Mystery Noise - 981 Cayman GTS - X73 Suspension - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Right, as is the way because life is truly unfair, I am trying to get my CGTS back into warranty via OPC. They have confirmed (somewhat oddly) that there is a strange bump,clonk noise from the rear of the car, when going over low speed speed bump leaving the OPC, so cannot pass the 111 point check, vis a vee cannot be warrantied. Confirmed their technicians to check over the car as likely a worn bush, trailing arm, joint, suspension component etc. Well they've had the car two days and cannot find, understand or explain what the noise is. No elaboration just a request for £600 to take out the interior trim. What is also more strange is the noise apparently has moved from the back to the front, so different technicians have differing opinions. It has been up on the ramp and out with three guys and they all have no clue what it could be. So mine has the X73 suspension, it has always made a bit of a clonk when going over speed bumps, and importantly, has always been warrantied and passed all 111 point checks for summer/winter/servicing etc with this clonk. Feels a bit fishy to me, I did have a warranty claim last year, so I am of the opinion, they don't want it rewarrantied etc. I am struggling to understand as they seem quite closed off to any further discussions unless I pay for "further investigation". They won't even posit what it could be, they don't know the location, just want to remove interior trim and investigate. Anyone else had a similar experience or know what this mysterious clunk could be?

A simple black and white situation, ask them for the cause of the knock if they can't find anything then nothing is wrong with it, saying there is a strange knock so there must be something wrong is nonsense, question their work pressure them and they will yield...you've paid good money after all. I had a similar thing with an OPC who was tasked to fix my aircon, they didn't want to commit on their work and said we think its ok...that is not a suitable answer.

Klippie said: A simple black and white situation, ask them for the cause of the knock if they can't find anything then nothing is wrong with it, saying there is a strange knock so there must be something wrong is nonsense, question their work pressure them and they will yield...you've paid good money after all. I had a similar thing with an OPC who was tasked to fix my aircon, they didn't want to commit on their work and said we think its ok...that is not a suitable answer. The trouble has I want to warranty the car but they want to charge me random figures to just explore, not even fix. This could go on forever and I still have to pay for the warranty. I think this is most likely due to the £4K of work I got on the warranty last year; but that’s why I pay a £800 warranty every year!

Why the need for the 111 point check, was the car serviced elsewhere then, or did you let the warranty expire?

981Boxess said: Why the need for the 111 point check, was the car serviced elsewhere then, or did you let the warranty expire? I like a moron missed the warranty renewal cut off as I was away in California at the time. That’s on me. Hence the need for the 111 check.

Swine Enthusiast said: The trouble has I want to warranty the car but they want to charge me random figures to just explore, not even fix. This could go on forever and I still have to pay for the warranty. I think this is most likely due to the £4K of work I got on the warranty last year; but that’s why I pay a £800 warranty every year! I don't think any previous claim has anything to do with it, they got paid to do it or it would not have got done, it was just another job to them, warranty rates are not far off retail rates nowadays. If the car has a problem and they don't know what is causing it all they can do is investigate until it is found and charge for their time. Not ideal from your side and no doubt the wrong place to be billed by the hour but how would you suggest they do it?

You’re being fleeced. Find another OPC, and preferably one without a speedhump… !!

981Boxess said: Swine Enthusiast said: The trouble has I want to warranty the car but they want to charge me random figures to just explore, not even fix. This could go on forever and I still have to pay for the warranty. I think this is most likely due to the £4K of work I got on the warranty last year; but that’s why I pay a £800 warranty every year! I don't think any previous claim has anything to do with it, they got paid to do it or it would not have got done, it was just another job to them, warranty rates are not far off retail rates nowadays. If the car has a problem and they don't know what is causing it all they can do is investigate until it is found and charge for their time. Not ideal from your side and no doubt the wrong place to be billed by the hour but how would you suggest they do it? I think the issue is they have raised this sole issue and confirmed it was a suspension issue (bush, arm etc). Now magically the noise has moved and it’s none of the original issues they believed it was. Originally a bump noise from the rear passenger side. Now it’s not there, it’s the front right.

Swine Enthusiast said: 981Boxess said: Swine Enthusiast said: The trouble has I want to warranty the car but they want to charge me random figures to just explore, not even fix. This could go on forever and I still have to pay for the warranty. I think this is most likely due to the £4K of work I got on the warranty last year; but that’s why I pay a £800 warranty every year! I don't think any previous claim has anything to do with it, they got paid to do it or it would not have got done, it was just another job to them, warranty rates are not far off retail rates nowadays. If the car has a problem and they don't know what is causing it all they can do is investigate until it is found and charge for their time. Not ideal from your side and no doubt the wrong place to be billed by the hour but how would you suggest they do it? I think the issue is they have raised this sole issue and confirmed it was a suspension issue (bush, arm etc). Now magically the noise has moved and it’s none of the original issues they believed it was. Originally a bump noise from the rear passenger side. Now it’s not there, it’s the front right. Pay them for the 111 check. Ask them to name the single issue (eg knock from OSF suspension) stopping them from renewing the warranty and get them to commit to renewing it if you go back with the car with that single issue resolved. Take it somewhere cheaper to get the work done if you cannot do it yourself.

Swine Enthusiast said: The trouble has I want to warranty the car but they want to charge me random figures to just explore, not even fix. This could go on forever and I still have to pay for the warranty. I think this is most likely due to the £4K of work I got on the warranty last year; but that’s why I pay a £800 warranty every year! You mentioned three of their Tech's had looked over your car and found nothing wrong...I'd hit straight with that " So three of your fully trained-up Porsche Tech's thoroughly checked my car over and coudn't find an issue...well why do I not have a pass on the 111 point check" honestly I would read them the riot act, get the service manager involved and basically call out their competency to fault find a car. An OPC is no different (as much as they like to think so) to any other dealer, if they provide bad service or something you are not happy with you have every right to tell them so.

OPCs don't pay any claims, not even Porsche does, the policy underwriter does, which was Zurich Ins last time I had an extended warranty from Porsche. In fact, OPCs get paid to carry out warranty work, so can't see why they'd be attempting to block a warranty application based on past claims. That said, I equally can't see how you're going to force them to do anything they don't want to do. If they are saying there's some kind of fault that needs to be fully diagnosed and rectified before renewal, that's the end of that story. I think all you can do is try a different OPC and hope they don't detect anything similar. You really don't want to be spending big time to put the car on the warranty, defeats the object of the whole thing.

f6box said: OPCs don't pay any claims, not even Porsche does, the policy underwriter does, which was Zurich Ins last time I had an extended warranty from Porsche. In fact, OPCs get paid to carry out warranty work, so can't see why they'd be attempting to block a warranty application based on past claims. That said, I equally can't see how you're going to force them to do anything they don't want to do. If they are saying there's some kind of fault that needs to be fully diagnosed and rectified before renewal, that's the end of that story. I think all you can do is try a different OPC and hope they don't detect anything similar. You really don't want to be spending big time to put the car on the warranty, defeats the object of the whole thing. Exactly, you have a potential fishing expedition. What made it really strange is the guy I've dealt with for 6 years has always been great but was very coy and cold, I joked "if you were to guess what could it be" he just said, we have no idea until we take the interior out etc" Like, you said suspension, now it could be anything. Weird weird weird.

Go to another OPC?

Swine Enthusiast said: What made it really strange is the guy I've dealt with for 6 years has always been great but was very coy and cold, I joked "if you were to guess what could it be" he just said, we have no idea until we take the interior out etc" I have no idea of what has gone here, only you do, but keep in mind anyone can have a bad day/week/whatever and that includes people that work in the motor game. Rule number one is don't guess what is wrong with a car, regardless of if the question starts with "I won't hold you to it but ..........." it will almost certainly come back and bite you in the harse. As for the suggestion of going in there and "hit straight with whatever" let me assure not only is that poor advice but it will guarantee you that you will get nowhere with that attitude. You get a lot further working with people than trying to win a fight.

Try Brooklands. I think they're a lot more spanner-happy and less corporate.

Take it to Center Gravity. Chris and Pete will check the suspsension, optimise the geo and pin pont the fault (and likely fix it there and then).

981Boxess said: I have no idea of what has gone here, only you do, but keep in mind anyone can have a bad day/week/whatever and that includes people that work in the motor game. Rule number one is don't guess what is wrong with a car, regardless of if the question starts with "I won't hold you to it but ..........." it will almost certainly come back and bite you in the harse. As for the suggestion of going in there and "hit straight with whatever" let me assure not only is that poor advice but it will guarantee you that you will get nowhere with that attitude. You get a lot further working with people than trying to win a fight. Excellent post. Phrases such as “read them the riot act” etc rarely end well. Request a conversation with the service manager, and failing that the dealer principal. I find that all to often service advisors don’t apply basic common sense to how they deal with problems such as this, rather they do everything by the “book procedure” (no doubt to cover their arses, so understandable) but rather they become more firmly entrenched in their stance, and sometimes it takes the application of a modicum of common sense by a manager to quickly circumvent a scenario such as the OP’s.

CloudStuff said: Try Brooklands. I think they're a lot more spanner-happy and less corporate . And therein lies the real issue.

If they think there's a fault, they think there's a fault. Rightly or wrongly. I'm not personally clear what the opportunity for negotiation is. All they can do is request permission to investigate the fault at this stage. If the owner thinks there's no fault, then there's something of an impasse. That said, if the fault has 'moved' to the front, presumably the interior no longer needs to be removed and diagnoses ought to be more straight forward?

One other thought, though the window for this might have closed if relationships have already soured. If the OP genuinely doubts the fault, one might request the fault be demonstrated with a technician onboard, especially given it's the OPC's speed bump that surfaced the problem and so it would not be much of an endeavour to demonstrate the fault. If the fault can't be demonstrated in that scenario, you'd be in a better position for a reasonable and constructive discussion regarding the actual existence of the fault and if it's grounds to decline to apply a warranty. To an extent that would also be true should they decline to demonstrate the fault. It would weaken their assertion. Not that any of this would force them to do anything, but it might at the very least help clear up that there is or isn't a fault, especially if they could clearly demonstrate there is a fault!

Update: The car is booked in for a second opinion with Paragon. I just want to get to the bottom of it, the noise has always been there in the three years since I bought the car from RPM Technik. Attributed to the stiff X73 suspension and given this has never elicited a response from the techs at OPC on previous 111 point checks, I am perplexed. It only happens on slow speed bumps. Even more so that they have checked, AC/Coolant pipes, engine mounts, suspension arms, bushes, mounts and all are fine. I want to find out what it is, rectify it and then warranty the car so hopefully Paragon are able to confirm the clonk noise and fix it, and or confirm it is just a normal noise of the car.

Swine Enthusiast said: Update: ... the noise has always been there in the three years since I bought the car from RPM Technik. Did you enquire with RPM at the time? What was their response? I had a 997 from them and after a couple of days it became apparent that there was as creaking when manouvering the car at low speed. My local Porsche independing agreed and so I called Greig and Ollie at RPM who sorted it no problem. Have always found RPM to be good when it comes to stepping up to address problems. Edited by churchie2856 on Saturday 19th April 10:26

On the 981 the two diagonal support bars/brace that sits under the car can come loose. Not loose enough to be obvious though. This can cause a loud clunk/thud coming off aggressive bumps. It is easy to check and doesn't cost any money, so definitely check it out. I would imagine if you put the rear wheels on some jackstands you should have more than enough room to test if they are loose. From memory, the bolt at the end that attaches to the body is only 30nm and than another 90 degrees, they are stretch bolts. My guess is someone removed them and didn't use new ones. I guess you could test if they are done up by seeing if they will do up any tighter with using 30nm. Or, actually start at 20nm and see if they move, if they do, you know they are loose. If they are loose you will need to replace all the bolts, but for now, just torque all loose ones to 30nm and see if they clunk has gone? Part number 9 and the bolts are 10 for body and 11 for rest of the brace. https://www.design911shop.com/diagrams/d/45797/0 Edited by Ed.Neumann on Saturday 19th April 23:10

UPDATE: Car is with Paragon Porsche today. Drive with the nice tech there and he was flabbergasted at how OPC could miss this and not be upfront and forthright with me regarding the issue. He was shocked and couldn't believe it. The fact they would not discuss where the noise is coming from, would not confirm their suspicions, justify etc and just offered to rip the interior on a wild goose chase was frankly ridiculous and really poor form. Seems like it is suspension related but will know more later today. I must admit, one of the stranger interactions I have had with an OPC.

So apparently it is the trailing arms; So it appears the techs at OPC Porsche did nothing with the vehicle for the two days they had, "investigating the noise" as the guys at Paragon can see the trailing arms haven't been looked at. They said to me "it might be the trailing arms" then they told me they checked everything and couldn't find anything. Not arms, bushes, joints, pipes, anyting, said it's a mystery! Utterly baffling. Edited by Swine Enthusiast on Monday 12th May 17:11

Trailing arms make a very distinct chatter when they go, any competent OPC mechanic should recognise the noise a mile away. Swine Enthusiast said: Update: I just want to get to the bottom of it, the noise has always been there in the three years since I bought the car from RPM Technik. Attributed to the stiff X73 suspension and given this has never elicited a response from the techs at OPC on previous 111 point checks, I am perplexed. It only happens on slow speed bumps. I have X73, but no clonks, etc, it's silent.

Did you check the support braces? Alot of owners have had the same issue and it is those braces I linked to above. It is free to check, you're just checking the bolts. Those rear trailing arms are expensive on the 981 for some reason, and if you want to get the warranty you will need Porsche arms, they are around £800 the pair. I would be checking those 8 bolts are tight before splashing out £800 on some arms to see if it is those. It could well be, but I would definitely check those bolts first. It will take 5 minutes.

SkinnyPete said: I have X73, but no clonks, etc, it's silent. On me to a point I suppose, but the car has always sounded like this I put it down to it being stiff. Once you're above 30mph you don't hear anything. For three years, since I collected at RPM technik it has made the same noise. In that time it has had 2x service at OPC, 3x 111 point checks, summer check, winter check, and warrantied for the three years. Also had work done with OPC. Strange never been picked up until now.... So while I should have picked up on it, the OPC has not either, at all.

Ed.Neumann said: Did you check the support braces? Alot of owners have had the same issue and it is those braces I linked to above. It is free to check, you're just checking the bolts. Those rear trailing arms are expensive on the 981 for some reason, and if you want to get the warranty you will need Porsche arms, they are around £800 the pair. I would be checking those 8 bolts are tight before splashing out £800 on some arms to see if it is those. It could well be, but I would definitely check those bolts first. It will take 5 minutes. Thanks, the car is with Paragon by the time I got your message and they are checking the entire car over to find the noise, they aren't just checking the trailing arms though but they believe it is this.

Swine Enthusiast said: Thanks, the car is with Paragon by the time I got your message and they are checking the entire car over to find the noise, they aren't just checking the trailing arms though but they believe it is this. You need to mention this to them. It seems to be a pretty new thing, and most people completely miss it. Lots of forum users have had the noise for ages, swapping arms, dampers, top mounts, then someone noticed it was these cross braces. The bolts need to be undone and then done back up again. Not saying it is that, but it could be, and worth making sure they check before throwing on £800 worth of Porsche arms. They won't care if you mention it, like all these things, once they first start it needs the word to get out there before it becomes common knowledge.

Swine Enthusiast said: On me to a point I suppose, but the car has always sounded like this I put it down to it being stiff. Once you're above 30mph you don't hear anything. For three years, since I collected at RPM technik it has made the same noise. In that time it has had 2x service at OPC, 3x 111 point checks, summer check, winter check, and warrantied for the three years. Also had work done with OPC. Strange never been picked up until now.... So while I should have picked up on it, the OPC has not either, at all. You will only really pick something like this up when driving it down the road. So they won't pick it up at services inspections etc. 99% of the time. Suspension noises on these are really hard to pin point when on the ramp, and many of the noises can sound the same as each other. You have to take the arm apart to see if it is worn most of the time. But at least you have them looking now. It will feel like a new car when sorted.

Ed.Neumann said: You have to take the arm apart to see if it is worn most of the time. I think this is a really important point. A bush can be very worn, but you won’t be able to tell whilst it’s got a bolt through it and assembled. It’s only when you remove it from the car (even partially) can you really inspect it.

I had a worrying knocking noise recently that seemed to move position around the rear of the car when going over speed bumps or potholes. Turns out I'd left a bottle of water in the boot and it was rolling about, albeit not all the times as there was other stuff in the boot too making it a bit random!!

Ed.Neumann said: You will only really pick something like this up when driving it down the road. So they won't pick it up at services inspections etc. 99% of the time. Suspension noises on these are really hard to pin point when on the ramp, and many of the noises can sound the same as each other. You have to take the arm apart to see if it is worn most of the time. But at least you have them looking now. It will feel like a new car when sorted. The issue was highlighted on the 111 point drive - so the car was driven by OPC techs and thus failed and not warrantied.

Update: It was the trailing arms, they've changed them and the noise has disappeared. Unbelievably, the arms were not isnpected by OPC even though they said they were and that they were not the issue. The rusted bolts were still in place. Ridiculous situation from the OPC.

Swine Enthusiast said: Update: It was the trailing arms, they've changed them and the noise has disappeared. Unbelievably, the arms were not isnpected by OPC even though they said they were and that they were not the issue. The rusted bolts were still in place. Ridiculous situation from the OPC. I'm not suggesting your OPC were anything but negligent in not being able to pinpoint the failure of the trailing arms (or more accurately the failure of their balljoints/bushes) but the lack of removal of any bolts is not proof your OPC failed to inspect them, as it's possible to inspect and diagnose play in the arms without actually removing them. Glad you managed to sort the issue, though no real surprise an OPC wasn't able to diagnose the issue, as I had similar issues with noisy suspension on a 997 GT3 a good few years ago, and it was hard work getting two OPC's to accurately diagnose the worn components.

Slippydiff said: I'm not suggesting your OPC were anything but negligent in not being able to pinpoint the failure of the trailing arms (or more accurately the failure of their balljoints/bushes) but the lack of removal of any bolts is not proof your OPC failed to inspect them, as it's possible to inspect and diagnose play in the arms without actually removing them. Glad you managed to sort the issue, though no real surprise an OPC wasn't able to diagnose the issue, as I had similar issues with noisy suspension on a 997 GT3 a good few years ago, and it was hard work getting two OPC's to accurately diagnose the worn components. Unless they are knackered the arms really have to come off to check for play. Don't ask me how I know.... Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 14th May 15:50 Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 14th May 15:51

Yep I had a feeling it would be one of the trailing arms, they make noises at low speed but very difficult to test on the ramp without removing them as they begin to make noise long before being completely knackered.

TDS_981 said: Yep I had a feeling it would be one of the trailing arms, they make noises at low speed but very difficult to test on the ramp without removing them as they begin to make noise long before being completely knackered. Thanks. Just so everyone is aware; I paid Porsche several hours labour to diagnose the problem. They had the car for 48 hours Upon pick up they confirmed it was NOT the trailing arms. Informed me they had checked trailing arms, bushes, joints, carriers, pipes. Suggested that I pay them several hundred pounds of labour to take apart the interior to try and find the noise. They confirmed they had no idea on the noise and couldn't help me. A shrug and a smile and I was sent packing. Take the car to Paragon, five mins in the car with the tech. He cannot believe the noise and the fact Porsche couldn't confirm where the noise was coming from. They remove trailing arms. Confirm they are the culprit. Replace them. Noise gone. It's clear OPC was being dishonest, couldn't be more clear they did not check and to tell me it wasn't the failed trailing arms, when it was smacks of bulls t. To suggest the interior needs to come out is the biggest clue. Sorry, I am fuming.

This does raise the case for a quality indy afaic... awful situation and glad it's all resolved now...

Quickmoose said: This does raise the case for a quality indy afaic... awful situation and glad it's all resolved now... Mate, thanks, the conduct after OPC told me they would find the cause and then we could fix it, is horrific. I feel very really done over and I've used the same OPC for seven years. They will be getting a formal complaint. The car has been relisted and is ready to be sold.

This is why I would rather find a good local garage and diagnose stuff myself, a few hours on google can narrow all options down. Support brace, control arm or trailing arms was pretty much all it could have been. Those bits using CTE parts come in around £500 and an hour or two to fit. I would have started with the support bolts, 10 mins and no parts needed to check, still there, next trailing arms, fault found. Bingo! £350 in CTE arms and £150 labour. The control arms go back. Glad it is sorted.

Ed.Neumann said: This is why I would rather find a good local garage and diagnose stuff myself, a few hours on google can narrow all options down. Support brace, control arm or trailing arms was pretty much all it could have been. Those bits using CTE parts come in around £500 and an hour or two to fit. I would have started with the support bolts, 10 mins and no parts needed to check, still there, next trailing arms, fault found. Bingo! £350 in CTE arms and £150 labour. The control arms go back. Glad it is sorted. Thanks, now the car can be welcomed fit as a fiddle to it's new owner

Swine Enthusiast said: Thanks. Just so everyone is aware; I paid Porsche several hours labour to diagnose the problem. They had the car for 48 hours Upon pick up they confirmed it was NOT the trailing arms. Informed me they had checked trailing arms, bushes, joints, carriers, pipes. Suggested that I pay them several hundred pounds of labour to take apart the interior to try and find the noise. They confirmed they had no idea on the noise and couldn't help me. A shrug and a smile and I was sent packing. Take the car to Paragon, five mins in the car with the tech. He cannot believe the noise and the fact Porsche couldn't confirm where the noise was coming from. They remove trailing arms. Confirm they are the culprit. Replace them. Noise gone. It's clear OPC was being dishonest, couldn't be more clear they did not check and to tell me it wasn't the failed trailing arms, when it was smacks of bulls t. To suggest the interior needs to come out is the biggest clue. Sorry, I am fuming. Maybe not so much dishonest, just incompetent/useless.

Swine Enthusiast said: I paid Porsche several hours labour to diagnose the problem. They had the car for 48 hours Upon pick up they confirmed it was NOT the trailing arms. So have you got a refund for what you paid yet? Because if the story is as told here they would have no reason not to refund all of it.

Swine Enthusiast said: Thanks. Just so everyone is aware; I paid Porsche several hours labour to diagnose the problem. They had the car for 48 hours Upon pick up they confirmed it was NOT the trailing arms. Informed me they had checked trailing arms, bushes, joints, carriers, pipes. Suggested that I pay them several hundred pounds of labour to take apart the interior to try and find the noise. They confirmed they had no idea on the noise and couldn't help me. A shrug and a smile and I was sent packing. Take the car to Paragon, five mins in the car with the tech. He cannot believe the noise and the fact Porsche couldn't confirm where the noise was coming from. They remove trailing arms. Confirm they are the culprit. Replace them. Noise gone. It's clear OPC was being dishonest, couldn't be more clear they did not check and to tell me it wasn't the failed trailing arms, when it was smacks of bulls t. To suggest the interior needs to come out is the biggest clue. Sorry, I am fuming. Sorry you’ve gone through that. I would absolutely be pursuing a refund though.

981Boxess said: So have you got a refund for what you paid yet? Because if the story is as told here they would have no reason not to refund all of it. Update, spoke to the rep - abysmal service. Just said he was sorry and that was that. No refund. "I don't know what to say" Total crap.

Swine Enthusiast said: 981Boxess said: So have you got a refund for what you paid yet? Because if the story is as told here they would have no reason not to refund all of it. Update, spoke to the rep - abysmal service. Just said he was sorry and that was that. No refund. "I don't know what to say" Total crap. I must be missing something here, but as far as I can make out: They (OPC) have charged you to identify an issue and quote you to repair it, they didn't manage to do either, you paid them and have an invoice for that? You took the car elsewhere to someone else to identify and repair that same issue, which they successfully did relatively easily, presumably you have an invoice for that too? If there is a problem getting a part/full refund here there is more to this story than is being disclosed or you are speaking to the wrong person at the OPC. Get them to credit all or some of it against the warranty.