Coolant leak - can it wait?

Hi, I brought my '08 Cayman S for service and they are reporting a coolant leak. I see coolant residue, but it's dry so it's possible it been there a long time. There's no coolant on the garage floor and the coolant level is normal. They tell me the fix requires taking the engine out of the car. I'm thinking of keeping the car another year or three. I would appreciate any thoughts, thanks. Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18 Show Content

Why don't you clean off those areas and then drive for a day or week and recheck? You'll have a much better idea of the rate of leaking. It doesn't look like much now. Of course you'll want to fix it but it doesn't look like an emergency at this point.

Just know the fluid is caustic as (bleep) sill have stained concrete from a TINY spill out of the jug, it won't be good for any metal it contacts outside the system either. But as Greg eluded to, as long as the level is maintained and the temperature stays at vertical it's fine while you consider the repair approaches.

Thanks! There is nothing at all on my garage floor. Is it possible to tell where it's leaking from those pictures? Now they are telling me it needs a head gasket, and if there is any further damage to the heads (which they won't know until the engine is out), it will of course require more repair. Is that leak coming from the head gasket? This is what they said. I don't know what they mean by "further" damage to the head. It doesn't look like there's any damage to the head to me. "Please note if there is further damage to the cylinder head there could be additional costs – this estimate includes only damage to the surface of the cylinder heads. We won’t know until the engine is removed and inspected if there is further damage. Initially it looks like surface repair."

Does the oil look like a chocolate milkshake? Not a perfect diagnosis but an indicator. It certainly could be a head gasket and that should be fixed ASAP, I'd be surprised if it didn't get worse over time. But that's just my opinion others may say something else. But if it overheats and warps the head then it's way worse.

There's no evidence of any oil at all. No sign of any overheating. No drop in coolant level in the tank and no coolant on the floor of the garage. The leak is dry, no sign of active drips or wet coolant. The engine purrs and revs like it was new. I'm thinking this might have been a one time deal. Some time in the past, some coolant seeped out and then stopped. It could have been a year ago, it could have been 5 years ago, but it's over and done. There was a time, maybe 8 years ago, where the level in the tank dropped a bit. I topped it off, but it's remained constant since then. Perhaps this is when the leak occurred?

Then back to racergreg for the win! Clean, observe and drive it.

Thanks! The shop wants $10K to drop the engine and replace the head gasket. I would do that if it were absolutely necessary, but right now I don't know that it is.

Have you ever done business with this shop? Were they recommended? I'm not saying they are wrong, but it's an aggressive approach.

Yes, I've been using this shop for years. They are highly regarded. Aggressive, yes, but you could also argue it's the conservative approach. Fix it to be sure it doesn't leak again in the future. I'm thinking their business has been taking a hit over the last few years (like a lot of businesses) and they are in search of revenue.

It's a 987 - no dipstick, so no way to tell what the oil looks like except to drain it. I'd assume (risky I know) that if they were doing a "service" on it that included an oil change if the oil looks like a milkshake, they'd note this. OP - the reason they are hedging on what might be the issue is - it might just be a head gasket, and it's leaking externally. It could also include something nasty like a cracked head - which would instantly become very costly. They're forwarning you of that possibility. As others noted - if you're ambitious you can get it up on a lift and clean up the area and then drive it a bit and see if the crud reappears. My WAG is it will - leaks don't typically cure themselves. Is it a head gasket - can't tell from those photos. Being there in person with an inspection mirror and perhaps an optical probe might make diagnosing it a bit easier. Right now - everything everyone in this thread has postulated is guesswork based on two not terribly informative pictures (I assume from the dealer.) The fact that you haven't seen coolant on your garage floor isn't really very revealing - it can just mean it evaporates from engine heat before it gets to hit the floor. If you sniff coolant - it's likely leaking.

I went to the shop to look for myself. The leaked coolant is all caked and dried up. I kept telling the guy that it's not currently leaking, the level isn't dropping, this was just a one time thing. I have some recollection of seeing some dried up coolant last time I did an oil change about 18 months ago. I didn't think anything of it at the time. He kept telling me it's bad, they don't do that. Lots of scare tactics, like if it damages the head we need to resurface it, and the other side too, otherwise there's an imbalance in compression. It's possible I could go another 3 years or so without any problems. That's kind of my time frame for replacing the car. That's about when I plan to retire and possibly move. I put about 2 or 3k miles on it per year. On the other hand, it could rupture tomorrow. Oh - the cost is going to go up. They didn't include a clutch in the original estimate. I was thinking if they take the engine out I should replace it. We discussed it, and they are going to add it to the estimate. I've got about 55K on it, they said they typically replace clutches around 60K, less if the owner doesn't know how to drive it. 60K seems a little short, but if they have the engine out it's just parts, no additional labor.

Not knowing where you're located - - in lots of the USA - garage queens are coming out of storage, meaning the mechanics are kept busy doing service/repairs. Most don't need to drum up work, although certainly, some may feel greedy. Like you said "it could rupture tomorrow.." - yeah, it could. The fact the coolant looks hard and dried up just means it's been (1) doing this for a while (2) it's on a hot part of the engine that bakes the moisture out of it. The G40 coolants are really pretty nasty when they dry up, they always leave that sort of deposit behind. It could have been leaking as you drove it to the shop, and dried up without a drop hitting the ground. FWIW - I have never had a coolant leak self-heal. That doesn't mean they never do - but it's somewhat unlikely IMHO. Question - when it lost coolant some time ago - did you look into the cause at that time? As you said - it could go another 3 years without a problem, or.. that's your gamble. It probably won't leave you totally stranded as long as you keep an eye on the coolant level. If it was me - I'd want to follow that trail of dried coolant to where it starts. Might it be something like a cracked coolant reservoir (quite common on ALL water-cooled Porsches for some reason)? I had a very well-respected local shop try to sell me new valve cover gaskets on my Cayenne - for about $1,000. What actually was leaking was the O ring on the oil filter housing. Cost to fix? Basically around $15 for a new plastic part of the housing that came with a new O ring. Were they looking for work? Well, it was winter and the garage queens were all bundled up sleeping in garages. As far as the clutch, a new disk and throwout bearing is a good thing to replace when it's apart. If you haven't slipped the crap out of it the flywheel and pressure plate could get a light sanding to break the glaze and should be fine. The most I ever got out of a disk was on a Volvo 1800S - 275,000 miles on the original clutch. Then I sold it. Last I heard it had something over 400,000 miles on it when a 3rd owner tracked me down asking if the clutch had ever been done - he was doing one. The deal with replacing the pressure plate and resurfacing the flywheel (actually impossible on a dual-mass flywheel - does Porsche use them?) is vastly overdone IMHO. It's insurance at your expense on the part of the shop doing the job - sorta like shops that always replace rotors when they do pads. They don't want to pay for the "come-backs".. Let us know what you decide - and what you do. $10k to pull a 987 engine - sounds awfully high to me.

Thanks Don, appreciate the reply. To answer some of your questions: Did we look into the cause when it lost coolant some time ago: yes, we did, and didn't find anything. You mentioned follow the trail of coolant: I looked at it myself. It's clearly along the line between the head and the block. The first picture shows pretty much all of the dried coolant. There's a little more off the top of the picture, but nothing above the head/block joint. They are saying it's the head gasket, it sure looks like that to me. Re the clutch, it's a "while you're in there" type repair. My clutch seems fine, but as long as they have the engine out it's not that much more in parts to replace it. They are recommending the water pump for the same reason. Yes - $10K does seem really really high. It's about $8k in labor and $2k in parts. They don't state their hourly rate, but even at $200/hour that's 40 hours. At $150/hour it's 53 hours... I found a clutch replacement how-to article, they say it should take 12 hours. Another article said 10 to remove the engine when the trans is already out. That's 22 hours. A few more to remove the head and replace the gasket, but still way less than the 50 or so they are claiming.

I just got off the phone with another shop. He says it's highly unlikely this car has a failed head gasket. The water pump is above the spot where it's leaking, that's the most likely cause. This makes more sense, as there are no other signs of a head gasket failure. It's not buring oil, there is no excessive moisture in the exhaust, there is no oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil, anything like that.

Water pumps on these cars are a known issue. I got bit by it recently myself (while out of town on a weekend, no less). Hopefully that's indeed the problem and you save about 9 grand. From the photos, it's hard to tell exactly where this is on the engine though the first photo looks like head-to-crankcase given where the exhaust sits in the picture. I'm having a hard time matching that to my memory of where the water pump lives though, as it's mounted low on the passenger side of the crankcase and the only thing below it are the hoses feeding the rads and heater core and empty air. At least it is on my 07 base. I'm not aware of head gaskets being a remotely common failure on these cars, but a given percentage of any model could see those gaskets fail. I'm certainly not an expert in how the cooling passages are routed, but it's entirely possible the routing allows for a gasket failure to occur such that an external leak happens without coolant and oil mixing. Someone may correct me, but IIRC some Subaru boxers can fail in exactly that way. Hopefully that isn't the case for you, and I second others in thinking 10k for the job is high. The engine certainly would need to come out to be able to get at all the bolts, but sheesh that labor estimate is up there. If you do go whole hog, don't forget the rear main seal as part of the "while you're in there" stuff. Also, @deilenberger since you questioned it above, these cars do indeed use a dual mass flywheel from the factory. More fun when it inevitably becomes clutch time.

Thanks everyone for all the support and information. I'm starting to think it actually is an external head gasket leak. While the shop I went to might charge excessively, I have a hard time thinking they'd lie to me. I called a couple other shops. Two import shops that do Porsche 's but don't call themselves Porsche specialists are quoting $4k to $5k. Two Porsche specialist shops are quoting $10k. Maybe that extra $5K is the Porsche tax. I took a better look from above. I don't see any evidence of any coolant anywhere except right along the seam between the head and the block. There's no evidence of it leaking down from anywhere above the spot I see. I found a random picture of an engine on the internet. I added this read line to show where the leak is (I might have the position wrong though, it might be just to the left. It's kind of hard to tell where the gasket is). It's the driver side at the back. The water pump is on the passenger side on the front. While I need a water pump for sure, I don't think it's the source of this coolant residue.

OK, so given that's where it's leaking I'd say 100% head gasket. To my knowledge there'd be no other way for coolant to get there, and it looked to be pretty well localized to that seam. Sucks to hear, yo. 4-5k sounds more reasonable for the labor if you can trust the shop. My local Euro shop aren't P-car specialists, but they're the only real game in town and they haven't done me dirty on any of their work (and they seem to do a good job of following proper spec for replacement parts / torque / process / etc). But then, they may be less thorough at your joint. Good luck, and I hope your CS comes out the other side good as new!

I think in considering the price of the repair job - people should realize fairly major engine disassembly will be required to replace the head gasket. Both sides should probably be done since much of the labor will have to be done just to do one side. Since in all likelihood - the leak was caused by a warped head (possibly overheated) and the head will need to be cut to flat again, as the shop mentioned - better if both sides are done to avoid an imbalance due to different compression ratios due to the cut head. So - doing it right - both sides come off. Removing the heads requires removing first the valve gallery and camshafts, which requires removing the cover over the timing chains, and removal of the chains. Since this is an '08 - it still has an intermediate shaft bearing- and as long as you're that far along the disassembly process - if it's replaceable without splitting the cases - now would be the time to do it. Even if it required splitting the cases to replace it - some people may consider this worth doing at this point since the engine will be disassembled so far, to begin with. Then there is replacing things like the water pump, idlers, belt, perhaps plugs/coils, lots of seals and gaskets, and the clutch assembly. Since this apparently is considered a high-end/high-quality Porsche shop, chances are they won't do less than what they think will result in a satisfactory conclusion. If they didn't do something like the IMS bearing and it failed later, or if they didn't do both sides resulting in an engine imbalance condition - that creates an unhappy customer who may claim the shop did bad work. Their reputation is undoubtedly worth more than missing out on one job if the customer takes it elsewhere. Before deciding what shop to use - make certain you're comparing apples to apples - get detailed quotes from all the shops and let those factor into the decision. If they don't want to give a detailed estimate - run-away, run-away - there are sure to be "surprises" during the work that will require more $$.

Solid points. I've not done a P-car, but I have done head gaskets on other vehicles myself and it's true there's a lot of additional "while you're in there" stuff since you're already taking everything off down to the deck. Generally speaking this is included in the initial estimate (e.g. no shop in their right mind would only do one side or fail to mill the heads if they've gone out of spec; if they don't, RUN), but having all of it in writing, itemized, is a very good idea. And also just generally good practice for a reputable shop to do - my joint will always give me a breakdown over the phone when I call in to set up an appointment. I've not had them do something this complex where a written estimate would make more sense. I'd imagine there's a combination of higher shop-labor rate and more than the average "while you're in there" on the P-car shop's side. You start getting into things like idlers and pulleys and coils that can be done easily later with the engine in the car and it's a grey area (my opinion) unless they're showing signs of failure on disassembly. Even then, it's literally just adding parts cost, as much of that needs to come off for disassembly anyway. However if the cheaper shop isn't budgeting in internal things like valve guides or timing chain guides and tensioners, they should be looked at. It's possible that the 4-5k estimate is just drop engine, pull both heads, inspect and mill if needed, replace head and valve cover gaskets, and reinstall engine without any extra stuff. In which case OP should be at least getting some estimates on said extras before committing. Again, most of the extra stuff should just be added parts cost since they're literally already performing the labor and removing the old parts anyway on a lot of it. Also, FWIW 08 should have the final revision IMS and therefore require the crankcase to be split for mitigation. Were it my car, I wouldn't go that far as at that point you may as well just commit to a full rebuild, and those final bearings aren't known to fail with any real regularity AFAIK.

I think my Cayman is probably OK. I cleaned up all the residue and did several 30 to 45 minute drives. There doesn't appear to be any leakage. There is a tiny little bit of residue, but that might just be some leftover from when I cleaned it, out of reach from the toothbrush I used to clean it, and it has gradually emerged. When I say tiny little bit, it really is tiny. Like 1/1000th of a drop. But this begs the question: where did this come from in the first place? Based on previous maintenance, it had to have happened in the last three years. All I've done in that time is these easy 30 to 45 minute drives. No track driving, no autocross, nothing that would stress the engine at all. I can't imagine it could have gotten really hot doing that, besides, if it had gotten really hot, I would expect the leak to come from a hose or fitting or something, they are weaker links than the head gasket.

I took it to different shop to get the water pump replaced. I asked him about that coolant leak. I showed him the picture and the spot I had cleaned up. There was another guy in the shop, he offered the opinion that it might only leak when really cold. The metal contracts just enough to let a little coolant seep out. He asked how often I drive it and suggested if I drove it more I wouldn’t see the leak. He thought if I didn’t drive for a month I’d see the leak come back. That fits with my driving it quite a bit less than normal during the pandemic. I Googled it and found a few people reporting the same thing (not Caymans specifically, but other people reporting external head gasket leaks when cold), so it’s not completely unheard of. On the other hand, it doesn't get particularly cold where I live. I’m not 100% convinced this explains the leak. But if this is the cause there isn’t much to worry about. I’ll keep an eye on the coolant level and the spot it leaks from for sure. It might gradually get worse over time, but it's unlikely to suddenly rupture. If anyone has any thoughts on this I would like to hear them.

Any updates on this?

No, nothing new to report. Like I mentioned above, I cleaned up the residue and am keeping an eye on it. Occasionally a little bit of residue reappears. It's just a tiny little red spot. I've also been keeping an eye on the coolant level. As I mentioned, I got the water pump replaced, unrelated to the leak. These cars need a new water pumps at 40 or 50k. Mine was due. However they didn't fill the coolant completely. I actually got a low coolant warning on the way home. I topped it off and kept an eye on it. I had to top it off several times. I was worried that the original head gasket leak was leaking internally, but over time I've had to add less and less coolant. Last time I checked it was still full. I will continue to keep an eye on the leak and on the coolant level, but since it's been about 2.5 years since the leak was originally spotted, I think I'm all set.