All 991 GT3`s recalled after 2 go up in smoke ...... Ooooops - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Someone is going to have a bad day !! http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/20/us-porsc... "(Reuters) - Porsche (VOWG_p.DE) said it will recall all 785 models of its 911 GT3 sports-car that have been delivered worldwide this year after two of them caught fire. Volkswagen-owned Porsche said on Thursday it would check the engines of the GT3, the most expensive version of its overhauled 911 two-seater, and recommended owners not to use the vehicles. Engineers at Porsche are still examining the remains of the gutted vehicles used in Switzerland and Italy to determine the cause of the fires."

http://www.porsche.com/uk/aboutporsche/pressreleas... Porsche AG Current Press releases Porsche inspecting engines of current 911 GT3 models Inspection of all 911 GT3 vehicles of model year 2014l Stuttgart. The sports car producer Porsche is inspecting all engines of 911 GT3 vehicles of model year 2014. Porsche is informing the owners of the affected vehicles directly and recommending that they stop using their vehicles. The company is offering to pick up the vehicles and take them to a Porsche Centre immediately. Safety is a number one priority at Porsche, and the company takes its responsibility seriously. After engine damage occurred in two vehicles in Europe and the vehicles then caught fire. Porsche decided to inspect all 785 delivered vehicles worldwide. There was no traffic accident and no personal injure. Internal studies to determine the cause of the engine damage have not been completed yet. Porsche will report on any new findings immediately.

I am that person. New GT3 supposed to be delivered over a week ago. Delivery frozen by Porsche and now sitting in OPC outside compound pending resolution. Dealer has not been told anything and Porsche GB are utterly useless. No information whatsoever. Dealer has confirmed likely weeks to resolution / logistics / parts availability etc - anyone hoping for 1st March delivery is going to be disappointed, stalled by Porsche incompetence. Latest press release hides behind safety but Porsche response lamentable / glacial.

I had one of the first 991 C2S cars and that was rubbish too. I doubt I would ever buy a new model Porsche again; they aren't adequately sorted before they are released to the customer and then Porsche is dismal at rectifying the situation.

I've been offered a hire car from enterprise for as long as I need it! Wow. Thanks Porsche. I pay you over £100k for your product. You tell me not to use it because a fire may engulf the car. And you expect me to accept a cheap hire car. I would like any flavour of PDK 991. Am I unreasonable? Note. Has to be PDK as I don't do a manual anymore! :-)

Monch said: ....... And you expect me to accept a cheap hire car. I would like any flavour of PDK 991. Am I unreasonable? Absolutely not ..... they have had your deposit for months before you even saw the car and now its here , you can`t have it. How much money would that have made if you played the stocks and shares instead of handing it to Porsche. A loan car of similar quality at the very least surely.

Monch said: I've been offered a hire car from enterprise for as long as I need it! Wow. Thanks Porsche. I pay you over £100k for your product. You tell me not to use it because a fire may engulf the car. And you expect me to accept a cheap hire car. I would like any flavour of PDK 991. Am I unreasonable? Note. Has to be PDK as I don't do a manual anymore! :-) I had a very nice Clio from Enterprise a few weeks ago. I would have thought the supplying dealer should step in here. They, after all, sold you a dodgy motor.

You are not being unreasonable at all. Enterprise rental car ? Typical Porsche...I think they have inadequately tested the car and are now panicking about what it is going to cost them to fix. That is the reason for the sloooooow response - they are looking for the cheapest fix possible. At least you have had the opportunity to drive the car - is it any good ? I am tempted to tell them to stick their shonky car. I also have a Cayenne...being serviced at the moment. The service loan car is a Panamera - you should at least get something similar. My OPC is telling me to anticipate an engine out fix based on info I have obtained......nothing at all from Porsche..perfect, not even delivered, major repair required, no info, car sitting in open and weeks until resolution. For you sir...£118,000 Porsche GB suck.

Far Cough said: ...the GT3, the most expensive version of its overhauled 911 two-seater... That's carefully worded but still not quite right. It's not the most expensive 911 and is the ONLY 2 seater 911.

Dhol01 said: You are not being unreasonable at all. Enterprise rental car ? Typical Porsche...I think they have inadequately tested the car and are now panicking about what it is going to cost them to fix. That is the reason for the sloooooow response - they are looking for the cheapest fix possible. At least you have had the opportunity to drive the car - is it any good ? I am tempted to tell them to stick their shonky car. I also have a Cayenne...being serviced at the moment. The service loan car is a Panamera - you should at least get something similar. My OPC is telling me to anticipate an engine out fix based on info I have obtained......nothing at all from Porsche..perfect, not even delivered, major repair required, no info, car sitting in open and weeks until resolution. For you sir...£118,000 Porsche GB suck. At this point, if you are unhappy, can't you just cancel and get your deposit back? On another note, looks like the red one at Romans has been sold well above list. Bad timing for the new owner.

thegoose said: Far Cough said: ...the GT3, the most expensive version of its overhauled 911 two-seater... That's carefully worded but still not quite right. It's not the most expensive 911 and is the ONLY 2 seater 911. Thats the Reuters quote from the link which is why its in exclamation marks. Not what I said !!!!!

Fair comment....but having parted with £10k 10 months ago...largely as an act of faith....I want the car. Reviews have turned out to be great and still want the car. Cannot tell you how disappointed I am. No 1st March delivery, major repair required and Porsche don't give a stuff...

Watch Sunday's Top Gear for a solution to this GT3 issue. They really nailed it this time.

rubystone said: Watch Sunday's Top Gear for a solution to this GT3 issue. They really nailed it this time. Do they have a solution for the CL wheels having a risk of falling off if used on track and the hubs aren't replaced every couple of years too?

I do hope Porsche get this problem resolved and QUICKLY. I'd be pretty pissed off if I were an owner or still waiting for my overdue delivery with these issues hanging over the car

HoHoHo said: I do hope Porsche get this problem resolved and QUICKLY. I'd be pretty pissed off if I were an owner or still waiting for my overdue delivery with these issues hanging over the car Yep. Porsche seems fairly relaxed about dicking customers about, however their flagship car being recalled right across the board is not going to do them any favours. I used to be a "Porsche guy" but their apparent contempt for customers and poor quality control has put me off. Probably for good. Porsche understands that "the experience" is what makes customers buy a brand, and they impose upon dealers vigorous standards to ensure that they deliver a good experience. Then Porsche themselves apparently go out their way to make the experience as s t as possible.

Eleven said: Porsche understands that "the experience" is what makes customers buy a brand, and they impose upon dealers vigorous standards to ensure that they deliver a good experience. Then Porsche themselves apparently go out their way to make the experience as s t as possible. That resonates.

ttdan said: Eleven said: Porsche understands that "the experience" is what makes customers buy a brand, and they impose upon dealers vigorous standards to ensure that they deliver a good experience. Then Porsche themselves apparently go out their way to make the experience as s t as possible. That resonates. Based on my experience this year. I don't believe Porsche care about 'the experience' at all. My 'experience' has been nothing short of abysmal and was made worse by Porsche GB's customer service themselves. Don't hold your breath hoping they'll do the right thing ... you'll turn blue.

they have got to a point where it matters not to look after customers now, they just sell miles more cars service many more cars at double the price, SO a victim of their own success. even resale is poor because the markets flooded on the run of the mill cars. the Macan will make them even more £££££

Far Cough said: thegoose said: Far Cough said: ...the GT3, the most expensive version of its overhauled 911 two-seater... That's carefully worded but still not quite right. It's not the most expensive 911 and is the ONLY 2 seater 911. Thats the Reuters quote from the link which is why its in exclamation marks. Not what I said !!!!! I realised that, didn't mean to make it look like you'd written it yourself, sorry.

Better a bit of admin chaos for new customers - and an ultimately well publicised, quick and successful recall, than a whole load of cars going up in flames on driveways, garages or motorways. If I had one, I'd dump it on the doorstep of the local OPC and tell them to let me know when its fixed. I can't imagine many of these are daily drivers. Loads of makes and models have recalls - we've just had one on the Evoque. So what? The car gets fixed. Dunno what the fuss is about to be honest.

mrdemon said: they have got to a point where it matters not to look after customers now, they just sell miles more cars service many more cars at double the price, SO a victim of their own success. even resale is poor because the markets flooded on the run of the mill cars. the Macan will make them even more £££££ Exactly. It's telling that the current MD of Porsche GB comes from a VW background. Porsche is now a volume producer of cars and it's quantity rather than quality that matters. It's frustrating because I'm just a big fan of their cars - it's people who are the problem. It makes me wonder if I would enjoy a better experience in a different Porsche market like Germany or Switzerland or if it's the same everywhere.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufactur... “Safety is the top priority and owners have been advised not to use their car,” a spokesman for Porsche in the UK told The Telegraph. Porsche will offer to transport the car back to the dealership for an inspection of the engine, however the spokesman denied it was a recall. “It’s not a recall in the strict sense of the word. We’re offering customers the opportunity to bring the car back.” Hilarious. "You can keep the car; it will probably catch fire and you will be maimed or die horribly clawing at the window whilst you are slowly engulfed by flames. Or you can return it to the supplying dealer. Please don't allow us to twist your arm, the choice is yours, this isn't a recall."

Eleven said: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufactur... “Safety is the top priority and owners have been advised not to use their car,” a spokesman for Porsche in the UK told The Telegraph. Porsche will offer to transport the car back to the dealership for an inspection of the engine, however the spokesman denied it was a recall. “It’s not a recall in the strict sense of the word. We’re offering customers the opportunity to bring the car back.” Hilarious. "You can keep the car; it will probably catch fire and you will be maimed or die horribly clawing at the window whilst you are slowly engulfed by flames. Or you can return it to the supplying dealer. Please don't allow us to twist your arm, the choice is yours, this isn't a recall."

So we have a go when they do recall and also when they don't good on them for sorting it imho. TX.

We are two weeks in and Porsche do not have a clue what the problem is or at least they are telling no one. Everything is conjecture. They will look into in their own good time. Never mind paying £110k+ for a new car and then being told that you mustn't use it....especially as the mobility option offered is from the cheap end of whatever Enterprise rent a car can provide. It is all about communication and managing customers expectations. Nobody would mind being contacted along the lines of "terribly sorry, problem with your car which is X...book it in for fix and in the meantime, here is something comparable" What we have is either "you cannot have your new car which is sitting at dealer or please bring back your new car and don't use it for the foreseeable future. We have no idea what is wrong with it, if we do, we are not going to tell you and we have no idea of a timescale to resolve" In the meantime, please enjoy your Enterprise Nova. Clueless, volume manufacturer, useless engineers and lazy management.

Terminator X said: So we have a go when they do recall and also when they don't good on them for sorting it imho. Absolutely. How many other manufacturers would lift a finger to stop their new flagship £120,000 supercar from spontaneously combusting?

I don't get the safety issue. If the fire is due to a major engine failure con rod through the block spraying oil on a hot exhaust, well I think you may have noticed something was wrong before the car went up in flames. I am confident that you would have time to get out of the vehicle before the fire got major. Now wonder if Porsche will be dropping the max revs down to preserve engines and if this will have a detrimental effect on values of early production cars. I can"t say that I would want a car that had needed a full engine rebuild especially if this was done at a Porsche dealership. Only a new replacement engine would be acceptable to me.

RAWENG said: I don't get the safety issue. If the fire is due to a major engine failure con rod through the block spraying oil on a hot exhaust, well I think you may have noticed something was wrong before the car went up in flames. I am confident that you would have time to get out of the vehicle before the fire got major. Now wonder if Porsche will be dropping the max revs down to preserve engines and if this will have a detrimental effect on values of early production cars. I can"t say that I would want a car that had needed a full engine rebuild especially if this was done at a Porsche dealership. Only a new replacement engine would be acceptable to me. You dont think this is a safety issue? Wow.

Slippydiff said: Not aware that anyone has said that the fires have been started by catastrophic engine failures ?? Rod failure talk comes from these articles http://www.welt.de/motor/article124932004/Warum-ei... http://www.focus.de/auto/news/mehrere-faelle-von-t...

Just received my letter this morning telling me not to drive the car. It also says that compensation is currently being considered?? Bit annoyed that delivery for new models was stopped on 11/02/2014 and I only got confirmation today not to drive. Ive done 1500 miles in the car since I got it and was out in it Thursday. My OPC said last night (he read the email to me from Porsche Cars GB)that they have been instructed to register new cars and hand them out to GT3 owners to use while the issue is rectified. This will obviously take time. If a run-around is wanted meantime, call warranty/breakdown and they will supply a bog standard car. Chin Up!

If indeed this is the case, not a great start for the new lump. Wonder if a select few inside are now ruing the decision they took to ditch the perfectly fine "other" one.

I am an owner of a 991 Gt3 which is currently sitting in garage with no solution to problem, much like others I have been provided a BMW 3 series 2.0D for my use, not exactly on the same level!. Porsche have been telling me they are going to write to all owners but have got nothing. Why should I pay for a car that I can not use, not to mention insurance and TAX etc. Porsche have an obligation to test cars prior to manufacture and compensate customers when there production car is no longer safe and fit for purpose, it is important to note Porsche have not referred to this as a recall as this is only possible once the problem has been found. I am supposed to be going to Europe at the weekend, going to Spa , Ring, Monza and Fiorano cost 3K (no refund possible now) I have no car to use and Porsche have given me a BMW 3 series 2.0D and I have been told they are unable to supply me with a car (hire cars are not able to go out of country, not that I would be driving it). How do we make Porsche wake up and admit they have an obligation to there customers.

I know many of us were worried that the Mezger replacement wouldn't be up to the revs/output etc. I've not read the technical information about the 991 GT3 engine, but from my factory visit 18 months back the guy seemed to think it wasn't a drysump racing engine, but instead a derivative of the production line Cayman/Boxster/Carrera lump. It seemed fairly clear the general build quality etc was lost with the 996, but at least the engine lived on in the turbo/GT cars. I do hope we've not left the entire bulletproof Porsche episode in the past now. I honestly don't see anything since (borderline) the 997 GT2 that makes we want to move out of my 996 GT2, at the moment the 430 is top of the list.

Does this problem with oil leaking onto the exhaust also extend to the possibility of leaking onto the rear wheels? Only ask because of this . . . http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Eleven said: Porsche understands that "the experience" is what makes customers buy a brand, and they impose upon dealers vigorous standards to ensure that they deliver a good experience. I think they must have missed my OPC. My experience with them over a four years period with three 911s was so unremittingly abysmal and vigorously awful I will never buy a new Porsche again.

Porsche Cars GB and my OPC have gone very quiet despite my email to them Mon morning asking what the position was re a replacement Porsche Car, uplift for commencement of repair but more importantly the fact I am still within my rights to return the car. That's actually the last thing I want to do but with a deposit down on a GT3RS its a strong option. They may have identified the issue in the engine by then? Charles.

Charles22 said: Porsche Cars GB and my OPC have gone very quiet despite my email to them Mon morning asking what the position was re a replacement Porsche Car, uplift for commencement of repair but more importantly the fact I am still within my rights to return the car. That's actually the last thing I want to do but with a deposit down on a GT3RS its a strong option. They may have identified the issue in the engine by then? Charles. Are we technically within our rights to return the car - I would have thought that they had the right to try to fix first ? What makes you say that ?

damonsmith151071 said: I am an owner of a 991 Gt3 which is currently sitting in garage with no solution to problem, much like others I have been provided a BMW 3 series 2.0D for my use, not exactly on the same level!. Porsche have been telling me they are going to write to all owners but have got nothing. Why should I pay for a car that I can not use, not to mention insurance and TAX etc. Porsche have an obligation to test cars prior to manufacture and compensate customers when there production car is no longer safe and fit for purpose, it is important to note Porsche have not referred to this as a recall as this is only possible once the problem has been found. I am supposed to be going to Europe at the weekend, going to Spa , Ring, Monza and Fiorano cost 3K (no refund possible now) I have no car to use and Porsche have given me a BMW 3 series 2.0D and I have been told they are unable to supply me with a car (hire cars are not able to go out of country, not that I would be driving it). How do we make Porsche wake up and admit they have an obligation to there customers. You forgot to mention the depreciation ( most significant cost ) and the warranty period reducing whilst not in use Sorry to hear that your trip is ruined

damonsmith151071 said: I am an owner of a 991 Gt3 which is currently sitting in garage with no solution to problem, much like others I have been provided a BMW 3 series 2.0D for my use, not exactly on the same level!. Porsche have been telling me they are going to write to all owners but have got nothing. Why should I pay for a car that I can not use, not to mention insurance and TAX etc. Porsche have an obligation to test cars prior to manufacture and compensate customers when there production car is no longer safe and fit for purpose, it is important to note Porsche have not referred to this as a recall as this is only possible once the problem has been found. I am supposed to be going to Europe at the weekend, going to Spa , Ring, Monza and Fiorano cost 3K (no refund possible now) I have no car to use and Porsche have given me a BMW 3 series 2.0D and I have been told they are unable to supply me with a car (hire cars are not able to go out of country, not that I would be driving it). How do we make Porsche wake up and admit they have an obligation to there customers. You forgot to mention the depreciation ( most significant cost ) and the warranty period reducing whilst not in use Sorry to hear that your trip is ruined

damonsmith151071 said: I am an owner of a 991 Gt3 which is currently sitting in garage with no solution to problem, much like others I have been provided a BMW 3 series 2.0D for my use, not exactly on the same level!. Porsche have been telling me they are going to write to all owners but have got nothing. Why should I pay for a car that I can not use, not to mention insurance and TAX etc. Porsche have an obligation to test cars prior to manufacture and compensate customers when there production car is no longer safe and fit for purpose, it is important to note Porsche have not referred to this as a recall as this is only possible once the problem has been found. I am supposed to be going to Europe at the weekend, going to Spa , Ring, Monza and Fiorano cost 3K (no refund possible now) I have no car to use and Porsche have given me a BMW 3 series 2.0D and I have been told they are unable to supply me with a car (hire cars are not able to go out of country, not that I would be driving it). How do we make Porsche wake up and admit they have an obligation to there customers. You forgot to mention the depreciation ( most significant cost ) and the warranty period reducing whilst not in use Sorry to hear that your trip is ruined

I've sat watching the 991 GT3 thread(s) since they first appeared and its all been very interesting, the speculation, the hype and now the reality. I'm not knocking the car here btw, just giving a layman's opinion. I'd would have loved one of these things and still may at some point in the future, alongside my existing car but not in replacement, this will be heavily influenced by what Porsche find or don¡¦t find. If they find something obvious and minor then great this could be easily rectified, if not simple and its major what does this mean to ordinary people that may wish to own this car. For me there are few things I'm not so sure about, one is lack of involvement as per this video, driver has barely any input to anything (granted it's only a slightly twisty road), but still not much going off in terms of driver involvement other than 30 degrees of steering input off TDC and he even moves the end of his fingers a little I think but can't be sure as can't see them actually move! looks dull :-), I had a PDK Loan from Porsche for a Week, got bored after 2 days and parked it up till I got mine back! http://youtu.be/LIM2UuCgZCE The engine and gearbox are the obvious highlights of this car and the engine that revs to 9,000rpm is an obvious real screamer, watching all the Interweb vids that are available, its sounds brilliant right to the point of the last 500rpm, where some will say its sounds amazing, to me it sounds a little over stretched. Smaller capacity bike engines such as the Kawasaki's, Honda's, BMW etc are all around the 1 litre mark, and rev typically to around 14,000rpm, smaller ones 600cc often to 18,000rpm, Hondas S2000 is only 2,000cc and revs to 9,000rpm, just over half the capacity. This is a large capacity engine based on the now standard 991 Carrera S Block with tweaks and some fancy innards and Porsche are pushing 3,800cc to 9,000rpm, that's an awful lot of mass to be moving around, I think it works out around 150 revolutions per second. A 991 Turbo is just around the 112 revolutions per second, i.e. a huge difference, I'd think the 991 Turbo motor will be capable of much high mileage and less likely to go bang. There's an old saying that "The Light that burns twice as bright only burns half as long", even with modern tech and materials nothing is entirely bomb proof, knowing how corporates work Porsche are obviously seriously worried, this is going to cost a bit to fix no doubt, I'm also sure they know a lot more than they are letting on and damage to brand and reputation at least in the short term on this premium product significant. I also can't see how since the short production run began that there will be any significant or any change in parts that this engine is built with, therefore you have to assume they are all at risk and Porsche are stopping everyone driving them, Porsche have admitted to significant crank case damage indicating something let go, so basically all engines "could" be toast and a bomb waiting to go off at some point, whether its sooner or later, or maybe you will get a good one, never drive it that hard and get away with it. So what are the options (there are surely many more:- 1) Redesign and replace engine or failing parts in existing owner engines meaning splitting the engine probably to replace Crank, con-rods, pistons, or all of them, maybe end the case, why knows? Who wants a new car with a rebuilt engine, how do you know it will fix it, Porsche have spent thousands of hours testing the old one and it still goes bang, so how long before a long term resolution is found for a rebuilt engine with new long term untested parts? 2) Remap the engine to a lower top end RPM, maybe swap cams etc to improve lost HP and Torque. 3) Put in the "other" engine that's had years of development but costs twice as much to produce but apart from the recent hose failure issues is generally robust. (Unlikely due to cost but it would probably instil some confidence back in the engine and many enthusiasts would be fairly pleased I¡¦m sure. Remember they put the new engine in to reduce overall production costs so it could be built on the same line as the standard 991 Models. Motorsport has helped develop the other engine through years of incremental development across many Porsche racing teams and in the thousands on GT cars, there is no history at all with the new engine. This might actually be the best course of action really and would restore a lot of faith in the car. Ideally they would put the 4.0L in to get it near to 500BHP What will this do for desirability and future values? Well for some it appear to have soured the whole experience and I'm sure is downright depressing and annoying considering how it's been handled by Porsche. As it stands would I want one of these right now, well no not really, as I don't need or want the hassle, it's not like it's a minor electrical gremlin. Would I want one in the future, mmmm probably not, especially if it's done a few miles and certainly not one out of warranty! I'd always have that doubt about how its been driven, at least if it's been over revved it's reasonably easy to have checked and you can walk away, but these won't over rev and could be on the verge of going bang anytime unless the fix is proven to be bullet proof or they replace the engine. Is this going to become one of those cars that is essentially brilliant whilst it lasts and doesn't blow up, but will eventually become unsaleable in the future because no one wants to take the risk? Would you? The word tainted comes to mind. It seems to me that this could turn out to be one monumental disaster, both in terms of quality of engine, PR and damage to the GT3 brand at least for this first Generation car, maybe the .2 will be fixed. I would worry about future value of these cars after 3 or 4 years though. Do feel for you guys btw! :-(

Not a good start for the 991 GT3 Early failures aside, the big question for me is with the lack of motorsport provenance, can longevity be realistically expected on such a stressed drivetrain? The previous GT3s were all de-tuned race cars and logically very durable. Empirically this is proving to be the case. My supposition is that it was a VAG directive to drop the GT1 bloodline and the manual gearbox. The R&D budget was evidently pretty tight too. I point the finger at VAG for this and actually feel sorry for Porsche and AP. Edited by GT Glee on Wednesday 26th February 00:02

GT Glee said: Not a good start for the 991 GT3 Early failures aside, the big question for me is with respect to longevity; given the lack of motorsport provenance (a de-tuned race car is logically very durable). My supposition is that it was a VAG directive to drop the GT1 bloodline and the manual gearbox. The R&D budget was evidently pretty tight too! Many of us are thinking along these lines, but I am not sure its fair to say this yet. Lets see what they find. They need to be very open and honest about the cause, there can be no bull this time. Their reputation is on the line here. Yes, they should be looking after the owners etc, but I think it is more important to come clean about the truth of the issue and fix it properly. And if that means new engines, so be it. Sometimes s t happens, these are complex cars, they just need to knuckle down and sort it.

mollytherocker said: GT Glee said: Not a good start for the 991 GT3 Early failures aside, the big question for me is with respect to longevity; given the lack of motorsport provenance (a de-tuned race car is logically very durable). My supposition is that it was a VAG directive to drop the GT1 bloodline and the manual gearbox. The R&D budget was evidently pretty tight too! Many of us are thinking along these lines, but I am not sure its fair to say this yet. Lets see what they find. They need to be very open and honest about the cause, there can be no bull this time. Their reputation is on the line here. Yes, they should be looking after the owners etc, but I think it is more important to come clean about the truth of the issue and fix it properly. And if that means new engines, so be it. Sometimes s t happens, these are complex cars, they just need to knuckle down and sort it. +1

RSVP911 said: You forgot to mention the depreciation ( most significant cost ) and the warranty period reducing whilst not in use Sorry to hear that your trip is ruined It's going to be hard to play the depreciation card when everyone has been raving about £20k premiums for a used one and how the GT3 was underpriced by Porsche.

DT398 said: It's going to be hard to play the depreciation card when everyone has been raving about £20k premiums for a used one and how the GT3 was underpriced by Porsche. Not sure I agree with that - bottom line is every car will have a depreciation curve and every month they loose value - the GT3 will be no different , just maybe less than , say a TTs but , like death and taxes , it will be worth less - simples

RSVP911 said: Not sure I agree with that - bottom line is every car will have a depreciation curve and every month they loose value - the GT3 will be no different , just maybe less than , say a TTs but , like death and taxes , it will be worth less - simples In terms of maths if I buy a car for 100k today and identical ones are selling for 120 in two months' time the depreciation curve is -ve 10k per month. I'd want the insurance to give me 120k or a new identical car.

RSVP911 said: Not sure I agree with that - bottom line is every car will have a depreciation curve and every month they loose value - the GT3 will be no different , just maybe less than , say a TTs but , like death and taxes , it will be worth less - simples So you buy a new GT3 from Porsche for, say, £105k and its market value today is, say £120k and won't be back to £105k for let's say 12 months. You really expect some "compensation" from Porsche for the depreciation from £120k to £105k for the period they are fixing the engine issue? Good luck with that. Where's your loss for which compensation would be due? I'd agree that if the car needs replacing, then that should not be at your cost in any way but it's not going to come to that. The insurance point is well made as you would struggle to replace one with most policies if you wrote one off now (unless it was agreed value or new for old or similar)

supermono said: RSVP911 said: Not sure I agree with that - bottom line is every car will have a depreciation curve and every month they loose value - the GT3 will be no different , just maybe less than , say a TTs but , like death and taxes , it will be worth less - simples In terms of maths if I buy a car for 100k today and identical ones are selling for 120 in two months' time the depreciation curve is -ve 10k per month. I'd want the insurance to give me 120k or a new identical car. The basic principle of insurance is in the event of a claim to put you in the same position as you were beforehand, no better no worse, in theory...... So in the 'perfect world' and in the event of a total loss claim, if your £100k car is now selling for £120k, then you could expect a settlement of £120k being the replacement cost or market value..... In practice however, depending on the exact terms of the policy, it is likely to be capped at the actual invoice cost of the car I.e £100k..... Maybe consideration should be given to cover with specialist insurers who would take the above premium into account.....although somehow I don t think we will quite be in 250 GTO territory for some time yet....

supermono said: In terms of maths if I buy a car for 100k today and identical ones are selling for 120 in two months' time the depreciation curve is -ve 10k per month. I'd want the insurance to give me 120k or a new identical car. supermono said: In terms of maths if I buy a car for 100k today and identical ones are selling for 120 in two months' time the depreciation curve is -ve 10k per month. I'd want the insurance to give me 120k or a new identical car. Firstly good luck with that . Can't argue with the fact the dep curve may be inverted initially (well it was - all bets now off - speculators must be very edgy post fire noise ) but this only applies if selling v soon post purchase - if you hold for a reasonable time , I think my initial point stands Either way , all I want in respect of this is a car I can drive - novel idea I know

We now seem to be mixing up compo for loss of the car for a short period and what you would get from your insurer for a total loss. Anyone's chances of cash compensation from porsche for depreciation while their GT3s are off the road are slim to none (heavily biased towards none) IMHO. As for insurance, go to a specialist broker and get an agreed value policy for £120k (or whatever you believe the value of the car to be) while your cars are worth that. Lots of those policies about and the cover is reflected in the premium. Keep them up to date with the market value and happy days. Simple.

Porsche should offer owners something that does not them much but adds value for the owner - a set of winter tyres at huge discount/extra couple of years warranty.

Mermaid said: Porsche should offer owners something that does not them much but adds value for the owner - a set of winter tyres at huge discount/extra couple of years warranty. The warranty would be a good idea in light of the problem. But it's unlikely to happen, because Porsche is already doing customers a favour by allowing them to buy the car in the first place.

Slippydiff said: supermono said: RSVP911 said: Not sure I agree with that - bottom line is every car will have a depreciation curve and every month they loose value - the GT3 will be no different , just maybe less than , say a TTs but , like death and taxes , it will be worth less - simples In terms of maths if I buy a car for 100k today and identical ones are selling for 120 in two months' time the depreciation curve is -ve 10k per month. I'd want the insurance to give me 120k or a new identical car. And if I were your insurer, I'd be politely pointing you in the direction of Porsche AG for a replacement car. There's no reason why your insurers should shell out, and mine along with everyone else's premiums go up because Porsche can't develop a product thoroughly or properly. What's very clear is that Porsche have lost their way from an engineering perspective. The whole M96 3.4/3.6 engine debacle showed the start of a worrying trend. But let us not forget most 993 RS's didn't produce the claimed 300 horsepower due to poor/incorrect cam timing, this primarily due to a cost cutting exercise that saw Porsche replacing the perfectly engineered vernier cam drives from the 964, with a far cheaper to produce domed washer design (that could and did allow the timing to slip). Just as with the very early 996 M96 engine failures, complete engines were replaced under warranty, no questions asked. In the case of the 993 RS, one individual was lent the 993 RS press demonstrator for several weeks whilst a replacement engine was sourced from Germany. Neither should we forget the multiple issues that afflicted the 964 early in its life. Premature failures of dual mass flywheels, leaking head and cylinder base gaskets, these due to a "clever" design that decreed gaskets weren't needed between the crankcase, cylinder barrel and cylinder head ...... let's not forget either the PCCBs that weren't (and some would say, still aren't) up to the job, 997 bore scoring, centrelock wheels that didn't. The list is a long one. But a bit like VW in the 80's and 90's, if you are perceived to be producing a quality and reliable product (remember all those ads telling us "nothing in life was as reliable as a Golf" ?) the public will buy into it. Yet a look at the Mk3 VW Golf showed it to be one of the worst and most unreliable cars they'd ever built (allegedly due to all the top engineers being pulled off the Mk3 project at the behest of the then MD, and placed on the new Polo development) Once the public's perception of a company and specifically the quality of it's products changes (remember Mercedes went down this path) you're sailing into very choppy waters indeed. Porsche seem to have been navigating such choppy waters for some years now. Whether the change of demographic has enabled them to retain their perceived quality across the globe, I'd not know. But I'm amazed they appeared smelling of roses after the whole 996/997 engine IMS, liner D chunking debacle. Porsche have previous, and lots of it. The difference is the world-wide web has made information sharing easier and far far quicker, but furthermore customers have become far more savvy as to their rights. Some would say we have our friends across the pond to blame for that culture, and probably rightly so. But having read some of the posts on this thread and the other thread started on the PH homepage (not to mention the 391 pages of drivel on that other thread), it's clear Porsche's target demographic has changed massively, and if I may be so bold as to say so, not for the better. A larger bunch of whining/must have the latest toy/can't have it, will spit my dummy out, bunch of individuals, has yet to be experienced on PH ...... As for the comments about the 991 GT3 engine possibly being overstressed at the revs it's being asked to perform at. It shouldn't be. Ferrari have managed to make their larger capacity 458 engine produce 562 hp @ 9000 peak rpm. it' Whilst it's a V8 and thus it's internal components may be a smidgeon lighter (someone do the maths for me please) the weight of the internal components of a 3.8 flat six V's those of a 4.5 litre V8 shouldn't be massively different. As I understand it the Ferrari engine doesn't use anything particularly trick in the way of materials for its crank or con rods either. If there is an intrinsic weakness with the 991 GT3 engine, my guess is complete new engines will be supplied (unless of course Porsche AG is more arrogant than we first thought and decrees they MUST be rebuilt rather than replaced) in which case one can only imagine the backlash. Cue much whining, teeth gnashing etc etc. This latest debacle starts to leave Porsche looking a tad foolish and calls into question something they were once highly esteemed for, that being they're engineering prowess. It would appear that's slowly been eroded since the link up with the Japanese (when they were brought in to help develop the 993 in order to reduce its build costs). Clearly what works rather well for the Japanese, doesn't for Porsche's customers. But furthermore, it's become all too clear that rather than Porsche's engineers decreeing what is required to make a car good and reliable, now the VW bean counters well and truly hold sway, and the results of their cost cutting mentality is now coming home to roost, and deservedly so. I suspect that for many on here, Porsche products began to lose their appeal some years ago, the brand has become just too "corporate". The addition of such "gems" as the Cayenne and the Panamera to the range, only served to strengthen the growing feeling that they've abandoned what was their core "enthusiast" demographic and traded it for badge jockey's that neither care or understand what the brand used to stand for. What's more worrying is that VW don't seem particularly bothered about the company's heritage or how they're now perceived in the marketplace either. As long as the profits are high and continue to keep rolling in, they're arrogance seems to know no bounds. There's only one way to put an end this nonsense. Vote with your feet. The key words here are "cost cutting". And cutting costs in the wrong area can result in an inferior product. It's not easy to vote with your feet either, as the good things that Porsche does in it's products are rarely found together in other manufacturers products, even when spending a lot more money.

DT398 said: So you buy a new GT3 from Porsche for, say, £105k and its market value today is, say £120k and won't be back to £105k for let's say 12 months. You really expect some "compensation" from Porsche for the depreciation from £120k to £105k for the period they are fixing the engine issue? Porsche is responsible for undermining the resale of these cars for the time being. A refund is one thing but loss of market value and saleability during this time is something else. I don't know the answer but I'm just putting it out there. My insurance policy is with Porsche. As well as disclosing the purchase price I agreed with them that the car should be insured at market value which was at a premium to cost price.

I don't think it should be all gloom and doom just yet. As anyone in product development knows there are Early Life Failures after production introduction - it's inevitable and most car manufacturers have had negative experience / press for their cars as a result at one time or another. early 458's caught fire, MY08/9 GTR's popped their tranny circlips when drag racing, you've already mentioned prior 911 trauma. All of which (well at least the first two) was ultimately and quite quickly sorted or dispelled as myth for 99% of the population. These cars, now into their MY14 year are as near as dammit "bullet proof" now. This is even more inevitable when you introduce significant new model ie major changes and why many of us wouldn't entertain the .1 of any brand new fresh model. You enjoy the newness/cache/exclusivity, but this comes with the chance of ELF recalls and problems. To avoid this to a great extent I've an MY10 GTR and 987.2 CaymanR ... both very well sorted after initial trauma with early models - although someone will find an example of horror to try and dispute it. Those now decrying the engine based on tech difficulty/change/stress are naturally using the problems to underpin their sage views, but it's a bit early in the investigation to harbour doom imo. Although I do understand the R&D and proof from a race series has probably already got past a large amount of Early Life Failure from the stressed environment they come from. Clearly Stress testing is something that helps ELF avoidance. Anyway, we shall all see where this goes and I feel sorry for those being jerked having bought a fantastic new car - unacceptable Customer service really bites. If anyone feels strongly enough then as one said vote with our feet..the bean counters etc are only interested in overall results and not specific hiccups - which ultimately will be good I'm sure since this car has all the right ingredients and early test results for greatness. I hope they get it sorted soon and I look forward to buying a .2 in the future :-)

Slippydiff said: And if I were your insurer, I'd be politely pointing you in the direction of Porsche AG for a replacement car. There's no reason why your insurers should shell out, and mine along with everyone else's premiums go up because Porsche can't develop a product thoroughly or properly. What's very clear is that Porsche have lost their way from an engineering perspective. The whole M96 3.4/3.6 engine debacle showed the start of a worrying trend. But let us not forget most 993 RS's didn't produce the claimed 300 horsepower due to poor/incorrect cam timing, this primarily due to a cost cutting exercise that saw Porsche replacing the perfectly engineered vernier cam drives from the 964, with a far cheaper to produce domed washer design (that could and did allow the timing to slip). Just as with the very early 996 M96 engine failures, complete engines were replaced under warranty, no questions asked. In the case of the 993 RS, one individual was lent the 993 RS press demonstrator for several weeks whilst a replacement engine was sourced from Germany. Neither should we forget the multiple issues that afflicted the 964 early in its life. Premature failures of dual mass flywheels, leaking head and cylinder base gaskets, these due to a "clever" design that decreed gaskets weren't needed between the crankcase, cylinder barrel and cylinder head ...... let's not forget either the PCCBs that weren't (and some would say, still aren't) up to the job, 997 bore scoring, centrelock wheels that didn't. The list is a long one. But a bit like VW in the 80's and 90's, if you are perceived to be producing a quality and reliable product (remember all those ads telling us "nothing in life was as reliable as a Golf" ?) the public will buy into it. Yet a look at the Mk3 VW Golf showed it to be one of the worst and most unreliable cars they'd ever built (allegedly due to all the top engineers being pulled off the Mk3 project at the behest of the then MD, and placed on the new Polo development) Once the public's perception of a company and specifically the quality of it's products changes (remember Mercedes went down this path) you're sailing into very choppy waters indeed. Porsche seem to have been navigating such choppy waters for some years now. Whether the change of demographic has enabled them to retain their perceived quality across the globe, I'd not know. But I'm amazed they appeared smelling of roses after the whole 996/997 engine IMS, liner D chunking debacle. Porsche have previous, and lots of it. The difference is the world-wide web has made information sharing easier and far far quicker, but furthermore customers have become far more savvy as to their rights. Some would say we have our friends across the pond to blame for that culture, and probably rightly so. But having read some of the posts on this thread and the other thread started on the PH homepage (not to mention the 391 pages of drivel on that other thread), it's clear Porsche's target demographic has changed massively, and if I may be so bold as to say so, not for the better. A larger bunch of whining/must have the latest toy/can't have it, will spit my dummy out, bunch of individuals, has yet to be experienced on PH ...... As for the comments about the 991 GT3 engine possibly being overstressed at the revs it's being asked to perform at. It shouldn't be. Ferrari have managed to make their larger capacity 458 engine produce 562 hp @ 9000 peak rpm. it' Whilst it's a V8 and thus it's internal components may be a smidgeon lighter (someone do the maths for me please) the weight of the internal components of a 3.8 flat six V's those of a 4.5 litre V8 shouldn't be massively different. As I understand it the Ferrari engine doesn't use anything particularly trick in the way of materials for its crank or con rods either. If there is an intrinsic weakness with the 991 GT3 engine, my guess is complete new engines will be supplied (unless of course Porsche AG is more arrogant than we first thought and decrees they MUST be rebuilt rather than replaced) in which case one can only imagine the backlash. Cue much whining, teeth gnashing etc etc. This latest debacle starts to leave Porsche looking a tad foolish and calls into question something they were once highly esteemed for, that being they're engineering prowess. It would appear that's slowly been eroded since the link up with the Japanese (when they were brought in to help develop the 993 in order to reduce its build costs). Clearly what works rather well for the Japanese, doesn't for Porsche's customers. But furthermore, it's become all too clear that rather than Porsche's engineers decreeing what is required to make a car good and reliable, now the VW bean counters well and truly hold sway, and the results of their cost cutting mentality is now coming home to roost, and deservedly so. I suspect that for many on here, Porsche products began to lose their appeal some years ago, the brand has become just too "corporate". The addition of such "gems" as the Cayenne and the Panamera to the range, only served to strengthen the growing feeling that they've abandoned what was their core "enthusiast" demographic and traded it for badge jockey's that neither care or understand what the brand used to stand for. What's more worrying is that VW don't seem particularly bothered about the company's heritage or how they're now perceived in the marketplace either. As long as the profits are high and continue to keep rolling in, they're arrogance seems to know no bounds. There's only one way to put an end this nonsense. Vote with your feet. I suppose the $6M question is where am I taking my feet ?

I'd argue the good things Porsche does aren't even found in Porsche products any more

supermono said: I'd argue the good things Porsche does aren't even found in Porsche products any more Where are they to be found then?

RSVP911 said: I suppose the $6M question is where am I taking my feet ? Very few options judging from the posts so far on the 991 GT3 owners/deposit holders thread.....

Sierra Mike said: Porsche is responsible for undermining the resale of these cars for the time being. A refund is one thing but loss of market value and saleability during this time is something else. I don't know the answer but I'm just putting it out there. My insurance policy is with Porsche. As well as disclosing the purchase price I agreed with them that the car should be insured at market value which was at a premium to cost price. I don't actually think this episode will undermine the value of these cars. Porsche will find the problem and fix it and it will be "as you were". Some people will have them. Lots of people will be waiting for them and some people will sell their slots or their physical cars for a premium that will slowly reduce over time. It's just an intermission in my view. The uncertainty at the moment is how long it will last. Really frustrating for owners or people who have cars waiting to deliver at OPCs though!

Eleven said: supermono said: I'd argue the good things Porsche does aren't even found in Porsche products any more Where are they to be found then? Nowhere

So further to the 9,000 RPM issue, I've put together a small spreadsheet showing piston forces due to Bore, Stroke and RPM based on piston weight etc. its pretty rough and ready really but I wasn't expecting the 991 Motor to be quite so much more than the others from Ferrari. Also Ferrari don't generally cut half the cost of the engine build for each of their cars and build them on a common production line, each engine is hand built. Just for fun! You will notice the 991 Forces are significant higher than a Ferrari at 9K due to smaller lighter pistons..

That's really interesting. I remember reading something similar in Alan Cathcart's motorbike book some time ago. Will look up the figures he presented. Question though why is the inertia less at BDC than TDC? Are you taking the extension force at the crankpin at TDC and some other metric to take account of the compression force at BDC?

Great answer from HotRod Mag only first section, talks about material types too to use for conrods, quite an interesting read for car geeks! One of the most important decisions you'll make when building your next engine is what rods to use. Whether it's a slightly warmed-over stock rebuild or an all-out strip-stormer, any time you increase output, the first thing that's tested is the strength of the connecting rods. Ignoring weight issues, most connecting rod upgrades do not add significantly to power output. What they do is far more important: They allow the ported heads, hotter cam, extra carburetion and other hop-up tactics to complete their mission. Let's take a look at the battle zone tucked away in your crankcase. As a piston reciprocates between top dead center (TDC) and bottom dead center (BDC), the rod it's attached to experiences power loads and inertia loads. Power loads result from the expansion of burning gases during combustion that push down on the head of the piston and cause the crank to turn. Thus, power loads are always compressive in nature. This compressive force is equal to the area of the bore multiplied by the chamber pressure. A cylinder with a bore area of 10 square-inches (3.569-bore diameter) with 800 psi of pressure is subjected to a compressive load of 8,000 pounds. That's 4 tons that the connecting rod must transmit from the piston to the crankpin, and do it hundreds of times per second at racing speeds. Inertia loads are both compressive (crush) and tensile (stretch). To better understand them, let's pull the heads off the engine and forget about the combustion process for a moment. When the rod is pulling the piston down the bore from TDC, the mass of the piston plus any friction caused by ring and skirt drag imparts a tensile load on the rod. Once the piston reaches BDC, the dynamics shift. Suddenly the rod is pushing the mass of the piston as well as the friction load back up the cylinder bore, and a compressive load on the rod results. Then the piston stops and reverses direction to head back down the bore, so the inertia of the piston, once again, tries to pull the rod apart as it changes direction. The size of the load is proportional to the rpm of the engine squared. So if crankshaft speed increases by a factor of three, the inertia load is nine times as great. At 7,000 rpm, a typical production V-8 with standard-weight (read "heavy") reciprocating parts can generate inertia loads in excess of 2 tons, alternately trying to crash and stretch the poor rods. OK, now we'll reinstall the heads, turn the fuel pump and ignition system back on, and restore valve operation. The principles of inertia loading are the same, but conditions become even more severe now that the plugs are firing. Even more tensile loading on the rod comes from the work required to suck air and fuel through the intake tract and into the combustion chamber during the intake stroke. Once the piston reaches BDC, both valves close and the rod must push the piston back up to TDC on the compression stroke. But near the end of the trip toward TDC, the spark plug fires and the compressed fuel mixture begins to expand with opposing force before the piston reaches TDC. This causes a sudden surge of compressive energy that must be resisted until the orientation of the crankpin makes it mechanically possible for the piston and rod to change direction and be pushed back down to BDC during the power stroke. Remember, the size of the loads is proportional to the rpm of the engine squared. But that's not all. By far, the greatest test of a rod's integrity is experienced near the end of the exhaust stroke when the cam is in its overlap phase. In overlap, both valves are open as the piston pushes the last remnants of spent combustion gas out the exhaust port. The intake valve is held open so that fresh intake charge is available the very instant the piston begins generating suction on the downward intake stroke. What makes the overlap period so hazardous is the fact that there is no opposing force applied to the head of the piston (in the form of compressed gas) to cushion the change in direction. This is the load that stretches the rod, ovals the big end, and yanks hardest on the fasteners. If you don't want your engine to scatter, you've got to make sure the connecting rods are always one step ahead of any performance upgrades. But which ones are right for you? Read on for a complete rundown. Read more: HotRod Mag

supermono said: That's really interesting. I remember reading something similar in Alan Cathcart's motorbike book some time ago. Will look up the figures he presented. Question though why is the inertia less at BDC than TDC? Are you taking the extension force at the crankpin at TDC and some other metric to take account of the compression force at BDC? To answer it more easily:- It is important to understand that the motion of the piston within 90° before and after TDC is not symmetric with the motion 90° before and after BDC. The rotation of the crankshaft when the crankpin is within 90° of TDC moves the piston substantially more than half the stroke value. Conversely, the rotation of the crankshaft when the crankpin is within 90° of BDC moves the piston substantially less than half the stroke value. This asymmetry of motion is important because it is the source of several interesting properties relating to the operation, performance and longevity of a piston engine. Piston Motions with Pictures as well!

FWIW I got a full refund for a new 996C4s (04) which had an electrical fault which after about ten separate attempts could not be repaired. I got a Boxster S through the dealer as a courtesy car but PGB were fairly unsupportive in comparison. What I found out after a lot of pain at the time is when you buy a new car your contract is with the seller which in every case here and mine in 04 is the OPC you have used I guess. This is when a good OPC and a crap one become clear. I am sure some customers will be getting better treatment than others. As much as the maker are responsible the seller is accountable and based on a painful experience if I got into this situation again I would waste little of my time with PGB and simply keep your OPC relationship as good as possible. Eat them out of cakes and drink their coffee machine dry. However, I really feel for the chap above who has a euro track trip and no GT3 to use. That really sucks and deserves a hand written letter to someone high up. If you don't ask....

That's a great read about piston speed etc. When you think you know the basics it's exciting when you learn you had a basic error in your understanding, thanks!

Interesting, s2000 has a longer stroke at 84mm and faster piston speed as a result 82.5 ft/sec though that is second to the Audi R8. Honda piston is forged aluminium at 356.4 g so gives a force of 2,917.04 pounds, the R8 with a higher piston speeed but lighter pistons at 290g only has a force of 2,405.92 pounds. Good to see how far Porsche are pushing it on a road car. (Also possible to use some more expensive materials to get the piston weight down a bit more if needed with kits for the 997 gt3 that are over 50g less so that may be a potential fix if that was the issue). Edited by Crusoe on Thursday 27th February 12:24

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them) It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....

TB993tt said: It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed..... Rightly or wrongly this is what a lot of people will be thinking after this whole GT3 disaster.

TB993tt said: I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them) It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed..... It seems unlikely that Porsche engineers have made such a fundamental mistake. Also, if that was the case, it seems highly surprising that nothing has failed on those cars which now have considerable mileage under their belts and which have been driven hard on various track days etc etching.

sidicks said: TB993tt said: I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them) It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed..... It seems unlikely that Porsche engineers have made such a fundamental mistake. Also, if that was the case, it seems highly surprising that nothing has failed on those cars which now have considerable mileage under their belts and which have been driven hard on various track days etc etching. Especially if you consider the constant hammering the Press cars have had, witness the white 911 GB and the red Ecoty test car (in particular the wonderful 'flaming' closing shots constantly bouncing off the limiter)...... Not suggesting these cars are built to different specs of course, perhaps like the E type....:sctratchchin:...

RSVP911 said: Are we technically within our rights to return the car - I would have thought that they had the right to try to fix first ? What makes you say that ? What you will find is first with your f. agreement you have a standard 14 days cooling off period, under which time you can return goods and get a full refund no questions asked, you will have to pay interest for 14 day period. After that you can return the goods, if you can prove they are not fit for purpose. I have had a conversation with my dealer that sold me the car and under the consumer rights act if Porsche GB do not come up with appropriate compensation to cover interest on loan, insurance and road TAX in full they will make up the difference. Time to play hard ball!

I reckon if you want to give your cars back Porsche will let you! There will be plenty others who will buy them, assuming they fix the engine of course.

Oh for the joys of Spring. Its the 1st March, a fat blue sky is waiting overhead, the sun is shinning & best of all the Nurburgring opens this month. Happiness with big fat Capital H. Of course us GT3 owners with the ‘Fun Button’ pre installed will probably be a lot more Happy than those people that chose the ‘Bored Button’ varient 991 GT3 with auto everything. Just to explain, the Fun Button connects to the Fun Pedal which in turn connects to the Mezger Engine & the static rear wheels. Of course, should any ‘Bored Buttoners' venture out onto the Nordschleife well be there ready with our fire extinguishers & in our best Basil Fawlty voices well be going F-F-F-F-Fire,(whilst not holding the fire extingwisher upside down - Basil style), we’ll don our Fireman’s cap & help extinguish the bored buttoners fire. Owners that are following Porsche customer service advice & not driving their cars can spectate at the Nordschleife here: bit of a walk but worth it. The sun is shinning, I think its time for some Fun Button action, any Bored Buttoners out there, please wear a sandwich board stating such so I can point & laugh as I drive by….

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] https://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/rofl.gif

Very good.

, layo said: Oh for the joys of Spring. Its the 1st March, a fat blue sky is waiting overhead, the sun is shinning & best of all the Nurburgring opens this month. Happiness with big fat Capital H. Of course us GT3 owners with the ‘Fun Button’ pre installed will probably be a lot more Happy than those people that chose the ‘Bored Button’ varient 991 GT3 with auto everything. Just to explain, the Fun Button connects to the Fun Pedal which in turn connects to the Mezger Engine & the static rear wheels. Of course, should any ‘Bored Buttoners' venture out onto the Nordschleife well be there ready with our fire extinguishers & in our best Basil Fawlty voices well be going F-F-F-F-Fire,(whilst not holding the fire extingwisher upside down - Basil style), we’ll don our Fireman’s cap & help extinguish the bored buttoners fire. Owners that are following Porsche customer service advice & not driving their cars can spectate at the Nordschleife here: bit of a walk but worth it. The sun is shinning, I think its time for some Fun Button action, any Bored Buttoners out there, please wear a sandwich board stating such so I can point & laugh as I drive by…. Hilarious. Very well put together!

layo said: Just to explain, the Fun Button connects to the Fun Pedal which in turn connects to the Mezger Engine & the static rear wheels. Very good

Well I pressed my "Fun" button today, taxed it online at 06:09, went for a blast at 11am ish - waited for temp to come up a bit to 7.5 Degrees Cup tyres not good in cold. Great to be back in the driving seat!! with 3 Pedals, a working Mezger and a Stick to stir the gears. Simplez!

goldsbd said: Well I pressed my "Fun" button today, taxed it online at 06:09, went for a blast at 11am ish - waited for temp to come up a bit to 7.5 Degrees Cup tyres not good in cold. Great to be back in the driving seat!! with 3 Pedals, a working Mezger and a Stick to stir the gears. Simplez! Me too, been a long winter, wonderful to have the car back on the road, at 0001 hrs today So, been out, pressed the fun button/pedal and given the old Mezger a serous workout, jeez had forgotten just how good this car is....

Has this debacle had any impact on residual value/premium over list yet? The Top Gear bit can't have helped but will this really have any lasting impact?

Helicopter123 said: Has this debacle had any impact on residual value/premium over list yet? The Top Gear bit can't have helped but will this really have any lasting impact? Its too early to say, we shall see what the fix is. But I doubt much.

That's my take. I guess the danger is the new tech proves unreliable or that they have put a chocolate engine in it. Wouldn't mind sitting on a late 997 GT3 right now.

Helicopter123 said: Has this debacle had any impact on residual value/premium over list yet? The Top Gear bit can't have helped but will this really have any lasting impact? There are a few anxious traders out there who were hoping to turn a few cars for "overs" ...

drmark said: There are a few anxious traders out there who were hoping to turn a few cars for "overs" ... No sympathy for them what so ever I'm afraid

drmark said: There are a few anxious traders out there who were hoping to turn a few cars for "overs" ... No sympathy for them what so ever I'm afraid

Chances are there may now be no second run over the first 140 cars......this could be good for residuals once the issues are sorted......

av185 said: Chances are there may now be no second run over the first 140 cars......this could be good for residuals once the issues are sorted...... Or a 2nd run to recoup some of the losses.

And maybe a 3rd run?