A very subjective PS4S v. PS Cup2 comparison - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I'm sure there will be plenty of thoughts on this ... I was at Donington last week and Spa a few weeks ago on PS4S ...though through the warm months I run Cup2's on my 991.2 GT3RS ... (I've driven Spa in the snow on Cup2's and it's not for the faint hearted !!) What are your thoughts ??

I did a soaking wet track day in April on fresh Cup 2s in the 991.1 GT3 RS and couldn't get any heat at all into the tyres, like maybe topped out at 15C surface temperature. I think they're supposed to be at around 70-80C. Didn't seem to matter how I drove, it was like the surface water was acting like coolant. Equally, it's all very well him turning up to a Michelin test day and having them swapped back and forth, but I wouldn't take PS4Ss (or any road-biased tyre) to a warm dry track day and expect them to survive more than that one day.

There seems to be very little love for Pirellis - and yet Porsche pretty much insisted I fit them to my C4S when I needed to change. They were the original fitment. They seem fine to me, but I don't drive 'on the edge' and I don't do track days - so I suspect they're good enough.

Michelin are the masters of marketing. They re the best at it. But you ll find that the majority of their tests are on track, sponsored by them and chosen by a YouTuber that very rarely gives a view other than, they re the best. 95% of owners do not drive their car on track so barely get decent heat into the tyres to exploit their ultimate performance on the road. A softer compound tyres, with a tread wear rating under 200, will get up to temperature faster than a 300 TW tyre (PS4S) My experience of cup 2 s, they re great above temps of 5C - no probs in heavy rain if you drive to the conditions, as most do regardless of tyre brand. They re stiff, so have great turn-in but can be a bit crashy on the road, less comfortable for pooling around town or uneven surfaces. The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. In my experiences, the biggest differences in tyres - for the street, is winter tyres at temps around zero and semi slicks in the summer. The rest do a job for how most drive on the roads. When you re next in your Porsche, check your average speed on your computer. You ll quickly realise that this is all marketing nonsense, unless you track the car. Edited by maz8062 on Tuesday 21st October 07:12

My very subjective side by side PS4S vs P-Zero N0 for road driving is in the warm and dry, I much preferred my old Pirelli’s. They were far sharper. In the wet, the Michelins give me more confidence. Outright grip is probably higher on the Michelins, but on the road I’m not too bothered by that. The SC7s on my Macan are excellent, I’ll try those on my Cayman next.

So I'll step in with my experience running Cup2's and PS4S on my 991.2 GT3RS. I switched to Cup2's from my PS4's early in the season and the first trackdays I did were wet and cool. The tyres could be made to work quite well but required aggressive use of the abs in the braking areas to get heat into the tyres and once building pressure and temperature seemed to perform quite well against some of the Porsche Boxter racers at Anglesey ... However, when the weather dried I was not so happy with them ... they were last years tyres and whilst I had been seeing almost 1g lateral on the meter in the wet ... they were maxing at around 1.3g in the dry ... it could have been me but ! So I fitted a new set of Cup2's and straight away felt a big improvement at a dry Cadwell Park where they were mega, 95mph round the uphill left hander at the end of the start finish straight and seeing 135 into the braking area for Park, with lateral G maxing at almost 1.5g ... This gradually deteriorated across successive trackdays (again this could have been me but those RMA days are very fast !) ... so accepting that rain could be on the forecast for the end of the year I fitted my PS4S back on. Spa for two days was great ... still much slower than the 992 GT3RS' (no surprise !) but still seeing 1.35g lateral in the dry and 1.5g in the uphill braking area at the end of the Kemel Straight (from 250kph on the speedo). The price for this was keeping sessions short because the tyres came up to temperature very quickly and taking more pressure out didn't help ... Then to Donington again with PS4S ... this time the tyres felt distinctly below parr and seeing 1.2g in the corners ... 1.35g under braking on the abs ... and only getting around five laps from cold to a little over temperature having take 0.7 bar out from standard. However, for road tyres surely this is mega. PSS5's are now available in 992 GT3RS sizes and according to RPM Teknic can be made to fit on the 991 GT3RS with acceptable geometry ... ??? an option ? Link here https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/blog/michelin-pilot-sport... Yes Michelin do a great marketing job, but are there better options for next season ??? Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 21st October 21:31

maz8062 said: Michelin are the masters of marketing. They re the best at it. But you ll find that the majority of their tests are on track, sponsored by them and chosen by a YouTuber that very rarely gives a view other than, they re the best. 95% of owners do not drive their car on track so barely get decent heat into the tyres to exploit their ultimate performance on the road. A softer compound tyres, with a tread wear rating under 200, will get up to temperature faster than a 300 TW tyre (PS4S) My experience of cup 2 s, they re great above temps of 5C - no probs in heavy rain if you drive to the conditions, as most do regardless of tyre brand. They re stiff, so have great turn-in but can be a bit crashy on the road, less comfortable for pooling around town or uneven surfaces. The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. So the company that manufactured the tyres fitted to EVERY Le Mans 24 hour winning car since 1998 don't know what they're doing ? It's an interesting perspective ... And you're suggesting that the same company that has supplied tyres to the FIA World Rally Championship numerous times between 1973 to 2020 and claimed 347 wins, 28 drivers titles with 12 different drivers, along with 30 manufacturer titles with 11 different manufacturers, don't know what they're doing ? This may bring some much needed perspective to your post ... : https://youtu.be/Rg-jtYXvI7M

maz8062 said: Michelin are the masters of marketing. They re the best at it. But you ll find that the majority of their tests are on track, sponsored by them and chosen by a YouTuber that very rarely gives a view other than, they re the best. 95% of owners do not drive their car on track so barely get decent heat into the tyres to exploit their ultimate performance on the road. A softer compound tyres, with a tread wear rating under 200, will get up to temperature faster than a 300 TW tyre (PS4S) My experience of cup 2 s, they re great above temps of 5C - no probs in heavy rain if you drive to the conditions, as most do regardless of tyre brand. They re stiff, so have great turn-in but can be a bit crashy on the road, less comfortable for pooling around town or uneven surfaces. The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. In my experiences, the biggest differences in tyres - for the street, is winter tyres at temps around zero and semi slicks in the summer. The rest do a job for how most drive on the roads. When you re next in your Porsche, check your average speed on your computer. You ll quickly realise that this is all marketing nonsense, unless you track the car. Edited by maz8062 on Tuesday 21st October 07:12 This YouTuber and his pal are so far up the Michelin rear pipe you can’t even see them…great tyres and I have bought plenty but I have had equal goodness from Conti’s and Nankangs. Horses for courses.

Well, everyone always thinks their correct about 'their' choice. As far as performance tyres are concerned, personally I'd always go for Michelin (by a country mile) with everything else a long way behind. Pirelli would pretty much be rock bottom of the pile but if Pirelli works for other people then good for them. They just aren't for me.. Re the OP, while it would almost certainly be true Cup2s are probably not worth the trouble and compromises if not being used on track, that firmer sidewall does make the car handle a bit differently and (imo) more precisely. depending on how one typically drives on the road and/or how cognisant one is of things, it might or might not really matter.

My view on the Michelin marketing can be summarised: https://youtube.com/shorts/yRfHUtLL5tk?si=pp00XLbm... My 997 has 305 rear section tyres - in the dry, sticking to national speed limits, it ll be near on impossible to come unstuck - there s insane levels of grip from whatever N rated tyre that one chooses, provided they have decent tread and are not cracked I.e with a valid MOT. Trick tyres, I have N rated cup 2 s on mine, make the biggest difference on track. That folk are prepare to pay top dollar, for a particular brand, every 5 years, for driving on the street, it s their choice. I think it is marketing, and very successful at that. Edited by maz8062 on Thursday 23 October 13:34

isaldiri said: Well, everyone always thinks their correct about 'their' choice. . You are assuming that everyone is in the PH category of changing cars annually or at least before the tyres wear out, if you own a car for a long time/mileage then you can try out different tyre types on the same car and have a much more informed opinion, PS4Ss have so much more tractive grip than Cup 2s on the road that they are a no brainer for a high torque turbo Porsche.....also they don't go "straight on" when you turn the steering wheel when cold

maz8062 said: My view on the Michelin marketing can be summarised: https://youtube.com/shorts/yRfHUtLL5tk?si=pp00XLbm... It's little wonder your perspective is somewhat "skewed" if you watch nonsensical drivel like the above you've linked to.

TB993tt said: ... PS4Ss have so much more tractive grip than cold Cup 2s on the road that they are a no brainer for a high torque turbo Porsche.....also they don't go "straight on" when you turn the steering wheel when cold EFA perhaps? In warm dry conditions I'd be surprised if it's the case. My experience was that old worn Cup2s still gave slightly better performance on a dry track than new SC7s. The latter outperform the PS4S... (On a damp track the SC7s were on a different planet to old Cup2s but that's not so much of a surprise. Bloody impressive)

ChrisW. said: Yes Michelin do a great marketing job, but are there better options for next season ??? Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 21st October 21:31 Nangkang CRS Had a set on the 991.2 GT3 this year very impressed with there dry grip. Now running cup2s and CRS,s on my 2sets of rims

People will buy whatever tyre gives them confidence when driving a performance car. If that tyre is 4S, and it gives them the confidence to drive the car to the best of their ability, let them. When it comes to tyres, I'm a geek - I've tried many over the last 20 years or so, from R888 (noisy) to dedicated winter tyres. On my Porsches, I've only ever driven on N-rated tyres, and as far as I am aware, you can't get 4S in 19" 997 N-rated tyre sizes: 235/305, so I wouldn't even consider them when looking to replace my tyres. I was out in my Boxster 986 today, shod with Pirelli PZero Rosso tyres - they were awesome. Bags of grip, confidence, comfort. Perfect. Are they the best tyres that I've used on a Porsche? No. Cup 2's are, but not in cold temps.

At risk of setting PH on fire I would advocate the Porsche N rating is even more disingenuous “marketing” than any Michelin sponsored Youtoober.

Slippydiff said: maz8062 said: Michelin are the masters of marketing. They re the best at it. But you ll find that the majority of their tests are on track, sponsored by them and chosen by a YouTuber that very rarely gives a view other than, they re the best. 95% of owners do not drive their car on track so barely get decent heat into the tyres to exploit their ultimate performance on the road. A softer compound tyres, with a tread wear rating under 200, will get up to temperature faster than a 300 TW tyre (PS4S) My experience of cup 2 s, they re great above temps of 5C - no probs in heavy rain if you drive to the conditions, as most do regardless of tyre brand. They re stiff, so have great turn-in but can be a bit crashy on the road, less comfortable for pooling around town or uneven surfaces. The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. So the company that manufactured the tyres fitted to EVERY Le Mans 24 hour winning car since 1998 don't know what they're doing ? It's an interesting perspective ... And you're suggesting that the same company that has supplied tyres to the FIA World Rally Championship numerous times between 1973 to 2020 and claimed 347 wins, 28 drivers titles with 12 different drivers, along with 30 manufacturer titles with 11 different manufacturers, don't know what they're doing ? This may bring some much needed perspective to your post ... : https://youtu.be/Rg-jtYXvI7M

maz8062 said: ...When it comes to tyres, I'm a sheep... On my Porsches, I've only ever driven on N-rated tyres...

N rated is only relevant on a new/new-ish Porsche surely, the car they were certified for? I don’t know about PS4S vs Cup 2’s but you’d hope the differences are as Michelin says they are. I have PS4S on one of my cars and they’re good. I tend to go for Goodyear’s generally, though. Evo tested PS4S types of tyres recently and arrived at this order. Tested at a Bridgestone facility. 1. Bridgestone Potenza Sport 2. Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperSport 3. Conti SportContact 7 4. Yokohama Advan Sport 5. Michelin PS4S 6. Pirelli P Zero

I'm on my third GT3. When I got my first, it had Cup 2 tyres on it. First day driving, going uphill on the road, in a straight line on a day when it was damp not wet and around 8C, I found myself losing traction and wriggling around - not ideal when it gets used a lot on the road. So I Changed to P-Zero which were great. Could make really good progress on any day, even in light snow. Since then, I've always had P-Zero. My new Touring comes this week and will receive P-Zeros before I collect it. It makes the car much more usable in any conditions. As an aside, the brand new set of Cup 2 tyres are for sale for you brave people out there!

ttdan said: maz8062 said: Michelin are the masters of marketing. They re the best at it. But you ll find that the majority of their tests are on track, sponsored by them and chosen by a YouTuber that very rarely gives a view other than, they re the best. 95% of owners do not drive their car on track so barely get decent heat into the tyres to exploit their ultimate performance on the road. A softer compound tyres, with a tread wear rating under 200, will get up to temperature faster than a 300 TW tyre (PS4S) My experience of cup 2 s, they re great above temps of 5C - no probs in heavy rain if you drive to the conditions, as most do regardless of tyre brand. They re stiff, so have great turn-in but can be a bit crashy on the road, less comfortable for pooling around town or uneven surfaces. The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. In my experiences, the biggest differences in tyres - for the street, is winter tyres at temps around zero and semi slicks in the summer. The rest do a job for how most drive on the roads. When you re next in your Porsche, check your average speed on your computer. You ll quickly realise that this is all marketing nonsense, unless you track the car. Edited by maz8062 on Tuesday 21st October 07:12 This YouTuber and his pal are so far up the Michelin rear pipe you can t even see them great tyres and I have bought plenty but I have had equal goodness from Conti s and Nankangs. Horses for courses. Yet Michelins often come near the top of all group tests with actual measurables.. So perhaps Ewetoober praise is warranted. PS4S and CS7 are my 2 favourite road tyres I've run. Followed by PS4 and GY Asymmetric 6. I suspect the GY Supersports would be up there if I'd tried them also.

maz8062 said: The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. You mean Pirelli paid more/offered the best deal to supply the tyres.. It's good marketing spend..

Jhonno said: maz8062 said: The other N rated tyres, including Pirelli s, are much of a muchness for the road. They all do a job for their intended purpose and lest we forget, Pirelli supply formula 1 with tyres - they know what they re doing but don t shout about it like Michelin. You mean Pirelli paid more/offered the best deal to supply the tyres.. It's good marketing spend.. ^ Exactly this. Though one has to remember this nonsense comes from the same individual who admits to driving around London at an average of 18mph on Cup 2s and yet considers himself a "tyre geek". Fortunately he can't skew the tyre reviews : https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre/Michelin/Pilot-Sp... "Buy again" 83% https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre/Pirelli/PZero-Ros... "Buy again" 54% Having run Pirelli P Zero Rossos on three cars (a BMW E46 330Ci, an Impreza P1 and a Mk1 996 GT3) I can say hand on heart, they're the worst tyres I've ever experienced. Intolerant of their pressure being even 1-2psi out, lethal in the wet when more than half worn, incredibly noisy when worn, flat spot after being left stationary for more than 72 hours. Definitely a contender for the worst tyres Pirelli have produced in the last 25 years. Saying that, if an individual will only use N rated tyres (many of which which could/would have been developed 20 + years ago) on their Porsche, they're probably not the tyre "geek" they consider themselves to be ...

I wonder why so many performance cars come fitted with Pirelli from the factory when so many people claim they're rubbish?

NDA said: I wonder why so many performance cars come fitted with Pirelli from the factory when so many people claim they're rubbish? Like the F1.. Best deal offered to supply I suspect.

Jhonno said: NDA said: I wonder why so many performance cars come fitted with Pirelli from the factory when so many people claim they're rubbish? Like the F1.. Best deal offered to supply I suspect. This ^ Nothing more, nothing less.

Like the Cup 2 , which back in the 964 RS days , were really marginal in rain /snow / low temp , modern ones are fine . Only had comparison Pirrelli vs Mich in slicks and no comparison the Mich are the best for 911 Race cars , then Goodyear /Dunlop with P very un predictable with very low start pressure to ally over heating 10-12 laps in as far as we remember

hunter 66 said: Like the Cup 2 , which back in the 964 RS days , were really marginal in rain /snow / low temp , modern ones are fine . Only had comparison Pirrelli vs Mich in slicks and no comparison the Mich are the best for 911 Race cars , then Goodyear /Dunlop with P very un predictable with very low start pressure to ally over heating 10-12 laps in as far as we remember On a trip this time last year to italian alps in the gt3,i had made one of my best decisions on tyre change to ps4 and leave cup tyres at home,rain was biblical at times with the wipers not working fast enough,scary at times etc,the tyres were nothing short of amazing. Agree mich is the best race tyres,the race wets are on another level,hard to get your head around the grip available.