Scored cylinders!

Hi everyone! About two years ago my engine suffered from 2 badly scored cylinders / pistons and was shipped to Germany for a rebuild. Over the past couple of weeks it seems that the problem has returned. High oil consumption, lots of smoking when starting from cold and ticking noises from the right side of the engine. I know lots of people have opted out for a rebuild or a new / used engine, but has anyone continued driving their car without fixing it?! I was wondering what else could get damaged in the process and are there any other risks to the engine if you put the ticking and oil consumption to the side. Any help would greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Recent cold temps have really skyrocketed these reports of scored cylinders. Nine calls last week alone came into the failure hotline all with the same symptoms and most with a misdiagnosis of a "lifter issue". You need to stop driving the car.. No noise is a good noise and continued use will lead to a cracked cylinder and a resultant D chunk failure. If this occurs (and it will if you keep driving it) the results will lead to a core engine thats a complete loss. The noise you are hearing comes from excess piston/ cylinder clearance. When that clearance increases the noise gets louder until the skirt of the piston simply breaks off. At least thats one way you can experience a failure. When the chunk of cylinder illustrated below breaks away the coolant pressure forces the "chunk" into the cylinder where it contacts the piston and wipes out everything. Right now this is what you have, see the rest of the pics here of this 27K mile replacement engine. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3 Mechanical noises are the engine SCREAMING that it has a problem. They will not get better and they will not go away until corrective action is taken. Failure to listen to the engine will find you in a position that much more complicated, expensive, time consuming and you won't like what happens, when it happens. It will happen.

From a positive side. I done 30k km after it started ticking. Countless track days. Yes oil is being burnt and I expect even my 200 cell cats will get plugged eventually. I expect it to burn lots of oil and keep an eye on it. It would tick and smoke on cold start until warmed up. Now if ticks all the time though somedays it burns no oil which surprises me. I don't drive it much now as I bought a 996tt and don't use it as a DD or track it anymore. Plan is to rebuild it before it breaks but if it happens it happens, I'll just get anther engine. Here is the sound of an unhealthy engine starting up cold in cold temps. Once is warms up, it doesn't smoke. Which means the cats are doing it's job. Going on 31k like this. Scares the mechanics when I take it in for an oil change. Also dyno'd same as 2 other 3.6l engine on the same dyno day. 2013 2014

Quotes source post: 11120086

I'd question if your issue is a cylinder and not something else. Generally these things aren't that forgiving. Rebuilding it before its broken is whats wise. I can't stress that enough, because some core parts are near impossible to find. Hell, we can't find any used crankshafts or IMS shafts and we had to have them made. Please don't scatter your core, its a real bitch to deal with if that happens.

One cylinder is scuffed had it borescoped when I had my plugs changed. I've changed cats every two years and its always burnt oil since new. It was so gradual it took too long to notice it, thats until I was bringing 1L then 3 until it was 5L every time I went to the track.

Never ever heard of one of these instances holding up so long. Play the Lottery!

What's the corolaction between scored cyclinders and cold temperatures? And how do we avoid it ?

In Canada the only way to avoid it is not to drive the car at all in winter. Note where the guys are that have these issues and you'll see the same common denominator over and over. The factory did not allow for adequate running clearance in cold temperatures with these engines, especially those that have forged pistons. After being just started the piston expands faster than the cylinder and the clearance becomes too tight, which makes it impossible to gain boundary layer lubrication from the engine oil. To make it worse, the oil is still cold and thick when this occurs as its only seconds after cold start up. Cayenne engines have the same issue and its so bad that a couple of Canadian dealerships send us their engines rather than installing a crate engine that will just do the same thing all over again. One Cayenne owner has had this occur 4 times! We have done much more of our testing in super cold, than in super hot. Next month we'll have a test car start a 20,000 mile loop of N America. I wish he was on the road now, taking advantage of all these awesome opportunities to see single digits and below zero values. Then we'll take it apart and see how it looks. The record on one of our test engines is 5,200 cold start cycles. If you have to drive in the cold try to keep the car stored in a warm environment and when driving down stay parked so long that the engine completely cools down!

Interesting to hear Cayennes!

Quotes source post: 11120976

Because there's a ton of them in cold climates used for primary transportation.. But it does not happen to the Cayenne Turbo, as they have Nikisil cylinders.. Just like it doesn't happen to the 906/997TT as they have the same. This issue is all we have found wrong with the Cayenne.. They are my favorite modern Porsche engine.

Quotes source post: 11120797

In the UK the solution is to fit a lower temperature T-Stat. And sign up with at least one company offering some kind of service/warranty for this condition and other conditions.

How cold is too cold? Doesn't it get really cold in Europe where these cars are engineered? I can see maybe Canada being more cold there than Europe but the US contiguous 49 states? Mike

Quotes source post: 11121382

??? I think he means outside cold ambient temps, I'm assuming below freezing. Very interesting on Jakes Hypothesis. You wouldn't happen to know the magic point where this becomes the biggest risk? Are we talking 32deg F or more extreme.

Yes, I know what Jake means. I was just pointing out there are at least two different opinions on what is going on. Jake's view is that cold temperatures bring about scoring. OTOH, in a region where temperatures are mild and can be cold, the opinion is the problem is brought about by the engine running too hot. Like I've said I think this borescoring is going to be the new IMSB.

Quotes source post: 11121486

So your thought is that increased running temps can bring on the scoring as well?

Hi Jake, What is considered cold in your opinion? Are we talking below freezing....below 45degrees F.....curious?? Thanks, Ray

Interesting information Jake, I guess all regular 996's had forged cylinders ? Well it warmed up to +1 here in Vancouver Canada maybe time for a ride

One option would be to install an oil pan (in the 996 case a sump pan) heater. This wouod keep the engine oil and the engine warm during cold start up. The other option would be a coolant heater (zero start). Both of these are well known and used in the TDI field. My DD has an oil pan hearer and it workes great. In -25C the glowplug light goes out much sooner (glow plug light uses coolant temperature readings) than on my other TDI that doesn't have a heater. It also makes the engine much quieter when cold (diesels are very loud in the cold). The coolant hearers with 1500W capacity can bring the engine temperature up enough that is can show on the gauge in the car. This would be my choice since the 996 has tight bore tolerances.

Quotes source post: 11121555

Increased temps will cause ovaling which will cause scoring. I used mine daily since 2003. Lot of cold starts over the years and in temps from -10c to -25 during winter. I think it was due to mis-firing when the ignition coils failed. Though I can't be sure but after getting them replaced is when I began to noticed it was ticking. There was also a time on the hwy in stop and go traffic I noticed coolant temp was getting high and light came on. It went back down after traffic started moving. There was a tiny very slow coolant leak on the bottom of one of the rads that I think caused that.

Quotes source post: 11122437

Increased temps as in what range and with what facts? This is a pretty blanket statement.

This is a good read. My car has 194k dd in Canadian weather. She seems healthy other than usual consumables, doesn't burn oil

Quotes source post: 11122658

Zookie's 194K is your avg man's 350K equivalent! Trust me.

Quotes source post: 11121691

Its forged pistons, and not all engines have them. The issues exist with all the engines, just worse with the forged engines, especially 3.6 and 3.8 The issues occur within seconds after cold start up, the thermostat has nothing to do with it, because the coolant is not even hot yet. In fact, thats the issue, because the cylinder doesn't expand fast enough to keep from the piston expanding inside of it and reducing clearance. There's a reason why a freezer is required when setting ring end gaps and developing skirt clearances for these engines. We do the majority of all cylinder and piston development in cold environments. These issues have been plaguing the M96 since the 2.5 Boxster and we see them so much more than people know. I once received an engine from Russia that had the worst bore scoring of any I have ever seen, it only had 11K miles on it and was from a C4 that was driven in Russian winters. We see the same from Canada and the NE and mid west USA. I predict that this year we'll see so much more than normal due to the weather this winter and we are already getting the calls. The issue is often thought to be a cylinder problem, when actually the cylinder wear is collateral damage, as the first thing that occurs is the piston damage. BTW- We are talking single digit figures and below for what really impacts these engines and aggravates this issue. Thats why we loved it last month when it was well below zero in Chicago where Cayenne X and its 5.1L Raby engine was started and restarted over and over again in the cold until the starter melted. We were trying to create an issue with the Nickies cylinders but were not successful.

It takes only 60 seconds of continuous cranking to fry a starter and half as long on a diesel.

Quotes source post: 11123842

Nope.. Crank it up, let it run through the critical time and shut it off for a few minutes.. And keep doing that, never allowing the engine to warm up.

Which engines have forged pistons?

Quotes source post: 11123945

The few minutes of cooling down wasn't enough for the starter to cool off too? That's weird.

It's all pretty surprising for a car designed in Germany? Could initial piston/liner surface failure be started by over revving when cold? I wonder if some sort of block heater or under car heater would help. Paul

Quotes source post: 11124845

I thought the same thing, especially the over revving part. Like 4k plus rpm or something right after starting it. The 0-40w is supposed to be good below 0 degrees Fahrenheit.

Quotes source post: 11124373

I'm guessing the bigger pistons bump the compression ratio a tad!

Quotes source post: 11124373

I forgot to add that the engine has 14:1 CR. Thats hell on the starter, especially in cold, dense air. We put it on the edge, thats what aggressive development is all about.

Quotes source post: 11120982

I have a 05 Cayenne Turbo, thinking of replacing it witch a Macan. Are the new Cayenne's coming with Nikisil cylinders? or is it just the Turbos. Wondering what they will put in the Macan. Also you doing 4.2l in the 9a1 engine. Why only upgrade from 3.6l to 3.8 in the m96 engine, couldn't 3.9 or 4.0 be done?

Whatever the accountants decide. Yes We have a 4.0 M96/ M97 and have for years. It is not advertised as its a very expensive proposition to include my R51 cylinder heads that are required to create an efficient combination. Going bigger than 4.0 with an M96/M97 is a losing proposition as the cylinder heads lack port flow capabilities and all the displacement just makes for a more narrow power band. Bigger isn't better.

Hi, Struggling to understand your point that the damage occurs within seconds of start-up where the piston skirt has heated up enough to close the clearance enough to seize the engine? What about an engine with an iron block and alloy pistons where the expansion ratio is widely differential to start with and the pistons will heat up at a much faster rate than the block.

The pistons for an iron block are made of a different material composition that expands at a different rate. A low silicon and high silicon content piston forging, or even a casting varies greatly in expansion. You are comparing apples to oranges. On top of that the factory piston offset only lends it's self to one side of the block, on the other side the offset is working against the arrangement, making the problem even worse. If I were to share the piston to cylinder clearances at the same temperatures, everyone that understands what these numbers mean, would be stunned at what happens below 20-25*F. Upon start up the piston soaks up heat faster than the cylinder and due to it's material composition begins to expand at a faster rate. This removes the clearance completely and starts to lead to these issues. One way we have reduced this is by using a thermal barrier coating on the piston that keeps the piston from absorbing the heat as quickly, thus slowing expansion and reducing the harmful effects. This is not the solution to the problem, though, its just one of the things that we do to eliminate the problem. Altering running clearances is required, but we can't do that until we apply our own cylinder technology that gives us the control thats necessary.

What do you attribute the failures to that we see in the UK where we very rarely see temperatures below zero?

It doesn't take temps that low to create the issue.

Quotes source post: 11134110

How large can you go with the Cayman DFI 3.4l?

Quotes source post: 11137572

We have an experimental 4.4L going together now from a 2014 Cayman S. Until its proven, the 4.2 is the only offering that we have. See the December 2013 issue of Panorama, page 66-71 for details.

Quotes source post: 11136905

I lived in Germany for a while and it snows a ton there-- so spends a lot of time < 32 deg F. If the engines can't tolerate that temp it's because they were poorly designed or because the designers figured owners would leave their Porsches in the garage and drive their "other" cars all winter.

Quotes source post: 11137669

Thanks I will check that out. Might be a better option trading my C4S in for a Cayman. Though I wish the new engines could be used in a 996.

The new engines don't impress me. We've been working with them for 4 years now from a deep internal level. Buying a car to void the warranty on purpose isn't for the faint of heart.

Quotes source post: 11138346

could you kindly elaborate? based on what i've read (forum knowledge only) there has been some 997.2 pdk tranny replacements but never 997.2 engine failure/rebuild.

Quotes source post: 11142191

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/226721_644747388886393_27401515_n.jpg

Quotes source post: 11142247

pardon my ignorance and lack of mechanical knowledge but is that not cylinder scoring? on the DFI 09+ engine?

Quotes source post: 11142501

Yep. This engine is a 2012 and has 4,160 miles on it. Never had its first oil change, never went to the track.

I'm a little more interested now. Were there any telltale signs? Is this your personal car or someone else's?

This is a customer's engine. It came here for a 4.2L elective build. The car had no symptoms at all, but on the dyno it did make 20HP less than it should have. I personally disassembled it and found this. It didn't mater, the bore size went from 97mm to 104mm, so those scratches were machines out with the original cylinders when they were chopped into chips by a CNC mill.

Quotes source post: 11142511

Is this the engine that was missimg the oil pick up tube O ring?

It was missing the O ring... BUT so has every 12 and 13 model we've seen.. The 14 model we just pulled apart last week was missing it as well and even the profile strips that seal the oil pump to the block. After almost a year of searching we found that these O rings were omitted in the 9a1 engines after November of 11. No one knows why and it took months for it to show up as omitted in the Porsche PET system.

Ok, this is getting really crazy interesting. This sounds like it could have been not enough oil getting to those cylinders or something with the omitted oring. Is that possible? at 4000 miles and scoring, that's not good. Either some machanically was wrong(like the oring thing) or the customer(not trying to bash, just saying) wasn't properly warming up the engine before putting the hammer down. Either way, that's a little scary!

Quotes source post: 11144101

So its suppose to not have it, so not the cause of the scrapes?

All engines we worked with earlier, with a manufacture date prior to 11/11 had the O ring. This engine did not have them, and according to directives it wasn't supposed to have it. There was another O ring that was missing in this engine, between the case halves. Whats the difference between the O ring that was omitted and the one that we found missing between the case halves? Well, we didn't mention to the dealer that that one was missing. To date all directives sow that O ring in place. The O ring in the secondary oil system (the omitted one) being missing could create foamy oil which reduces the boundary layer protection that lubricates and protects the cylinders/ pistons. The other 5 cylinders of this engine were worn as well. Here's an example, and note how clean the piston still is... We are not the only ones who have seen this, our partner in Germany has also seen it.

Ok so the scoring was not from the omited oil pick up O ring but from the pistons beng too tight or something else?

It's not conclusive enough to post. All that matters is that it's a 4.2 now with Nikisil cylinders:-)

Quotes source post: 11146374

Only one example, so doesn't seem like a real issue. Nikisil or Nikasil? Anyways I'd like to see the dyno on that after.

I think it matter because when this was first posted it was pretty clearly stated that Porsche Fd up leaving the O ring out and that's why the cylinders got scored. I don't remember reading anything until now that this probably is not the case anymore. Now the same picture is used to discuss piston clearances and cold starts in low temperature but that isn't confirmed either. This is getting very confusing. If you don't know what caused the scoring then just say it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Quotes source post: 11147197

At the time I found the missing O ring EVERY engine we had worked with to date had it and did not have this issue. Then we see this engine with the second lowest mileage of any 9a1 that we'd interfaced with internally (the lowest had 11 miles) and had the most wear. The Porsche PET system showed the O ring in place on all engines at that time, and even in its most recent update at that time still did not show it. Since the O ring COULD lead to diminished effectiveness of the anti- foaming section of the secondary oil system, and since foamy oil can be hell on boundary layer protection from oil, it was plausible that the two were related. It still is today, BUT the difference is now Porsche has released a TSB stating that the O ring and profile strip are both omitted purposely. The latest 9a1 we have delved into is a '14 that had 20 miles on it when we received the engine. It was missing the O ring and profile strip, but it did have the O ring between the case halves. Thus far the 2012 engine that had the scoring is the only engine we've seen that was missing the case half O ring, and thus far no TSB has been issued on that one being omitted and the Pet shows it there as well. Perhaps that O ring was the cause. Maybe not? There's no way for it to be occlusive unless we see this over and over again, which won't happen until the cars are out of warranty. While under warranty if the engine has an issue its generally ripped out and shipped to Germany where the issue is never divulged. The problem with doing things first is there's no lifeline and no one to ask. When we called the dealer to tell them of missing parts inside the engine, the first thing they said was "why did you take it apart". I responded in a smart *** manner "Because you're people didn't make it big enough". They know me and know that if a car comes here under warranty, it won't be under warranty when it leaves.

I understand the reason why the O ring was originally blamed as many of us would have done the same thing but I feel there should be an update to that post stating what you just wrote above. Herefore when someone reads it, thre would have a more accurate picture of what could and couldn't have happened in that case. They way it sits right now, that thread points the finger at the O ring that might not be the reason for those scored cylinders.

Quotes source post: 11150156

At the same time it could be, and the omission could have had negatives that were not known when the O ring was removed. We just got the news a few weeks ago about the O ring and I still have unanswered questions pending about why it was removed. The same for the profile strip sealing the oil pump.

Here is the sound of an unhealthy engine starting up cold in cold temps. Once is warms up, it doesn't smoke. Which means the cats are doing it's job. Going on 31k like this. Scares the mechanics when I take it in for an oil change. Also dyno'd same as 2 other 3.6l engine on the same dyno day.

That one has the rhythm of a wrist pin or rod knock. Hold the engine at 2700 RPM and tell me if the noise is louder or less pronounced above and below that RPM. If the peak is at 2700, it tells me a lot.

I'll try that, didn't notice what revs it was when at peak. Once the revs go up too much you can't hear it, which is why in this recording it I've kept it at lower revs.

unhealthy engine and a dyno...now there is a combo....NOT.smh

Thats a significant sound, its deep, rhythmic and at crank speed, not valve train speed. No noise in an engine is a good noise. A wrist pin can make noise for a long time and no come unglued till it rips the pin boss out of the piston. They will usually throw some misfires since the piston is at BDC and TDC for extended dwell periods. Throw a durametric on it and disable each cylinder's injector one at a time, when the noise dampens, you've found the culprit.

Quotes source post: 11150752

If I remember correctly, doesn't a scored cylinder make that sound also? Would your recommendation to disable each cylinder's injector also work to identify a cylinder that was scored and made that sound? Thanks

wrist pin is a heavy noise. i have heard piston slap due to excessive clearance but never have i heard a scored cylinder make noise.imho

Quotes source post: 11151154

Here is an exerpt from a Hartech article: "CYLINDER SCORING As a result the most recent and most common problem afflicts the pistons and corresponding cylinder scoring. Common signs are increased smoking and oil consumption (especially the rear near side exhaust tailpipe), sometimes � reduced performance (although not always) and a ticking noise resulting from the piston tilting and the top tapping against the cylinder head as it passes over top dead centre." They go on to explain the reason for scoring: "Piston scoring takes place very quickly after a very small rise in oil temperature at the cylinder wall lowers the viscosity so much it cannot support the gap between the piston and the bores and the increase in friction sets off a vicious circle of events that in a few seconds destroys the surface of the piston and cylinder bore.... Visually the result can be seen as scoring in the bore from a camera (or boroscope) placed though the spark plug hole � but always inside the engine the outer face of the piston (that cannot be seen with a camera) will be wrecked."

Quotes source post: 11151121

In my experience if this was a cylinder scoring issue it would have never lived through a dyno, and it would be consuming oil with that heavy of a knock. Could be wrong though. It also doesn't have the rhythm of a failing cylinder, which has a rhythm much different and sounds exactly like a lifter. The noise could also be the crank dancing fore/aft because the end play shims have worn, failed and ended up in the sump. Grab the crank and shove it fore and after (engine off!) to see if it moves freely. True, but you can see the scoring with a borescope introduced into the back side of the cylinder bore and accessed via removal of the sump plate. :-)

Quotes source post: 11150752

When I had it borescoped. #4 was scored. Piston crown touches cylinder head, 5-6 of cylinders where burning oil in excess. Here is a link to the dyno

If the piston is touching the head, you are losing control at TDC. One day your luck will run out.

Quotes source post: 11151864

Which is why I did get a track 996 Turbo to drive before I get it rebuilt. Even though I've tracked this one many hours with this problem. I am now worried about it after hearing and seeing friends have similar failures. The other 2 C4S that dyno'd that day. Zookie's coming up on 200k km on his C4S and the other C4S that dyno'd that day had a rod fail. I am seeing guys I know with Caymans and their engines are failing after a couple years being tracked.

The piston top has been banging away at the head and it hasn't come apart yet? Are you 100% this is actually happening?

Quotes source post: 11152126

When it finally does expire it is going to be spectacular! If that would have come unglued on the dyno, with the rollers behind it even for a second, the results would have been cataclysmic! I'd want to do the post-mortem on those remains!

Quotes source post: 11150689

I tried it today, not really able to detect it when it runs at 2700rpm. Video shows it running twice at 2700. Much louder when near 800 -1300 rpm. Car is is warm garage and hasn't been started in week or two. Oil level is max. Seems quieter then last years video. Same video camera. update Took the car out for a 200 km drive. Sound is back but it is loudest at 1100 rpm and seems to disappear when rpm's go up.

This thread is insane

Its not responding as I'd expected. I am off my game a bit as I have lost my low tone hearing (can't hear my diesel tow truck run at all!) after a procedure this week to solve sinus problems. I am really starting to wonder what the crank end play is.. The crank could be dancing, especially if it quietened up at 2700 RPM. I did have one like this almost fool us, a variocam+ intake lifter came apart and had this same rhythm because of how the system works.It ran fine, no misfires or etc. I'd look for stored misfires and roughness index values, then start poking around with an electronic ear. Even being 2/3 deaf I can still hear it start up with uneven compression on the starter.. That says a lot by it's self concerning chamber filling.

Ok I have a 2008 cayenne turbo with scoring in #5 (#5 is not firing at all now) Only 80k kilometers on it. In Canada it has been unusually cold. I park it in an open parking lot during day, and garage at night. It is hard to start in the cold. (Battery is only 8 months)old). Any ideas? Porsche dealer says new engine needed. I've heard cylinder wall sleeve can be repaired?

Quotes source post: 11167845

The dealer is telling you this, because its the only thing that they can offer cost effectively. What did they tell you for a new engine? With 80K miles the core of your engine is fine and you have many options. The cylinders can become part of a reconstructed engine with many other new and updated components. These will be more resilient to these issues in the future as they feature a different piston, with altered clearances and have been designed to solve this condition. This has historically been a common issue with the S engines and our original developments were for them. This winter has been brutal and has spawned many issues with the TT engines as well. I've seen a huge spike in these reports, and our workload in the past 2 months. Yes, everything that we do can be applied universally to an S engine, or a TT engine since so many things are the same across the two platforms. You do have options. If you'd like, email me at [email removed]

so is the 2008 Cayenne TT Nikisil?

will a scored cylinder have oil on the sparks plugs?

Quotes source post: 11169710

Among other symptoms.. Generally some light oil consumption shows up, followed by ticking that sounds like a bad lifter, then consumption goes up even more and at that point the plugs generally get wet enough for misfires. This is usually after someone does a lifter job that never needed to be done, because the noise wasn't a lifter. It was a cylinder.

thanks

The moral of the story is to exhaustingly diagnose any issue that appears to be a lifter problem, before assuming that it is a lifter problem.

Quotes source post: 11120825

Seems like an engine pre-lubrication system could minimize this problem.

Not really as the issues are not with hydrodynamic components. These issues come from components that receive boundary layer protection from splash oiling. The issue is inadequate clearance for the expansion rates of the pistons and cylinder materials. It can only be solved by manipulating these clearances.

Have you seen GT3 engines with scored cylinders? 996/997? Thanks

I wonder if a block heater or some other type of small heater placed under the engine would help in cold climates?

Quotes source post: 11171122

As stated in another thread this has already been developed. No, that doesn't occur. The new engines are TBD since they lost Nikisil for the first time.

also to add that, GT3/GT2/TT cylinder liners are also a serviceable/replaceable item should damage ever occur

Quotes source post: 11171522

Yep, and are not integral to the block at all. This means a scored cylinder can simply be removed and replaced without splitting the case. Last year I repaired a bad cylinder (too much boost) on a 996TT and left 1/2 the engine together and still dressed with ancillaries. This design was an adoption from the aircooled Mezger engine. The M96/M97/ Cayenne and now the 9a1 are not this way as their cylinders are integral to the block. With those engines a cylinder issue becomes an issue with the entire block.

Quotes source post: 11171404

I ask because I had/have a noise they diagnosed as a "bad lifter". They replaced all the lifters....noise still there. Now they say it is "normal". Your comment above hit close to home.

exactly, the ~2004 and older cases even still have the 964 numbers/same basic case. Also nice to have choice of going with OE nikasil/aluminum sleeves or aftermarket steel for crazy-HP builds.. it's unfortunate the m96/97 engines have so many critical failure points(common or not), it's the only thing scaring me from buying a Boxster/Carrera for daily driving... Didn't know the Cayenne S and Turbo had different cylinder wall treatments, makes me want a C-TT even more Cheers,

Quotes source post: 11171828

2007 GT3

^have you scanned the ECU for over-rev's?

Quotes source post: 11171840

Yes. Zero over revs at any level and no faults noted. 8K miles total.

Quotes source post: 11171828

Yep.. Pack it up and ship it on. This makes over a dozen of these that were misdiagnosed in the past 3 months or so. Technicians need to attend our practical application classes so they can hear these noises foist hand. If a shop made a bad call on this, it should be on them as the cost of making a mistake. I hope they didn't charge you for their lack of knowledge and/ or experience with these engines.

have you compared to other GT3's? Mezger's are a 'noisy' engine, valvetrain/chain noise that was 'hidden' in the air-cooled days becomes more apparent on the water-coolers

Quotes source post: 11171852

Lifters replaced under warranty. If not a scored cylinder, not sure what else it could be. It does have that bad lifter sound. No sound when cold, getting worse as it warms up mainly at idle. Cannot hear after around 1500 rpm. Not alarming at this point, but I hear it (and they did too..).

Quotes source post: 11171855

I have compared it and others do not make the sound. I was told exactly what you said....Mezger's are noisy. I did have a factory rep listen to it and he said "normal". dI am not convinced. If it is normal, why did they replace the lifters? Anyway, after taking it out of winter storage, I am going to have an oil analysis done and a boroscope done just to make me feel better.

Quotes source post: 11171830

They don't they're all plain alusil.

^referring to post #10....

Quotes source post: 11171890

EVO review says the for 2002-2007 Cayenne's Turbos and later S models have a Nikasil coating. Maybe they meant "Turbo S" http://www.evo.co.uk/buying/buyinggu...eckpoints.html

Quotes source post: 11171885

definitely worth doing the analysis and inspection, maybe take a quick sound clip of it when you get it out as well so others can hear it too

The EVO article is BS, Alusil is chosen as an alternative to Nikasil, not in addition to it.

doesn't mention the cylinder walls, unless the part about cylinder head was meant to be cylinder walls...edit: think it must mean the cylinder walls as earlier in the document it seems to indicate the same alloy is used for the head casting... maybe a piston variation is the main durability difference? http://press.porsche.com/archive/pro...ne_release.pdf

S pistons are cast, turbo pistons are forged. The new 9A1 flat 6 engines have are now also made from monolithic alusil castings. No nikasil.

I live in Minnesota, and have been thinking about buying a used Cayenne. I'd like to summarize this thread for those of us who are looking at used Cayennes. My take-away is to avoid pre-2008 V8 Cayennes (Turbo, S, GTS). 2009 and later V8s do not have the scoring potential. V6s of all years do not have this scoring potential. Is this summary correct? If I have made an error, can someone correct me by following the same format of years and engines, so future readers don't have to follow through all the postings, but can simply find the latest iteration of this post? Thanks! -Rich

Quotes source post: 11120825

Hi Jake, realize I am bumping an old thread. I just had my cylinders repaired with LNE nickies. once I am fixed and back on the road, will I be able to now drive the car in the winter or do you still recommend I park it?

Quotes source post: 12466769

Too loaded of a question. We use LN cylinders, but have out own clearances and pistons, so my results will vary. We haven't seen or heard of any LN cylinder issues, at all, even with engines that others built. Your assembler has a ton to do with this in the way the file to fit piston rings are set up on the bench. The guy with the wrench is the biggest variable, and these are not "one size fits all" parts, they require true engine building. Just bolting it together doesn't fly.

okay. assume the installer does things right, would you still recommend I park the car during winter? I am from Ottawa, Canada - we can get to -40 celcius. not often, but it happens enough that I need to ask.

Quotes source post: 12466814

This recommendation must come from the assembler. he is tasked with the build and its his job to understand the dynamics behind the failures, and altered materials, and clearances. Its what he is getting paid for.

alright. I'll discuss with my engine builder when I.......find one. lol

Does the LN Nickies package (JE pistons + new rings) come with pre-gaped rings or you have to file and gap it by yourself?

the instructions provided indicate that you (or builder) would be doing that yourself.

Quotes source post: 12466952

Are the ring gap clearances part of these instructions?

Quotes source post: 12467956

No, the application dictates the most optimum ring gaps. The "instructions" are general information and the builder must use their own judgment at the end of the day. Parts that comprise engines that must truly be "built" do not come with anything preset, filed to fit, or otherwise. This is why the products are sold primarily to professionals. Even then, they sometimes screw it up, because they don't care, or don't think, or haven't properly educated themselves. I TRY to teach these things in my classes, but either someone has it, or they don't. Today, out of a 40 person class, 2-3 people are worth a damn and I'd hire them. The rest just don't get it, have the wrong mindset, or can't think for themselves. I was thinking the other day, every failure I have had in development in the last decade occurred when I was following some recommendation, instructions, or not using my own damn brain. You learn to believe nothing of what you read, and nothing of what you hear, and only 1/2 of what you see.. Operating environment means everything to every clearance within the engine. That doesn't stop at the rings. When building an engine for extreme cold, or heat the temperature that everything is set up at, makes a difference. That goes for valve to guide clearances, rings, cylinder to piston running clearance, rod and main bearing to crankshaft clearance, and 85 more things inside the engine. I have even had to bush oil pump bodies so I could run tighter clearances for extreme heat, and have done the opposite for an engine that would only be operated in Russian winters. There are no rules with this stuff, you have to follow your instincts, and have enough exposure to failure to understand what causes what to occur. It doesn't come easy. I have to tear apart a failed test engine tomorrow. It ran TWO minutes before I knew what I did had not worked. I like it when they fail fast, I get a head start on unF***ing the true problem. There went 4K bucks, in TWO minutes + 110 hours of my life. I love it.

God help the poor owner who buys a Jake Arizona engine car and lives in Minnesota.

Quotes source post: 12468931

Right?

Quotes source post: 12468236

So you're machining custom parts for every engine at different clearances because of somewhat educated guesses about future use and locations?

today it's 32 degrees (celcius) in Ottawa. thats 90 for you Americans. in 6 months well be at -30 celcius. just sayin'.

Anytime someone is concerned with extreme environments, or moving to a different climate, I will choose my happy median clearances. This means that the engine will run well in extremes both ways. This is what the factory tries to do. The benefit of a hand built, fully blueprinted engine is being able to set it up for application specific, or environment specific operation. It doesn't mean that we have to do this, and every owner can request median clearances, or specific clearances for an engine. People don't sell cars after I build the engine. I know of two in the last decade that have been sold. It makes no sense to buy my engine, and then sell the vehicle.

Quotes source post: 12469004

That's good.

Jake, I was informed that the scoring issues are much more common with the 3.6 then the 3.4 ie 2002 and later. Would you consider this to be accurate information and also I was wondering if Jumpers noise in his video was in fact scored cylinder or was it something else..sorry I could not find the post with the resolution. Thanks

Quotes source post: 12550906

We see scored cylinders in all years and models, all the way to 2012, so far.

Quotes source post: 12550933

Does that include GT3's and turbo's with the different engines?

^^ He mentioned earlier in the thread that with the GT3 and Turbo engines this is not an issue. Not sure about the later GT3s and Turbos...

Its hard to score ANY Nikisil bore, including the 996/997TT and the GT3. The pistons used in these engines do not have an iron/ phosphate wear surface coating, like the M96/ M97 and Cayenne engines use. The failure of this coating is phase 1 of a 4 phase process leading to cylinder failures. BUT the aforementioned cars are seldom operated in extreme cold, so the chances of issues are greatly diminished for that reason alone.

So they are not Mahle with the Grafil coating? Paul

Which engine?

M96

Quotes source post: 11151252

Hey Flat6, great information thank you so much. Questions: - From where should I �grab the crank and shove it fore and after�? - if that�s the cause. Can the shin be easily replaced? For context: I have a 14 Panamera Exec 4S with the 3.0L V6 and 2 turbos. It is making a very loud �lifter metallic noise� that STOPS completely around 2700RPM. Not sure if this engine has Nikasil, but it is a cold climate NY car.

@echang033 - I'm answering for you because Flat6 may not be returning to this board anytime soon. First off; it sounds like you are asking about a completely different engine than the M96 found in the 996 Porsche 911. My answers are regarding the M96 engine that Jake was talking about, so I cannot guarantee you that the components of your 3.0 V6 are even remotely similar. I would doubt they are. 1) You will not be able to grab the crank and move it fore/aft by hand with the engine assembled. Jake was describing a motion with the engine in operation and the forces enacted on the crankshaft were causing it to move on the worn shims. 2) The shims in the M96 are about as deep as deep can get inside of the engine and if I were going in to replace them I'd consider looking at a rebuild while I'm at it. They sit within the cranshaft cradle assembly and the case must absolutely be split in order to reach it. Best of luck to you.