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YOUR RESEARCHYour .02 || PSS10s vs. X73 (C4S)
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I suspect that the thrust bearings (I think this is different than the perch bushing) are either missing or installed incorrectly.
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I friend of mine installed the x74’s and found the ride too stiff/bouncy for everyday driving and is selling it.
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You are fine with your specs, I run a little more front camber in mine.
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One of the systems he tested on the shock dyno was the pss9.
Use gt3 rs specs; didn't ask why; seemed reasonable
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Anyway, here are the specs and some pics; we used GT3 RS specs; didn't ask why; seemed reasonable.
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Suggestion
Anders - I would recommend printing out the Porsche parts diagram for the front suspension and clearly indicating which parts should be scavenged and installed with the PSS10s.
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I read an article from a dude that worked on nascar suspensions and he had access to a shock dyno.
I�ve done some Searching and these are the two setups I am considering.
The biggest �Pro� for the X73 is that it is a factory engineered solution. I really like going the �factory� route if its available; it feels �safe�.
The biggest �Pro� for the PSS10 setup is that it is height and damper adjustable. Almost all of the time, I�ll be driving on the street, and every once in a while, the wife rides in the C4S, so being able to reach down and tune to the ride to wife-friendly is a
huge
plus.
The X73 is ~$425 more expensive not a huge factor, but worth mentioning.
Both have warranties.
I need to try to ride in each to get an idea; maybe this weekend.
So, I think I�ve made my decision, but want the opinions of others in case I failed to consider anything unusual. Which would you choose, and why?
�Wong� is too strong of a word. It�s a US spec suspension that does a really good job, but I�d like something lower, more authentic I guess. I also like the adjustability factor. US spec Sport Suspension looks pretty damn good as-is, but with just a little tweaking, it can look exponentially better IMO. See
AreenA�s fine example
; remember this thread? I mean,
damn
I've got PSS10 on my '02 C4S and really like it. I track the car about 2 days/month and made the switch primarily for track driving. The ability to increase the camber up front makes a huge difference on the turn-in. Don't think I'd have made the change for street driving only.
x73.
I read an article from a dude that worked on nascar suspensions and he had access to a shock dyno. Of interesting note he found many popular adjustable shocks to be inconsistently valved, meaning a 3 setting on one shock could be a 5 on the other side. One of the systems he tested on the shock dyno was the pss9. Tein adjustables? Crap.
Short of high dollar adjustables he liked the koni adjustables and the bilstein heavy duty or sports. I wish I still had the link to this article.
For me, I regret the PSS9's... the spring rates are too soft. I have it constantly at 4 up front and 1 to the rear (firmest) since anything above those settings, the car feels like a damned wobbly boat.
I wish I'd have gone with the x73...
It all depends on how you like it and how you drive it.
I went with the PSS9 set-up last spring, along with some X74 sways I picked up from a fellow Rennlister. I don't track my car, but I can tell you that the handling on the street is night and day from stock.
I had my Indy set-up the suspension (height and settings at 3/5) and I don't see changing these.
Surprising to me, while I find the ride firmer, the new set-up absorbs bumps much more smoothly. So imo, it is a better all around ride ... firmer, much better handling, smoother and no more 4x4 look.
I can't comment on the full X74 set-up, but there are a number of threads on this, here and on 6speed.
I found the
article
I was referring to.
Some nuggets to get your mouth watering:
And, last, but not least:
Your mileage and experience may vary, but when it's time for me to upgrade suspension, it's X73 or Bilstein Sport/HD shocks.
///Michael
One more nugget regarding Koni Yellows, which the author says is decent:
ROW M030 wouldn't be stiff enough for me, I'm sure.
Maybe this summer I'll change to X73 and just eat up the difference.
BTW, I have my pss9's fully corner balanced to my weight also.
I think this quote sums it up:
If I were to get ****-adjustable shocks, then I would have a reputable shock tuner match all 4 shocks on a shock dyno to your ride specifications and keep it there.
///Michael
Anderson,
What is your goal??
Ultimate handling?
Looks/best drop?
Ride Quality?
I can only speak to the PSS9's and X74 (I have not driven an X73 or PSS10 car) but I would say the following.
- X74/X73 will provide sharper/better handling than the PSS9/10
- PSS9/10 will drop lower
- PSS9/10 will provide a softer ride
If you are doing suspension, I would upgrade the sways to H&R also. This combination will give you better handling even in a soft suspension setting. I have GT3 sways on mine with PSS9s and it really transforms the ride.
I have, but between the RoW M030 and the US M030, the cost and install likely isn�t worth the investment to me.
<10mm F & R Table 3
The more I read, the more I think the 10s might be a better setup for the street, which is where this Porsche will stay 99.9 %of the time.
I just went from US M030... to X74 (I have a '03 C2). I am very happy with X74, which is equivalent to the X73 that would fit your car. I think you will enjoy your ride in an X74 car coming up. It is a significant improvement over the US M030 set-up, both in terms of ride quality, handling and stance.
The ride height with X74, IMHO, is perfect... and since the shocks are Bilstien Sports and pre-assembled with new bump-stops, matched springs & sways, new top-hats, bushings, etc, it really is an easy install and a "set it and forget it" package.
Don't fool yourself that you'll enjoy crawling around "adjusting" those PSS10's. Everyone I know who has them RARELY bothers to change them much after the first month of ownership. The advantage of that package is the greater range of adjustability for ride-height and alignment.
I track my car 6 weekends per year (fwiw: I am a PCA nationally certified instructor), and drive it on the street a lot (not everyday though). With X74 I can drive my daughter to daycare across bumpy city streets all week with no rubbing/squeaking/clanking noise, and go to the track on the weekends and feel like I have a track-tuned setup under me. X74 performs both tasks great. I don't think your wife will mind (or notice) the stiffness difference of X73 if you already have the stock C4S suspension (which is like US M030, right?). Of course X74/X73 will be lower and harder, but the shocks are of such superior quality to your stock Boge units that the ride (subjectively) feels better/smoother over short/sharp bumps even though it is noticeably more firm & controlled in roll-stiffness and over long-wave bumps.
Given the same choice as you, I chose to buy the best factory suspension available. I don't regret it. I have done aftermarket coil-over conversions on previous P-cars and, while great for the track, I did not like the decline in "refinement" that you often get with off-the-shelf aftermarket parts.
Good luck with your decision.
I have the PSS10s, and the ride on '3/4' on the 4s is quite a bit better than stock. The car doesn't get upset on small undulations (not that it really got upset, but just was harsher than it needed to be) and is more compliant.
I have yet to take it to the track, but the adjustability there is welcome. I thought the turbo/4s wouldn't gain much, if at all other than ride height on the ROW setup.
I didn't want to spend mounds of money on something like a JRZ or Moton setup so the PSS10 was a perfect alternative. The springs can be harder but then the street ride would suffer.
Thanks for the heads up; I know I have a WB, but Gert�s product page doesn�t suggest what you�re saying is accurate? Here�s the link again.
LINK
and screen cap. An option, but honestly, likely not in the mix right now.
Gert says on the bottom GT2/GT3 adjustable anti-roll bars. That description is correct; not the top line.
Email Gert for clarification or ask Dell for confirmation.
I have X73 on my '04 C4S I made the change from stock. The stock US set up made me feel unsafe, it wandered at speed and when pressed hard. On the other hand, the X73 gives me nothing back but confidence. Excellent kit. The set-up is just want I was looking for, trackable, but not too abusive on the street. PS, my wife does not care for it, too tight for her. I did not install it for her.
I’ve driven 996’s with pss9 and x74. The x74 handles great but it is not wife-friendly at all. For street use the pss9 or 10’s, in my opinion, are better solution especially if a lower ride height is your primary reason. This is not to say that the pss10 does not improve handling. The adjustability if height and dampening is worthwhile. IMO the softest setting is wife-friendly and the firmest setting is noticeably stiffer.
I friend of mine installed the x74’s and found the ride too stiff/bouncy for everyday driving and is selling it. Let me know if you are interested.
Also, the x74 didn't lower his 99 996 as much as advertized for some reason over the stock suspension.
My first 996 had PSS9's which handled like a dream and was also very comfortable. My best friend has a 996 with x74 and it is quite a bit stiffer than my old car. Handling was about the same at higher speeds but in autocross, my car was dramatically more balanced than his. Of course if you are comparing apples to apples, my old car also had GT3 Control arms with quite a bit of negative camber and GT3 Sways and wider front tires than his did. His car understeers at the limit and this is due to his alignment (more street tune) and his skinny front tires (comparatively to my car).
At any rate, if the car will serve double duty, I would go with the PSS9/10, GT3 swaybars and add bit of negative camber through plates or control arms as it will handle very nicely and still not beat you up driving it for extended amounts of time. The X74 on the other hand can be a bit harsh for rides of 30 mins or more (depending on roads etc...). I have a sensitive back so overly stiff cars can get to me. If you can find some people in your area with either suspension, try getting a ride in their cars to see if it's better suited for your purposes?
Since my C4S will be street driven nearly 100% of the time, and I desire the ride and height adjustability mentioned before, I went with
the PSS10s from Gert @ Carnewal
.
I think you will like them. I went from the stock C4S suspension to PSS10s last year. I am clearly not an expert in suspensions, but found the dampening of the PSS10s to make the ride much less jarring than stock (easier on my back) at any setting from soft to stiff. After playing with the settings, I am now on running front 5 back 7. Even full stiff (10) was very acceptable on our rough roads.!
Just FYI, my ride height at fender went from 27.0 Front 26.5 Rear to 25.5 F/R. No problems hitting the stops on any bumps yet, but you do need to be a little more careful with the front spoiler.
i made the switch from stock to pss9 on my 2002 C4S and the difference was dramatic. i am really happy with handling and really stoked with ride height. i am no susp. expert, but i wouldnt call the system crap. its the way porsche should have done it the first time.
The car is in the shop now. I'm pretty sure they didn't use the factory spring perch bushing (because I have them in a bag with some other "extra" suspension bits leftover from the PO's PSS10 install). I suspect that the thrust bearings (I think this is different than the perch bushing) are either missing or installed incorrectly. The techs said that this was pretty common on the cars they see. The front diff showed some very slight seepage during my PPI, so I thought I'd have both issues resolved at the same time.
After that whole thread on tools, I still haven't used anything on my car but my credit card.
At some point soon I'll buy a jack and stands so I can get the wheels off and access the brakes and suspension myself.
I think so. I'll let the tech at the indy guide me here. I didn't get a real good look at it because the car was only up on stands and not on the lift. There was some seepage around the where the driver's side axle enters the diff. The PPI inspector didn't seem to think that it was a big deal, but I want to be proactive about getting it fixed. I only dropped the car off a few hours ago, and they haven't called me back yet.
Ah yes. I watched them do it at the indy. They raised the car using the front passenger side lift point and the entire front end came up. They then placed the stands under the front frame and were able to pull both wheels off in no time. The techs love how stiff the chassis is on a 996. Kept talking about how superior it was to those older P-cars.
Just got off the phone with TPWS and yes, they are going to replace the gasket and add some lube. For the PSS10s, the are replacing the front strut mounts and bearing rings. I should have the car back by the weekend.
Just one last bit of advice. For a while, be extra careful pulling into driveways, and when parking. That front spoiler is going to get a little lower by the time you're done.
Good news on the struts -- sounds like they were able to use the pieces I brought from the original suspension and install them correctly along with the thrust bearing, which they said had been mis-installed and was flopping around in there. So no need for new mounts or bearing rings!
Anders - I would recommend printing out the Porsche parts diagram for the front suspension and clearly indicating which parts should be scavenged and installed with the PSS10s. That way hopefully your guys can get the job done correctly the first time.
Cool
Thanks, I've already sent the shop a few snippets of threads, and the link to the Pelican Parts page, along with my desired setup. The technician I've been told has quite a bit of experience with the PSS system on several of the 996 flavors. I should be covered. <<crosses fingers>>
Got the car back from the shop this morning. It turns out that the seepage from the front differential was related to the improper/inexperienced installation of the PSS10s. TPWS said that when they had the suspension apart that the driver's side axle just kind of slid out -- i.e. the shop that originally did the install wasn't familiar enough with Porsches to understand that attachment point (a snap ring or something). They were able to use the parts I brought to fix the PSS10s, replaced the diff seal, reattached the axle (no damage luckily), and it feels great driving it now! TPWS also recommended raising the suspension slightly and getting an alignment done given that I'm using this as a street car.
I guess the lesson in this is to make sure that whoever does the install knows what the h3ll they are doing! The second lesson is that if you buy a Porsche sight-unseen, your best bet is to buy from an area that has excellent Porsche shops nearby to give you a better PPI (my inspector didn't notice/comment on the suspension noise).
What about your alignment specs? I need to research this before taking the car in for alignment after raising the suspension slightly. I have the POs specs, but I'm not sure how he arrived at them. Can someone post a link to the stock setup - both ride height and alignment for a C4S for comparison purposes?
Hi all: Just a FYI on ride heights. Here is something to read when you are bored.
Basically, the 25.5" we went with is a touch higher than GT2 and just about 1/2" lower than MO30. (see table 10).
Table 1 is measured under the car. I ended up 131mm front and 144mm rear, which is higher than X73 but a little lower than ROW30.
Suspension Link
Congratulations--looks great and love white.
Very useful link. I really haven't had any scraping issues except on the entrance to the garage at work (tried it once -- won't do that again). Speed bumps are ok as long as I go very slow. What has your experience been with those settings and street driving?
Sounds like I have had the same experience you have. I am very careful with steep driveways. Taking them at an angle helps. I have hit some large bumps with no problems.
I have bumped a curb when parking, but it was only with my front spoiler. (I have a stock C4S black plastic front spoiler. Looks OK with my dark red car, and is tough and easily replaced.) If I had a painted front spoiler like many of you I would have to be a little more careful!
I'm fortunate -- I have a TT spoiler on the car plus an extra C4S spoiler in the garage (included in the sale from the PO) so I have a backup in case I totally screw up. The indy said that some 996TT owners were putting C4S spoilers on for street driving because they are a little more forgiving in terms of ride height.
Yes, have the X73 and I frequently run the local canyon roads for fun. I continuely comment to myself that my car with Hankook rubber easily rivals some of my best race cars of the past. This suspension is not only amazing but also forgiving on the highway - something very different and almost odd for Bilstien - my hat is off to the Porsche engineers for this package. HIGHLY RECOMMEND. eric
I guess to each his own.
X74 changes the car from a touring car to a sports car.
Trust me you can drive more than 30 minutes with X73/X74. Christian and I picked up his car in MN and drove it 1300 miles in two days to GA. C4S with X73. It was fine, we didn't get beat up. In fact I would say I felt the same at the end of that trip as I did driving my car back from Dallas with a stock suspension.
X74 dropped my car an inch before it settled out. Measurements taken pre and post install.
Here's a side by side picture. Judge for yourself if it will lower the ride height.
Where do you measure ride height? I measured at the top of the wheel-well and was at 25.5" in front and 25" in back. I think the car may have been at 25" all around until they fixed the front suspension.
Thanks. 25" is way below even the GT2 suspension height. I will definitely raise it to 25.5". I'll will take it to SoulSpeed here in Austin some time in the next week or two to get it raised and everything realigned and cross balanced.
Did you dial in any negative camber?
Dial in? Lowering from stock, camber should go more negative. I think I might be dialing a little
out
during my alignment appointment on Friday; we'll see
Visual alignments are not recommended for extended periods
I was told I'd chew up the tires pretty quickly if I drove on them with these
"BEFORE"
settings for too long.
Anyway, here are the specs and some pics; we used GT3 RS specs; didn't ask why; seemed reasonable.
No corner balance; was told not needed and I trust his judgment. Ride heights unchanged.
The lower lip had to be removed to get it on the rack. 2 screws, and the lip pops right off; nice to know moving forward.
Before
After
Awesome! I'm heading in for alignment on Tuesday. Perhaps I'll inquire about the necessity of corner balancing (I know it's been done once before on the car).
With this amount of negative camber in your setup, do you expect to wear through tires faster? Was the selection of the GT3-RS specs based on your chosen ride height of 25.5"?
Your fine on the alignment specs. You will not notice any rapid tire wear. The rears will not wear prematurely with the specs you have. Notice more toe in the rear than the front. That is for rear engine car control. They error on the safe side. A more aggressive setup would see very shallow or even toe OUT in the rear depending on driver preference. You are fine with your specs, I run a little more front camber in mine. eric
Got my alignment done today at SoulSpeed here in Austin. Here are my specs now:
25.5" ride height (visually verified - will measure when I get home)
LF: -0.9 camber, 8.3 caster, 0.0 toe
RF: -1.0, 8.0, 0.0
Total toe: 0.0
Steer ahead: 0.0
LR: -1.4 camber, 0.2 toe
RR: -1.4 camber, 0.2 toe
Total toe: 0.39
Thrust Angle: 0.0
So, seems like I'm good to go with my street setup. Now if only I could squash the desire to buy more stuff -- like a 944 as a track toy...
