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YOUR RESEARCHAny Group IV A40 oils?
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well, incase someone else is following this and to eliminate any confusion, I just got off the phone with the Motul Rep (Nick) and he explained to me that Motul is (actually today) releasing a C40 spec 5W-40 X-Clean "Gen 2" that will be what I need to switch over to..
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Unofficially, we have plenty of Porsche owners who have run emissions equipment and diligently changed their 300V every ~3,000 street miles for over 10 years without issues.
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Some may notice the spike in silicon to 27, but that was also the first change done after I had resealed the oil pan with DreiBond.
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Our Sport 5W40 has a drain interval recommendation of 5,000 miles and is highly recommended by our technical director for tuned cars used on the street, a step below 300V with a longer drain interval.
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Ravenol SSL used for winter, very similar to VST but 0W40, For incoming summer Liqui Moly Synthoil High Tech 5W-40; PAO but with more ZDDP and Molybdenum instead of Wolfram., HTHS around 3.9, Visc 40C 90 ; Visc 100C 14.5 Unfortunately Liqui Moly Synthoil is not PAO for US market.
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Suggestion
well, incase someone else is following this and to eliminate any confusion, I just got off the phone with the Motul Rep (Nick) and he explained to me that Motul is (actually today) releasing a C40 spec 5W-40 X-Clean "Gen 2" that will be what I need to switch over to..
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The attached document from LN Engineering says Porsche is now recommending for 996s their Classic 5w-50, so apparently now the OEM feels an even thicker oil than A40 is needed to protect our engines.
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Suggestion
Our Sport 5W40 has a drain interval recommendation of 5,000 miles and is highly recommended by our technical director for tuned cars used on the street, a step below 300V with a longer drain interval.
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Suggestion
Coming up first oil change '02 911 and greatly appreciate this info to help us choose weight, brand, and options in motor oil to protect our expensive engine.
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Like many owners we daily drive in mild temps and will probably change around 5k miles or 6 months, so mainly need piston bore and bearing protection not extended drain intervals or racing extremes.
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This is not a what is the best oil thread, or even a does Group IV matter thread, I'm just wondering if anybody can help me in my search. It seems all the A40 oils I have looked at (including the Motul X-Cess) are Group III. Are any of the A40 oils Group IV?
Well, you satisfied the two requirements I gave when I couldn't, but sadly MB 229.51 instead of 229.5 and BMW LL-04 instead of LL-01 means it's not a full-SAPS oil and thus not to be used with USA gas, especially with no particulate filter to worry about protecting.
The company Torco is based in California so odd their product is not to be used in the USA. We haven't decided on a brand and weight of oil yet. It shouldn't be hard but Porsche had different recommendations over time, manufacturers change their oil and gasoline formulations, SAPS, ZDDP, etc. etc. Flat 6 Innovations is experienced and they recommend a brand I hadn't heard of before, surprised that would be better than a Mobil 1 or Castrol.
MB 229.51 is their oil spec for diesels with particulate filters. BMW LL-04 was a not-for-USA spec, though really it was again just a spec for diesels with particulate filters, but also for gasoline engines in the EU only, and they weren't bringing any of those diesels over here (BMW went out of their way and used to have a page on their bmwusa.com website that said LL-04 is not for the USA use LL-01), so it's not exactly that these are not for USA specs, but not for USA gasoline, diesel is fine.
The Motul Flat 6 recommended before the Driven oil is a good oil, another good one is Total Quartz Energy 9000, but they are both Group III. The Total and the Motul have similar specs, though the total is a little thicker at 100C than the Motul (and both are a good bit thicker at 100C than Mobil 1) I don't know what Group the Driven is. I know I use Driven oils in my non-catalytic converter cars and they are a good brand, but when there is a relevant factory authorization still in existance I like to stick with it. Hilariously, the newest approved oil sheet from Porsche just says to use their own Porsche branded oil, now that they sell such a thing and no longer lists lal the approved oils, though it does still reference A40 for our cars.
(as an aside, is this Torco not the same Torco that is in Chicago?)
The only hard spec I can find is the > or = 3.5 on the HTHS, which everything halfway decent is now, but this tool provides some reference for what the spec must otherwise somehow implicate (I'm guessing the spec also incorporates by reference an ACEA spec)
https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html
Do you have information from a more reputable source such as Porsche or any of the major oil brands? I'm a little apprehensive about information that is circulated through forums.
I just figured out Porsche spec A40 means 40 weight oil. That's different than my owner's manual which recommends much thinner oils, and presumably through receiving so many failed engines Porsche decided better to trade off some fuel economy and air pollution for engines that don't self-destruct.
The attached document from LN Engineering says Porsche is now recommending for 996s their Classic 5w-50, so apparently now the OEM feels an even thicker oil than A40 is needed to protect our engines.
It seems most owners today use 5w-40, and should we be switching to 5w-50? Had Porsche recommended 50 weight oil in their owner's guide I wonder if there never would have been ISB, bore scoring, and even RMS leaks?
The latest latest one I have seen is in this post
https://rennlist.com/forums/718-foru...l#post15939469
and in their March 2019 bulletin Porsche still lists A40 as being for 911s in the relevant years to us, and says that A40 can be a 0w-40, a 5w-40, or a 5w-50.
Driven is a Group IV - they use mPAO.
To answer your original question, you are unlikely to find a group IV based A40 as the way the manufacturer specification works, as does with the Dexos and other standards, that a particular base stock is chosen as well as the additive package. There is some wiggle room in formulation as far as viscosity, so that is why there is some variation in HTHS vis numbers, however the makeup of the oil additives and base stock is typically predetermined by the oil standard requirements. Changing the recipe requires you to pay to put the oil through the physical test, where otherwise you only have to pay the licensing fee to Porsche.
Attached is the Porsche bulletin approving oils that marlinspike referred to dated 07/19.
It recommends Porsche Classic 5w-50 and oils with the A40 specification, and as marlinspike says A40 viscosities can be 0w-40, 5w-40, or 5w-50.
So
A40 certified 5w-40
is probably all one needs to know for a 996 daily driver, and differences between brands and multiple offerings by one brand will likely never be noticed.
I've wondered if the Motrex 4T wouldn't be a great oil for these engines..
The 4t is designed for extremely high shear, (Due to the bike transmission shared with the crankcase)
So should provide good oiling for all the high stress bits in our engines, like the IMS/Cam Chain system/Variocam etc..
The Bike engines its designed for have a lot in common with w/ the Porsche water-cooled boxers..
Coated AL bores, high rpm operating environment
Stuff isn't cheap but it easily goes the full 5000 miles in my bike..
Its also not a extreme cold weather product its a 20W60 ,
but Motrex makes several viscosities that match the Porsche recommendations.
Its also available in gallon jugs which is kinda handy.
Not a recommendation just looking at what are the options for reasonable oils for a motor like the 996/997..
Yea, we dot always get the "good stuff" imported,, wonder if you called Motrex if they would fess up to which ones = which,,
one of the US oils might be the same stuff in a different labeled bottle.. FOr a different marketing purpose,, Like the "racing" 4t.
Our Motul 8100 X-max 0W40 continues to use a Group IV PAO in the formula and is our only A40 approved oil with that level of synthetic material. The original formula of X-max 0W-40 was designed with performance in mind for cars like the 911 and Nissan GT-R, without manufacturer approvals. The blend was later updated to meet approvals like A40 and the PAO remained.
X-Cess 5W40 uses a Group 3 base and doesn't contain any PAO/Ester materials. The X-max 0W40 is a blend of Group 3 and 4 (PAO), and while they've never provided specific percentages (even to us) the mix is balanced to meet the manufacturer's approvals, targetted costs, and our performance/reliability goals.
The reason you typically don't see a ton of Group 4/5 oils with manufacturer approvals is the additive packages required to protect emissions equipment is much easier to blend with a Group 3 carrier without issues at a chemistry level. It can be done, as we have in X-max, but the cost of development is significantly higher for a rather limited return in protection for general road use considering the quality of materials currently being synthesized at a Group 3 level.
Products like our Sport 5W40 (PAO/Ester) and 300V (Ester) are specifically made for high-performance and racing applications, respectively, and allow for a blend that can focus on outright performance and protection without having to worry about the same additives.
Few more questions to ask. We've always recommended for cars under warranty that required an A40 to use X-Cess 5w40.
Ho how does the X-Cess and X-max compare on sulfated ash %. Are both full SAPS oils? I presume the X-max would have a lower HTHS vis, correct?
Is there any difference in the street oils for moly content to help with Al-Si cylinder bore wear?
I have yet to evaluate the sport oil. What kind of drain interval is that oil rated for?
Does Motul offer any oils for DI engines good for LSPI protection (like a Porsche C40 oil)?
Officially, A40 approved oils are the only way to guarantee the proper preservation of critical emissions components. Unofficially, we have plenty of Porsche owners who have run emissions equipment and diligently changed their 300V every ~3,000 street miles for over 10 years without issues.
For sulfated ash, both X-Cess 5W40 and X-Max 0W40 are at 1.1% and Full SAPS
With regards to bore wear, the Sport and 300V won't necessarily have more moly but their extreme pressure additive package is more robust. See the chart below of a Porsche Cup Car 3.6L run on a dyno to simulate the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the metallic wear in the first 8 hours is nearly immeasurable.
In saying that, see the chart below to show where our X-Cess 5W40 landed on the ACEA Bore Polishing test compared to the max allowed. X-Max 0W40 would fare similarly but we we don't have a chart.
All of our "X-" oils are High HTHS and our "Eco-" oils are Low HTHS as they are designed for fuel economy.
Our Sport 5W40 has a drain interval recommendation of 5,000 miles and is highly recommended by our technical director for tuned cars used on the street, a step below 300V with a longer drain interval.
We have submitted our updated X-Clean 5W40 for the C40 approval and should have the confirmation letter from Porsche by Dec/Jan.
Coming up first oil change '02 911 and greatly appreciate this info to help us choose weight, brand, and options in motor oil to protect our expensive engine.
Like many owners we daily drive in mild temps and will probably change around 5k miles or 6 months, so mainly need piston bore and bearing protection not extended drain intervals or racing extremes.
Dang,, I am glad everybody chimed in,, I really like the Motul in my bike, tried a
couple and had shifting issues, or just unhappy noise that didn't seem right..
And +1 on the worthwhile oil thread!
I�m thinking of switching away from Mobil 1 0w-40 Euro spec. Would Motul 8100 X-max 0w-40 be a good replacement for a daily driver 99 996 (including winter, summer, and limited track)? The specs for viscosity look like a close match.
if we drive a 2020 992 (US Spec without the Particulate filter) do we really need the C40 oil that the owners manual specs? I feel like this is a lazy oversight by Porsche not to have the A40 as the spec for US versions... or is there more to the C40 than the Particulate filter?
I've been thinking of making the switch too. With 6 month oil changes DT-40 gets expensive when I have to ship it in to the middle of the Pacific.
So, I'm looking tor the second best option!
so is Mobil 1 ESP C40 the cause higher Ca or is it the A40 Motul / Mobil 1?
made the switch to Motul 8100 Max today at the 1000 mile mark... hope you’re not implying I need to switch back 😂
my original question was why are the cars without the exhaust particulate filter spec�d for C40 in the owners manual but on the Porsche internal sheet they give to the dealers it says cars without the filter are to use A40? Which the X-max is.. moreover, am I losing some protection by using a C40 oil over an A40.... if I followed the above correctly .. I am.
I haven't seen an internal sheet for the 2020s yet. Is one linked her that I've missed? Navarro was telling you the chance to the C spec is also keep from exploding the engine.
Are you being dramatic? I heard no mention of engines exploding anywhere, certainly not by him... the 992 S engine is so similar to the 991.2 engine that if this were the case, Porsche would change them over to C40 as well no? .. and the most recent internal sheet is linked on here more recently in this post..
https://rennlist.com/forums/718-foru...l#post15939469
You wanted a plain English explaination.
Though, to be fair, it is an unintentional explosion in your engine and it can be catastrophic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_pre-ignition
Go to page 5 of the document you linked me to. 2020 is there and it considers both configurations.
interesting... so why hasn't this been happening with the A40 spec over the last several generation of 911's? Ok... so unless I hear otherwise, I will switch back form Motul 8100 X-Max to Mobil 1 ESP... hmm..
It wasn't a problem until they started combining turbos with direct injection, which hasn't been going on for very long. Btw, I edited my post, the document does address 2020 and says to use C40 for both with and without filter.
man, this is good info.... so glad I join this chat.. Well, I guess it will not do harm to keep this A40 oil in the engine for another 4000 miles and then at 5K change back over to C40... just hoping Motul has a 0w-40 product by then, as right now it's just the Mobil 1 ESP.
well, incase someone else is following this and to eliminate any confusion, I just got off the phone with the Motul Rep (Nick) and he explained to me that Motul is (actually today) releasing a C40 spec 5W-40 X-Clean "Gen 2" that will be what I need to switch over to.. the LSPI issue being addressed in this latest formulation. The C40 isn't just a particulate filter spec... which is what I was originally getting to with my question.
For a vehicle out of warranty, like a 996, are you recommending DT40? If so, what was X-cess/X-max/etc lacking that led you, Jake, and others to develop what we now know as DT40?
Yes, for a port injected engine M96/M97 engine for the street we are still recommending DT40. For direct injected, DI40.
The premise behind the Driven oils that we worked together with Driven to develop was to use a better base stock (uses mPAO which holds its viscosity better) along with optimized ZDDP, moly, and detergent levels. It's not optimized for long drain intervals or emissions system protection.
Likewise, the DI oils are formulated such that even though it's a 0w40, it actually has a HTHS vis higher than DT40 to fight fuel dilution common to DI engines plus LSPI protection.
Both oils have significantly more moly than an A40 oil to help with friction and wear (which we now know also helps with preventing scoring).
Better late than never I guess. There are a few out there which have at least some group IV content - the best place to check is on the MSDS (safety) sheets which normally give a range. For full SAPs you need an ACEA A3/B4 rather then a C3 - as you already pointed out in a reply A40 straddles both categories.
Mobil 1 0W40 FS 10-20% PAO i.e. predominantly group III based (MSDS 27 Sept 19)
Castrol Edge 0W40 A3/B4 25-50% PAO (MSDS 6 Sept 19)
Motul 8100 X-Max 0W40 25-50% PAO (MSDS 17 Sept 19)
Petronas Syntium 7000 0W40 30-40% PAO (MSDS 22 Feb 18)
Ravenol USVO SSL 0W40 PAO unknown
The Ravenol is marketed in Germany as Fully Synthetic which means it has a very high % of PAO; I can't remember what the threshold is but there was a court case from back in 2008 where a oil marketer was prohibited from using the term "fully synthetic" even though their oil had >45% PAO, so you can be sure the Ravenol is at least 50% PAO. As for the others listed, the Mobil-1 is predominantly a group III based oil while the Castrol, Petronas and Motul appear to be predominantly group IV based.
Ravenol SSL used for winter, very similar to VST but 0W40, For incoming summer Liqui Moly Synthoil High Tech 5W-40; PAO but with more ZDDP and Molybdenum instead of Wolfram., HTHS around 3.9, Visc 40C 90 ; Visc 100C 14.5 Unfortunately Liqui Moly Synthoil is not PAO for US market. Summer oil for my cars has just arrived.
Although not as likely when switching between A40 oils because they are all very similar (if not the same) because of certification requirements, you could have additive clash going between different brands of oil. If you do used oil analysis, the results are going to be messed up if there is additive clash.
Some part of declared PAO oils must be Group III oil, additive package is mostly mixed in it, pure PAO do not exist . The best way to see if oil is PAO (amount of PAO in mix) without light analysis is NOACK. If NOACK is above 9 oil is not PAO, NOACK less than 7.5 is very good PAO mix. So a number of oils you have mentioned have PAO only in very small percentage.
No clash
99% of additives known are compatible. Base stock oil + Viscosity improvers + additive package is engine oil. They are just mixing plants, they do not produce base oil....who has better cocktail for your engine think of it. Add too much additives like LM MOS product to oil already dosed very much with Molybdenum can cause trouble. Can you show me two not compatible A40 oils?
As I stated, there should be no problem switching between A40s.
I'm not a fan of using oil additives unless the oil and additive are from the same manufacturer. It's a science experiment at that point.
Fully agree, it is experiment. On other hand just a few words more from my end, for percentage of group V in mix very good indication is Oxidation (lIf oxidation is less than 10 - 15 oil has no group V in mix) , Ester will keep humidity if car is not driven and will oxidize soon, that is the reason Group V oil mix do not get approval for street use. HC oils are recognized with low flash point.......I prefer more rich ZDDP package not friendly for catalysts with friction modifiers like Molybdenum or Wolfram (Wolfram is reducing friction above 120C only, bad point is it is solid but very small particles less than 5 but is still solid not dissolved......) than Esters in mixture. By the way LM Synthoil has no A40 approval, traditional old school additive package, approval not extended, now LM Leichtlauf has A40. lowered ZDDP level, somewhere on X-cess level , both oils group 3 oils.. For all statements have analysis results so it is not only bla bla
You can ask Motul guy how much ZDDP X-cess has now and how much was before 10 years, yes they have to keep A40 approval, or why Sport or 300V will never get A40 approval and so on....no many insiders will share that info
So called new line of oils, low SAPS oil with, low TBN and A40 approval better not to comment.
My point is,today it is impossible to find A40 approved oil with adequate ZDDP content.
Have to take sample from my used Ravenol SSL
Here are mine spanning nearly three years and 13,000 miles using DT40. I had to do a screenshot so hopefully it�s still legible.
Some may notice the spike in silicon to 27, but that was also the first change done after I had resealed the oil pan with DreiBond.
I don�t know. Hopefully someone with some technical background can chime in.
My first report with DT40 was after using BR40 for 500 miles to flush previous oils from the car. I�m not sure if that had any impact on my UOA�s though.
Driven DI 0w40 is mPAO based and also polyol ester (V).
Amsoil SS 0w40 is PAO and Ester
Mobil 1 ESP and Mobil 1 FS 0w40 is PAO, GTL, AN (alkylated napthelene) and polyol ester.
Red Line 0w40 is PAO and significant V (estimated at 30-50%)
The concern with Amsoil and Redline in a direct injection engine is the sulfated ash levels.
The sulfated ash level for DI 0w40 is .72. Whether this helps reduce intake valve deposits is not clear.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
