996 age con!

Posted on 997 forum by mistake! Just bought a 996 c4s from a dealer advertising it as a 2005 05 reg. car. He assured me it had 2 months or so warranty, checked the V5 doc. and had an AA and HPI check which both state the car was manufactured in 2005 so parted with nearly £50k. Turns out the thing was manufactured in 2003! Have got my solicitors on the case and will ultimately sue for damages. Has anyone got any advice or come across this sort of thing before? Any help would be much appreciated as this is my first Porsche and not a good experience, although driving it was fantastic!

The (modl) year of manufacturer is encoded into the VIN, so it should be easy to work out what year it is. Note that model years run from August in the previous year to July of the model year. i.e. a 2005 model year car could be built between August 2004 and July 2005. The date of registration is a different matter. This is when the car is first registered on the road, which will obviously be after the manufacture date. 2 years is a big difference though - haven't come across that much before. But, if the dealer advertised it as a 2005 05 reg car, when was it actually registered ?

It's a huge difference diesel. The car was registered in the uk in March 05, so it is an 05 reg car but not a 2005 car. The VIN shows zzz99z3.....so it was made in 2003. You can also get a letter of origin from Porsche UK which will state the day it left the factory, where it went to, what the engine & VIN is etc. which I have, costs £64. Just had a call from trading standards who also say it has been clearly mis-described and is therefore contrary to the sale of goods act. They will also investigate. I really want to make others out there aware of this sort of thing. I have had top notch legal advice from a well respected lawyer, free because he's a family friend, (he's also far too expensive to deal with a £50k caseso won't be representing me!) others might not be so lucky and I hate garages conning innocent buyers.

I had a similar case years ago in my boy racer days it was a 205gti I was told it was a 1991 car but was registered in 1990. The VIN number tells you want year the model is ie a 996 registered in late 2000 is a 2001 model car. Howard Watts Porsche in Boxford has an unregistered 996 which was built in 2000. I'm not sure if you have a case as the car could well have been sitting in a wearhouse for some reason unsold but there should be differences between a 2003 car and a 2005 car, did you get an indepentdent inspection carried out?

No independent inspection but I do have a case. Your garage in Boxford wouldn't be able to advertise the car as a 2007 car if they sold it now. They have to say it's a 2000 which has been unregistered. Good to have trading standards opinion too that it was falsely represented on the advert.

I hope you do sort it out as the difference in re sale value will be alot, my car is a 2001 996 and I paid £27,500 for it the guy is out of order and has pulled a fast one, I think a well worded letter from your brief and a visit from TS will help. Would you keep the car if he refunded you £10 -15K?

Thanks Adi. I'm in the process of getting some valuations for the car in the form it is and what it was sold as, should make interesting reading. Then we'll sue for this plus costs, should be a tidy sum. I'm very much looking forward to telling you guys how it all pans out. I'm happy to sue for damages and keep the car, it took me long enough to find exactly what I wanted (at least I was led to beleive it was what I wanted)!

Question for you HG What if the dealer you bough the car from, was told by the person who traded the car into him that it was an 05? another example would be, lets say the first owner of a car has a crash repair, gets it fixed, but 3 years later and 2 owners (and 2 trades) more, the car ends up on a forecourt, and the dealer tells you, "no accident damage", but you find out that ther was accident damage, its entirly possible the current dealer has no knowledge of the original repair, would he be liable too?

Denis...., as a Porsche Specialist the onus is on him to do due diligence. It is very, very easy to tell the year of manufacture from the VIN. I didn't know this at the time and relied on AA Data Check to tell me the age, they got it wrong, but as a layman I have been diligent, as a dealer they haven't. Again, regarding accident damage, this would have shown up on the AA report if it were serious damage. Ignorance is no defence in law, if you set yourself up as a Specialist, the onus is on you to ascertain the facts. When you sell a vehicle, or anything else for that matter, you have to represent it accurately. If you are unsure of the age, say, of a vehicle, say so or don't mention it in your advert etc. In answer then to your question, yes he would be liable too if he had stated no accident damage. At best this would be negligent mis-representation but may be considered fraudulent misrep, if the damage can be shown to be easily recognised by an expert.

HG to call oneself a Porsche Specialist means nothing, in life and in law, any judge will ask you if you wanted a real Porsche Specialist why didnt you buy from Porsche?. To say one is a specialist can mean he only sells the Porsche brand vehicles, it doesn't mean he knows all about them? Thats the OPC's position in the market. What if he says he relied on the AA check too? I'm pretty sure "let the buyer beware" will be his case as he didnt sell you new goods, with a fit description, but offered you a used car, with a description to the best of his knowledge, which you accepted. I'm pretty sure you have a case to get your money back, albeit things like this should always be sorted on a goodwill basis, I am not quiet sure I see a case for "damages" I read your case on the 997 thread, and picked up some more info on this unfortunate situation. Lashing in with the lawyers means they will be the only ones to win. Can't you sit down with the dealer and come to some agreement? Who needs a lengthy case, with you driving around in a depreciating piece of steel, and your money in someone else's pocket? Just my heads up. You have my complete sympathy by they way. I know its hard especially with the feeling your being ripped off.

Have read this saga and I am sure you will get it sorted out ..I looked at a Targa some time ago and was drawn to the C98 which I knew was a import and not a C16 uk car I phone around and was given some good advise from Virgin 911 as to the pros and cons of a import and during the conversation they asked me did I have the vin no ,it turned out that the car was built some18 months earlier I was not aware as this model was still being produced at the time when the car was registered and to be fair I though I had some knowledge on porsche ..I do know that any car registered in 2005 should be a 997 and 996 stopped around 2004 as a novice I understand how you could have been mislead as you had no previous porsche experiance ..there is a very large cash differance between what you have and what you think you had bought I would go for the full return of my cash as the car will always be a import and will impact on future values ,there are hundreds of 996 out there I am sure there is one for you ,do not let this put you off the marque

Kit. It's fine to buy an import if you're paying the right price and are aware of what you are buying. I'm sure someday someone will love driving this car as it really is (was) a pleasure to drive. Aparently the 996 C4S & turbo were still being produced up to around June 2005 so it could have been a genuine 2005 c4s. My advice to anyone buying a Porsche is to always look at the VIN and figure out when the car was built, it's easy when you know how. I'm sure I'm not the only one to rely on an AA and HPI check (both of which were wrong) for information. I agree, there is a large difference between the two but either way, car back or cashback, I don't mind. P.S. Nice webby, good way to do a bit of advertising!

I expect the dealer will wriggle out of it by saying that 2005/05 referred to the registration date, and it doen't imply the manufacturing date/registration date. I'm not trying to defend the dealer, but I suspect that he also didn't check the VIN for the manufacturing date. However, I'm sure any half-decent one would check the country code. Is yours a C16 (UK) car? If so, where the heck was it hanging around for two years? The VIN decoder here may also help anyone else with a similar query: https://www.porscheclubgb.com/legacy/clientftp/Register/996/PorscheVINDecoder.html Whatever the outcome it will leave a nasty taste, and I sympathise. If Trading Standards are taking it up them youu may have a positive result from them. Best of luck.

Thanks for the decoder RM, will be useful next time! That's exactly what he's saying that 2005 05reg means a car registered in 2005 with an 05 suffix......crap, trading standards agree that it means it's a 2005 car. It's a c98, Cyprus, so exactly, after it was pdi'd in early 03 where was it? It also didn't have any service until april 06 so it doesn't have a fsh as advertised. I've got a very good case against this garage and actually enjoy, in a masochistic sort of way, the fight against this dealer. I know it will cost me money but at least it may save other people from being ripped off because they don't have the money to fight or perhaps the will etc.

hg, Good luck to you, you seem to have a good case. There was a thread on Pistonheads recently about someone who took their dealer to court and won....lots of legal advice on the thread seemed to suggest that the courts very much tend to favour the car buyer vs the dealer, and that in the vast majority of cases dealers would best settle out of court. Fingers crossed for a good result for you and all your legal costs reimbursed.

Now that's the kind of good news I like on a Saturday morning Rod! Thanks for that, I shall see if I can find the thread on Pistonheads, unless you have the link?

Hi Paul, I just tried searching myself...no luck...pretty sure it was on the Porsche forum around 2 months ago, about someone taking RSJ and the RAC (RSJ provided the buyer with an RAC warranty) to court over trying to reneg on a warranty claim on a blown 996 engine. The buyer subsequently bought a new engine (at 12k) and then took RSJ and the RAC to court and claimed back 5k from the RAC (max cover) and RSJ for the remaining 7k and another 7k for legal costs. RSJ now only advise buyers to purchase a Porsche warranty. Lots of legal advice on that thread that may be of interest to you. Good luck Paul.

Had a look myself earlier, so many threads I lost count! Thanks anyway Rod.

hg....go for it name and SHAME......can't think why some posts here are a bit vague but you bought a 2003 car and not a 2005 model car pure and simple the dealer would have known believe me, the grief he would have given the seller at the time, nice car mate but it's still a 2003, they are very very very streetwise an absolute sham NAME AND SHAME.......

You're right CB some people are a bit vague. It loks pretty straight forward although legally you have to tread carefully. But as I've done nothing wrong or told any lies at all about this matter I shall tell you the dealer..........G.C.Motors in Wetherby Nr. Leeds. www.gcmotors.co.uk/

hg, here is the link to the thread on PH ,to which Rodney refers http://www.petrolheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=355771&r=4854561&hm=19764#4854561 this details the outcome of the court case, with a link in the first posting to the original thread. Good look!! Ant

Nice one Ant, very interesting reading. I do have some sympathy for the dealer in this case, it would appear to me that they at least offered to do something about the problem and it's one that probaly should never have gone to court.

Well done Ant on finding the thread! I agree Paul, the dealer did get a bit of a bad deal. But what's really interesting is that the buyer bought a new 12k engine and got away with it even though he really should only have been entitled to a used one. The court awarded him everything he wanted (good news for you). Most other posters say the guys at RSJ are a great bunch, so it's a real shame it ever got to that stage.

called into a highly reputable local exotic vehicle retailer (an excuse to ogle the Carrera GT) as they had a 2002 15k miles Carrera 4 at a surprisingly keen price and whilst I love my 996, the thought of a newer car with such a low mileage was not wholly without interest. As soon as i said i was interested in the C4 the first thing i was told was that it was a pre-facelift 2001 car registered in 2002 and an import. enough said.

That's fair enough though Rob, at least they were honest enough to tell you the true origins and history of the car. At least the difference in age was one year, imagine how I felt when I found out my car was 4 years old, not 2!