What does the market for really exciting classics look like? - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Even if they can't be driven ??? In example .... https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/2011-porsche-gt...

Holy moly! Better than holding currenecy I expect as inflation and depreciation proof due to limited production. Just look at the sale price wow.

uff that is a lot of money - it is rare, but not that rare next up - the 1m USD 996 RS once they can be imported to the US

4.0’s have been going for massive money in the U.S., I saw a comment that a PTS car had gone for more than double that. No idea if true. Need to be U.S. spec to get that money.

USA is a huge market and there's a finite supply of US specced 4.0 RS. In terms of, for example, Google advertising budgets, compared to UK ads, the size of the US market as a whole means at least 10x on spend. So it doesn't really surprise me that, given UK prices, these are where they are.

I don’t think this is strange at all. The 4.0 is a unique car and the fact that only 600 were built acts to the desirability. Enough built to make a market and also a car that delivers on all important points. I believe Europe will follow the US in terms of value.

hornbaek said: I don t think this is strange at all. The 4.0 is a unique car and the fact that only 600 were built acts to the desirability. Enough built to make a market and also a car that delivers on all important points. I believe Europe will follow the US in terms of value. I hope Europe doesn't follow because it means the 996 and 997 cars will push up to a price where they're less 'easy' to enjoy, especially on track. Already there's very few cars for sale - just check classifieds on here - but we're not yet at the prices you see in the USA: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/vehicles/porsch...

ChrisW. said: Even if they can't be driven ??? In example .... https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/2011-porsche-gt... I see your $1Million and raise you $1.7Million https://www.elferspot.com/en/car/porsche-997-gt3-r...

That is insane

I would like to raise you one but this has a POA on it - https://hendonwaymotors.co.uk/listing/porsche-997-...

hornbaek said: I don t think this is strange at all. The 4.0 is a unique car and the fact that only 600 were built acts to the desirability. Enough built to make a market and also a car that delivers on all important points. I believe Europe will follow the US in terms of value. The 4.0 is only truly unique because of the numbered plaque on the dash. The whole 'desirability' thing for a hell of a lot of cars is imo vastly overplayed and built on sand and has has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the car itself outside of perceived 'rarity' for years. The 4.0 is a good car but it's in no way that much better than any other 997 gt3 apart from having said part number that says XXX/600. That said, buyers having a combination of itchy fingers with too much money and fomo has clearly resulted in a self fulfilling prophecy as well so it might continue a while yet I suppose. The tulip craze did too for a bit after all.

I understand where you are coming from. But think of one thing. What has actually improved since the days of the 997 generation of cars. More horsepower yes and more electronics but if you peel the onion you will see that the 997 gen was probably the pinnacle of Porsche. If you then look at value then you can easily spend 300k on a sports car today which in no way gives you the thrills of driving a 997. Modern cars have functions and features that for everyday driving are completely irrelevant. I agree that the difference between the 997 GT3 RS 3.8 and 4.0 is marginal - but it’s there and that was the reason for it being the last Mezger derived 997.

hornbaek said: I understand where you are coming from. But think of one thing. What has actually improved since the days of the 997 generation of cars. More horsepower yes and more electronics but if you peel the onion you will see that the 997 gen was probably the pinnacle of Porsche. If you then look at value then you can easily spend 300k on a sports car today which in no way gives you the thrills of driving a 997. Modern cars have functions and features that for everyday driving are completely irrelevant. I agree that the difference between the 997 GT3 RS 3.8 and 4.0 is marginal - but it s there and that was the reason for it being the last Mezger derived 997. I fully agree with all of that - but it is mighty leap from the above to 7 digits / the equivalent of the value of a Carrera GT, which is not as rare, but not exactly mass produced either...

If it is purely the low numbers and specialness of a car, what is the value of a low mileage perfect history 996.1 GT3 Clubsport ?? There are far fewer than 997 GT3RS 4.0L and it's debatable whether the 997 is the last .... but the 996.1 GT3 Clubsport is definitely the first that started it all .... ??

4.0 cans till be had for £250k in europe, is it worth picking one up considering whats happening in the USofA?

£120k I guess for a 996.1 CS. And more when you can now take these to the USA to sell. Thing is on the road a 997.2 base car for £35k will give as much joy as any car today. Old GT cars on track are now slow, add to that they are not great road cars either due to the long gearing and old shocks tech very few buyers out there these days for older GT cars unless you collect Mint RS models. My mate had a 600 mile 3.8 997.2 RS as an example, value was in the miles so he never drove it so just took an offer on it. A modern buyer wants to track a car and looks at a 997 GT3 for £120k vs a 4RS or a 991.2 GT3 and buys the 2 later cars when push comes to shove. with all these cars + GT4's and Spyders etc there are too many cars now for the buyers and I would say the 996 and 997's sit very low down the modern want list.

hornbaek said: I understand where you are coming from. But think of one thing. What has actually improved since the days of the 997 generation of cars . More horsepower yes and more electronics but if you peel the onion you will see that the 997 gen was probably the pinnacle of Porsche. If you then look at value then you can easily spend 300k on a sports car today which in no way gives you the thrills of driving a 997. Modern cars have functions and features that for everyday driving are completely irrelevant. I agree that the difference between the 997 GT3 RS 3.8 and 4.0 is marginal - but it s there and that was the reason for it being the last Mezger derived 997. well....wrt to the above bit- isn't that really more a function of age that one might have started driving performance cars though which determines whether or not one considers that cars may or may not have 'improved' since the 997 gt3 gen? It's mainly going to be cranky old gits of my age (perhaps not you!) who have a weird hangup about the analogue feel of cars who might prefer the 997 to something more advanced. And even so, let's face it, the 997 isn't what anyone in the right mind would ever call a truly analogue car either, and it certainly is not compared to one of the air cooled cars of yore. While I personally clearly do not agree, I can also quite easily understand why someone else might prefer the (much) more modern feel and easy access of performance of something like a 991.2 gt3 or a 992 gt3. certainly if I were 20 years younger first stepping for the first time into something of that kind of performance, tbh I am by no means convinced I'd not think that the older cars are just fossils. and again, if that 'driving' thing about the mezger gt3s was indeed the primary driver of desirability, it would be across all of them to a much greater degree. 996s as well as 997s there should probably be a good argument that the 6rs would/should be ranked on par as the 4.0. the latter is the outlier of mezger gt3s and that simply wouldn't be on anything like the same scale without that limited edition rarity factor. as can be seen that the list price differential between the 4.0 and 3.8 has now gone loopy (imo it was a reasonably fair reflection of the improvements the 4.0 had which was.... about €185k vs €160k for the 3.8rs iirc) P.S edit as somehow it didn't feel through when i tried to correct a mistake. Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 3rd June 12:03

Well, watch this space... I have a PEC day in a few weeks, driving a 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and a 991.2 GT3 RS, plus one other modern GT TBC. I have done it mostly for curiosity, to see the comparison back to my 997.1 GT3 clubsport, although in principle, I am not totally against thinking about a swap. However, II'm not going into this entirely green as I've done quite a few pax laps in modern stuff, 991.2 GT3 RS Weissach, 991.2 GT3 RS MR (Tim Harvery, in his own car at Donington), 718 GT4 RS, so I have a pretty reasonable 'feel' of what they involve. Mostly, it's a s t load more power and grip. Some of the latter is from tyres and some is aero. They do feel a lot different. I do know if they are for me, but I know they are truly great cars. As, of course, are the 996 GT cars.

I think when looking at future collectible cars a big thing will increasingly be the maintenance and service costs to keep these cars ready to hit the road. The 997 is still quite analog and service costs are manageable. Looking at Carrera GT you’re looking into some huge costs associated with keeping that otherwise fabulous car on the road. Not to speak about Veyron or F1.

Digga said: Well, watch this space... I have a PEC day in a few weeks, driving a 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and a 991.2 GT3 RS, plus one other modern GT TBC. I have done it mostly for curiosity, to see the comparison back to my 997.1 GT3 clubsport, although in principle, I am not totally against thinking about a swa. I’ve often thought about doing this. I’d love to drive a 911 R alongside a 997.2 RS…would like to drive both for different reasons.

Cheib said: Digga said: Well, watch this space... I have a PEC day in a few weeks, driving a 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and a 991.2 GT3 RS, plus one other modern GT TBC. I have done it mostly for curiosity, to see the comparison back to my 997.1 GT3 clubsport, although in principle, I am not totally against thinking about a swa. I ve often thought about doing this. I d love to drive a 911 R alongside a 997.2 RS would like to drive both for different reasons. Be interesting to see yours and digga thoughts on the 997,i had one for 10 years,factory collection,i found the car uninspiring,wanted to bounce off the road at speed,and very poor steering feedback,felt like driving with two pairs of gloves on,sounded good enough.The prices for 4.0ltr is truly bonkers and just makes the 3.8 the best buy,600 is not what you would call rare bar a percentage of the big numbers built. It seems the Americans are on fire with some cars,but just because one american is willing to pay crazy money all be it for a very low mileage specimen,it does not mean the rest are worth crazy money either.The 993 gt2 has just experienced similar,but now quite a few for sale at overpriced asks.

Yellow491 said: Cheib said: Digga said: Well, watch this space... I have a PEC day in a few weeks, driving a 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and a 991.2 GT3 RS, plus one other modern GT TBC. I have done it mostly for curiosity, to see the comparison back to my 997.1 GT3 clubsport, although in principle, I am not totally against thinking about a swa. I ve often thought about doing this. I d love to drive a 911 R alongside a 997.2 RS would like to drive both for different reasons. Be interesting to see yours and digga thoughts on the 997,i had one for 10 years,factory collection,i found the car uninspiring,wanted to bounce off the road at speed,and very poor steering feedback,felt like driving with two pairs of gloves on,sounded good enough.The prices for 4.0ltr is truly bonkers and just makes the 3.8 the best buy,600 is not what you would call rare bar a percentage of the big numbers built. It seems the Americans are on fire with some cars,but just because one american is willing to pay crazy money all be it for a very low mileage specimen,it does not mean the rest are worth crazy money either.The 993 gt2 has just experienced similar,but now quite a few for sale at overpriced asks. Another 'non-fan' of the 997 3.8 RS. We should start a Non-Fan Club

993rsr said: Yellow491 said: Cheib said: Digga said: Well, watch this space... I have a PEC day in a few weeks, driving a 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and a 991.2 GT3 RS, plus one other modern GT TBC. I have done it mostly for curiosity, to see the comparison back to my 997.1 GT3 clubsport, although in principle, I am not totally against thinking about a swa. I ve often thought about doing this. I d love to drive a 911 R alongside a 997.2 RS would like to drive both for different reasons. Be interesting to see yours and digga thoughts on the 997,i had one for 10 years,factory collection,i found the car uninspiring,wanted to bounce off the road at speed,and very poor steering feedback,felt like driving with two pairs of gloves on,sounded good enough.The prices for 4.0ltr is truly bonkers and just makes the 3.8 the best buy,600 is not what you would call rare bar a percentage of the big numbers built. It seems the Americans are on fire with some cars,but just because one american is willing to pay crazy money all be it for a very low mileage specimen,it does not mean the rest are worth crazy money either.The 993 gt2 has just experienced similar,but now quite a few for sale at overpriced asks. Another 'non-fan' of the 997 3.8 RS. We should start a Non-Fan Club Digga and Cheib may want to join us

I am a big fan of the 3.8 RS, but am about to trade mine in for an Italian car (I can't afford to have both). My issue is that I hardly drive the car nowadays and when I drive it, then it is usually just relatively pointless Autobahn mileage ....

Yellow491 said: Digga and Cheib may want to join us I’d like to see what all the fuss is about either way !

993rsr said: Yellow491 said: Cheib said: Digga said: Well, watch this space... I have a PEC day in a few weeks, driving a 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and a 991.2 GT3 RS, plus one other modern GT TBC. I have done it mostly for curiosity, to see the comparison back to my 997.1 GT3 clubsport, although in principle, I am not totally against thinking about a swa. I ve often thought about doing this. I d love to drive a 911 R alongside a 997.2 RS would like to drive both for different reasons. Be interesting to see yours and digga thoughts on the 997,i had one for 10 years,factory collection,i found the car uninspiring,wanted to bounce off the road at speed,and very poor steering feedback,felt like driving with two pairs of gloves on,sounded good enough.The prices for 4.0ltr is truly bonkers and just makes the 3.8 the best buy,600 is not what you would call rare bar a percentage of the big numbers built. It seems the Americans are on fire with some cars,but just because one american is willing to pay crazy money all be it for a very low mileage specimen,it does not mean the rest are worth crazy money either.The 993 gt2 has just experienced similar,but now quite a few for sale at overpriced asks. Another 'non-fan' of the 997 3.8 RS. We should start a Non-Fan Club So long as you will create your own Fan Club car for us to share

Cheib said: Yellow491 said: Digga and Cheib may want to join us I d like to see what all the fuss is about either way ! Exactly. It's one thing making the jump to actually buying a car, but another to having a quick spin. PEC circuits are good for seeing how things work at lower speeds. It's completely obvious the mechanical and aero grip of the newer cars is going to be way in excess of a 997.1 in any case. But the chassis feel and feedback in 2nd and 3rd gear stuff is a different matter. Third car for my morning is confirmed as 718 Gt4 RS MR. Pax laps in a 718 GT4 RS have been fascinating. The gears shift so seamlessly, where in the manual you're braking and heel-toe, on the PDK you can even hook in a second downshift in the trail braking, without the car making the slightest lurch or dive. You can also take huge liberties on corner entry.

Yellow491 said: Be interesting to see yours and digga thoughts on the 997,i had one for 10 years,factory collection,i found the car uninspiring,wanted to bounce off the road at speed,and very poor steering feedback,felt like driving with two pairs of gloves on,sounded good enough.The prices for 4.0ltr is truly bonkers and just makes the 3.8 the best buy,600 is not what you would call rare bar a percentage of the big numbers built. . Time changes a lot of things regarding cars, look at all the resto mods and people pay 1 to 3 mil for one to have an old car with modern tech ! even look at the CGT a car transformed by the Supersport tyre. Have you driven a 3.8RS with modern passive shocks, modern tyres and a road geo ? it's not the same car as a PASM car on PS2's or org cup 1's with a track geo.

Digga said: Exactly. It's one thing making the jump to actually buying a car, but another to having a quick spin. PEC circuits are good for seeing how things work at lower speeds. It's completely obvious the mechanical and aero grip of the newer cars is going to be way in excess of a 997.1 in any case. But the chassis feel and feedback in 2nd and 3rd gear stuff is a different matter. Third car for my morning is confirmed as 718 Gt4 RS MR. Pax laps in a 718 GT4 RS have been fascinating. The gears shift so seamlessly, where in the manual you're braking and heel-toe, on the PDK you can even hook in a second downshift in the trail braking, without the car making the slightest lurch or dive. You can also take huge liberties on corner entry. Shame you are not driving a 992 GT car. the 3 you are all have the same front end parts. so different but the same so to speak. A 992 front end would on track make you lol imho. Put it this way all nice cars to test on a fun day out, but I would not buy any of them. (ok I did buy one of them it was a dog and was soon sold on) :-)

911stWP said: Shame you are not driving a 992 GT car. the 3 you are all have the same front end parts. so different but the same so to speak. A 992 front end would on track make you lol imho. Put it this way all nice cars to test on a fun day out, but I would not buy any of them. (ok I did buy one of them it was a dog and was soon sold on) :-) ISWYM about the 992. It's not entirely been discounted from considerations. Default option may be a re-fresh on the Mezger.

I think when looking at future collectible cars a big thing will increasingly be the maintenance and service costs to keep these cars ready to hit the road. The 997 is still quite analog and service costs are manageable. Looking at Carrera GT you’re looking into some huge costs associated with keeping that otherwise fabulous car on the road. Not to speak about Veyron or F1.

The issue with the 996/7 platform though, is that some of the parts particularly the motorsport parts - say Cup differential components for example - are either scarce or no longer made by/for the OEM. So although the Mezger is generally very reliable and an extremely well known entity, it's getting a little trickier each year. I guess though, as you say, the flip side for the DFI engines is that they're a good deal more complex and the PDK 'boxes too, but they've not been around for the same amount of time, or in the same numbers, for the specialist service guys to assimilate them quite as well. Yes, Carrera GT, you are into another stratosphere and tied to the OEM or OEM-backed network.

it's like a reload of the matrix.... deja vu.....

isaldiri said: it's like a reload of the matrix.... deja vu..... More Groundhog Day than Matrix.