987.1 oil pressure stability

Guys, I am in the process of changing over my LN deep sump kit that has done its work for the past 5 years. My only concern is various racers have had rod bearing issues from lack of oil pressure on various courses. So a couple of weeks ago I bought a Hartech deep oil pan. I will have Cantrell Motor Sports take off the LN and replace it with this pan including 997 Swirl Pots. I will try to get Cantrell to take a couple of pictures before they put the LN skid plate back on.

Following.

Attached is more info about the total build for a HPDE using a 987.1 S Cayman This is from Slakker Racing Development of the Hartech 987 pan. My current plan is to use my 996 heat exchanger, Hartech sump including swirl pots, LN spin on filter, Motul V-300 Competition 5W 40 then changing to 5W-50. Change oil after 3500 miles. My Hartech sump has not arrived at this point. I need to make an appointment with Cantrell Motor sports to install along with a couple of other mods on my list. Slakker postedm My only adds to the current conversation is that the stock AOS (genuine, not aftermarket) seems to handle an extra quart of oil as well, without issue, but there is very limited data on it or the UAOS doing so at this time. If I was only doing an occasional track day, here the minimum guidelines I would follow after all that we have learned: 1. Center radiator is a must! Oil temps over 250F require a 60W oil to maintain adequate film strength (12 centiStokes for track use). Water wetter helps as well. 2. Run a fresh 50w synthetic oil that is suitable for the track (less than 2000 calcium, no sodium, over 1200 combined moly and phosphate) and change it regularly. A rough guideline is that 1 hour on track equals about 500-750 street miles. Don't go more than 5,000 miles between changes 3. Maintain an oil level between max fill and 1/2 a quart overfilled Temperature vs Oil Viscosity taken from the 2019 Driven Oils catalog: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/********.com-vbulletin/322x246/driven_oil_temp_chart_a121b391f125406d56e2fa033824a6cbeb7139ef.png The Hartech sump has sold out in the last day but there is another batch currently in manufacturing that can be backordered. Main difference between the 996/7 and 986/7 versions is how the oil is channeled. The sumps have been available primarily to Hartech engine customers previously but are now open to the broader market in the US through our relationship. However, like Hartech, we are focused on the engineering, developing, machining and rebuilding of Porsche water cooled engines. We are not a parts sales/marketing firm and never intend to be. While I do want to make our sumps available to those that are interested, especially now that I have seen the data as well, that has nothing to do with my involvement in this thread. I love what @zbomb has started here and that people like @golock911 continue to help propel forward, which is its own little myth busters of marketing hype using real data. And marketing hype is something Ive always detested. This is exactly how I got my sump, I filled out their backorder form and sent it to Slakker Racing Development. Google this site to get the Hartech 987.1 sump form. I cannot explain how important this Hartech sump is to our 987.1 cars. I have been very careful not pushing my car in any long high G corners because of the oil instability problems that repeat every few months on P9. Slakker has done a great job of showing the graphs using his car with slicks to achieve G forces over 1.5, I will post these graphs in a couple of days or you can simply google oil instability in 996. Slakker started the testing around April 12 using the Hartech sump on ********. You really need to know the whole story including the issue that Hartech has been banned from ********. Seems he is a vendor. https://********.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif https://********.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif Quote

Thanks for the writeup. I think moving to a 50W oil will also be a good move. It's a shame that FCP doesn't carry 300V in 5w-50 yet, but once they do it will be a good source to pick up 300V from. Is the centre radiator an oil cooler or just another rad for the coolant? I'm fairly certain that it is just coolant - does this have a big impact on oil temps?

A larger oil heat exchanger will pull more temperature out of the oil into the water circulation system. There is a model of 996 oil heat excnanger that is about 30% larger than the OEM Cayman . It does fit under the intake system. It also heats up the oil faster in the morning. That's what I am using. Motul 300V Competition 15W 50 is $287 for 10 2.2 liters cans on Amazon .

From the ******** thread 996 engine oil instability post 1430. The comparison of an OEM 3.2 Boxster vs a Hartech sump. Please review this data yourself.

I'm going to start looking into this 996 oil heat exchanger system + centre radiator. Dinkyhatchback just did the install of the centre radiator on his 987 and it seemed to go smoothly.

A picture of the lower tray of the Hartech 987.1 floor. I am curious about the oil flow under the windage plate.

Wait, you have your pan in hand already? I thought they weren't going to ship till june. Anxiously awaiting your feedback. I fully intend to purchase one of these for my car. Also, why was Hartech banned from ********? Someone over there got irritated? lol

My guess was LN, other deep sump manufactures and a couple of AOS suppliers that this pan suggested were not needed. ******** may have some vendor payments for entry on their site. Not sure about the background but a lot of negative talk from a couple of individuals about Hartech approach to our market. Sort of caught a few competitors off guard as Hartech in the UK had these pans available only to their engine rebuild customers. No secret sauce to getting the pan. I just sent in the backorder form with my payment. I'm actually in no rush as I need to schedule shop time at Cantrell Motor Sports to install the sump and modify my shifter assembly on the outside of the transmission for my Numeric shifter cables. I usually have a list for them.

I have asked Brandon Clark from Slakker Racing Development to supply more info about the sandwich spacer on the spin on oil filter to have two plugs for the oil pressure and oil temp at the oil filter. I also asked for his best recommendation regarding the cockpit gauges and oil pressure/temp logging that would line up to what Slakker is providing on ********. I do not intend to post these results, only to keep my own record as I will not have head pressure sensors only the filter sensor. This will certainly fit into my 5 year car usage plan. No blowup from oil starvation.

Found through one of the other threads. These parts, correct? 996 swirl pot, 997 down tubes: 996 swirl pots: Porsche Oil Separator Genuine Porsche 99610708054 996 107 080 54 996-107-080-54 996.107.080.54 | Pelican Parts 997 return tubes: Porsche Oil Return Tube Genuine Porsche 99710701600 997 107 016 00 997-107-016-00 997.107.016.00 | Pelican Parts from threads: Cayman S - 997 swirl pots Need Swirl pot part #’S With my first track day coming up in the 06 Cayman S I have been researching oil issues and plan on doing it all…but one step at a time. This time I’m going to install a deep sump, next track day I’ll do an AOS or something. I have a deep sump on order and plan on... www.planet-9.com Motorsports AOS, 997 return tubes, 996 swirl pots, ??? Hiya, I've been reading through threads on the Motorsports AOS and I'm thoroughly confused by a few topics that pop up a lot. Is it worth the effort to modify the 996 AOS for a 987.1 or is it cheaper to pay 2x the price for the part Suncoast sells? My shop charges $80/h and does the setup for... www.planet-9.com

I'm going with swirl pots rather than straight down tube to remove some air bubbles from the heads. Currently with my LN system, the idea was to quickly get the oil out of the heads with straight tubes as soon as possible and let the windage plate remove the air bubbles. Seems the Hartech system moves the oil around inside to get the air bubbles out while using swirl pots as well. To bad that Porsche never put in the time/money onto research to get the correct oil pan on the M 97. They did correct the system on the next model though. Hartech really changed the picture of price and use of the Cayman 987.1S. Once this oil pan gets through the install period and members have data to back up the investment of $1650, then we will start seeing the price of the Cayman / Boxster / 911 (M 97 engine) go up substantially. We still have rod bolts stretch and bore scoring to deal with though, so take it easy warming up the engine and no over revs for any reason. I'm going to install an oil temperature and pressure gauge getting the info from a donut ring between the spin on filter and block along with the Hartach pan going forward.

I had the rod bearing failure just 2 weeks after I bought my 2007 Cayman in 2011. Was driving on the track in Imola in Italy. The car had a custom made deep sump. At that time I opted for the t-t-p solution using 2 additional oil pumps in the heads to bring oil back to the pan. Many years later this concept was presented by LN engineering. The Porsche x51 pan or it's derivatives did not look convincing years ago, so I am curious to see new devs in this area. The data looks good, and I also know Hartech and l do use there cylinder liners for my Cayman twin turbo. I also dealt with LN years ago, bought Carillo rods. It all comes down to how fast you turn in the corners, any tests done with slicks and measuring g-force as well? Enjoy your day Andreas​

Andreas Yes on ******** Stakker has data on his Boxster using square wheel/tire setup with slicks producing about 1.8 G's for some time. Believe he did 18 laps at this rate so the oil temps and heat soak was appearant. This test using an OEM pan and OAS which showed pressure dips compared to 1 qt overfill of the Hartech pan and a OEM AOS produced no dips in oil pressure, You can see this data by scrolling through the ******** thread 996 oil instability thread after April 13th. You can see part of this session on post #6 of this thread. But to get the real essence of the development you should read the whole discussion after Slakker introduced the Hartech pan using his Boxster . He did a comparison vs a session using an OEM sump setup and slicks. You certainly remember all the blowup's that were occurring both to your M-97 engine and a lot of other M-97 motors. I modified my suspension and motor as best I could starting 5 years ago, but pulled back as the LN and other deep sumps simply did not protect from oil pressure drops in some high G corners by continuing owners blowup using these deep sumps. Now, finally I may have the faith in Hartech pan to push the car into that gray oil pressure stability zone now. Not sure about the right head Scavenge pump though. I believe that is why the 1 extra qt of oil is necessary especially using the swirl pots on the oil return. I will send Brandon Clark/Slakker a message reguarding the extra right head oil pump and add that return message to this thread.

The ******** thread is too long to read through.... Just my personal comments: 1. Scavenge pump on the front right cyl head is important. Or use an electric one (easy) or use a second mechanical pierburg (original) with a different housing. The mechanical version is fail proof. The electric pump is cheaper and easier to install. Search for Schnitz turbo oil scavenge pump if you want to buy american (or Marco for Italian). For the pan: I use the original one. Doing 5-10 track days a year, running on Pirelli Trofeo R tyres, Cayman S 2007 with twin turbo , IC and Water injection. since 2011 2 engines blown (one was piston melted due to lean mixture, another was rods bent and 1 broken (too high boost) , but in both occasions the crank shaft was good. So no oiling problems. Good luck and enjoy your Caymans Andreas

I don’t have data on cooling yet but on my 987.1BS, I run a center rad, water with water wetter, dominator 15W50 oil, low temp therm,and have removed the condensers, fans, radiator ducts and fender liners. My oil temp typically peaks around 217F. Figuring out how much impact each of these variables has will be a fun project this summer in the Texas sun.

Slakker-I received the box that included the Hartech pan, and a few other items. I do intend to have swirl pots installed to help reduce oil bubbles. I currently have a Porsche 987.1 MotorSports AOS which is working perfectly. I intend to have Cantrell Motor Sports remove the LN deep sump and replace it with the Hartech oil pan. I also had Cantrell install a 996 oil/water heat exchanger which is about 25% larger than the OEM Cayman S exchanger. the larger heat exchanger not only keeps the oil cooler on hot days but warms up the oil faster in the morings reducing the risk of bore scoring. But without garuges, hard to know exactly what the impact of the larger heat exchenger is. Currently, I have no oil gauges, but do have a LN spin on filter. Is there a commercial spacer that has the oil pressure and temp holes with threads that I can have installed along with the electronic gauges. What brand of gauges would you recommend? I'm waiting for you to complete the LN vs Hartech oil pressure stability test along with a lot of other interested owners. Thanks, Ken

I did use a GlowShift Oil Filter Sandwich Spacer (before FSI put in the IMS Solution). It has 4 ports (1/8" NPT threads) and worked with an oil temp sender. I used a DepoRacing 4 fcn gauge for 2 oil temps, oil pressure and voltage. If you're interested in the spacer (cheap!), DM me.

your posts, @Apex1 , are like engineering lectures. good stuff. I also want to install oil temp / pressure gauges because of the bs oil level sensor which gives me a different value every time I insert the damn key. it is absolutely useless. Even if the oil level shows zero, I don't even worry about that because next time it'll show overfill. stupid POS. especially if there's no puddle under the damn car. Yes, I'm kind of venting here. this kind of stupid crap angers me from an engineering POV. I did want to ask you something though. versus the stock oil pan, the FVD and LN oil pans are better than the OEM. The hartech is an improvement on those? but a lot of the discussions lately have implied that the others are useless. I disagree with that. as far as the photos go, I can't tell the difference between that and the LN oil pan. they both have the x51 baffles. and still no one has done G-Force testing on the other two. how do we know they aren't giving the same improvements? I've still got the FVD in my to do list. and given the huge contributions of LN, I can't help but wonder if their oil pan isn't sufficient as well. I'm skeptical of the hype.

Lets see what additional information Paul Slakker and Brandon Clark have comparing LN and Hartech on various race tracks in the next few weeks. The comparison of the LN product vs Hartech with sensitive data to uncover the positive and negative features of both pans.

So, Paul Slakker and Brandon Clark do have more info on ********. 996 engine Oil stablility thread. Looks at Hartech and LN deep sump. I will leave the data at that for you to take a look at. Since this was not created on P9, I have problems bringing in over. Just go take a look.

searched for about 10 minutes, couldn't find it anywhere. that forum doesn't have a search option either.

I have asked Paul Slakker to also produce his research on Planet 9 as well. I can transfer parts of his latest post, but sooner or later ******** will send me a nasty gram telling me they own that data.

really? That's amazing considering a third party posted it. I would think the third party owns the data. that TOS / EULA must be a doozy. but I don't like that site anyway. I trust my instincts.

So, Paul has just posted another entry reguarding oil fill of the Jason's Boxster. Shows close to Hartech pressures when running 1 Qt over fill with the LN. Seems that Jason's motor produces more air in the oil due to old age of the parts. So the oil temperature is critical component. Paul does not address the oil but I assume both cars are running the same oil and oil wt. Paul seems to want to figure out how to equalize the LN deep sump vs Hartech sump by changing the oil fill level. I would suggest that overfilling the LN deep sump running that windage plate will push oil up the sumps side wall into the suction of the AOS nozzle. I went through 3 OEM AOS running full oil on the LN deep sump. I then called George at LN who told me to run 1/4 fill with the Porsche Motorsports AOS and I should be fine. He was right 3 years ago. No problems using the straight down return 997 tubes as well. So what will happen with the Hartech pan using a LN 3/4 inch spacer for more oil. As long as it fits under my LN skid plate we are good to go. I would have to adjust the oil pickup spacer for the correct pickup on the bottom of the sump as well as the top of the rubber baffle. I really like the ER80 number from the Hartech sump. But with more oil, it could be even higher number using swirl pots to help take out head oil air bubbles. On my next oil change, I will be going back to almost full sump and letting my Porsche Motorsports AOS handle the oil coming up the side of slump from the LN windage plate. Again, please refer to the ******** thread 996 engine oil instability and toggle to the last entry, today. Paul does address that there are a difference between the 996 Hartech pan as the engine is reversed and the 987.1 pan, which is what Paul, Brandon and Jason are testing. Seems that the 996 has slightly different issues and their pan needs additional modification, So find that ******** thread.

well, thanks for sharing the data. I don't see how comparing a 986 to 987 is relevant. I would predict that the differences in the oil pans is negligible due to the error level of the data. which is not provided so we might assume 5 to 10%.

I believe the 986 and the 987 or M96 and the M97 engine use the same oem oil pan. The 996 pan is different in that the engine is reversed in the car. The mid engine setup is what we are talking about here. How well does the oil pan work in high G corners preventing oil starvation as shown above. That is why the ER80 value is important. Maybe with a deeper sump and less aeration of the oil, the oil pressure could be closer to fresh oil. Then we could add the water/oil heat exchanger to reduce the oil temperature and improve the ER even more.

USE Google ******** 996 oil pressure instability. Take a look at Golock911 #1537, you will notice that the LN 2 Qt sump is good if filled to 1/2 qt over filled. if the oil temperature can be kept below 230. So, from my point of view, do I need to spend more money with Cantrell to install the Hartech pan if my larger oil/water heat exchanger works well enough to keep my engine oil temp around 220 and using the LN deep sump's oil pressure around 80 psi producing a ER of 80. On closer inspection of the pressure graphs, the oil pressure variability between Hartech and LN deep sump with 1/2 qt over fill, looks to be slightly less with Hartech. Unless Slakker can separate these two pans using the graphs where there is significant differences using features that cause pressure drops, there really is no reason to change. The last thought is which sump cause the AOS to have oil overload problems. In the past, I did have problems with my Porsche OEM AOS but with the Porsche MotorSports AOS not so far in the past 3 years while running at 3/8 oil fill, but not 1/2 qt over fill. So, I may fill to 7/8, then before a track day add the rest to make 1/2 qt overfill.

Hey, stopping in from the invite from Ken(?) through Brandon (Slakker Racing Dev). It looks like the conversation has gotten to the same place that I've come to with the data. But first an introduction, my name is Paul. I have an '02 996 6MT cab with an FSI 3.8L Stage1 engine. It is a smile machine. Here's the beast. The different color bumper skins drive me crazy. Apologies. I have no affiliation with Brandon except through ********. He asked me to analyze data he was generating in a similar way to what I had been doing with Jason's(zbomb) data. I also have no affiliation with Jason, except through ********. He wanted to start the conversation and I offered to look at the data to generate plots and discussion. Before signing up here, I did talk with Jason to make sure that discussing or posting data provided by him would be OK. He's quite happy to share. The goal of the ******** thread is to create a data set that we can use to determine the good and bad about a product. "We" consider any data posted to that thread to be in the public domain for anyone to use. Given that these cars cost a bunch of money to fix, it would be nice to have something other than marketing assurances that a part will fix a problem. Over time, Jason's engine provided alot of data on a given engine with a specific configuration. His progression to semi-stable oil pressure was quite long and ended up with an Engine Risk of 45. His plots still showed many pressure drops, but most of these are when the the engine is not under load. Our initial hope was that many people would instrument their cars and we could get some stats going based on different engine conditions and configs. But that never happened. Until Brandon's work. Brandon has changed the config on his car several times to provide the baseline that we really needed, the stock sump. He's then tested the FVD, Hartech, & LN Deep Sumps. The data is clean and consistent, as Jason's was. And now we can start to make some larger statements about some of the products. This is getting quite long so I'll try to summarize: -LN Deep Sump looks to have no pressure drops unrelated to RPM or Variocam if the oil temp is kept below 230. We have 2 engines that show this result. We only have one session on each engine showing this, so... as a statistician I can't claim it's absolute. But it is very good. ER70, I think. Over 230F in temp we start to see pressure drops -Hartech Sump looks really good. Similar to the LN, it has no drops unrelated to RPM or Variocam. But, the tested temp is only 217F. So, can we say it's as good as the LN? I would bet yes, because the oil pressure level shows no drops at all. The ER80 analysis isn't really finding pressure drops. It's effectively reading the low pressure variation of the oil pump output. Need more data at higher oil temps to fill out the process window -FVD sump had real pressure drops. ER45 with 1qt overfill. -Stock sump. Please don't track your car with a stock sump A comment about the AOS. Jason's engine had a huge amount of blow-by that overwhelmed the AOS even at 1/4 full. Brandon's engine shows no AOS problems at 1qt overfull. Based on this, I would say each engine will have a different critical fill level that will overwhelm it. How to find out? Test it on track? Might get expensive. The fix for Jason's engine was the UAOS that includes a drain back into the sump. So when large amounts of oil got into the AOS system, it was redirected, it kept the engine from killing itself. Once this was in place, he ended up overfilling by 1qt. I wanted to push it more, but couldn't sell well enough. There's a huge amount of history in the other thread. Sorry for the length post. I'll try to summarize more succinctly as questions come up.

Paul, This overview is exactly what we (P9) need to see. As a stat's man, can you dig into the small variation in oil pressure between the LN deep sump ER70 and the Hartech oil pressure ER80. . All the LN system components seem to be OK at this point. Maybe some tracks just change the ER between these two sumps. My AOS is the Porsche 987.1 MotorSports version. Currently running Motul V 300 5W 40 Competition oil and a 996 oil/water heat exchanger. Cantrell Motor Sports in Bellevue Wa is my shop, which I have alerted to a possible change over to the Hartech pan. Jeff, the manager is excited about the project as no oil pressure development has been done in the past 5 years with the Cayman M97 engine . I do have a LN spin on filter and would like Cantrell to add a (Glowshift oil filter sandwich spacer) for oil pressure and temp pick up points for dash gauges. Thanks, Ken

Hi all, count me among those wanting their 987.1 S engine (CS in my case) to see the track and live. Timely thread and am of course intensely interested in upcoming stat driven conclusions. Apex1 you don't know me, but I sure appreciate the generously shared information I regularly read. Quick intro: I've a 2006 CS, largely stock outside of a batch of parts I purchased from Cantrell Motorsports. I first tracked the car in 2019 after installing an LN 2 qt sump and spin on filter kit along with an oil temp/pressure gauge to keep an eye on things. This year I added from above mentioned batch a take-off TPC turbo kit and a new 987 motorsports AOS . At Oregon Raceway Park hpde day Saturday oil temp stayed at 220 the first 2 30 minute sessions. Third session I cut short at 20 minutes as ambient temps neared 100 and my oil reached 240. I haven't captured temp/press output from my gauge yet, but it does have a serial out. All seems good so far, as it should be on stock suspension and 340 tw tires , cautiously optimistic it's ready for suspension and tires . Cheers, Pete