991 Porsche GT3 RS to Offer Manual Transmission?!?! - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Sorry not been on for a bit so don't know if reposted... http://view.internetbrandsauto.com/?j=fe851c70736c...

It won't happen. The VW group are not interested in enthusiasts who tend to keep their cars longer and don't buy into the marketing hype quite so easily. Most new markets have no interest in a manual gear change. They generally buy these cars as they would a Louis Vuitton bag and change cars when the new faster better product replaces it. Far more profitable for the VW group and like any well run business, profit always comes first. Porsche, these days have become more of a status symbol than a company making cars for enthusiasts. Having had three myself, including a GT3, i can't see myself buying another. I have driven a PDK. It's very impressive and on a track it makes sense. On a road, I like the challenge of perfecting gear changes and having to use skill. You don't drive ten tenths on the road, so the tactility of a manual change creates a closer connection to the user and car without the need to drive like a lunatic to enjoy it. Shame but that's the world we live in. Mind you, I would love to be proved wrong!

Nick644 said: It won't happen. The VW group are not interested in enthusiasts who tend to keep their cars longer and don't buy into the marketing hype quite so easily. Most new markets have no interest in a manual gear change. They generally buy these cars as they would a Louis Vuitton bag and change cars when the new faster better product replaces it. Far more profitable for the VW group and like any well run business, profit always comes first. Porsche, these days have become more of a status symbol than a company making cars for enthusiasts. Having had three myself, including a GT3, i can't see myself buying another. I have driven a PDK. It's very impressive and on a track it makes sense. On a road, I like the challenge of perfecting gear changes and having to use skill. You don't drive ten tenths on the road, so the tactility of a manual change creates a closer connection to the user and car without the need to drive like a lunatic to enjoy it. Shame but that's the world we live in. Mind you, I would love to be proved wrong! If there was enough demand for a manual they would offer it. But there probably isn't anymore and there are plenty of true enthusiasts who actually prefer PDK type boxes, at least on contemporary cars. In reality, it makes sense both on and off track, but I do get your point about the "skill/challenge/connection" of a manual gearbox. Although most contemporary manual gearboxes require little effort compared to older classics and are certainly a lesser challenge. I've been heel & toeing for years, to the point were it is totally subconscious anyway. So time to move on to something different that is frankly better in all respects. But I still drive an old-school classic 911 now and then to keep my hand in BTW Porsche became a status symbol a long long time ago. It has absolutely nothing to do with manual gearboxes being phased out.

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere... http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche...

And a fire extinguisher as standard

I would be hugely impressed at Porsche if they offered a manual. The honest truth is that it is not commercially viable anymore. I would love to be proved wrong, but its deader than a dodo.

Indeed, it would be seen as a backwards step and would confuse buyers. Its tech all the way from here mate!

I've always been an advocate that true sports cars should have a manual gearbox and cruisers are ok with an automatic gearbox. I most certainly would not want a manual gearbox in my Bentley. Two weeks ago a good mate popped round with his newly purchased Nissan GTR with a 720bhp litchfield conversion. Now Malcolm has also been an advocate of the manual gearbox. His 996TT Cab being just so. He felt that the paddle shift in the GTR was a complete waste of time and they might as well just run it as a full auto. I had a drive of it and had to agree. On the road (damp at the time) the acceleration was so ferocious that your concentration was solely focused upon potential hazards that thinking about having to change gear was just something you could do without. I suggested that on a circuit the paddles might come into their own as you have a lot less to worry about. I must admit it did make me think about manual gearboxes in a different light. Agreed that swapping cogs in a 231bhp 3.2 Carrera is part of the enjoyment and sense of occasion. But in modern day cars that have the performance of the star ship enterprise I'm not so sure anymore .

anonymous said: [redacted] I don't think it is that simple. With the new GT3 engineered as a PDK car you cannot simply change that to a manual drivetrain. Both racing and street cars are going in the direction of PDK so all the development would be supporting this. To do a limited run of manual cars would completely non-economical and a step back in time. Im a great advocate of manual gearboxes and would not swap my GT3 RS 4.0 for anything else in this world but PDK is called progress an the buyers seem to want it that way. The big problem i have with PDK or paddle shift sports cars in general is that you need to drive at warp speeds to arrive at a level of satisfaction and enjoyment you would otherwise be getting at much lower speeds in manual cars. I love my GT3 RS 4.0 for what it is, fully recognising that any new PDK equipped Porsche will probably be faster in the real world as I cannot shift gears more efficiently than any PDK equipped car regardless of horsepower and/or configuration.

hornbaek said: .... fully recognising that any new PDK equipped Porsche will probably be faster in the real world as I cannot shift gears more efficiently than any PDK equipped car regardless of horsepower and/or configuration. I dont think anybody disputes this. Computers are faster than humans. They just are. What other controls should we then hand over?

anonymous said: [redacted] I have never really understood this argument! Surely in essence a PDK is just a manual gearbox with a remotely actuated gear change. OK OK, I know that Porsche introduce all sorts of safeguards in preventing over revs, and the software taking over etc and the next gear is preselected. BUT surely rather than retrofit a manual gearbox, surely the purist can obtain complete control if Porsche just changed the software, to NOT take over at any time. I run a Radical race car with paddle shifts, and all it has is a pneumatic actuator that moves the gear lever (OK it does prevent downshifts at too high revs) - simples or is that just too easy

anonymous said: [redacted] I agree. Only a manual can offer complete control. One of my biggest problems with the PDK was when approaching a roundabout. You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times. Its distracting and makes the whole process and arduous task. Where as in a manual you can heel and toe directly from 6th to 2nd and you know exactly what gear you are in just by having your hand on the stick. The same goes for overtaking as you cant jump gears. Some may say the kick down function does this for you but I found it doesn't always select the gear you want and 9 time out of 10 you just end up bouncing into the limiter.

I've never been convinced that PDK is that brilliant at changes anyway (except at high revs, where it is brilliant and way better than I would be). At normal speeds, I'm not persuaded that it is smoother than a good manual driver - e.g.changing down a couple of gears in town or slowish country driving, it's not super smooth.

vallance5 said: I agree. Only a manual can offer complete control. One of my biggest problems with the PDK was when approaching a roundabout. You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times. Its distracting and makes the whole process and arduous task. Where as in a manual you can heel and toe directly from 6th to 2nd and you know exactly what gear you are in just by having your hand on the stick. The same goes for overtaking as you cant jump gears. Some may say the kick down function does this for you but I found it doesn't always select the gear you want and 9 time out of 10 you just end up bouncing into the limiter. In the PDK-S you could get from 6th to 2nd quicker than with a manual change...

ORD said: I've never been convinced that PDK is that brilliant at changes anyway (except at high revs, where it is brilliant and way better than I would be). At normal speeds, I'm not persuaded that it is smoother than a good manual driver - e.g.changing down a couple of gears in town or slowish country driving, it's not super smooth. Have to disagree. I run a 991 a with Pdk for a year and 8k miles on all types of roads and the box was perfect. Smooth, smart, quick. Really it's amazing. And no a good driver would not be as smooth. For a start he would not have two clutches and 3 feet to operate them :-)

vallance5 said: You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times. don't you just hold the down shift pedal and the PDK goes to lowest possible gear?

SFO said: don't you just hold the down shift pedal and the PDK goes to lowest possible gear? Still not complete control as you don't know what the lowest possible gear is going to be.

sidicks said: In the PDK-S you could get from 6th to 2nd quicker than with a manual change... Im not denying that it maybe be faster. Im talking about control over what the car is doing and being able to select exactly what gear you want.

vallance5 said: SFO said: don't you just hold the down shift pedal and the PDK goes to lowest possible gear? Still not complete control as you don't know what the lowest possible gear is going to be. Will it not be the right gear for the right road/engine speed nonetheless? Or if it's such a concern, a hold down then a shift up in quick succession?

Popolou said: Will it not be the right gear for the right road/engine speed nonetheless? Or if it's such a concern, a hold down then a shift up in quick succession? No because I might not want to enter a roundabout in the lowest possible gear with the engine screaming at the top of the rev range. Having to then quickly up shift highlights the fact the car has chosen the wrong gear and therefore isn't doing exactly as I want. Seems a bit of a work around for a problem you wouldn't have in a manual car.

vallance5 said: No because I might not want to enter a roundabout in the lowest possible gear with the engine screaming at the top of the rev range. Having to then quickly up shift highlights the fact the car has chosen the wrong gear and therefore isn't doing exactly as I want. Seems a bit of a work around for a problem you wouldn't have in a manual car. I agree but you were talking about jumping down to 2nd from top in your last post. That's how it's best done. I also wouldn't be approaching the R-bout at warp speed. I've found it an oversight when a manufacturer misses out on the 'hold down' function for these rather obvious reasons.

vallance5 said: Im not denying that it maybe be faster. Im talking about control over what the car is doing and being able to select exactly what gear you want. You pull the paddle the appropriate number of times - hardly difficult!

Not quite that easy as the box will shift down itself below min speed for each gear - so you can easily miscount as you are braking hard and don't notice what shifts have been done automatically. You have to keep your eye on the gear read out, which is very annoying. It is much much easier to just feel for the road speed and slot the correct gear in a manual. Multiple change downs before a corner or roundabout is not a sequential box's strong point. I sometimes put the car back in auto because this annoys me.

sidicks said: You pull the paddle the appropriate number of times - hardly difficult! It is when you have to pull it 5 times and not all of those times it shifts as to prevent over revs. Obviously im talking purely from my experiences and no doubt everyone has their own different driving style. For me I didn't enjoy it as I wasn't in full control of what the car was doing.

vallance5 said: It is when you have to pull it 5 times and not all of those times it shifts as to prevent over revs. Why would it not shift? You are suggesting that going from 6th to 2nd in a manual is quick and easy but somehow this would not be possible in a PDK? Is there some special lower rev limit in the PDK?? vallance5 said: Obviously im talking purely from my experiences and no doubt everyone has their own different driving style. For me I didn't enjoy it as I wasn't in full control of what the car was doing. In the PDK-S the car does what you tell it - you are in control of the gears!

ORD said: Not quite that easy as the box will shift down itself below min speed for each gear - so you can easily miscount as you are braking hard and don't notice what shifts have been done automatically. You have to keep your eye on the gear read out, which is very annoying. It is much much easier to just feel for the road speed and slot the correct gear in a manual. Multiple change downs before a corner or roundabout is not a sequential box's strong point. I sometimes put the car back in auto because this annoys me. Counting to 5 has never been a problem for me.

sidicks said: In the PDK-S the car does what you tell it - you are in control of the gears! Im just stating from my own experience and it seems that other people have the same opinion as mine. Im not saying that the PDK can't do these things, but imo a manual provides more control which can not be denied. As you the driver are in control of both the clutch and specific gear selection.

anonymous said: [redacted] I think you miss my point, any "control" that is taken away by the PDK box is purely software driven. My suggestion is that for a GT3 if Porsche changed the software that is all that would be required to give the driver a totally human controlled sequential gearbox. Something that Motorsport has adopted several years ago. The only software intervention my race car has is to prevent a downshift from buzzing the engine. Assuming one has braked hard enough to bring the revs down the paddle shift is the fastest and most stable way to change gear (both hands on wheel)

sidicks said: ORD said: Not quite that easy as the box will shift down itself below min speed for each gear - so you can easily miscount as you are braking hard and don't notice what shifts have been done automatically. You have to keep your eye on the gear read out, which is very annoying. It is much much easier to just feel for the road speed and slot the correct gear in a manual. Multiple change downs before a corner or roundabout is not a sequential box's strong point. I sometimes put the car back in auto because this annoys me. Counting to 5 has never been a problem for me. Reading seems to be. See the first para above for why that doesn't work.

ORD said: Reading seems to be. See the first para above for why that doesn't work. I really think you are wasting your time. I used to get quite heated about this, but most people just do not get it. Thats why Porsche have almost given up the manual, nobody wants it anymore. People want to press buttons and have a computer sort the correct throttle position out. Even Pistonheaders. Its deader than a dodo.

ORD said: Reading seems to be. See the first para above for why that doesn't work. The PDK-S box will not shift down unless you tell it to. You can drop down the gears in exactly the same way as with a manual (but quicker).

I drive a PDK and appreciate all its qualities. But it has big downsides, too. People seem to get very entrenched about it. It's obviously a bad thing that we no longer have a choice in some cars.

mollytherocker said: I really think you are wasting your time. I used to get quite heated about this, but most people just do not get it. Thats why Porsche have almost given up the manual, nobody wants it anymore. People want to press buttons and have a computer sort the correct throttle position out. Even Pistonheaders. Its deader than a dodo. This. I am coming to this conclusion as well, that there is no point in trying to explain your reasoning why you prefer a manual. Such a shame that a large part of driving skill is slowly being phased out. I wonder how long it will be until driving lessons/tests are done in automatic cars and the enjoyment and challenges or learning to drive are also numbed. I remember the enjoyable challenge of practicing hill starts on ever steeper gradients. I suppose we can look at America as a vision of the future.

anonymous said: [redacted] Not the same thing at all. With PDK you can still manually select gears and therefore be in complete control of the car. I agree driving in fully auto mode is dull, but that's not what I'm talking about. But using it as a race style manual is actually great fun. No need to take your hands off the wheel, faster shifting etc. On a fast, twisty B-road PDK in manual mode is excellent, as it is on track of course. Auto steering is another thing entirely. That's taking away actual control of the car, not merely the method of control as with PDK (in manual mode). As for auto steering being better in all objective respects, I really don't think so at all, but that's another argument entirely.

ORD said: I drive a PDK and appreciate all its qualities. But it has big downsides, too. People seem to get very entrenched about it. Can't say I've noticed any downsides with PDK over manual.

anonymous said: [redacted] Totally agree. 10 years fom now manual boxes will be the latest greatest thing and everyone will be wondering what they were missing all those years.

anonymous said: [redacted] No need to patronise, I know exactly how it all works. I guess I just don't feel for the loss of clutch control in the way you obviously do. Don't get me wrong, I do like driving old school cars with manual "everything" but I also like cars with modern technology and don't see it all quite as negatively as some do. When I'm honing along my favourite B-road, I still feel fully in control of the car in either case, which is really what matters. Do you think Vettel feels like he's lost control of his car just because it has a paddle shift? While F1 drivers often complain about other driver aids reducing the skill level, I've never heard a single complaint about semi-auto sequential gearboxes. To be honest, an H pattern mechanical gearshift in a state-of-the-art high performance car now just seems like a deliberate piece of retro-engineering for old times sake. Why tie your hands behind your back when certain things can be done better without necessarily diluting the overall driving experience? So you've lost control of your clutch and you don't have to w k through gear changes any more. Is it really that big a deal? Personally I find it quite liberating in that it gives you more options on the road e.g. you might pull an extra gear on a short straight just before braking or shift between a quick left-right combo where previously it would have been dangerous to take your hand off the wheel. On track, Becketts is a great example of where a seamless sequential shift really makes a positive difference. IMHO nobody is going to look back in 20 years time and wish they still had a fully manual gearbox any more than you don't wish you could be adjusting your fuel/air mixture manually today.

Dancing on the pedals, balancing a car, whilst having to use both arms to steer and change gear well is not easy at speed and thus the great challenge afforded by it and so the personal reward. It takes great concentration and a fair amount of dexterity. You need a great economy of movement and accuracy. And as controversial as it might be, there aren't that many drivers that can do it well. And the amount that can will inevitably reduce until its a lost art. Pointing and squirting a modern car just by flicking your wrists and fingers is just not the same, it feels like 'guiding' a car to me. I am not saying it cant be fun, but after a while, I just get a bit bored. And frustrated. Maybe its just a generational thing?

anonymous said: [redacted] Ok but all the features you are suggesting are negatives, why would you want a missed gear change or a slipped clutch. Why when entering a high speed corner would you want to take one wheel off the steering wheel? As I see it the criticism of PDK is that the ECU is programmed to change gear if you exceed certain parameters, what I am suggesting is if Porsche where to remove some of these safeguards you would be left with a paddleshift sequential gearbox! which in the 21st century is regarded as de riguer by all F1 teams and removes some of those criticisms.

'Generational'? Hope not, I'm in my thirties, do not want PDK (appreciate it, what it can do, but prefer the more complex interaction and opportunity for learning that a manual facilitates). I'm hoping they do offer a manual in the RS because as pointed out in another thread my ' upgrade path' to a new model 911 has been blocked. In the HR Owen classified for a GTS they even include this '6 Speed Manual Transmission for those that Prefer a Manual Gear Change'. Reminds me of the gentlemen's magazine 'Derrière - for lovers of the taboo'. Interesting article in Forbes yesterday (can't find it now) imploring the need for all drivers (USA) to learn in a manual car to prevent complacency in the next generation of drivers, as many currently see a car as something to be guided whilst tweeting, texting, talking.

Some interesting points moose. I am the opposite and find it much easier on a track, mainly because you are generally braking more heavily and so its far easier to pivot your foot across as you have a very stable footing. Where it gets really interesting is where you want to start releasing the brakes slightly or adjust the pressure for some trail braking. I think that this whole area of car control, you either get, or you are completely oblivious to. The irony is, that PDK might actually deliver this 'light bulb moment' that I got all of those years ago from a manual. With it doing most of these things for you, on a track, the driver might experience this weight shift, realise what the car is doing and go 'oh right, I see what you are doing!', and then want to find out how to it himself! Oh and I love the music digital/analogue anaolgy, its spot on. Even more so with musical instruments, and especially guitars. Ever notice how even lots of young bands use 60 year old Fenders and Gibsons?

uktrailmonster said: No need to patronise, I know exactly how it all works. I guess I just don't feel for the loss of clutch control in the way you obviously do. Don't get me wrong, I do like driving old school cars with manual "everything" but I also like cars with modern technology and don't see it all quite as negatively as some do. When I'm honing along my favourite B-road, I still feel fully in control of the car in either case, which is really what matters. Do you think Vettel feels like he's lost control of his car just because it has a paddle shift? While F1 drivers often complain about other driver aids reducing the skill level, I've never heard a single complaint about semi-auto sequential gearboxes. To be honest, an H pattern mechanical gearshift in a state-of-the-art high performance car now just seems like a deliberate piece of retro-engineering for old times sake. Why tie your hands behind your back when certain things can be done better without necessarily diluting the overall driving experience? So you've lost control of your clutch and you don't have to w k through gear changes any more. Is it really that big a deal? Personally I find it quite liberating in that it gives you more options on the road e.g. you might pull an extra gear on a short straight just before braking or shift between a quick left-right combo where previously it would have been dangerous to take your hand off the wheel. On track, Becketts is a great example of where a seamless sequential shift really makes a positive difference. IMHO nobody is going to look back in 20 years time and wish they still had a fully manual gearbox any more than you don't wish you could be adjusting your fuel/air mixture manually today. I think you are missing the point here as you talk of Vettel and being on a track. No one is denying that PDK and paddles isn't the faster and better option for all out speed and lap times. However on a road car I want full control as I am not trying to improve my drive home time by a tenth of a second.

mollytherocker said: I think that this whole area of car control, you either get, or you are completely oblivious to. I think most people on a specialist car forum like this do fully get the joys of a traditional 3 pedal setup, it's just that some people get other more contemporary concepts too - in this case electronically controlled sequential gearboxes, which are, like it or not, the future. The moose sounds like somebody who has just lost their cherry on a manual gearbox and simply cannot see beyond it.

anonymous said: [redacted] You obviously feel that any analogy with F1 gearboxes is totally irrelevant (but can't be bothered to enlighten as to why?) and yet you put forward an unbelievably weak analogy with fantasy "automated steering". Just for the record, I do like a manual gearbox and, like 99.9% of members of this forum, have many years experience of using them. Do you really think anyone over the age of 21 and considers motoring important enough to regularly post on a car forum would not be appreciative of a manual gearbox? But they are practically dead (at least in the traditional mechanical 3-pedal H-pattern format), so why not just get over it and embrace the future. It's not bad, honestly! Plus like me, you can always buy a classic car to play with when the mood takes.

anonymous said: [redacted] Go and buy a TVR - Simples

anonymous said: [redacted] Need to find some better roads. Or don't you think steering, brakes and throttle make much difference to how well you drive on the road? Nobody is going to argue that a manual gearshift isn't going to add some extra involvement/workload for the driver, but in my experience modern manuals are very user friendly anyway. When I drive my old SC, I'm a lot more conscious of the gear shift because it's much more of a challenge to get right every time. You have to slow things down, be precise and really work on the heel and toeing. Sometimes I find this adds to the fun and sometimes it's just plain frustrating, depending on my mood. In a 996 manual however, the gearshift is a doodle and you hardly need to think about it at all. Heel and Toeing it is fun for sure, but hardly a challenge at all. So when I moved to a 997 I specifically chose PDK for something different. I've always liked sequential boxes on race cars and always thought they would work well on the road. Why wouldn't they? Anyhow, I'm loving the 997 PDK - used in manual mode of course. As far as I'm concerned auto is just for traffic/cruising. If I bought a GT3, I would choose PDK no question at all, which is lucky for me I guess!

anonymous said: [redacted] And what does this mean exactly then? Nothing as far as I can tell and yes I will be massively surprised if in the next few decades there is a car on the market that is able to hoon me along my favourite B-road while I sit with my arms folded. Will that be before or after a robot football team wins the WC? Automated steering only works in a controlled environment, which public roads are certainly not. Computers are great at numbers and rubbish at cognitive processes. The latter is what humans are extremely good at and why even an average human driver will always be better at driving along a B-road. Automated steering may well work on motorways, but I certainly wouldn't trust it with my own life. I digress....

anonymous said: [redacted] You don't beleive F1 tech filters down??

anonymous said: [redacted] "mass management". Jeez, you talk some complete s te sometimes! But anyway, it's all personal preference. A traditional manual clearly floats your boat (perhaps bordering on obsession?) and I prefer PDK in a modern Porsche. You should really get yourself an old 911 with a 915 gearbox if you want the ultimate in "gearshift bonding". They are a genuine challenge to master, nothing like as simple as shifting in a modern manual. Also, what are your thoughts on synchromesh? Does that not take away some of your precious involvement too? How a car "flows" down the road is still very much up to the driver, whether manual or PDK. The latter makes it slightly easier for sure, but also gives you more options. Both can be fun and involving, but in different ways. People with your blinkered view will never be able to move forward. Would you really expect Porsche or any other high end manufacturer to offer a clutched, mechanical manual box in 10 years time? It just isn't going to happen. I'm actually surprised it's taken so long to get to this point.

anonymous said: [redacted] b ks, unless soon = hundred+ years or more. AI is nowhere near that kind of level today. But dream on if you like, perhaps we can dig up this thread again in a decade and see if your "facts" are correct.

anonymous said: [redacted] This is the part that tells me that you are not a professional engineer of any sort. It would be far from trivial (virtually impossible given current technology) to engineer an autonomous car to drive faster than a skilled human driver on an uncontrolled B-road. There are simply too many variables, unknowns and cognitive skills required. Don't underestimate the human brain in this respect, it's still way better than any computer in existence.

graemel said: I've always been an advocate that true sports cars should have a manual gearbox and cruisers are ok with an automatic gearbox. I most certainly would not want a manual gearbox in my Bentley. Two weeks ago a good mate popped round with his newly purchased Nissan GTR with a 720bhp litchfield conversion. Now Malcolm has also been an advocate of the manual gearbox. His 996TT Cab being just so. He felt that the paddle shift in the GTR was a complete waste of time and they might as well just run it as a full auto. I had a drive of it and had to agree. On the road (damp at the time) the acceleration was so ferocious that your concentration was solely focused upon potential hazards that thinking about having to change gear was just something you could do without. I suggested that on a circuit the paddles might come into their own as you have a lot less to worry about. I must admit it did make me think about manual gearboxes in a different light. Agreed that swapping cogs in a 231bhp 3.2 Carrera is part of the enjoyment and sense of occasion. But in modern day cars that have the performance of the star ship enterprise I'm not so sure anymore . I had a tuned GTR for 15 months and 15000 miles and didn't ever use it as a full auto. For a start it changed gear ridiculously early in auto but mainly because the GTR's shift is a tactile exciting and direct thing unlike any VAG product I've tried with DSG or the 2 PDK equipped Porsches I've tried.They are switch like in their operation, seamless and totally smooth and as a result rather boring. The paddle shift in my Scuderia was a single clutch system (The final evolution) and also tactile and fantastic fun to use too, the full bore upshifts are a complete hoot, whereas the 458s Double clutch system whilst better than some is far less engaging.

anonymous said: [redacted] Seems you disagree with everything that doesn't fit your opinion. So are you really going to stick with mechanical manual gearboxes for the rest of your life? Now that is going to be some limitation as time passes.

anonymous said: [redacted] You really don't know whether I'm wrong or not and you simply stating that I'm wrong means nothing. The fact is that the above vehicle does not exist and in my opinion as an experienced automotive engineer the technology is just not up to it. Do you think it's possible for a computer controlled F1 car to lap a track faster than a skilled human driver?

anonymous said: [redacted] Okay, the feeling is very much mutual. Time to move on.

Not a B-road but have you guys seen this: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536...

noneedtolift said: Not a B-road but have you guys seen this: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536... Yes, it's a great example of a "dumb" computer - fun all the same. It can only follow a pre-programmed path and would have no clue how to drive itself on a random piece of road. Even if you put a few strategic potholes on the racing line it would be straight off.

anonymous said: [redacted] You are too easily impressed.

uktrailmonster said: The latter makes it slightly easier for sure, but also gives you more options. What are these options?

gaxor said: Ok but all the features you are suggesting are negatives, why would you want a missed gear change or a slipped clutch. Why when entering a high speed corner would you want to take one wheel off the steering wheel? As I see it the criticism of PDK is that the ECU is programmed to change gear if you exceed certain parameters, what I am suggesting is if Porsche where to remove some of these safeguards you would be left with a paddleshift sequential gearbox! which in the 21st century is regarded as de riguer by all F1 teams and removes some of those criticisms . Not so. The PDK 'box is a road car creation designed to mimic that of a 'racing car', whilst being more refined and ultimately, idiot proof (argument above, notwithstanding). Ergo it is heavier than an equivalent sequential 'box. A proper race 'box is designed for nothing other than providing the fastest possible reliable shifts at all costs. So what, you say? Well, 99% of car buyers will see this as only a good thing; a cake and eat it solution, For those of us who love driving however, PDK represents the first advancement in technology in a generation to have actually removed some of the driving experience, rather than assist it. Faster yes, but less involving with it. It's the four-wheeled equivalent of a partial lobotomy.