987.2 Clutch/Transmission issue-

I'm a long time lurker, first time posting here and I could use some help with an intermittent 1st and 2nd trans grind when cold. History: I've got a 2010 Cayman 2.9l with the 6 speed with 37k miles, I bought it 8 years ago with 4k miles. 4 years ago the shift cables snapped and I brought it to my indy shop who replaced the cables and changed the trans fluid and the clutch fluid. The past 4 years I haven't driven it all that much, about 12k miles. Sometimes the car sits for a few weeks, but no longer than a month. Issues: In the past 2 years (about 5k miles ago) I started noticing a squeaking sound when the clutch petal was slowly depressed, no other symptoms. 3 months ago I started her up and it would not go into 1st or 2nd gear, but it went into all other gears fine. After 5 mins of running in the garage, i tried holding the shifter towards 2nd and it finally started to slide into 2nd gear and then I was able to get it in 1st. It seemed ok after that so I drove it around the block and got it up to operating temp. The next day when I went out for a drive it did the same thing. Diagnosis: I called my local indy shop and they suggested i tow it in. They had the car for about a week and they said they found no issues with it other than a slight grind in 2nd which happened a few times over test driving it and spending a few hours looking it over. They couldn't replicate the issue since it only happens when it's cold, they said that i just have to push harder into gear and it sometimes happens when these cars age. They changed the trans fluid and said the clutch fluid was fine. I went to pick it up and the engine was cold so it was doing the same thing. This time i pushed hard and it went into 1st and 2nd. The squeaking noise disappeared but the clutch has a weird springy binding sensation when you push it in slowly. Yesterday I went to start it and it seemed worse. The car was on level ground in my garage, when started in neutral and cold, depressed the clutch and moved the shifter towards 1st, I had a sensation the car moved forward before i even put it in gear (as if someone was rocking the car from behind). For the first 3 miles it was very inconsistent, there was a slight grind when forcing it in 1st and 2nd but not all the time. As the car warmed up it drove completely fine. This morning it did the same thing, but this time I noticed that sensation of the car moving forward was so bad that the car started to roll down out of the garage, over a rubber door seal I have on the garage floor and down the driveway without me even releasing the clutch or putting it in 1st. Since the car drives fine when warm, I feel like I'll get the same response from the Indy shop. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this or have had issues like this? Thank you

It sounds as if your clutch isn't fully releasing. The shop should have spotted this - I'd suggest finding a new shop. Since it's 1st and 2nd gear it isn't likely to be synchros (like the airhead Porsches had issues with).. Quick test: engine idling. Clutch to the floor. Try to put it into 1st gear. If it resists, reach over and turn off the engine. If it immediately slides into gear your clutch is kaput. It could be a damaged clutch lining, a bad hydraulic circuit component, or a throwout bearing or fork.. Lots of stuff it could be. A good shop will sort it out. As you've learned good shops are hard to find. And hopefully, they didn't charge you for a week of your car sitting around their lot.

Thank you. I tried what you suggested and the clutch goes right in. Time to find a new shop or at worst case, the dealership. If the clutch ever went, I told myself I'd go with a lightweight flywheel such as the Sharkwerks 14lb, or Aasco 18lb SMFW with a Sachs performance clutch. It really all depends on what my OE DMFW looks like.

Am I correct in assuming you meant the "gear shift" went right in? If so - it's time to have it looked at by someone who knows what they're doing. It may be as simple as a failed hydraulic component in the clutch circuit (bad slave cylinder typically.) Or it could be something requiring the transmission be removed. One is a little job, one is a big job. And the big job always ends up growing bigger.. one of those "while we're in the area.." things. I'd think hard about the gain you're seeking with a lightweight flywheel. If they offered wonderful things Porsche would have put them on at the factory. One thing commonly heard about them is transmission input-shaft gear rattle from them (in neutral, or clutch in) and the car being difficult to launch smoothly. Just ask here and I'm sure some members with first-hand experience will tell you their experiences. There is a reason for dual-mass flywheels..

BTW - after you get the clutch sorted out - please visit New Member Introductions and tell us about you, and your car. Photos of the car are appreciated! And welcome to Planet-9, the Friendly Porsche Forum!

Yes, gear shift. My intent with the SMFW was that it would rev quicker, something 5 to 10lbs ligher that is balanced. I may regret it so I'll search the forum to see what others have to say on the SMFW subject so I can get a better idea. I'll respond back with a diagnosis on the issue.

First off there is no clutch fluid. There is a clutch slave cylinder that uses some of the brake fluid and might require bleeding. Additionally, there's some adjustability in the shift console for the shift cables that will have an effect on first gear. My 1st gear is always a bit tight in the cooler weather, but within less than a mile of driving it works fine. Edited 'clutch cable' to shift cable

The two hydraulic circuits share a common reservoir. I'm of the mind that once it heads down the tubing to the clutch master cylinder, it rightfully could be called "clutch fluid".. but whatever. Are the "clutch cables" that you're speaking of the shift cables? Being tight going into 1st gear in cool weather typically is caused by the transmission oil thickening up due to cold. Not at all uncommon on almost any stick-shift car. My BMW's were always difficult into 1st when it got below about 40F for the first 10 minutes. I guess a binding cable might act that way too.. But - his original description "The car was on level ground in my garage, when started in neutral and cold, depressed the clutch and moved the shifter towards 1st, I had a sensation the car moved forward before i even put it in gear (as if someone was rocking the car from behind)." really sounds like a dragging clutch (not fully releasing) combined with some hydraulic gear coupling going on because of cold gear oil. That's why I suggested the test I did. There can be two reasons a transmission is difficult to get into gear (besides an obviously broken transmission or bad linkage) - first is bad synchros. If the synchro's are worn and have trouble getting the gears to matching speeds so they can mesh without clashing, the symptoms could be like this (also possibly caused by too thick a gear oil being used, but since that wasn't changed, it's not a possibility IMHO). The second is a dragging clutch. If the clutch isn't fully releasing (decoupling) when you're trying to shift into gear, there is power being put into the gear pair that's meshing. They won't mesh easily if that's the case and the synchros have to work extra hard to make the shift happen. If this is the case - and it's difficult to get it into gear, removing the source of the power (which is supposed to be done by the clutch) by stopping the engine - and they shift easily into the gear - that's almost certainly a sign of a clutch that isn't fully releasing. As the transmission warms up the oil becomes thinner making the job of the synchro's easier and the dragging clutch isn't as much of an issue. the OP also said "The squeaking noise disappeared but the clutch has a weird springy binding sensation when you push it in slowly. " - that rather obviously indicates some issue with the clutch releasing. A bad pressure plate? A warped clutch disk? A bad slave cylinder? Lots of possibilities, just needs someone who knows what they're looking at to sort it out.

Update: I brought it back to the original Indy shop that looked at it a month ago but couldn't diagnose the issue. Full disclosure, the shop was previously unaware of the issue where the car was able to move on its own when moving the shifter towards first gear with the clutch pedal fully depressed. I discovered this after they couldn't diagnose the 1st & 2nd gear not going in gear when cold. A tow truck dropped it off 2 days ago, I had to go over there to show them what it was doing. It took about 5 minutes to find level ground but we were able to replicate the problem, I got the SA to consistently do it. They replaced the clutch slave cylinder and flushed the clutch/brake reservoir. They said that it no longer moves on its own when pressing 1st gear. They still have the car till Monday so I won't know if that solved the issue yet, but I'll post once I get it home.

Wonderful.. my guess is the issue was resolved with replacing the clutch slave cylinder.. Cool beans!

I got a call from the shop saying the car was ready, I asked and they ensured me that the car was not moving forward on it's own when pressing the shift lever towards 1st. So I picked up my car this evening and it was a complete fail. The shop replaced the slave cylinder and flushed the clutch/brake fluid for over $700 and it did nothing to solve the issue. I started it up and noticed right away that 1st gear was fighting me to go into gear, so I pushed it in 2nd and 3rd and got it to go into 1st and it loosened up a bit. It's 67 degrees outside so I wouldn't really say it's a cold start. I thought about going back in but my ride was already 20 minutes down the road and I'm pretty much done having them diagnose this issue, I think they have done all they are capable of. I drove it home and to their defense it drives perfectly fine on the surface. The clutch does not slip and it goes into gear rather well. I parked it outside on level ground when I got home and the car was idling in neutral with the parking brake off, the car was stationary and not moving at all. I sat there for a minute thinking about my next step. I was just curious to see what would happen if I pushed the shift lever towards 1st gear without pushing the clutch down just to see what it would do. Sure enough the car consistently crawls forward if i hold the shift lever towards first, it rolled 12 feet forward. I hit the brakes to stop the car and it stood still, I tried it again and it crawled forward. I'll admit, in 20 years of driving stick, it never crossed my mind to try this, but this can't be normal. I tried searching for indy shops near me and based on the yelp reviews I'm not comfortable with any of them other than bringing it to a dealership or a dealer mechanic. I heard that Porsche does not rebuild transmissions and they are in the realm of $10k. Can anyone confirm if dealerships rebuild transmissions or should i expect that sort of bill if it came down to needing new synchros and full clutch assembly? I have a friend that works at a Porsche dealership about 2 hours south of me and I'm going to talk to him about it tomorrow.

I think talking to your friend and perhaps making a road trip to visit over the weekend might be productive. Did the original shop ever change the transmission oil? (You mentioned it in the original post, but it's not clear when they did this.) If so - is there any record of what they used? As a general point - use of GL5 oils is not encouraged in transmissions. Most GL5 oils have a large dose of sulphur in them that will eat up the syncro's. It might also cause the symptoms you're seeing. Given the incompetence shown by the shop already it wouldn't surprise me at all if they put the wrong oil in. What should be in there is GL4 oil. Ask your friend what oil his Porsche dealership uses when they change transmission oil, and you might want to consider a DIY on changing it. https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=gl5+and+manual+transmission And one really out-there suggestion: If I was having the issue you are, especially where it becomes normal as the transmission temperature rises a bit, I might try using automatic-transmission-fluid (ATF) in the gearbox. I did that decades ago in a Toyota Supra 5 speed I owned that was balky shifting when cold, and had a screaming noise from the transmission when it got hot and I was upshifting to maybe 3rd gear Anyway - a good friend/mechanic suggested it. Some manual transmission cars specify using ATF in their manual transmission cars. It was just my experience - but putting the ATF in ended up with a transmission that shifted wonderfully, and was quiet too. It had ATF for the rest of it's ownership by me. Never had another issue with it. It might just be worth a try.

They say they used OEM trans fluid, not sure if it's gl5 or not. They changed it about 200 miles ago. I'll see what he says about atf, it's as thin as oil gets. Not sure what the downside is but at this point it might be worth it. I'll keep you updated as this progress. Thanks for the quick response.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a manual trans with a working synchro might move forward when the car is fully declutched. This is because the synchros are supposed to "touch first" before the dogs in the transmission engage? For this reason, I would expect the car to creep forward. If you did this with the clutch fully depressed, then I agree, the car shouldn't move... because that's what the clutch is for, after all. But your text said you did this test "without pushing the clutch down". What am I missing here? EDIT: I read a bit more deeply on this thread. I'm thinking it's the clutch as well... not so much that it's worn out, but maybe a finger or something is broken on the pressure plate. This can cause the clutch not to fully release as well. For that matter, I recall seeing someone's clutch (not sure if it was on a Porsche or not) with a piece of debris that got stuck between the friction surfaces (it may have been a piece of friction material from the clutch)... that caused theirs to drag as well. Also, regarding the lighter flywheel - I don't think that's the solution to what you want. The rev issues on this car are usually due to the very lazy mapping of the throttle input from the pedal. Most people find that the Sprint Booster (or similar) help resolve that issue.

Thank you, yes you are correct, the synchro's are doing all the work if I'm not pushing down the clutch. Obviously that's not good to do and not something I have ever done before nor did I try this more than a few times. By doing this, it made me realize that the amount of resistance I'm getting when I try to push the clutch down and move the shift lever towards 1st is the same as if I don't push the clutch down at all. The shift cables were replaced with the OEM revised kit about 10k miles ago by this same shop 4 years ago when they snapped leaving me stuck in 1st gear. OEM Trans fluid was flushed at that same time, with 25k miles on the car. To recap, after replacing the transmission Fluid OEM and Clutch/Brake fluid OEM and a new OEM Clutch Slave Cylinder in the last 200 miles* there hasn't been any improvements: -If the car sits in my garage in 60 degree weather for about 12 hours or more 1. With the engine just started and in neutral on level ground. I push the clutch pedal all the way down, 1st gear always has total resistance and won't go in easily unless I sit there and let it idle and/or shift it in other gears by pushing down and releasing the clutch pedal several times to engage 1st. I have no issues shifting in any gear while the ignition is off. The car will crawl forward if I have the clutch pedal down and I push the shift lever towards 1st gear. The only way to avoid 1st gear resistance is if I start the car in 1st gear. 2. I can force it in 1st gear at the start and it goes in most of the time. Before I brought the car back to the shop to diagnose and install the new Slave and clutch fluid exchange, I was able to get past step 1 and 2 and I drove it for 2 miles and came to light on a downward incline. 1st and 2nd gear had total resistance and I forced it in 1st gear and it grinded on me, 2nd also grinded that time, all within the first 10 minutes of driving. What is perplexing is that after step 1 was complete, it shifted into all gears fine for the first 2 miles. I assumed it would not have grinded on me, but now I'm worried it could grind at any time I force it in it's a bigger issue. 3. Once I've completed steps 1 and 2 and driven the car for 5 miles or 10 minutes it appears to drive fine. The clutch engages as it should and goes into all gears smoothly. I haven't had a chance to talk to the Porsche mechanic yet but hopefully he will have some suggestions on the next steps.

I know this is a simplistic thing, but has anyone checked the transmission oil level? The reason I ask is that a low level might explain why things work better once it’s been warmed up.

That is a good point. The shop changed the trans fluid 200 mi ago. I assumed they added it correctly but it wouldn't hurt to check. I think I'll do that over the weekend. I spoke to my buddy who's a Porsche mechanic. Based on the summary above, he said the trans needs to come out to inspect the clutch assembly. He suspects a defect or cracked pressure plate, hence the intermittent issues described above. If there is nothing worn in the clutch assembly then the transmission is the culprit. Porsche does not service transmissions, they just replace them🥺. He gave me the name of a reputable shop owner in Santa Monica who I will call in the morning to discuss the next steps.

Sounds like a decent mechanic.. I said about a week ago: I'm surprised he didn't mention a warped clutch disk, that isn't really uncommon.. and has the same effect as a warped pressure plate.

Of course, I agree with the clutch/pressure plate inspection. I figure that's where the problem is. I would recommend getting a replacement one as you might as well replace it while you're in there even if it looks fine.

Two things I’m getting out of this discussion: I agree with ‘schwinn’ here about checking the clutch/pressure plate, maybe even a warped or deformed flywheel. And secondly, I would NOT bring my car back to this mechanic. I wouldn’t trust him to put air in my tires .

The plot thickens, I looked through the records of the shop and they are not using oem fluids and I have no idea if they used an oe shifter cable revision, slave or what. 3/20/18 20,280 miles Transmission Fluid Changed - Motul Gear 300 75w90 synthetic 1/9/23 36,578 miles Transmission Fluid Changed - BG UltraGuard 75w90 and a BG Limited Slip gear oil Additive 2/8/23 36,680 miles Clutch Fluid Change and Slave Cylinder - used ATE Type 200 Supergold Fluid & what appears to be an OE Slave part # I only have myself to blame, I should have just trusted the dealership to handle this. I should have more information on Tues/Wed once the new shop looks it over. They may want to flush all the BG snake oil out of the trans and see if that solves the problem.

Good find. I don't think non-OEM is necessarily bad, but whatever it is should match the required specs... so it would be good to check. If it doesn't match, then that's a good lead on the matter. If the specs match (GL rating as well as anti-slip additives and weights), then it may not be the issue, and you could skip that step/cost. Of course, you could change it anyway if you really wanted to... but I'm of the belief that if the specs match then you should be fine. Of course, a fluid change would be cheaper than the clutch work, but I really feel that's where the issue lies...

. My sentiments exactly. It will be interesting to see what my new shop says when they start to dive in.

This change is REALLY worrisome: 1/9/23 36,578 miles Transmission Fluid Changed - BG UltraGuard 75w90 and a BG Limited Slip gear oil Additive That has no place in your transmission unless you have a limited slip differential in it (unlikely but not impossible - it would be on your build sheet). Limited Slip "additives" make the gear oil more slippery. This might sound like a great thing, but it can reduce the effectiveness of synchronizers making the transmission harder to shift... which you have. My suggestion - get that crap out of there.

The limited slip additive is definitely a bad idea, and that can screw up synchronizer performance. Agree it should probably be drained and replaced. That said, if the car's creeping forward with the clutch down then the transmission fluid and/or cables have nothing to do with the issue. Your clutch is dragging: either there's a hydraulic issue with the clutch release, or a mechanical issue with the clutch or pressure plate itself. If the clutch is dragging that'll definitely cause issues getting into gear as well. Looks like they replaced the slave to try to solve the problem? Assuming they did that and bled it properly, then that suggests some issue with the clutch assembly. I also agree that you should probably find a new mechanic!

Update: The shop owner had driven the car several times and can attest to the shifting issues as well as the intermittent clutch disengagement. They first requested my approval to remove the console so they can check the shifter cable alignment. He adjusted the shifter cables which are in good order now, the cables were improperly aligned in between 1st and 2nd gear. The previous shop had installed the cables 10k mi ago and assured me they were checked two months ago when i brought it in for this issue. He said the shifting has improved but the disengagement is still there. The trans fluid was at the proper level but I requested that he drain the BG Trans fluid and LSD additive (i don't have an LSD ) to put OE fluid in the trans; it did not solve the disengagement issues. The trans was dropped this morning and the clutch assembly was inspected. No smoking gun but when placed on the bench he could see the clutch disc is slightly warped, warped enough to cause the disengagement issue. The Flywheel is in very good condition and there are no hot spots. He noted the car was driven easy as everything looked to spec (other than the warped disc). The disc had quite a bit of meat left on it (I believe he said 1mm but don't quote me on that). The plan is to get a new OE Porsche Clutch disc, PP, fork, bearing and to reuse the flywheel as is. Since the console is removed from the shifter cables, I decided to splurge and get the OEM GT3 shifter assembly with metal bushings.

Welp, at least someone finally seems to have solved it. I figured you'd find something like that. When the clutch pedal is down, the engine should be physically disconnected from the transmission. So if the clutch is working right there's absolutely no way for anything aft of the clutch (transmission, shifter assembly, shift cables, fluid, gears, synchros, whatever) to cause the car to creep with the clutch pedal down. Any competent mechanic should have understood that right off the bat, and honestly it's pretty disturbing that their first thought after verifying that symptom was "let's check the shift cables". Is this the same shop as before? Because if what you're saying about their troubleshooting capabilities is accurate then you really need to find another shop. I'm purely shade-tree but apparently I'm a lot better than your guys! Anyway, once isolated to the clutch then it's got to be either the hydraulic release mechanism or, failing that, the clutch assembly is f-ed in some way.

Both shops worked the cables, the 1st shop who installed them 10k mi ago, never adjusted them properly. The current mechanic told me that he knew there were 2 issues, one being the disengagement issues and second, something wrong with the cables.

God news and thanks for the update

I had an incident this morning that made me think of this thread. I am in the process of doing a brake job (pads & rotors followed by flush) on my 2010 Cayman 2.9L MT. The car is up on Quick Jack with wheels off. I just finished the last (left rear) wheel and wanted to test that the new wear sensors were all working, so I started the car and stepped away It was in neutral. I noticed the left rear hub/ rotor was slowly spinning. That's what reminded me of this thread. The right rear was stationary. After double checking it was in neutral, I put a gloved hand on the rotor and easily stopped it. When I let go, it remained stationary, but with a slight nudge, it started moving again. Is this normal? Oh, one other odd thing associated with the above. I was able to start the engine without getting in and pressing the clutch or brake. I assumed my clutch switch is faulty and don't think it is related to the rotation.

I would think the starting without a clutch issue is the switch.

So, it's not clear to me that you have a problem, and it definitely ain't a clutch problem. With the car in neutral and the clutch not pressed down, the clutch is fully engaged and the engine is transmitting power into the transmission. So in the situation you described the input shaft, the layshaft, and all of the gears in the transmission are spinning. The output shaft should not be spinning because the car is not in gear (shifting into gear connects the output shaft to one of the gears spinning on it, but you haven't done that). What I suspect is happening is that with cold, thick gear oil, there's enough friction that the spinning gears are applying a little rotational force to the output shaft, and that's giving you the lazy wheel spin. So I haven't tried this on the 987, but from the description and the way things in the transmission work I don't think you have a problem.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The car was stone cold after it had been up on Quick Jacks for a couple days. Additionally, since I had just changed the rotor & pads, the pistons were still fully compressed into the caliper. So there was next-to-no resistance. I might try it again now that the brake job is done and I can get it to normal operating temp.

Problem solved: the trans was dropped and the clutch assembly was inspected. The pressure plate had very little wear on it and the flywheel was in excellent condition as well. The clutch disc had a slight warp to it when it was laid flat on the bench, warped enough to cause the disengagement issue. The shop owner commented that everything appeared to be taken care of and that it wasn't abused based on his inspection. A new OEM Porsche Clutch disc, Pressure plate, bearing and clutch fork was replaced. The original flywheel was reused as he said it was in excellent condition. At some point he felt their was air in the clutch fluid line and he bled it once more and he noticed the pedal was firmer. all in all the issue has been completely resolved and so far I spend the weekend driving it around on the highway and in stop and go traffic so there's been over 100 miles added to it. I also went with the OE GT3 shifter assembly. I can't say for certain that I noticed very much difference from the factory Cayman shifter assembly but the action is so smooth and it goes into gears alot easier then I can remember, especially 1st, 2nd and Reverse gears. I asked for the original parts back as I'm planning to make a garage clock out of the old pressure plate and clutch disc. I may try to reuse the fork and bearing as a pendulum, but we will see what I can come up with. Here's a photo of those old parts, considering that there was a disengagement issue I'm surprised they look as good as they did. Thanks for everyone's guidance, special shout out to Don For those of you who are in Ventura county California and wanted to know more about the shops I've had encounters with feel free to PM me. Cheers

YEA!

Great news. BTW, the GT3 shifter is just a beefed-up version of the original stock one. Some metal vs plastic parts. Same throw. Yes, it will have a slightly nicer feel - but probably so would any new shifter. I'm sure the installer also checked the alignment (tool included with the new shifter) so you're probably noticing that change as well.