Don't Buy a Porsche?

I've just read an article in January's PP which was submitted by R11 and gave details of a technical presentation that they had at one of their monthly meetings, I won't go into detail as you can easily find it in the "Regions" section, but basically the author is saying not to buy a 996 or 997 Gen1 as they WILL suffer an engine failure in the region of 75k miles, either bore scoring or IMS failure [ ], as we know there is a possibility of a "class action" in USA - I've sent the article to Porsche GB and await their reply with interest!

Hi Geoff - I have managed to misplace my PP - who was the presentation by?

Geoff, looks like it will be doom & gloom in 2034 then[ ]

The presentation was by a club member who had experienced this failure.

Hi Chris The presentation was by Simon Harris for R11 (Essex)

Doesn't make a lot of sense when the majority of 996 cars out there have now done more than 75k ???. The numbers don't add up, yes we all know there are engine failures but I also know machines do break. Or am I just seeing rolling shells?

Thanks - curious why the inference is that ALL of that series of engines WILL suffer the mentioned failures?.

All engines will fail at some stage, that can't be too controversial - it might take a million miles or maybe even more but physics takes over in the end! The class action in the USA has been and gone. Porsche took an economic view and compromised it without admissions IIRC. If there is ever one in the UK, I still have all my receipts...

I agree, we all have read that these faults can occur, but not for everyone, hopefully driving style may play a part - I go very carefully on track days [ ] I was surprised that such a sweeping statement would make it into print as that sort of scaremongering does not help residuals, the only problem that I have is that the car is faster than the driver [&o] I have had a reply back from Porsche GB and they say that they have read the article and they say "Porsche do not agree with the article in that there is an inherent defect; as many 996 and 997 Gen 1 vehicles have not suffered these problems" - I can sleep easily now [ ]

Hmm... My Carrera coupe 2002 facelift Lapis Blue was fine at 28000 miles. Unfortunately, by 38000 miles it had a new engine. My IMS self destructed. There is lots of considered advice on the Hartech website and some potential pre-emptive measures you can take these days. I was unlucky for sure and at the time (2008) I was the first person on the PCGB 996 forum to suffer this problem. My car came from a good home and had full Porsche service history but I am sure statistically that for every 1 that breaks 40 or so are probably ok. The 2002 cars do fall within the window of dates of cars that Porsche settled with in the American class action.

I think that answers it all ,Rob-nothing to do with luck[ ]

If the red line needed to be lower, they should have painted the rev counter differently!

I think it's very rare above 70k odd miles. Also, no point replacing the engine with one without the mod, which some people seem to do.

What's a rev limiter for [ ]

Interesting how it never seems mentioned much that the 3.4 is less prone to failure as even the engine numbers on the list in USA class action supported the statement.

I looked after my 2001 996 C4 fastidiously from new - extra oil changes and never trashed - at around 30,000 miles the IMS went and it needed a new engine. Porsche were not interested in helping. I now have a 996TT as I believe they are pretty much bullet proof. I would not buy a non-turbo 996 or a Gen 1 997. My friend who has a Gen 1 Cayman (2005) also had an IMS failure. Luckily he was still covered by a Porsche Warranty and they replaced the engine.

Ah, that's it then - we are all doomed. ........[8D]

At what mileage did the Cayman engine let go?

So, the advice is "my Porsche engine broke when driven carefully, therefore 100% of Porsche engines WILL fail if driven carefully"? Of course not: some will fail and some won't. You weren't saying that, and I also don't read the comments in the Essex Region column as the OP does. The comment that "the author is saying not to buy a 996 or 997 Gen1 as they WILL suffer an engine failure in the region of 75k miles, either bore scoring or IMS failure", is just plain wrong. It's like saying all human hearts will fail at one set age: they all will stop one day, but most will go on for a good number of years regardless of the unfortunate early failures. Trying to find an average failure point only creates a false perception for those either side of it. The article in Essex region's PP column should be taken as written. It does say that around 6% of engines suffer the failures from the known weaknesses, so please relax and don't lose too much sleep! [8|]

Unless you are lucky enough to be in the 6%... Worst surprise of all is that once you give the OPC the go ahead for a replacement motor they can fit it in a couple of hours and then you get a 5 figure bill to pay before you can take your car away.

Is that 6% substantiated Paul?

Well I know it don't reference to most of us, But if you have just bought a 996 and your reading this thread "DON'T PANIC, DON'T COMPLAIN, BUT DO ENJOY!" Because you just bought an £80k sports car for peanuts because of some bad press for a Minuscule amount of engine failures. Without that bad press you can expect to have payed two to three times the prices of todays market. [X(] Engage ignition/ drive

I think it would be naive to wholly ignore the risk. As for suggesting that a 10 year old 996 would be worth c£45k without the issue, I'm afraid I can't agree with you there - you can get an 11000 mile approve used Aston Martin DB9 for that or a brand new stock Boxster S - the price of used 996s simply reflects the market. Most people have no idea about the potential engine issues - I didn't until mine self destructed and I'd owned it 18 months and was a member here!!

I agree Rob in that the risk should not be ignored. There are a few things that are now known that can be done to minimise the occurrence and of course it would be sensible to do these if they have not already been done. I personally think it is remiss to state categorically that the failures mentioned WILL occur and an editorial own goal as a club publication to commit that to print. Others may not agree

The big problem is that in general,Porsches had a reputation for longevity down through the ownership stratas without huge costs to the owner when the cars are relatively young & still familiar within the newer products range-the 996 saga destroys that position for the budget driver who is entitled to want to enjoy a super sports car he can enjoy--after all-10k for the car is great but another 7-10k when the engine goes pop is unsustainable. In my view,given the seeming quantity of crawling around Porsche the club gets engaged in,& the no of members ,the club should have been able to influence Porsche's attitude to this problem.

No idea, it's not my figure. According to the PP article it's the number quoted in the US class action, so can't be too far out, I guess? I agree that it's badly written in the Essex write-up. What it says is "some experts say all these engines will experience IMS failure at some point in their life cycle". I think "all", and "some experts", needs clarification. I'd read Hartech's guides, and Baz is probably the best expert to ask for an accurate percentage of failures. Of course, if it's your engine that lets go out of warranty, you won't care about the percentages!

I thought the chances were 1% for 3.4's and 5% for 3.6ers.

If I owned an at risk model with mileage below 70k I would get the IMS mod fitted. I was quoted £1500 for this by my local indy but he more or less told me not to bother as my car has done 88k.

Having read the Hartech guides it sounds like the originator of the report has done the same then put two and two together and come up with 5.

? Rob where did you get £45k from 3x £9k = 27k Or are you saying you want to give me £15k for my 10 year old 996 ??? if so its a done deal LOL.

2004 model is worth £15k all day long! C4Ss are still £20k aren't they for a good one? Future classic for sure [ ]

C4s is the iceing on the cake, and nobody would have an issue or question it, is a different beast. But the 996 is still a cracking car for budget money, I don't really no why anyone who got one at todays prices would worry or complain about what is a well known over hyped issue. Whether it be a higher risk but newer and higher priced face lift model or a gen1 The only people with a right to complain are those like yourself that suffered from Engine failure when the car was still a baby but to not buy one now because of a possible risk is ludicrous. So it could cost six grand to fix, well thats about one years deprecation value in the life of a 996? so if you've owned your 911 10 years you've lost six times that plus running costs now that something to moan about. Those that are looking to buy or just bought have been given a race Horse for the price of a Donkey.

That's the power of the internet - I may come on here moaning about what happened to me but you don't then get 20 people posting back saying that their car is just fine. I have never seen my old car again since the day I picked up its replacement but if I ever saw it advertised I'd need to go and see it to satisfy my curiosity - I would love to have it back in the garage alongside the Spyder - they are truly amazing cars for the money now.

I just wish there had been a court case for broken indicator stalks? "Did they make them out of liquorice?" I have never broke an indicator stalk on any car I have ever owned but have broke two on this!.

Some people were unhappy though.. http://www.ferdinandmagazine.com/gunfight-996-porsche-engine-failure-ims

Ouch!! I must admit that all this IMS talk is starting to make me paranoid!

Does the Gen 2 997 suffer with these issues?

No, 997.2 non-turbo have a completely new type of engine

Thanks. That's forced me to increase my budget then[8|]

I wanted a 996 n/a but as well as internet reading I spoke to a few good indies and they were definitely making conscious changes to some procedures, both sales and service, because of this problem. One had a 3rd party warranty just to cover these problems, everything else they fixed themselves. Another was making some space allowances in the workshop because of the regularity of the rebuild. It was more than enough for me not to buy one so I bought a turbo instead. Its a shame as my thought process regarding the type of car I needed was spot on and the turbo is a little OTT for daily ish use but I think the na car would have been ideal. Its just my opinion but it did put me off. If I buy another 911 it will be a gen 2 997 na.

Still driving my 98 c2 as intended. Engine and performance good as new at 107,000 miles. All cars have an Achilles heel but as stated earlier, any £70k car new is going to cost even for the simplest replacement parts. I think if paying for it new, then maybe I would be cautious, but as many now go for around £10k, you have a choice. Drive an icon which many of us probably felt we could never afford when young or go for a different car which DOES NOT have the PORSCHE experience. After all, just being on this forum shows that surely we are passionate about a car which we all try to upgrade if the money becomes available. The turbo still awaits!

Me too!

Owned my 98 C2 Cab for 9 years and took mileage up from 50 K to 80 k. Car has been excellent but all the stories plus a niggling little top end ticking sound convinced me I had piston slap and the end was nigh! So, booked her into Hartech and told them...fix whatever needs fixing. Turned out the ticking was caused by a loose spark plug. Bores etc are fine. Had clutch and RMS changed. Both serviceable. All other bogies like air/oil separator attended too as well. But essentially, the engine was fine and I paid 6K for peace of mind and a 4 page report by Hartech which may, just may support a reasonable price when I sell the car. Which is now my plan. PM me if interested!

Full details on my Cab are here: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-carrera-996/porsche-911-996-cabriolet-c2-manual-full-hartech-preparation-1998/2125729?isexperiment=true Thanks.

Early 996 do have engine issues as do the later 996 apart from the Turbo / Gt3 etc as they use a different block , I had a 997 GT3RS - Porsche Leeds rebuilt the engine twice only due to they could not get the RMS to seal properly , thankfully the second time they built it they resolved the problem

Just been out to the Garage and mine to my amazement hadn't imploded into a blubering mess of PTFE RMS sprinkled with IMS bearing. Turned the key and mine still works. Please help Is something wrong with my 996?.

Is it a turbo or gt?[ ]

There's a pretty good article on the issue here from as far back as July06 - Total 911 magazine. http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf Of course, I'm hoping I'm one of the 95% who won't have a problem - at 86k miles my 98 Carrera 2 runs sweetly (doesn't always start too well, but that's another story.......). As always the horror stories make for the interesting reading, satisfied customers, the silent majority I suspect. There always seems to be a model in any heritage chain that draws the flack - personally I always liked the 996 (I even like the headlights!), but my pal who has worked as an OPC mechanic tells me more horror stories about 964's than anything else (so stone me for committing sacrilege) - I'd still like one though, and when you plump for any marque/model, do your homework, go in with your eyes open. Years ago I was in another car club (no names) and we used to say that the definition of an optimist was someone who believed they could afford to run a second hand Aston Martin............ But, plenty still out there looking good! Don't buy a Porsche? Don't think so!

Just imagine if we had bought a Lotus [ ] Splitting my sides at the thought. As for the Headlight theres this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLe4ZMYaM8s And then there this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5HfxTDQVYQ Not much of a decision.

Before i purchased my 996T I had done a lot of research (6+ years, but not by any means an expert!) into the 996 and earlier 997 engine foibles. I'd owned Jap cars before the 996T and they were (by and large) bullet proof in the engine department. The one article i did read (on a US forum so may be cobblers) was the price differential between the Mezger 996 Turbo/GT2/GT3 engine and the M96/M97 engines in the other 996s. The Mezger cost a staggering $50,000 to buy, whereas the M96 engine cost $28,000. Clearly, Porsche either cut corners with the M96 design, or it was genuinely a big leap away from the Mezger designed block and made it's cost savings through clever engineering/mass production of parts etc. The M96/M97 engines do have a flaw with the IMS/bore score and D-Chunk issues. But they are reletively rare (less than 5%, probabaly quite a lot lower). In all honesty if i owned an M96 engined car i would just be making sure i warmed it up/down properly, changed the oil and filter every 4,000 miles, and kept an eye on coolant levels. I rather suspect that 12k mile service intervals for the 996s don't help. My old and leggy Nissan 200sx ran to 152,000 miles before i sold her in 2008. Original engine. Original turbo. Oil changed every 4k. No issues what-so-ever. How much does a good Indy charge for an oil+filter change? £150? Less? It's peace-of-mind if you ask me. Do any oils actually last 12k miles before they break-down and become less than perfect?

Hi all, From what I'm reading it sounds beneficial to buy a higher mileage car? Say above the 75kish mentioned. Thanks in advance Mark

Hi all, From what I'm reading it sounds beneficial to buy a higher mileage car? Say above the 75kish mentioned. Thanks in advance Mark

Bradders, I think you just have to drive a few. That will soon sort out the wheat from the chaff. Erm, they really are rather great when everything is working as it should. Took mine out at the weekend after its SORN snooze and, well, I've decided to keep her! The flat six howl through a Dansk at 7,000 rpm is intoxicating! A very nice chap called Charles came to look at her. We did not make a deal as he was going to be looking at others. But at least he has the knowledge of my car as a yardstick to measure others against. Good luck with your hunt Charles.