Air Cooled Porsche Market

Watching Chasing Classic Cars yesterday, Wayne Carini mentioned he had sold a 356 based Speedster for over $300,000. Then, on the live Mecum Auction (I think Austin Tx) all the air-cooled 911s were selling for stratospheric prices. Given the money these cars are bringing, they could not possibly be used as daily drivers. So what that tells me is that our 996s and 997s will hold their value as Porsche enthusiasts rediscover them.

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Why not? Plenty of people daily drive new S-class mercedes that sell for $110k, so why can't you drive a $40k SC, $50k 964, or $70k 993 daily?

At the prices you've listed certainly could be driven daily. But what I've seen are double or triple the numbers you've listed. At those values, they will not be daily drivers.

Oliver - Do you drive your 993tt as a daily?

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$80k SCs, $100k 964s and $140k 993s are very very few and far between. Nah, I use the 7tt as a daily. No reason I couldn't use the 3tt, but i only drive a mile to the train station

There's a '94 cabriolet listed in today's Seattle Times (under 20k miles) for $225k. Canepa (N. Ca) has several air cooled cars listed for well over $100k. Clearly these are asking prices.

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Because if somebody T-bones your S Class you simply go to the Mercedes dealer and pick out a new one. Replacing the 964 that took you six months to find (along with the PPI and other potential buyers wanting to buy the same car) won't be nearly as easy. See the WTB ads for air cooled cars. I drive my 993 to work often but I realize if it gets totaled or stolen that will probably be it for 993s and me.

Well, for one thing production numbers for the 911 jump significantly with the introduction of the 996. Supply and demand is pretty simple, all other arguments about the 996 aside. Prices may stabilize, and good, lower mileage cars will find buyers at fair prices, but the crazy numbers for some aircooled cars will most likely not happen for the post-1998 cars.

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Lol, Good Luck with that

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understood. the op was talking about the value of the cars, not the difficulty of finding another. That said, if you have enough money, you can always find a nice 964 or 993.

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Lol Oliver

It's possible to find a nice-looking late-80s G50 cab or targa in the $30K range, a bit more for a coupe. It'll have over 100K on the clock, but there's no reason it couldn't be at least as reliable a DD as a low-mileage 996/997, because the major issues plaguing the M96 can occur at fairly low mileage if they occur at all. I think the appeal of a 996 or 997 as a DD is less about economics than creature comforts.

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This makes sense. My SC and 993 experiences did not relate well to everyday driving as "useful" transportation like my 996 does. The damp mist that passes for a/c is lacking, and there will usually be the scent of oil present, from leaking and burning off or otherwise. Lots of other factors make them a little less practical for everyday use. They are certainly an excellent motoring experience, but not as good for a heavy traffic commute for lots of reasons. In no way am I bashing the air-cooled cars, it's just a different deal. I love to drive my '74 Trans Am regularly, but the cammed up 400 and no a/c is not much fun in downtown Nashville traffic in July. Our S class AMG is much better suited to that situation. In my own experience and opinion, of course.

Caveat: I love my 996. It's my favorite car, ever. Hands down. Porsche made a sh*t ton of 996's, and they scurried away from the "mistake" of non-911 headlights and a couple of other styling choices that, to many, puts the 996 in a "it's a 911, but not exactly a real 911" category that includes at least one other car I can think of...the 912. The 912 has been appreciating for the last couple of years, a halo effect as all "real" 911's continue to price themselves out of reach for many people. While I am in no way impugning the 996 as a properly good sports car, how many articles come through here repeating the same hackneyed slogans that the 996 is the perfect starter 911 / the perfect "first" 911 / the most underestimated Porsche ever? I lost count a year or so ago. The 912 was THE car for the "I can't afford an early 911, but I'll take one of those cars that 99%-of-the-people-on-the-street-will-think-is-a-911 anyway" crowd. The 996, similarly, is the "it's just as good...and I don't believe anyone else knows the difference" choice. Only when the 911's that bracket the 996 on both ends - meaning both the preceding air-cooled cars and the 997's and 991's that followed - finally price themselves out of reach, the 996 may finally enjoy a halo effect...but it's going to be a long, long time coming. Remember that Porsche made (excluding turbos, GT2's, and GT3's) about 5x more 996's than they did 912's; there are also a LOT of 997's and 991's that need to become valuable until it finally becomes time to include your 996 on your net worth worksheets... For the record, I'm not badmouthing the 996 or suggesting that I believe my car is a lemon or something other than a "real" 911. My personal feelings about the car aside, though, the mindset just does not currently exist for the 996 to become a collectible car. I suspect that the models bracketing the 996 on both ends will be the driving force behind the ultimate collectible value of the 996, and not the 996's own qualities. I don't think that's fair - the 996 was a great stride forward in many ways - but life isn't fair, and finance is even less so...

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fair post. Also, 912s are appreciating to some degree because people are using the chassis and sticking a 6 cylinder in there. Those early body 911s are pricey if you can find a good one.

Production numbers are probably the #1 factor. Until the 996, 911's were very low-production cars relatively speaking, and several factors have contributed to taking a bunch off the road. Some were wrecked. Before they got collectible, many were gutted for the track. Rust is a factor on anything from the 80s on back. There are just so many more 996 and 997 cars out there.

70's and 80's Porsche were a dime a dozen for a long time, then one day they were no longer around for cheap. At some point the same will happen to the 996, its gonna be a while but there will come a day when you get to say "I remeber when those things were everywhere for $15-$20K and you could find them with blown engines for under $5K, I should have bought a bunch of them and stashed them somewhere". As for today, I'd suggest not living in a museum and got beat on some 996's

^ Well said.

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i don't think there is any comparison to the air-cooled 356/911 in the future i'd have to say the 996 narrow body will be more like the 928 - never quite making a mark

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Is that you John Ireland?

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No, it's just not cool right now. Wait a few years, a new generation of kids and a build by Magnus and everybody will want a 996. that's how it works...

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This is absolutely correct. The 964 has skyrocketed in value but not for what it is, but instead for what it can become when Singer Vehicle Design gets their hands on one. Singer Vehicle Design simply decided "this is the platform we are going to use for our super delux modified ultimate 911." As soon as their first few cars hit the market 964s when up in value. You would have a difficult time finding a 1993 or 1994 911 for sale anywhere, any where, nation wide for under $50k. I could buy one in 2008 for $25k easy. The same thing will happen with the 996 when someone comes along and starts to customize that platform because of two things: the high production numbers and the currently low cost. The increase in prices will not replicate the 964 increase because the 964 really did have much lower production numbers and it is a numbers game. But...the 996 is the obvious, dare I say, the ONLY affordable 911 option right now. As a result, it will become the target of the younger generation for ownership and modification.

To quote a famous philosopher: Que Sera, Sera Whatever will be, will be The future's not ours, to see Que Sera, Sera What will be, will be Just joking, but you never know, sometimes what was less appreciated becomes more appreciated in time. Another generation that were kids when the 996 came out may say, they were the first true 911 performance car and the look was not only new, but was and remains unique and that's why they want them. Ironically wasn't the 993 over looked and volumes low because everyone was waiting for the new generation of 911's as opposed to the rehashed, refreshed 993? Remember when a slant nose was cool?

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Disagree. The engines are too expensive for this to be a true enthusiast platform. Even if the aftermarket starts producing affordable power-adders (which I also don't see happening), $10K for a used, as-is block is just too damn much money. Modders/tuners/whatever-ers dump money into their cars, but it's a couple hundred bucks at a time. These are not the people who have $8K to drop on a turbo kit, $15K for a rebuilt long-block, etc. To truly become a popular platform, the car needs to be plentiful, affordable, and inexpensive to fix. The 996 meets the first two criteria, but not the third. And now that there are a couple of competing refurbished M96 suppliers, the supply of rebuildable M96 cores will become ever more scarce.

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I have to admit that I had this poster on my wall of the Pioneer Porsche tuned by Gemballa before. Thought it was cool back then. Not so much now. Gemballa, Strosek, Ruf, etc. The good ole days...

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You are assuming that these youngsters will consider the M96 as an option, when they figure out how to pop a Subaru with a turbo in there on the cheap, its game on. All the money for the suburu stuff is in the bolt on parts, the cores are cheap like $600. Right now the little boogers are messing with clapped out Miatas and working their way through junior college, once they land that manager position at pet smart, you can bet your *** a 996 roller will be on the short list On that note what are some other possible cheap solutions for a 996 roller?

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If you looked at the $8k plus Renegade LS adapter kits, everyone knows it can be done a LOT cheaper. Once someone decides to copy or market their own version, LS swaps will probably be the most popular IMO, if the kit itself can be marketed for less than $2k sans drivetrain.

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Galvanzing on the 911 started in 1976 so anything after that holds up pretty good against rust

I think the era of cheap money on Air-ccoled P-cars my be at an end today with rising interest rate hikes, "bubble anyone" asking if the 996 will ever become the go to model of the water-cooled era is a long shot. I think what everyone needs to do is enjoy the car for what it is, " an Amazing 911 we got for cheap when everyone else was finding reasons not to buy one. what's funny this is the same conversation I used to have on the ferrarichat board when I owned my 348 Spider..always when will the price go up?. that car was a financial bloodbath compared to the 911, you have to drop the engine and do belt/waterpump tensioners every 3-5 years and hope nothing else breaks in between belt servicing for the princely sum for 3-5 or 7K depending on wrenching yourself. thats almost like buying a 911 engine rebuild guarantee. happiest day ever was when I saw the 348 going on the trailer to the new owner. No car is cheap, We choose to play with money because Porsche is a fun car, not a daily driver unless your in California and have even deeper pockets or like debt. I'm a car guy and I'll love the Porsche and like I do all my past cars. This will not be my last "retirement reducing" car, I'm only a caretaker for the next corner or flat-out straightaway. All I want from this car is an experience and the joy of taking care of it as I geek out on Raby engine pic's or stories of track days. Reenlist is my wintertime therapy session as my C4S slumbers for the winter

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Next year, the first Boxsters will turn 20. If there was aftermarket interest in swapping different motors in for the M96, someone would be doing it by now. Everyone talks about Renegade Hybrids like they are cranking out 20 LSx-powered 996's a day, but the truth is that it's still rare enough that folks like White Out are doing as much DIY as they are using the "kit" to perform the conversion. There are some guys modding their 986's - check out the Boxster Tech Fan group on Facebook - but anything truly unique getting done runs up against the "purists" who flame endlessly about the sacrilege of defiling a Porsche. A modded STi or Evo is still a capable DD that can haul 3 or 4 drinking buddies and/or a girlfriend/wife with a kid or two. Sure, there are some guys who have show-only cars that can be down for days or weeks at a time, but that's the exception...

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maybe a kid working at McDonalds and modding his beater Civic spends a couple hundred, but there are plenty of 20-something guys pouring 1000's into their cars. When the 996 becomes the cool thing on the block, I really think the money will be spent.

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25 bps and you're calling the end already? please.

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Unless the motor fails in a spectacular way (yes, I know it is rare in the grand scheme of things). But stories of expensive engine rebuilds are keeping the Subie and Civic kids away. You can spend 1000s on your Civic and have everything the way you want it. The same money will just cover the labor on your M96 rebuild. When they finally do have the financial means to move up in the car world they'll look elsewhere (997.2, M4, Lotus, etc).

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wont change the way the 996 na looks

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The 996 na with GT3 look is one of the best looking in my opinion. The lines just work really well for me and when parked next to a 997, the 996 appears bigger to me in a good way. The 997 is just too New Beetle for my taste. The new 991.2 is just about perfect in the looks department for me. That being said the only 996 that will go up in value and are truly collectible will be the GT3s with close to zero miles. That car will be in every good Porsche 911 collection.

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actually, it will change the look. just look at what people have done to the older 911s, like RWB, Magnus Walker, Singer... besides the fact that the MK1 996 looks great already

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True. It looks almost exactly like a 997.

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Yep, you're right and I'm wrong...yet I still see no 996's with Lambo doors, 3 nitrous kits, and clamshell hoods at meets... How could this be?

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Yea, but the 997 has fugly headlights

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Can we make this a thing? I think making this a thing would be fun.

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FIFY. Now it's a thing.

Never liked the 997 headlights...

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That's a 991.1 997 is much smaller.

There was a post recently from a user that was looking to wrap his console in leather. He got a quote of $250 for the leather from a vendor, but later, wasn't sure if the cost included installation. In addition, he was not happy with having to spend $250 on the project and was looking for a cheaper alternative. That was an eye opener for me. It seemed only a short time ago, I was reading posts about complete interior mods that cost $1000's. I spent $2k just for my double din + installation on my 996. Now that the prices of the 996 are so incredibly low, they are affordable for almost anyone, regardless if they have the money to properly maintain or mod their new purchase. It's cyclical. 997.1 prices are where the 996.2 prices were when I bought my 996. If I were in the market for my first Porsche today with the same budget I had in 2011, I would absolutely have bought a 997.1. For the same reason, I don't see the average younger Pcar enthusiast choosing a 993. Too expensive to buy AND maintain...

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you're right! my bad.

When I sold my 986 Boxster S a few years back I decided it was going to be replaced with either a 996.2 C4S or a 993 / 964. Perusing the for sale forums for both showed me the light.......there were not any 993 or 964 "rollers" for sale. Just Sayin...........