Mis-fire Problem

Mis-fire problem [/b] I would be grateful if anyone one would comment and/or give me any advice regarding the problem below. Apologies if it appears somewhat verbose, but I felt that if I missed anything out, the full picture would not be understood. I have a 2003 996 C4S and current mileage is 117,907 (114,071 of those done by me as it's a business car). The car's been serviced at the relevant mileage intervals. No running problems have been encountered until the last 10 days. On the first frosty morning of this autumn (November 1st) I started the car and immediately noticed unevenness in the engine performance on tick over. My immediate thought that this was something caused by the air temperature. The car vibrated as if there was an imbalance in the number of cylinders firing and the "Check" warning light came on as well as the "Drive to Workshop" message. On listening to the exhaust note there was a distinct "chugging" and intermittent "pop" from the nearside exhaust. The offside exhaust sounded normal. When the car was driven a short distance however, the performance did not seem to be impacted but the "lumpiness" and "chugging" persisted on tick over. Upon underside engine inspection, a faulty coil pack was suspected. Subsequent diagnosis at an OPC indicated a coil pack problem. The condition of one coil pack was particularly poor and others were showing the signs of splitting, so all six were changed on November 3rd. It was noted at the time the work was done, that the nearside exhaust showed more emission deposits than the offside one i.e. it was blacker All seemed well until the same symptoms, or be they not quite as severe as when they first appeared, recurred the day after the coil packs were changed. Again the performance under normal driving did not appear to be impacted. After some miles being covered the check warning light went out. This resulted in a second visit to another OPC on November 8th. The diagnosis this time indicated a problem on cylinder number 6. Consequently a different coil pack and spark plug for the cylinder were tried but the diagnosis persisted. The suggestion was that it could possibly be a broken valve spring but this I believe does not fit in with the problem being an intermittent one and only being noticeable on tick over. Whilst driving home, around 120 miles, the warning light and message did not appear but I did notice on a couple of occasions when I braked for a junction the "lumpiness" recurred but then cleared upon acceleration. The charge from the alternator/battery connection has now been tested as part of the problem diagnosis and has been found to be below the power reading expected. It is thought that this could be having an effect on the Engine Management System and hence causing an engine malfunction e.g. causing a cylinder/cylinders to run too rich. The other odd thing now is that the offside exhaust outlet is now blacker than the nearside one. Also when I put my hands close to the exhausts I get the impression that the offside one is running hotter than the nearside one. Photos are attached. I'd be interested to find out if anyone has had similar experiences and would appreciate any replies that you are able to post. Regards John C

Richard, Black80XSA, Thanks for the updates. Richard, since the original warranty expired, I've put my car in the hands of Dave Griffiths Racing in Shrewsbury and had brilliant service and keen pricing. I didn't opt for the extended warranty as it only covers up to 125,000 miles so I understand as as you can see from the current mileage that would have come round far too quickly. I got the coil packs changed at Dave's. I'll be taking the car back there tomorrow/Tuesday. He suggests testing the alternator on the bench and then getting it re-built if a fault is found. The car's sounding really rough this morning from the offside exhaust so I'm tempted to get it transported back in on my breakdown cover. Thanks again for your inputs. I'll complete the post when we've got a fix. Best regards John

John I tried to send you an email earlier today, but got rejection messages from AOL. Maybe you could check your email address in your profile. I see that you are near Shrewsbury, so my offer wouldn't have been of use though. Have you had any glitches with the alarm system? The alarm seems to be very sensitive to low voltage, and might indicate a battery or alternator fault.

Hi Richard, Sorry, I cancelled my AOL subscription so I'll change the e-mail address in my profile. Rgds John

Don't rule out a broken valve spring, I had similar intermitent problems with the CEL coming on a couple of times and then going off. Nothing particular could be found to be wrong and then suddenly one day out of the blue the engine sounded like a bag of spanners, died and wouldn't restart. I suspected the dreaded total engine failure but it turned out to be a broken valve on one cylinder. Fortunately because I hadn't carried on trying to drive it there was no other damage done. Hartech replaceed all the springs and it was as good as new - that was at ~85,000 miles. Good luck with it.

Hi OGiii, Did you get the mis-fire as well as the CEL? Car has been recovered to DGR this morning. Rgds John

Richard, No problems with the alarm system have been experienced so far. Do you want to send me the e-mail again, I'd be interested to see your suggestion anyway? Rgds John

I did, basically it was just a momentary misfire, almost like the judder you would get from running over some rough road - if that makes sense - then the light would come on but the engine would be running fine again. I think this thread shows you that it could be one of a number of things, hopefully it won't be too serious and will be back on the road asap.

Latest update from DGR. The alternator was taken off yesterday, tested and all is OK. The CAM covers have been off today. The valve springs are all OK, the cylinder bores are also OK (leak test done & passed). I forgot to add that the coolant level had dropped quite a bit since it was topped up about 8 days ago. Asked them to check for evidence of cracks or gasket failure. Could it be a corrupt ECU? Would it be worth sending an e-mail of the problem to a Porsche GB expert? If so who? Rgds John

OGiii, Thanks for the update. I'll keep the thread up to date. On the positive side, it's given me a chance to have some fun in my wife's TT. Quite a different experience in a front-engined FWD, especially in the wet. Rgds John

Sump has been inspected today and a piece of "white" metal about a quarter of an inch long was found. DGR didn't recognise it's source but said it looked like metal that would form a shell or casing hence his term "white metal". The engine has never sounded like anything had broken or was not performing correctly, just the mis-fire. Any ideas what the piece of metal might be from? I've asked if I can have a photo to post on the thread to give us some further clues. I also tried to speak to a Technician at Porsche GB today but the Porsche Customer Assistance Advisor said I'd have to route information through an OPC as the Porsche Technicians are not customer-facing. Looks like this one's going to run for while. Rgds John

Worst case scenario might be an intermediate shaft bearing failure - but if the engine was still running you might have caught it before it is beyond repair. But why it would cause a misfire I'm not sure. Why don't you get them to remove the oil filter and check if there is any debris inside. If so, you would be best to get them to strip the engine.

Thanks Richard, I'll mention that to them. DGR wanted to avoid dropping the engine out and stripping down if they could but we may have no alternative. Have you heard of an ECU becoming corrupted? I thought that might account for the mis-fire moving from one cylinder bank/exhaust to the other, Rgds John

John I have never heard of it - but that's not to say it can't happen. I'd be more worried about finding bearing material in the sump.

Hi Richard, DGR had thought about the intermediate shaft bearing as well but couldn't see that causing the mis-fire. They have drained the oil through a cloth and cut open the oil filter but found no further metal debris. Rgds John

Interesting. I've been looking at a nearly identical car with an near identical problem. '52 plate C4S. Slightly less milage. Original intermittent loss of power / feels like it's down to 3/4 cylinders / engine sounds wrong / drive to workshop light coming on. Snap on analyser showed misfire on cyl 6. Coil packs 6 & 5 were swapped and the fault code moved to 5. All 6 coil packs were replaced. Problem went away. Following day, car drove out of workshop, 20 feet later all problems reappeared. Intermittent missing at idle. Fault coded cleared. Yesterday had a PST2 readout done - misfire on cyl6. Alarm fault code. Engine sluggish to turn over. The first suggestions were tensioner or solenoid. However, now wondering if it's a failing battery possibly causing the problem. Certainly it's cheaper to substitute the battery first to find out before embarking on major mechanical work. I'll keep you informed.

Rick, Thanks for the reply. Certainly sounds similar. Did the problem move from one bank of cylinders to the other as in the case of mine? What about "rotten egg " smell from exhaust? DGR did suspect an alternator/battery problem but both have checked out OK. Good luck with yours. Rgds John

Rick, Regarding alternator/battery, one of the guys at DGR said that the company that tested my alternator as OK, said he had experiences where an alternator had worked fine at cold and then when the engine had warmed up the alternator had started to break down and under perform. They have done a leak test on my battery and assure me all is fine. Rgds John

Metal fragment photos As mentioned earlier in the thread, there was a metal fragment found in the sump. If anyone can give any further suggestions as to what this might be I'd be grateful. There will be another 2 photos after this. Regards John

Metal fragment photo 2

Metal fragment photo 3

It is difficult to make it out from the photo. If Dave is correct that it is bearing material then it's a worry. Shell bearings are steel backed, coated with a bronze-based bearing material with a lead-based surface. Usually the steel is bright on the outside, and the coating is dull on the bearing surface, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_metal . I assume that the fragment is largely steel. Unless you can see something out of the ordinary through the sump opening, then I can't see any alternative to stripping it down to find out where it has come from. Personally, I wouldn't want to risk putting it back together as it is and firing it up. That's probably the cheapest option, but you have to bear in mind that Dave is likely to find one or two other items that might need attention after 100,000+ miles. Piston rings, valve guides, perhaps. Maybe you should look on the exercise as a rejuvenation program if you intend to keep the car for a year or two longer. It would also add something to the saleability when you do decide to part with it. Just my 2p-worth.

Thanks Richard, I appreciate your further comments. It's probably a good job that the fragment was found in the course of the investigations. I anticipated the the engine lasting for more than 118,000 before needing a major overhaul though, bearing in mind that it's never been abused perfomance-wise, the vast majority of the mileage is motorway cruising and it's serviced every 3-4 months or so, or was I being over-optimistic/trusting in the technology? Regards John

There doesn't seem to be much information about the longevity of these engines (apart from the failures, which are rare but too well documented). There was a chap on this forum who had 140,000 on the clock without a scrap of trouble. The old air-cooled engines usually need a top-end rebuild at 100,000, but they use a different cylinder bore material. Trouble is that there aren't too many 996's with 100,000+ miles on the clock to make a comparison. Normally, you would just keep going until it starts to burn oil, but most 996's seem to use less oil as they get older! I agree that you should expect to get more than 118,000 before a major overhaul, but I'm talking more about a minor overhaul really. If you HAVE to strip the engine, it makes sense to spend a bit more and make sure it is tip-top when it goes back together.

Hi Richard, Couldn't agree more. Whilst the engine's out it would be worth while taking the extra effort to ensure you maximise the opportunity for greater longevity. Less costly than a major "let go" for sure. Rgds John

Hi JC, Dont waste time thinking of a corrupted ECU this is just "cant find the fault so blame it on the ECU syndrome". You mention that the coil packs were changed and one spark plug ,this is not really the way to do things, all plugs must be changed.Sounds a bit silly but check that all of the connectors for the coil packs are really REALLY well connected as these are a real pain to clip together sometimes.Cylinder No 1 connector is also just below the coolant header tank drain pipe which can also cause issues.What where the readings of the compression and Cylinder leak tests as these would be good to look at. Cheers.

Thanks for your thoughts. All leak tests came back with good results. Spoke to OPC earlier this week and they confirmed that they had experienced a mis-fire moving to different cylinders. The cause was swarf getting trapped in the tappets. This however was on a new car and they wouldn't expect the same on mine. However if the intermediate shaft bearing has lost its coating in some places this may have resulted in similar symptoms. Won't know until the ISB is inspected fully. Rgds JC

Have you checked the lambda sensors. I did suggest this some time ago - not sure if this has been done.

Thanks Jonathan, I'm reviewing the situation with DGR tomorrow. Having had diags done at 2 OPCs and the analysis done at DGR, I'm sure the possibilities have been discussed and checked. The timing will be checked and reset tomorrow and then the engine run to see what prevails. Would a Lambda problem show up on the PIWIS test? A hydrocarbon test was done and the one exhaust showed a reading of 42 but the mis-firing one was up at 860. Does this give you any clues? Rgds JC

JC I'm afraid I have no idea what a PWIS test is. I had a simialr problem some years ago and it turned out to be a lambda sensor malfunction. As Eccles would say " only a thought" ( if you're old enough to remember the Goons).

PIWIS is the Porsche Integrated Workshop Information System. It's a diagnostic computer which also has the workshop manuals, wiring diagrams etc. It replaced the PST2 (Porsche System Tester 2) which was purely for diagnostics and control unit programming. A diagnostic check with a PIWIS or PST2 should show up any faulty sensors, so it is surprising that the readings from the two exhausts were so different.

Hi Jonathan, Yes. Old enough to remember the Goons, even as far back as "The Interlude" on TV before ads came along!! As far as the car goes (or more to the point, isn't at the moment!!) one of the challenges is still to figure out why the mis-fire moved from one bank of cylinders to the other. The diag at OPC Swindon didn't point to a Lambda problem, their suggestion was potentaially a broken valve spring but not definite until the engine came out. I'll be in touch with DGR today regarding getting the timing reset and then see where we go from there. Rgds John

Hi Richard, It wasn't until the mis-fire switched to the other side (which was after the PIWIS at OPC Swindon) and became a lot worse, that a hydrocarbon test was done at DGR. Before that, it was just the evidence that the nearside exhaust outlet was blacker than the offside and was "popping". Rgds John

Ignition timing cannot be adjusted on a 996. Sensors can be checked with many types of tester ( Bosch Hammer / Porsche System Tester 9288 etc ) but the readings can only be used as a guide they are not reliable enough to go ahead and order parts for as some people do.More important than anything is the person who is using the tester whatever it is. Car can be run with Lambdas disconnected to see if missfire stops but I have a feeling it wont. Dont worry you will get it sorted some of these things just take time.

Engine's coming out on Wednesday Spoke to DGR this afternoon. Decision made to take engine out on Wednesday for fuller investigation. Likely to be off the road for 14 days (minimum?) I have also been reading the posts on www.renntech.org about various misfire and CEL situations. Seems like it's a fairly common occurrence with many different diagnoses. Rgds John

John, just an update for you about the C4S we were discussing. A new battery went in early last week. Problem seemed cured. The car behaved impeccably for a 150 mile run at the weekend, but on return to London, light came back on and fault is now back! [ ] Next step is to read the codes again when the car comes back next week. Rick.

Rick, Thanks for the update. Looks very similar to my problem i.e. Clearing and then coming back again. Are you still getting a misfire/vibration/lumpy tickover? If yes, is it coming from the same bank of cylinders or has it moved and has it got worse? Good luck. Engine's due to come out of mine today. Rgds John

Quick update . Engine's out. Intermediate Shaft Bearing looks OK. Will update topic with deeper-level investigation results as I get them. Rgds JC

I've come into this late. But just read the entire thread. Surprised that nobody has mentioned cracked (or broken) cylinder liner. My bets are that's exactly what your problem is. This has been discussed at length in the mags....specifically the autofarm writeup. The engine seems to run fine, then it suddenly runs rough. When the engine is opened up a cracked cylinder is the cause and often a piee (roughly the size you show) is cracked off the top of the liner. I would call autofarm and discuss with them. Bear in mind that the cost of investigation and then refurbish may be more pricy that just replaicing the engine with an already refurbished one......with guarantee too. I would defo consider taling to autofarm.

I somehow doubt it Berny, as there isn't any oil in the water, or vice-versa, and a compression test didn't reveal anything unusual. If it was a piece from a cracked liner, how would it get into the sump? Also, the metal piece was identified as bearing material. I guess they will find out more as it comes to pieces.

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and a happy New Year to all. I went to see the engine today which has now been dismantled. We have seen some evidence of damage to the crank block in the form of striations in the metal, as if something has gouged out some of the metal. I'll try and attach some photos dependent upon file size, to show enough detail to illustrate this. We also noted that the composition of the two halves of the crank block were different in profile. That is to say that the block comprises alloy with steel inserts but the profile of the steel inserts differs between the two halves. The two halves are stamped with the same number "1173". Again I will attempt to attach photos to illustrate. Any comments as to whether the difference in the steel insert profiles are normal or not would be appreciated. There are also cracks between the alloy and steel sections appearing in some parts of the block. These should be evident in the photos. Kind regards John

Further photos to follow showing different profiles in the steel inserts. 1st half photo is attached Rgds John

2nd half crank block photo attached Rgds John

Hi Scouser, Thanks for the response and suggestion. With the engine now dismantled, all cylinders have been inspected and are fine. Kind regards John

cam follower

Hi geeteethree, Didn't understand your reply. Can you be more specific please? Rgds John

Hi Richard, When I saw the engine last week I noticed some other gouging/grinding on another part. I went back today and took some shots of this part. We're not sure if this is problem-related damage or manufacturing marks. There are no broken spring valves or anything else that's been spotted as broken in the dismantling process. Photos are attached for comment. The photos were taken from both ends of the other part in question and show marks at each end. I'm also wondering if the one half of the crank block (hope that's the right terminology) that shows the score/gouge marks and the cracks, fits into the other part shown in the latest photos and that somehow the damage in both is related. I also note that one of the latest photos shows the metal cracking/flaking. Best regards John

Second of today's photos

Here's the complete version (taken at dealer's just prior to purchase) Rgds John

John Those markings are really wierd. It doesnt seem like they are fettling marks to remove casting 'flash' as they are far too random and not neatly made, but the surface finish is what you would expect from that process. It isn't the sort of marking you would get with 'loose metal' floating about - you would also have seen evidence of that in the oil/filter. I have no idea how they could have been caused. The cracking looks serious too. I'd give Porsche GB a call and see if they have anyone who would know.

Hi Richard, Thanks for your comments. I'd had similar thoughts myself about the randomness of the marks. Iwould have expected any work done at the factory to be a lot neater. DGR are being very supportive and are progressing the situation for me as they have some very good contacts in Stuttgart. I did approach Porsche GB on 2 separate occasions about the problems but was told that I'd have to escalate the issue through an OPC. As DGR have a good relationship with the OPC I bought the car from, I'm using that route to get a Porsche expert to investigate/inspect the engine. As yet nothing broken has been found in the dismantling process. Best regards John

Hi Richard, I spoke to Customer Service at Porsche GB this afternoon. They said that any inspection that an official from Porsche GB would do, would need to be done at an OPC. As the engine's now fully dismantled at the specialist, this could be a challenge to get everything back to the OPC. Any experience with this sort of situation and is what they say correct/reasonable? Rgds John

John No experience at all, I'm afraid, but I can understand that they want to see it at their workshop. Can't you make an appointment with them and load up the questionable parts of the crankcase in the boot and run them down there? I'm not sure they are going to be able to do much, as there is no warranty claim, but someone might be able to tell you if they have seen anything like it before. Maybe they employ Eastern Europeans in the foundry who aren't too worried about the appearance of their work. [ ]. If someone could give you an insight about what the markings are, if they are normal, and give you an opinion as to whether it's worth putting back together, it would give you some direction as to what to do next. One of the problems is that there aren't many independents that have seen inside one of these engines, especially with the problems that you are having, so it's difficult to get answers. I somehow doubt that the OPC's have either, because all they do is replace them, and ship the faulty ones back to Stuttgart. From a personal point of view, I'd be interested to know what the piston ring and valve guide wear was like. Do DGR have any views on this? Air-cooled 911 engines of that sort of mileage would probably need new rings and guides.

Hi Richard, DGR have commented very positively and I've seen the cylinders, piston rings, valves etc. All look fine. If you look on Dave's web site www.davegriffithsracing.co.uk you'll get a good idea of his background, pedigree and experience which are some of the main reasons why I went to him for normal servicing in the first place, not to mention proximity to my home and competitive pricing. My earlier comments regarding inspection at the OPC were assuming this was normal practice as it seems reasonable to do so and on the basis that they would want to see the complete car. Dave can get the relevant or all engine parts back down to the OPC anyway. To reflect your comments about independents and the number who have got down to the level of diassembly that Dave has, his experience with not only road-going but race car engines as well to this level, must put him in a fairly elite league. As the car came with one year's warranty (even though it was the OPC's demonstrator) rather than the remainder of the Porsche 2 year warranty, if I had taken out the extended warranty as from the end of that 1st year, I would have paid out £2,175 to date. As I'd not had any other instances to call upon any extended warranty until now, I'm adopting an attitude that I've got that money "in the bank" as a starting point anyway. Rgds John

This may sound ridiculous (and I've never heard of it happening before), but is it possible that some tool or something was left in the crankcase at manufacture? It almost looks as if a screwdriver has spun round and gouged the bearing caps! Might also explain your chunk of metal found despite there being no chunks missing from the engine? I am a graduate automotive engineer by the way, so this isn't a completely naive idea

Interesting thought Watty. Maybe even a bolt/nut/washer perhaps? Though I would have thought that something like that would have shown up very early in the engine's operation. It will be interesting to see if the metal fragment (more of a flake than a chunk) found in the sump could be matched up to some part showing the damage. Rgds John

Watty, I acquired a nice Snap On screw driver when I was stripping my 944 Turbo (to turn it into a racecar), the screw driver had been left under the front passenger footwell sound proofing during manufacture!!!!

The markings in the second photo look like someone slipped with an angle grinder - it might be worth asking ~Autofarm about their experience of markings in the crankcase block, they have probably opened up enough engines by now for rebuilds/relinings that they would have a reasonable idea of whether such marks are factory or not, i personally can't see that Porsche would allow that sort of markings on casts, even if they are never to be seen. Another option is Tech9 in Liverpool, who raced 996 and now 997 in the GT series - one of the head techs there (Chris ?) used to work for OPC Liverpool i believe

There are a lot of people familiar with the insides of a GT3 engine, as raced by Tech9, but I doubt if there are many who race an M.96. Agreed, Autofarm are probably the best bet for info, and maybe if Dave Griffiths knows them well they might impart it. They do tend to play their cards close to their chest - rightly, I suppose - as they have a business to protect. I assume that DGR hasn't pulled one apart before, otherwise he might have noticed similar strange markings. There is a 996 register outing to Autofarm on 27th, so we might get to see for ourselves. There is a chap called Marcus London on this forum who races a Boxster. He might know whether the markings are normal.

On a positive note, Porsche GB have confirmed that after the car's fixed I can purchase Extended Warranty for 1 year before 125,000 miles subject to the car being inspected and passing the usual Extended Warranty inspection.. Rgds John

Suspect crank carrier parts delivered to the OPC yesterday. Saw salesman who sold me the car. He's got a Porsche technical background and thought it might be thrust bearing related. Rgds John

Just had the feedback from the OPC. Porsche GB are rejecting any claim and refusing any goodwill and are returning the faulty crank cradle to the OPC on the basis that: - 1. My car is not currently at an OPC (although the OPC did say this was a weak point of argument) 2. The mileage at 118,000 is outside of their goodwill limit of 80,000 and is excessive for the car's age (my response was to ask if in that case then they were saying that the car is not fit for purpose as an everyday business car doing around 35,000 miles per year?) 3. The car may have been on trackdays and hence subjected to abnormal conditions/performance (the nearest the car's been to a track is the car park at Donington Park) 4. The car has no extended warranty (true and accepted) My objectives are to understand why the one half of the crank cradle has the faults that it has anyway and I would at least expect an explanation from Porsche if nothing else. Also I want to pursue the "fit for purpose" angle with as senior Porsche person that I can meet with, as I'm in the area of Porsche GB's HQ on Thursday. I'd also like to get a "yes" or "no" as to whether the problem/s would have been fixed under extended warranty anyway. That way I think all of us can learn and understand the true value of extended warranty. I'm also going to seek some advice from any relevant Consumer Advice organisations and see what useful info I can obtain. Any other suggestions? Regards John

Sadly, I expected this. And I doubt you will get any further with them. Consider my car was 2 weeks out of waranty had a faulty RMS and the gearbox was busted at only 24,000 miles!. I had to fight tooth and nail to get them to come forward with any goodwill for the gearbox. They eventually coughed up 50% of the cost and that was only because I found out where their suppliers GETRAG are and decided to take it to them in Belgium. They didnt want me doing that presumably because they dont want anyone dealing direct with their suppliers. I dunno. As to the RMS well I had to pay for that. Porsche GB are pathetic and very unsympathetic. And the excuse re track days is a load of cow's wad. Even Porsche GB porganise their own track days...so does that mean going on one would void any warranty! Sorry to hear about this mate but please do keep us posted on how you get on.

Hi Berny, Thanks for the reply. I'll be making a few 'phone calls tomorrow and will update the topic accordingly. If it means contacting Stuttgart, I'll try whatever I can. The least they can do is to explain the reason for the faults on the crank cradle to my satisfaction. Rgds John

John. I have a piece of paper here that I wrote something on about 3 years ago maybe during my foes. It's faded badly but here goes. Annette Barbara Wilke is the "worldwide" support manager in Stuttgart. The name you want is [email removed] Could be [email removed] Tel: +49 711 8911 8320 Could be +49 71(1 or 8 or 9) (2 or 8)911 8320 I spoke with her. She is very accomodating but in the end she will take the verdict of Porscge GB no matter what. Her hands are tied on that matter. She told me this herself. I wont be reading the forum for a few days as I go into hospital tommorow for a minor op. But on my return I hope to hear some good news from you. Cheers Berny

Hi Berny, Thanks for the information. I'll try Annette today but I'm not hoping for too much based on your comments. I did ring Trading Standards today and they advised that the Sale of Goods Act 1979 covers a product's suitability for purpose for up to 6 years from original sale. The burden of proof lies with the consumer after the first 6 months have elapsed and there would appear to be a reasonable amount of actions required and extra cost without the guarantee of success. Needless to say I'm very keen now to get the car back on the road and my wife is more so, so that she can have her car back!!! The OPC have offered me a goodwill deal on an Exchange Engine so it looks like that's the way I'll be going. The Porsche GB Customer Services contact said that the problem would have been covered by extended warranty so I guess I've learned my lesson there then!! Good luck with the op. Rgds John

Hi Berny, I spoke to Annette (00 49 711 911 78320) and as suspected she cannot overrule Porsche GB's decision but did take the time to listen and apologise. I also asked about getting an analysis of the cracks and score marks on the crank cradle and an explanation as why the engine suffered the symptoms with misfiring etc . She confirmed that this wasn't normal practice but if I wanted to put my request in writing and agree to pay the costs of any further analysis they would consider it. I can understand Porche's position regarding goodwill outside of warranty as if they are too flexible in this regard it reduces the value of extended warranty and that wouldn't please those owners who have taken out such cover. So the bottom line is I've ordered an exchange engine this afternoon for delivery in 7 days which comes with 2 year's parts warranty and common sense says buy the extended warranty for the other items that are coverable. The way I see the situation is that I probably would have had some preventative work done on the engine at some point anyway given its high mileage so I'm just spending the money or possibly less than that would have cost but paying it early and getting a new engine with warranty. Can't wait to get it back on the road now. Thanks to all who have commented. Best regards John

Andy Goss has been quoted in the past as saying that the cars are built for trackdays and that normal use on trackdays would not invalidate warranties...

Not much consolation to the wallet, but at least you'll have an engine ready for another 120,000 miles (or more, one would hope). It's probably a good selling point too. Strange that they gave you a "goodwill limit" of 80,000 miles, and then offered a goodwill contribution. Persistence pays, and you obviously handled the situation with them well

Hi Richard, The 80,000 mile goodwill limit is Porsche GB's stance. The discount on the replacement engine was offered by the OPC I bought the car from and I don't think they'll be getting any support from Porsche GB, so well done and thanks to them at least. If anyone wants to offer more than the extra £2,000 I'd be charged if I didn't send the engine back to Porsche I'd be open to offers. (Just a thought as the engine's dismantled and anyone buying would be seeing exactly what they were getting.) Having been driving regularly for business since 1977 and estimating an average of 30,000 miles per year, a total of 900,000 miles to date, I've never had any mjaor engine problems or an engine replaced before on any car so it's just a great disappointment that my latest experience didn't match my expectations. If the extended warranty had covered the problems as they told me today it would have (and it would have been interesting to have put it to the test regarding having the last 2 services at an independent specialist) I'd be sitting commenting on what good value warranty is if I'd taken it out!! Rgds John

JColbourne just sent you mail

geeteethree - just replied thanks

hope it helps ???

Thanks, I'll let you know. Rgds John

I made another very useful contact yesterday and took the faulty crank cradle to show him. He noticed that the metal was flaking off one part and I've attached two photos to show this. I'm now more convinced that the metal that was found in the sump was off this particular part. Whether it was the cause of the misfire we'll never know but I think it stands a chance it was based on the OPC's previous experience of swarf affecting a new 997 which resulted in a moving misfire. He also said that the grind marks in my earlier posts would definitely have been done at the factory. It looks like they were trying to grind off some material from the casting process. Also you will see from the other attached photo that another part of the cradle is showing fractures in the surface metal which I'm sure in time would have gotten more severe and flaked off as well. My thoughts are now that it's probably a good thing that the engine was dismantled to discover this. If it the msifire had been identified and cured without engine dismantling, more metal could have broken off and caused a major engine failure whilst I was on the motorway or other fast road. Given the evidence I've accrued, I'll write/e-mail to the Director of Engineering or equivalent in Stuttgart and see what response I can get from the Quality Control angle. Best regards John

Photo no. 2

Photo no. 3 (fracture in surface metal)

John, Sorry to hear you didn't get it sorted without the expense you are stumping up. For reference purposes for the rest of us, do you mind letting us know how much the new engine is costing and what percentage the OPC are paying for ?

Diesel130, £7,326 inc VAT which is a 10% discount. Ancilliaries and labour (taking out engine, dismantling, re-assembling old engine for return to Porsche and fitting new engine) will be extra. The OPC would have charged £4,600 + VAT for the labour element. Hope that's useful. I will still be pursuing a claim under The Sale of Goods Act 1979, but I have to get the car back on the road ASAP. Rgds John

Thanks for the info John - let us know how you get on. Have just put a deposit down on a 2000-W 996, C2 - but will be getting inspection and warrantee on it. Has only done 46,000 miles, so hopefully I've got another 70,000 miles left in it.

Doesn't sound like they are offering a lot. Your PCGB membership would get you a 10% discount at most OPC's.

Hi Richard, I asked for the PCGB discount upfront anyway and was told they didn't normally apply this to new engines but I could have the 10% discount that they offer to the trade. I also sent a lengthy letter and 13 other supporting photos showing the grind marks in close-up and more detail and a further imperfection in the bearing support metal to Customer Assistance (now there's an oxymoron if ever I heard one!!!) in Reading today. I quoted the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and stated that the marks on the crank cradle could only have been done at the point of manufacture or assembly and certainly before the car's normal lifetime began. I also pointed out that only areas that had cracks in showed signs of grinding. Hence the part in question was and still is, not "fit for purpose". The photos I included clearly show ancilliary marks left by a grinding tool on the curved parts of the crank cradle section involved. (Example attached). Their attitiude was that's just your opinion, prove it and we're not changing our decision. They invited me to get an independent inspection done if I wanted to pursue the matter but there would be no guarantee that they would change their decision. They suggested I contact the Institute of Automotive Engineering Assessors www.iaea.uk.com for an independent assessment. The assessor I eventually talked to said that I'd be better off contacting the Institution of Mechanical Engineering as my situation was more metallurgy based than the situations the IAEA advise on. I was also advised by Dave Griffiths that his contact in Stuttgart's experience was that sending any complaint direct to the Engineering or QA departments would probably be unproductive. It makes me think a direct approach to Dr. Wiedeking might be worth trying!!! Who knows?? Rgds John

What? And give away something of that 2.11 BILLION Euros profit last year?

What a victory that would be though!! As the situation is developing it makes me think that the Customer Assistance personnel are bonused on the number of claims they can reject and make the rejections stick. They certainly test the resilience and resourcefulness of us owners sometimes. Rgds John

I spoke to The RAC today. They say they can act in an arbitration capacity (as long as Porsche are willing) and would inspect the faulty part and provide a report for a very reasonable fee. The old engine's almost re-assembled now ready for exchange, so if I go that route I'd have to rely on Porsche or the dealership allowing the inspector access to the engine subject to some disassembly again. I can see Porsche wanting to charge for doing that. Otherwise I can ask if they would do a report based on the numerous photos I've taken during the whole process. Good to know this option exists and it will be interesting to see what Porsche's response will be. I'll call them tomorrow & update. Rgds John

Good news. Hope all goes well with inspection etc. Enjoy. Rgds John

New engine has arrived at the OPC ready for collection by the specialist early next week. The RAC have offered to assist and have said they'd do some initial work with the photos I've sent to them to make sure they have the right level of expertise. Apparently one of their specialists is an ex-Porsche mechanic so I hope that will be an advantage. Porsche have also confirmed verbally that they will recognise and accept The RAC as a trusted report-provider. Whether they will take positive action on any resulting report will remain to be seen but at least it's a couple of steps further forward. Have a good weekend. Rgds John

The RAC have agreed that the cracking and fracturing are abnormal and not down to normal wear & tear. They will provide me with a report (cost around £140) to send to Porsche GB with their conclusions. They suggest the next step would be a metallurgical examination (industrial x-rays etc.) to determine the nature of the cracks and fractures. I think it's worth getting The RAC report anyway as it would assure future owners (if I sell at some point in the future) as to why the engine was changed hence helping residual value. The new engine arrived at the specialist today and the old one's now at the OPC where I bought the car from. I now have to consider the next step in determining whether Porsche GB will accept The RAC report and admit that the crank cradle was sub-standard and make me an offer based on that. If it needs the metallurgical examination before any further progress can be made, that would beg the question who pays for the part to be taken out of the old engine and the x-rays tests etc. The estimate for testing is £500-£600. If all of the next costs are down to me, is it worth taking the risks of these without any guarantee of a positive outcome in my favour? Still it's useful to know of the processes and options open to us owners in the event similar situations occur to other members. Rgds John

If Porsche have confirmed they will accept the RAC report, I don't see what additional benefit there would be in getting the more detailed analysis done. Surey if the RAC confirm it is a manufacturing fault then Porsche should put their hands in their pocket. I would assume it is unreasonable to expect a full replacement costs due to the mileage, but a contribution would sound in order. If Porsche say they want a more detailed inspection than the RAC report, then they are going back on their confirmation of 'accepting hte RAC report'. The only hurdle I see you have is you only have that verbally. Can you get them to put it in writing, or at least an e-mail ?

Hi Diesel, For £140 I'd get a written report. I'm waiting for their sales team to contact me to give them the go ahead and arrange payment terms etc. Porsche haven't said they will accept the report, only that they accept The RAC as a recognised independent report provider. The next step once they've seen a copy is to assess what they will accept and admit to. Rgds John

Metallurgy specialist has confirmed evidence of porosity in the crank cradle. Photo attached showing small holes/indentations in the alloy. Porsche GB informed today. Rgds John

I can't remember if this was mentioned earlier, but ironically, the RAC as I understand administer Porsche warranties! So they have a vested interest in examining your situation. Thanks for taking the time and effort to post this matter.

Hi Andy, Interesting point although my technical contacts at The RAC could not confirm this. Rgds John

Hi JC , make sure that whenever the new engine is being built up that all the fuel injection parts are well inspected because you have just spent an awfull lot of money but have yet to find anything at all related to the missfire. Make sure the engine has new coil packs fitted!!!Good Luck.

Thanks for your reply. I went to see new engine today. Coil packs all there etc. I've got the new coil packs we put on the old engine as well as part of the cure process, so well stocked on that part at least. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early next. Also got advice from OPC re running in suggestions. Rgds John

That looks pretty complete. No alternator or belt by the looks of it. What other parts do you have to take off the old engine? Does it include a flywheel and new clutch, for example?

Hi Richard, I believe I'm correct in saying that you use the original flywheel or replace if necessary and original alternator. New belts will probably go on as well for max mileage without any concerns. Dave and Ben will be pricing up the final spec so I should know in a couple of days or so. As it's Tiptronic I don't think there's any other impact gearbox wise etc. Rgds John

Install completed, anti-freeze re-filled, road tested and........................................offside radiator leaking!!!!!!!!!!![ ] Two new rads on the way (£267 less than Porsche RRP). Hoping to be back on the road at the weekend. Will update re Porsche response to RAC report. Rgds John

Just worth mentioning that unless coolant is added by someone with proper equipment, (the coolant in an OPC is filled under pressure), its possible that some fluid may not reach the gravity defying areas of the engine, thus resulting in air pockets, this can lead to overheating in spots, and this has been attributed to the issues with blown engines, its worth asking if it was filled under pressure, if not it should be.

Hi Dennis, Thanks for the advice. Not sure of the answer but will check. DGR did say they have specific equipment for draining and filling Porsches. Had it checked at one of my local OPC's today anyway. Anyway to quote the old Canned Heat song "I'm on the Road Again" . (Background music to the latest add for "Prison Break" on Sky, for those not old enough to remember original). Got the car back on Saturday but within 200 yards of leaving the specialist "CEL - Drive to Workshop" came on . Went to my most local OPC today and they diagnosed a faulty Oxygen Sensor. So £233 more spent and everything now OK I also rang Porsche GB today and was told that they have put a letter in the post. The guy I spoke to couldn't/wouldn't tell me what it says, just "read it and make your decisions based on what is says" So watch this space and fingers crossed for when the post drops through the letterbox. Money spent: - Engine - £7,325.25 Labor, new hoses, anti-freeze, rear gearbox mounting (old one had broken rubber shock absorber) etc - £3,119.02 (includes taking out old engine and re-building to return to Porsche GB) New radiators - £400.00 Oxygen Sensor and diagnostics - £233.33 RAC Report - £94.00 Grand total - £11,171.60 Rgds John

Gearbox and front-to-rear propshaft failed at 125,300 miles. Luckily I'd taken out extended warranty on 1st May 2007 so all costs were covered. I was very interested to read Miles996's thread this evening where he had also had a cracked crankcase. My claim for a contribution towards my engine costs is still ongoing. Trading Standards are now involved. Rgds John