Porsche E-Fuel

No need to sell your ICE powered 996. https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2022/company/porsche-highly-innovative-fuels-hif-opening-efuels-pilot-plant-haru-oni-chile-synthetic-fuels-30735.html

Between eFuels and Toyota pushing hard for Hydrogen, this has been fascinating to follow from an enthusiast and engineer perspective. Hopefully Porsche and HIF can keep up with their proposed schedule, the world is going to need a lot more eFuel than what one facility can provide.

This is the news we have all been waiting for !!!! We have all envisioned how great it would be to make "fuel from water" ....... Scientifically speaking , the two main by-products of ICE combustion is water ( H20) and Carbon Dioxide ( C02 ) ..so putting them back together returns them back to liquid fuel... Since "energy cannot be created or destroyed" but can only simply be transferred from one form to another...... Using wind energy to put water (H20) and Carbon Dioxide ( C02) back together to return to liquid fuel makes perfect since .... The only question is how much wind energy do we need and how much will it cost in the end????

I hear you guys. First viable step to keeping the ice engine running cleanly. Still got a long way to go. F1's 2026 mandate for e-fuel powered cars will jump start the F1 teams energy/oil partners towards production, more capacity and hopefully evolution in how its able to be produced. Leave it to Porsche to jump start this evolution. My hats off to them.

This was announced in the spring: Synthetic, Carbon-Neutral eFuels Are Coming; Porsche Invests in Maker (caranddriver.com) I still want to believe in electric cars. As much as I'm not an Elon fan, I do applaud the efforts that Tesla has made. At this point in electric car adoption I would have expected a paradigm shift in the technology. Electric cars, hybrids have not been around for 20 years. Although the cars are certainly better (ie. faster charging and better range), they are still no where near replicating the ICE vehicle experience: fuel refill in 5 minutes and a 400 mile range regardless of weather. If we look at the internet, in a span of 5 years (1995 to 2000), we went from a fringe group having internet to everyone having internet. Cell phones, both the adoption and the battery technology shifted in 5 years. From bulky phones to phones that would fit in a pant pocket, nationwide coverage and consumer friendly prices. Very few TV's in 1955. By 1960, over 90% of homes had a TV. Cars were a rarity in 1910. By 1915, cars were in common use. Lot's more examples. The electric car thing has been on the radar for decades, deployment now for 20 years. Still no shift to universal adoption. This to me indicates that there is not an easy or sustainable option for these types of vehicles. 20 years ago, I would have bet on hydrogen either for fuel cells or combustion. No, maybe eFuels especially with the reduction in emissions (and maybe nuclear fusion lol). And if electric cars were the future and way to make money, GM, FORD, HONDA, TOYOTA, VAG, MERCEDES, BMW and others couldn't figure it out either?

I still think the next phase will be the combining of more efficient EV and ICE motors into the next and higher evolution of hybrids. As racing goes, so goes the car industry. The Lemans/endurance raceworld is rolling out Hyper cars which are insane Hybrids and probably will be using efuel. F1 is also changing their rules for 2026 to use efuel and more integrated hybrid systems. My bet is we will be driving around the next evolution of incredible hybrids that get 250 mpg in green econo mode with the option for performance by flicking a button. That's 3,750 miles on a 15 gallon tank of efuel. Who cares if it costs $20-30 a gallon. With mileage like that and being green in addition, who wouldn't want the next generation hybrid over a pure EV? Could there be a reason why Musk has been aggressively selling his stock and using the proceeds to buy Twitter? Dunno.

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I agree with most of everything you say here. While I had a blast autocrossing a Taycan, the enthusiast in me wants a car that makes real noises, has real character, is more engaging (thanks to a manual transmission), and can be refueled virtually anywhere. Very happy Porsche is investing in eFuel!

Uh it's a press release. Also, get in line behind FormulaOneDotConglomerate. I'm with Toyota and @GC996 on full electric not being the true way forward for the next 10 years, maybe more. But this Egas thing is still in the pipe dream stage. Come on. Just look at the "pilot plant". It's a postage stamp. That is going to supply my targa with fuel in 2035? Color me skeptical. Race gas yes. Street gas...

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I agree, that pilot plant is miniscule. Currently we use 134.83 billion gallons of gasoline per year in the US. 34K gallons is a far cry. For now, this is just hype as far as I'm concerned. It reminds me about how "successful" people think Tesla is. People act like they're the largest, most successful, automotive company in history. They weren't even in the top 15 automotive manufactures in 2021 by volume. While they have done well, they only sold 900K vehicles in 2021. Toyota sold 9.6 million vehicles in 2021.

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In a word, lobbyists. What we really need is trains running on this stuff and other forms of mass transit otherwise it's all just blowing smoke.

I'm just wondering what the "actual process" is ...... Water/H20 is pretty much everywhere and so is Carbon Dioxide/C02 ...with either wind or solar power one could make their own E-Fuel like our great granddads made alcohol, in a still... I have Interstate 65 running through the back part of my property I could set a small windmill off the side of the Interstate Bridge to catch the wind for power, for "free"...lol

No question Porsche cannot manufacture enough to fuel the world demand. But they don't have too. What they have to do is get Europe and the US behind it as a solution. The Russian/Ukraine war, and the natural gas shennanigans being played by russia, and current lack of power supply in Europe from poor strategic planning is causing a rethink. With F1 adopting the efuel mandate for 2026, this means that either Porsche supplies the fuel, or the oil companies that are partnered with each F1 team such as Shell and Ferrari, mercedes and petrobras, exxon mobil and porsche, etc, will want amd need to develop and supply the fuel, which means that they need to develop the fuel manufacturing capabilities, which they ultimately will. Why, because they will need to or be late to the party. Be interesting how this will play out and with who. Porsche is pretty smart.

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Yes, you know they are and a lot of the reason they are doing the F1 and Cup races using the E-Fuel is to get the largest $$$ for their E-Fuel Process . The big oil companies want the process for as little $$$ as possible, Porsche wants as much $$$ as possible for the process, and the Greenies don't care how much $$$ whoever has to spend as long as they save the planet....

Hah! Greenies love to spend other people's money...

I think most of us greenies don't view electric cars as any better for the planet. maybe some airheads do. but us real greenies still complain about tire pollution, brake pad pollution, dirty electricity generation, battery material mining not to mention just the sheer waste of materials making a 3 ton people mover that seats 7 + luggage except it never has. no, we want you guys on foot.

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Never !!! When I can't drive anymore due to old age I will have a wheelchair with an E-Fuel powered ICE engine !!!

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And to add to this, they are not really profitable. Their business model is based on their ability to sell carbon credits since these are EV's. Which we as a collective are actually subsidizing. I applaud the attempt, the Tesla math does not add up for me. A car is not a status symbol for me nor is it just an appliance. It is something that I enjoy driving, tinkering and participating in an online and real community. My formal education was a degree in environmental sciences. The hatred in that community, be it for ICE, hunters, fishing, meat eaters, demonstrates the lack of understanding of what the environmental issues are. And, I own ICE vehicles, 2 stroke outboards, I fish, I hunt and I eat meat. I also don't buy useless crap like fast fashion, I asses what I purchase based on a need, often not a want. I look at the lifecycle of what I'm purchasing. I wear shirts that maybe older but of great quality. I don't change cars often. When we purchase furniture, we will spend significant $$ to ensure it lasts. My brand new boats in 2003 are still the boats I use today. My ATV from 1994 is the ATV that I plan to keep for another 20 years. Even though my employer will gladly get me the latest iPhone whenever I want, I keep my phones 3 to 4 years and my phone is recycled to my wife. I don't buy coffee outside the home more than 4 or 5 times per year. I think paper cups are dumb. I love coffee. I want good coffee. I have good coffee machines. Our last coffee machine lasted 48000 cups of coffee - it was beyond being serviced. Parts were still harvested for other machines. I see these supposedly "green" people, drinking their bubble tea or starbucks or conflict free coffee so they can be pat on the back for their efforts. The number 1 environmental concern is not the car, or heating your home, or paper plates or plastic straws. It is the level of consumerism that has taken over the planet. My mom bought apples from the fruit market or a fall bushel for the winter. They came in a paper bag or in a reusable bushel basket. I buy my apples in a plastic container at big box stores because there is very little choice. Rant off.

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You misspelled weenies The number 1 environmental concern is overpopulation. Just ask the noted scientist who�s vaccinating the world. Bill Gates

The question I have is what will the greenies say about efuel? Will they be for it or against it?

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This is a sweeping generalization. Some of us have a caffeine intolerance.

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The climate change charlatans are 100% invested in EVs.

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I find it kinda funny that the Porsche efuel initiative has been successfully playing out for 3 years and the mainstream media hasn't discussed it. Unless you actively follow Porsche, F1 and endurance racing, you have probably never run accross the initiative, nor its far reaching implications and application. Great video on the brand new Porsche 963 at Goodwood. The fun begins at 1:14 on the video, when the car launches in EV mode and then the ICE engine kicks in. Incredible. Bet it's using efuel. You Tube

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There are a few things to consider... 1. The price of that fuel is going to be expensive . 2. The quantity Porsche expects to produce in one year of production (at full capacity) is equivalent to the number of gallons consumed in a single day in the US alone.

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It would be interesting to know the true cost for eFuel manufacturing. That's the bottom line for consumers and energy companies. I'm sure there is a large amount of engineering to be worked out yet and the consumer will have to pay for that in the end.

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Foot traffic produces a lot of huffing and puffing, which equals CO2. ;-)

I think the key thing to watch is how the oil companies respond and evolve with the 2026 efuel mandate in F1. If the oil partners of each team develop the capabilities to manufacture it, then we have more capacity for production and supply. Aramco is a key player to watch as well given their heavy involvement and sponsorship in F1. At the end of the day, Oil companies will have to evolve into energy companies whether they like it or not. If they closely control production, they can keep oil prices elevated and justify the expense of alternative energy development. If oil prices collapse, alternative energy investment and returns will collapse.

ICE cars emit stuff out of the tailpipe. Electric cars do not emit stuff out of a tailpipe. The vast majority of politicians and people stop right there.

As someone who's been extremely excited and passionate about eFuel since I've 1st heard about it 2 years ago, I am praying we'll have the wisdom to give it it's fair chance at becoming a part of the potential energy solutions in the future. I love Toyota's CEO stance where they don't put all their proverbial eggs in one basket and focus on as many viable energy sources as possible. Living in Quebec, Canada, where we have an abundance of renewable hydro energy, I would love to see our government throw their hat in the ring and potentially collaborate to start producing eFuel here. Given their track record and what they tend to focus on I won't hold my breath but will stay eternally hopeful. Not sure where to find that suggestion box

I look at this effort by Porsche as a piece of the puzzle for future fuel needs . What they are doing is proof of concept and to build a repeatable process . If and when they achieve that the " recipe " can be expanded or sold to anyone interested in making it large scale . Just like making bio diesel out of algae , right now it is small scale but has potential . And so does hydrogen . And so does electric . They all can play a part in the future . There does not have to be one dominant fuel it can be several . But for the masses I believe current oil companies/refineries have to be involved because the infrastructure is already in place . And that takes big $$$ to build . The distribution network doesn't care ( I may be wrong ) if they are supplying fuel built from oil/water/algae or cow poop ! They want their piece of the profits just like any business . If they see potential for $$$ then they are part of the solution . On the flip side if they don't then they won't . 😁

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Ha! As if all true capitalists don�t? Classic misdirection there� You wouldn�t happen to be a �magician� would you? 😏

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Hah! Greenies like to spend other people's money, while capitalists like to invest other peoples money.

The Ford Model T was very primitive and not adequate for my needs, therefore all ICE-powered vehicles are inadequate and will always be inadequate.

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Thanks for sharing your opinions that no one cares about. Keep it up.

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We are working on micro-catalytic converters for cow burps and farts maybe we can repurpose them for humans too.

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Hah! Methane is a problem.

Don't know if anyone has been following the Porsche investment in Rimac, which is the most technologically advance EV manufacturer at this stage of the evolution. Nico Roseberg just received his 2 million dollar car. As a side note, Rimac is developing a hybrid. Watch this company in combination with Porsche. Looking forward to how Porsche uses the Rimac technology. You Tube

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loves me a fella that can quote the first law of thermodynamics on a Porsche tech board!

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FTFY

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Fair enough. Hope you find something that works for you.

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Only the irrational greenies. The rational ones can talk about it without spinning out of control.

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Glad you see the humor in it. All in good fun.

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#sarcasmdetectorinop

Porsche E-Fuel has moved from just the Porsche Cup Series to filling the first retail 911. Be interesting to see if/when the dealerships start offering a car wash and fuel fill up for their retail customers. https://flatsixes.com/porsche-news/p...rst-tank-full/

Sounds like the great E85 government experiment.

We will find out soon enough.

Interesting video on the battery system build by Williams for the hybrid IMSA prototypes that we will all see next weekend at the Daytona 24. Stuff is fascinating. You Tube

New Top Gear video on electric, hydrogen and synthetic fuels. As always, Chris Harris can take a boring topic and make it fun. You Tube

Looks like things may be changing in Europe regarding the unrealistic 2035 mandate. We have Porsche/Audi and F1 to thank in paving the way for the next evolution of hybrids powered by synthetic fuel. https://www.foxnews.com/auto/burned-...synthetic-fuel

is the e-fuel safe for older engines including those with carburetors? https://seekingalpha.com/news/394270...-starting-2024 saw this unfortunate news the other day. e10 is already a pita for small carbureted engines this is gonna be even worse for classic motorcycle and car owners.

Don't know. But I bet we will know soon enough.

Looks like FoMoCo is joining in on the E-Fuel !! .......I guess Government Motors is still going to back battery powered cars.. I would think the new synthetic E-Fuel can't be any worse for old carbureted cars and especially small carbureted engines than the current E-fuel ( E-10/E-15).. Alcohol is good motor fuel if used straight and quickly, but it still needs a Top End Lube, it is just too dry and attracts water like crazy...

Seems to be a number of e-fuel companies emerging that are manufacturing this stuff. Still in its infancy, but it will grow quickly as many car companies pivot to next gen hybrid using the best of ev and ice technology to take us to a new level of efficiency with e-fuel power.

At the end of the day therr isn't a country in the world who's infrastructure is ready to provide the power surge required to charge EV's. The macro Grid isnt big enough, and the local micro grid is far too under-built to handle 100% EV's, heck 20% would crush most small towns. The biggest obstacle in the US is our 220V 3 phase based home power vs the 400V 3 phase most of the rest of the world uses. I currently have 2 EV's, (Tesla and a GM Spark) a V8 Jeep and a 911. I've had EV's for about 6 years.. The level 2 charger at home pretty much services the EV's fine. Its mandatory IMHO. But I'm already seeing the charging infrastructure get wobbly, A couple of the companies have horrible maintenance practices, they install and run the charging stations till the break and they are often down for weeks, Then add to it that a couple of the charging network systems have been bought out by Shell and other oil companies, and immediately the pricing goes wonky. They start charing more fees, more for the power or a "parking" fee. Lots of companies trying ot exploit the EV market for fast money with no intent to build infrastructure.

Synthetic fuel is first coming to Texas in 2027. https://carbuzz.com/news/the-usas-sy...ck-off-in-2027

You Tube

Thanks Pulpo. Best explanation I have seen so far. These guys always do a good job. As a side note, if you watch the Chris Harris video on the topic, you will see that he is using e-fuel manufactured by another company, not porsche (forget the name). This process will continue to pop up over the next few years as F1 moves to synthetic fuel powered hybrids in 2026, as the racing community moves to it as well with their hybrid "hyper cars", and as the next evolution of hybrid cars are released by the major car manufacturers as they advertise their race wins and enhanced "green" technology.

What would be so cool and would solve all the logistics of distribution of E-fuel would be if they could miniaturize the distilling process.. If the distillery could be miniaturized to the size of a "hot water heater" and installed in your basement to make your own E-fuel say 10 gallons a week... Since water and air is everywhere, if the process can be miniaturized, then there would be no need to distribute the finished product, just one time distribution/lease of the miniaturized equipment.. A possibility......

My guess will be that every big oil company will start to manufacturer it shortly to do the following: (1) keep their oil and fuel partnerships in place with the manufacturers and racing teams, (2) provide a "green" solution that they can make money on and easily sell at their gas stations, and (3) positively address the political and social pressure. Time will tell. But yeah, I would love to make my own!

Yea, your right..The only way they will "let" us make our own is if they have "complete control" over the equipment by some way....and since they already have control of the distribution system, they will be reluctant to change that..and by keeping the distribution system in place all those jobs will be saved...

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For sure. The gov will make us get licenses and because its flamable we will need to have specific safety applications. The prepper guys with a couple hundred acres in the middle of nowhere can bootleg manufacture it along with their moonshine. Hah

The backend process is basically a bait and switch, use massive amounts of electricity to provide a small amount of fuel. Same problem Hydrogen has, its almost 4 to 1 energy to yield the product.. (Its gotten way better but its still a net loss to refine) Fusion is the answer.. Until the manufacturing power is cheap enough to be reasonable rate of power to yield its a non starter. Fusion would in theory also negate all the grid delivery issues if it can be done safer than Fission Nuclear.

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I agree...It's funny you mention Nuclear Power .I have a Great Uncle who built the longest operating Nuclear Reactor..( the one at Penn State) .......he was also the first to receive a "reactor operators licence" ....he wrote the test...took the test...then graded himself...lol

Cool, yea I believe we have its brother here in Oregon at Reed College. Tiny little thing..

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Sweet !! ..Right.....at first it was only putting out 100KW later it was turned up to 2000MW...lol

Interesting video on distance traveled on EV vehicles. This guy is a hoot. No question synthetic fuel powered hybrids are becoming more of a reality. Porsche is testing a 911 turbo hybrid now. Rumor has it no more GT cars are coming to the US. It's only a rumor, but does it mean the next GT car will be a hybrid? Dunno. You Tube

Sustainable fuel is real. Check out F1s new video explaining 2026 adoption. Notice the reference to the oil company partners and how they tie in future application to street cars with the existing petrol infrastructure. Looks like it will be more than Porsche making this stuff. It's only a matter of time that the general media and political class will see this stuff and understand its significance. Watch how the narrative expands from EV to sustainable fuel and hybrids. Looks like F1 won't allow the youtube link to be posted. On YouTube type in "F1 The Future is Coming" and you will find it. You Tube