head and shoulders ahead of the Ferrari / Aston / Bently in terms of quality and reliability - WHEN YOU factor their cost against the other supercars. Bang for buck they were leagues ahead. Something I always mention when people ask me about buying a 996 - my 1966 and 1967 2.0ltrs were the price of TWO E-Type Jags when new - put that in today's money and the base 2.0S would be over 120,000 pounds today. Taking the same broad rule of inflation and you get: The 2.7RS was comprable to around 170,000 in today's money. The 993 Turbo was comprable to around 160,000 in today's money. The 996 is around 55,000 to 65,000 (excluing exotica such as Turbos) - you can't make a car for half the retail price, make a profit and still have the same quality - the maths just don't add up. For *my* money, I'd be drawn to a modern road Porsche if the cars were still built to the quality level of the old cars - even if they were priced accordingly (over 120,000 for the entry level) - the problem is Porsche wanted to go for market share and profit - and if I was running the company, I couldn't really say I'd do otherwise. IMHO you cannot compare anything from Zuffenhausen to that from Ferrari or Aston - for a start, Ferrari's opening price is more than the highest spec. 997 Turbo - they're made to do different things and appeal to different people. That's why the value of early cars is so strong - they're just better [ ] Hope things do settle down with your 996 [ ] P

Perhaps, but then you have to consider that only 2 posts before yours a guy has had 4 (four!) oil leaks and 2 posts after yours a guy has a list of problems....so maybe peoples views are just of what is actually posted....

Ah but my oils leaks were due to racing motorbikes all the time!!! To be fair two were the same leak but they didnt fix it properly... Its more reliable than my previous BMWs and they were more expensive to service too.

Yes, but Simon (blease) was the starter of the thread, and Bull996 has nothing but praise for his car. People seem to bang on about the bullet proof aircooled cars, but I think they are looking through rose-tinted glasses. I don't think there is a Porsche (or any other car for that matter) without some Achilles heel or other. The 964 and 993 certainly weren't exempt. Modern Porsches are completely different cars to the older models. Generally speaking though, IMHO, the benefits outweigh the shortcomings. We can probably agree to disagree on that, if you like.[ ][ ].

Agreed. I just wish there were less people continually commenting on the reliability of the 996 and usually with with 'major' issues then I might persuade myself they are a good idea as a daily run around.....I so want to be convinced but just don't have the budget if the believers are wrong[&o]

I don't think there are enough comments about 996 reliability. Threads on here are mostly doom and gloom about the cars and the dealers. I've done about 25000 miles in the 996 as a daily drive (72K on the clock), and prior to that around 20000 in my 993. I know which is the easier to get on with, and cheaper to run (for me, anyway). I haven't had any warranty on either of them as I figure that rebuilding an 8 year old 996 engine after major failure will cost about the same as that in a ten year old 993, and my gamble is that it won't happen. I can live with the occasional stuff like seized caliper bolts (it happened to me last week, but £40 in labour and TimeSert inserts cured it). I'll take the risk of a major disaster, just like I have done in all of the 30 or so cars I have owned over the years. I figure I'm ahead by now, and as long as I have the cash in the bank to cover a disaster, I'll keep running the 996. If I wanted a safe drive I'd go and buy a Honda Civic and extend the warranty as long as possible. You might call me foolhardy, but we all have a different perspective. [ ][ ]

Went to get my car out of the garage this morning for a bit of Sunday pampering and there is a bloody puddle under the nearside rad again!!!! Chuffin' hell. Please believe me, I really want to love my 996, just like I loved my 3.2 but it's doing its damndest to play hard to get! I agree, the older cars were not perfect (what car is?) but their relative simplicity made problems easier to fix. Good points about relative costs though. Therefore 40K for an Autofarm/Paul Stephens 2.7RS recreation seems like the best bargain of all.!

Coolant or water drain from the aircon?

I really, really hope its the latter. I hoped that last time but, no, it was the bloody rad. Keeping an eye on the level in the expansion chamber with fingers crossed.

Richard, I am pleased for the people who have had reliable 996's but I didn't. After working my way up I had a 964, two 993's which never let me down, I then took the plunge and spent £37K on a 996 C4 from there the rot set in, for a short period after getting rid of the car I drove a Boxster 'S' (which had a new engine I have to add under warranty!) for a short while but missed the 911, so I gave the 996 a second chance and purchased a C2...... just won't go there and the car was traded in. Both 996's were purchased from respectable independents and I do not see why people should have to buy a yearly warranty to cover design flaws or whatever. I do miss the performance sometimes but not the hassle I had in getting the car repaired. I am now back in 964 ownership with no issues except a new alternator that I had to buy, but the car is 13+ years old so expected. I so think the build quality was better on the older cars and not going to spark an all out debate. Mark

I hope so too, but if you've already had the rad changed it should be covered by the two year parts warranty.

No, I don't want to do that either. If the car was a weekend-only drive for me, I'd go for the 993 every time. Much more raw and visceral - from a different era of motoring. It's disappointing that you didn't have better experiences with later models. How about some comments by others about the positive experiences?

I'm probably tempting fate here - over the last twenty odd years I've been fortunate enough to have owned quite a few of the models, 924, 944, 944S, 964, 993, 996C2 and 997S plus the odd Boxster, Boxster S and Cayenne. I can hand on heart say I've never had any serious failures - mostly niggles that were dealt with as recalls or under warranty. An oil leak I was unaware of was fixed under warranty on the 996 which with hidsight might have been RMS, but never asked the question at the time, as I'd never heard of that problem. Sure I've now got a shiny new 997S which is brilliant, but some of my early Porsches were well used 90,000 milers. The Cayenne is up to nearly 50,000 and a fine car, and my son now has an '86 944 with 100k on the clock that runs like a train. I'm fortunate, I guess, but talk to owners of some of the alternatives and I think we get a pretty good product. Astons? you'd better have deep pockets and the patience of Job as you complete their development for them - Ferrari? servicing every five minutes and expensive, Jaguar? - watch those residuals plummet, TVR? the stories really are true. Bad luck if you have a lemon, but keep the faith as Fred Hampton would say. Peter

Like Peter I hope that I am not tempting fate..... I have had my 1998 C2 (73,000miles) for around a year and it has been fantastic. Everything works, the RMS is completely dry, it hasn't used a drop of oil in 6,000 miles and having thoroughly thrashed it at Milbrook a couple of months ago I am still in complete awe of its dynamic capabilities. In the past I had a 10 year old 964 C2 cab for 2 years and had nothing but problems. It leaked oil like a sieve, needed a complete overhaul of the entire braking and suspension systems and the electrics had a mind of their own. I think that I spent around £8k plus the standard services. I replaced it with a 1979 SC for all the reasons of simplicity and solidity mentioned by others. Within a month or so the rear crankshaft oil seal expired in a spectacular fashion on the A12 spraying oil everywhere and a major bill followed soon after. The gearbox and engine were clearly heading towards rebuild time, you could almost hear the tin worm eating the bodywork and I still have absolutely no idea how you were supposed to get any warmth from the heater. Before I bought the 996 I drove it and a similarly priced (£28k) 993 back to back. One felt taught, quick, responsive and one felt old. When I change my 996 it will be for another. Malcolm

I agree totally with Bull996 and MMacD!! I love my 996 and granted it's only done 5.6K miles as it's a pampered 3rd car. What a superb car in all aspects - except of course I have to stop to get the roof up and down, yet even the wife's Z4 can be done on the move. Before I bought the 996 I tried out quite a few 993S's as at the time that is what I wanted after my very low mileage SC. To be honest the 993's felt old as old fashioned as old as my SC in many aspects but I perceived as I really wanted what most other enthusiasts wanted - the 993S. The rot set in when my wife said one day " ... were not going to look at another stinker are we?...." She meant a 993. It was then I realised that I was being misled and following the diehard pack for a 993 and not what I (and wife) really wanted - a truly modern Porsche that set high standards in driveability, comfort and reliability! Just the job for a spaz like me with a poorly back! I've never regretted it and it is the best Porsche I have owned (4th). All this talk about unreliability and how everyone jumps on the bandwagon saying the same things to knock the 996 is really quite pointless really. It's only because the internet and forums like this that have recently developed to give us all a broader audience to in which to air our views - good or bad. An oil leak from the RMS - so what! Just imagine what the 964 section of this forum would have been like in the early 90's with all the problems they had with the dual mass flywheel, distributor drive and oil leak problems. I could hazard a guess that the 996 problems on this forum would pale into insignificance.

Why not get a SmartTop roof control. Advertised in PP, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, apart from the fact that there are known 964 engine numbers after which the problems are solved, and the 993 engine suffers much less from them, as the problems were engineered out. The RMS is an ongoing saga over 8 years, with several attempts at a fix. The other problem with the car is the intermediate shaft, which is much more serious, and again the same engine design is being used to this day. In the past (sounds of violins etc) these problems would have been fixed much more quickly, that was one of the appeals of a Porsche, each new model learnt from the lessons of the previous models, and the engineers were allowed to develop a better car each time. The appearence of RMS leaks on 997's is incredibly dissapointing in this respect my 2p Pete

Peter, I was not jumping on the bandwagon, and as someone who has had 10 Porsches, it was quite sad for me to have two 996's which were bloody awful in reliability; in both instances the cars were purchased from well known independents. Bearing in mind I actually went back to a 996 in between having a Boxster 'S' which needed a new engine (under warranty). I actually went through the upgrade from 964 , 993, to 996. I think Porsche should have by now ironed out the design flaws on each new model. Mark

Richard Not a 996 but my 986 has 87k miles (all mine) on it with a split expansion tank as the only minus. JCB..

A good discussion, for which thanks. I really did not want to start this thread as I am a porschophile. I know about poor engineering having come up through the ranks of British and Italian motorcycles, a Hillman Imp and an Austin Montego (cringe!!!). What I loved so much about my first Porsche was that tactile contact with quality engineering. The 996 is brilliant when it's going. But something has been lost in the translation from specialist sportscar to mass produced vehicle. I, too, went down the 996 route to be able to involve my wife who viewed the Carrera 3.2 as a smelly, old, noisy and uncomfortable dinosaur. And, yes, that 915 box was a bugger, but I loved the thrill of getting a change 'just so'. A boy thing I guess. But it never let me down or emptied my pockets unless I wanted to. Someone inherited a loved old 3.2 with brand new suspension and brakes, set up for track work. Ho hum.

Wow! We are censored!!! I typed 'bugger' in the last reply and it came out 'bugger'!! Come PCGB, we are all consenting adults here!

We may be consenting adults, but lot's of companies firewalls will block access to sites containing certain words. So, do you want PCGB to be blocked by company firewalls or not? [&:]

I can think of loads of four letter bad words..... wont list them though [ ]

Just picked up this thread. Just to add my experiences to the discusson, I've had 8 Porsches (7 of them 911's). In my opinion the best were my first one, a 911 SC and my current car, a 996 (although this is a turbo). Only problem in 3½ years being a battery drain due to a sticking electronic seat relay and recently a replacement battery.

I've copied this from another 996 thread but: There's a good article in this month Totally 911 on the true facts on the 996 engine design issues (go into W H Smith and read it in your lunch time!) makes for interesting reading on the whole topic. Porsche has been slowly trying to address the design faults through the evolution of the 996 engine, but these engines are not as bullet proof or as strong as the original dry sump design, hence the GT2/3 & Turbos' still use the old design Still a 5-10% failure rate is very low compared to other manufacturers but high compared to the old models

Depressingly, the 'leak' turns out to be the nearside rad again. The censoring software put 4 stars in the place of the 7 letter word meaning 'unmarried mothers son'. I suppose I should have typed b**tard!

I picked my car up two weeks ago (996 C4S 2002). Within days I took it to Sports and Classic to look investigate why it was using coolant. Michael diagnosed both radiators as faulty and needed replacing. The broker I bought it from did not believe him so sent a flat bed lorry and took it to Bob Watson in Oxford. He agreed and replaced both radiators. I picked it back up on Wednesday. Noticed it leaking again on Thursday and had it flat bedded back to Bob on Friday It appears that the O rings in the hoses and knackered and are now being replaced. I should get the car back on Mon or Tuesday. Hopefully thats it and the car is great from now on. Initial thoughts are that the car is great though. I did have Michael look at it to check everything else. All good, phew and I joined the PCGB at Goodwood on Friday

Yeah, when it's going well, it is a great car. My cab can be a naff hairdressery boulevard cruiser, a comfortable, rapid Grande Tourer or a salivating balls-out track day thrasher. It really has all those characters. But the price is mounting up and it is just so disappointing to see problems arising that you know are due to the accountants getting the upper hand over the engineers. Not what attracted me to Porsche in the first place. OK, I admit it, I take the Clarkson view of the world that Brunel was a better man than anf money man you could shake a stick at!

993's are not immune - I've spent £3k on mine this year, clutch/steering rack/window problems/drive shaft gaitors/battery/geometry checks/etc !!

Hi Mate, Both my 996 C4 radiators have cracked this year costing me £1200. Its as soon as we get the hot weather and you hit the AirCon button, one radiator gets hot the other cold and the seals crack etc. Its VERY common i was told, but not covered under warranty (surprise surprise). Pressing a button on my dash board cost me £1200. I would like to add though, i think its a great car and not much comes close in terms of performance and looks. A few niggles over the years but nothing really major. Simon

The woe continues. Whilst in with a specialist having all the ignition coils changed (another 'common' problem!!) some a***hole scraped the nearside wing. Hoped to have the car for some cruisin' on my hols but that is fading into the distance! The only 'good' news is that the crappy coils are just £25 per pot unlike a previous Merc where they were £110 per pot!