Speed limiters n new Porsches? - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I seem to recall a lot of hullabaloo back a couple of years ago about all new cars getting speed limiters fitted by summer 2024. Can anyone update me as to where new Porsches fit into this scenario please?

ISA (Intelligent Speed Assist). It'll be in all newly registered cars from July 2024, including Porsches. Hopefully there will be a physical button to disable it. https://www.here.com/learn/blog/intelligent-speed-...

PITA though every journey, much like stop / start which is hateful too. TX.

I have a new Porsche in build now due in UK early June - hopefully it’s not lumbered with this nanny state bs…. Fingers crossed

How are they going to install this new tech into old platforms though? Are they GPS based or camera based? If GPS, how are they going to keep them up to date?

jackwood said: How are they going to install this new tech into old platforms though? Are they GPS based or camera based? If GPS, how are they going to keep them up to date? Mostly camera. You'd rather out of date GPS than a camera system that makes it up. Mate of mine said, the lorry behind him nearly crashed into.the back of him when his car decided to slow from 70 to 30. The 30 sign that looks like a temp sign in the picture was a permanent one on a pole. And the other wasn't hidden by the hedge.

That’s looks such a pile of s*** as a system. So I take it new cars will have extra front facing cameras fitted to spot signs etc?

The configurator is still showing Lane Keep Assist incl. Speed limit indicator as an option. (£861 please) This is the hardware that allows implementation of ISA. When I ordered my 718 I was careful to deselect the hardware items that would allow ISA. Whilst currently the system will only give warnings, if you have the hardware then the capability exists to hard limit your vehicle.

All this tech like lane assist, etc is just not ready for the real world. I had a recent AMG which I sold as it was constantly trying to pull me off the road around where I live (narrow roads). I replaced it with a 2022 RS4 which thank god has none of this (and real controls mostly not screens).

M11rph said: The configurator is still showing Lane Keep Assist incl. Speed limit indicator as an option. (£861 please) This is the hardware that allows implementation of ISA. When I ordered my 718 I was careful to deselect the hardware items that would allow ISA. Whilst currently the system will only give warnings, if you have the hardware then the capability exists to hard limit your vehicle. Is the hardware installed in every car and you pay £861 for someone to tick the option box in the car software setup?

It uses a camera in the rear view mirror mount. Whether they start fitting them before the July deadline is anyone's guess, but hopefully not. There's a cost to them to fit, but on the other hand what constitutes "delivery" for the July deadline? Is that delivered to the dealer or when a customer takes delivery? If the later then I suspect they would have been fitting the cameras for some months?

M11rph said: The configurator is still showing Lane Keep Assist incl. Speed limit indicator as an option. (£861 please) This is the hardware that allows implementation of ISA. When I ordered my 718 I was careful to deselect the hardware items that would allow ISA. Whilst currently the system will only give warnings, if you have the hardware then the capability exists to hard limit your vehicle. Pretty sure that’s not correct, the speed limit indicator is an option but they have been putting in the black box for ISA since model year 22. I pulled out of a GTS order because of this ISA which was all set up for release in April 2022, however legislation put it back not the manufacturers, so the black box ISA are most probably still being put in. The speed limiter option without this box only shows up the speed limit speed in your instrument panel, this option ticked does not slow down the car it has to be in conjunction with the installed black box. However, agree, better to not to tick it, and I would expect 992.2 configuraron to not have Speed Limit Indicator as an option as it will be mandatory to have it in if these ISA regulations come in this year. When I investigated was told Mercedes have been installing these Black Box ISA since 2020, and Ferrari & Lamborghini were going to wait as long as they could, ie month before the regulations came in. Horrible system! Edited by JJ77 on Saturday 20th April 09:20

JJ77 said: Pretty sure that’s not correct, the speed limit indicator is an option but they have been putting in the black box for ISA since model year 22. I pulled out of a GTS order because of this ISA which was all set up for release in April 2022, however legislation put it back not the manufacturers, so the black box ISA are most probably still being put in. The speed limiter option without this box only shows up the speed limit speed in your instrument panel, this option ticked does not slow down the car it has to be in conjunction with the installed black box. However, agree, better to not to tick it, and I would expect 992.2 configuraron to not have Speed Limit Indicator as an option as it will be mandatory to have it in if these ISA regulations come in this year. When I investigated was told Mercedes have been installing these Black Box ISA since 2020, and Ferrari & Lamborghini were going to wait as long as they could, ie month before the regulations came in. Horrible system! Edited by JJ77 on Saturday 20th April 09:20 I think we are actually in agreement. ISA needs the camera for implementation. The GPS input obviously has been present for over a decade, but without the camera element ISA activation shouldn't be possible even if the processing black box is present.

M11rph said: It uses a camera in the rear view mirror mount. Whether they start fitting them before the July deadline is anyone's guess, but hopefully not. There's a cost to them to fit, but on the other hand what constitutes "delivery" for the July deadline? Is that delivered to the dealer or when a customer takes delivery? If the later then I suspect they would have been fitting the cameras for some months? Sorry to say they have been installing them since model year 2022, for a April 2022 release, legislation delayed that date to this summer, I would be very surprised if the manufacturing process was changed, for such a small box and cost.. but maybe..

I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out

M11rph said: I think we are actually in agreement. ISA needs the camera for implementation. The GPS input obviously has been present for over a decade, but without the camera element ISA activation shouldn't be possible even if the processing black box is present. That’s my understanding.. need both. Also think anyone who has ticked Speed limit indicator on any Porsche before model year 22 has nothing to worry about either.

I had one of the new Cayennes for a while. Lane change assist and speed warning were on ALL the time. You had to turn them off. Speed warning sounds great, but when you are in start stop traffic and you go 28mph, to 31mph, to 29mph, to 31mph it beeps every time. And I think lane change is dangerous, the whole correcting the steering thing is horrendous.

Far Cough said: I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out Yep, but guaranteed insurance companies will find out and null a claim.. another tick to buy the back catalogue analogue cars.

DMC2 said: I had one of the new Cayennes for a while. Lane change assist and speed warning were on ALL the time. You had to turn them off. Speed warning sounds great, but when you are in start stop traffic and you go 28mph, to 31mph, to 29mph, to 31mph it beeps every time. And I think lane change is dangerous, the whole correcting the steering thing is horrendous. I like Lane Change Assist, it's just a blind spot warning, no steering inputs. It uses radar sensors mounted in the rear "bumper". Lane Keep Assist is the one that adds steering inputs to maintain the lane. Absolutely loathe all of these systems. It uses a camera, but I don't know if that is the same one used for traffic sign recognition. Genuinely dangerous imo on country lanes where it'll variously seek the hedge or oncoming traffic. I guess it is one more step towards fully autonomous modes of transport.

Far Cough said: I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out The new cyber security standard comes in at the same time - we don’t know yet to what level but things like ecu modifications, coding in and out won’t be possible unless you have access to manufacturers certificates (digital) keys - expect dealers only to have access. Not sure how back street garages will be able to do work moving forward. I presume at some point they must be allowed access but who knows

Far Cough said: I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out Yes, it can, but i must offer caution on who you employ to do ut fir you, as there's lots of clever software engineers (most of whom can't drive the product) in the industry I work in (truck design and manufacture) desperately trying to make that impossible. Under cover of cyber security, possibly, but they are probably more worried that people who didn't write the coding, fail to realise how it works fully and inadvertently remove something that makes the vehicle safe. I foresee, insurance companies immediately impounding crashed vehicles, and paying the manufacturer to check the software level.

Far Cough said: I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out Hopefully.

Far Cough said: I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out I hope you’re right, but I have a sinking feeling that a lot of this stuff will be beyond the reach of all but the most skilful tuners. My backup option is to just stick some waterproof masking tape over the cameras and radar. You’ll get an error on the dash but at least it’ll kill these dangerous and accident inducing systems.

ISA required on all cars sold from July 2024, so if the hardware is not installed it must be installed before sale. That's what the law summaries say.

This is why I am maintaining a 2004 Subaru Impreza and 2011 Cayman. Both basic analogue cars and one doesn't even have traction control.

M11rph said: I like Lane Change Assist, it's just a blind spot warning, no steering inputs. It uses radar sensors mounted in the rear "bumper". Lane Keep Assist is the one that adds steering inputs to maintain the lane. Absolutely loathe all of these systems. It uses a camera, but I don't know if that is the same one used for traffic sign recognition. Genuinely dangerous imo on country lanes where it'll variously seek the hedge or oncoming traffic. I guess it is one more step towards fully autonomous modes of transport. All designed to fail with human input still being part of the equation so they can say it’ll only work when we have no input at all. Welcome to the future…

M11rph said: DMC2 said: I had one of the new Cayennes for a while. Lane change assist and speed warning were on ALL the time. You had to turn them off. Speed warning sounds great, but when you are in start stop traffic and you go 28mph, to 31mph, to 29mph, to 31mph it beeps every time. And I think lane change is dangerous, the whole correcting the steering thing is horrendous. I like Lane Change Assist, it's just a blind spot warning, no steering inputs. It uses radar sensors mounted in the rear "bumper". Lane Keep Assist is the one that adds steering inputs to maintain the lane. Absolutely loathe all of these systems. It uses a camera, but I don't know if that is the same one used for traffic sign recognition. Genuinely dangerous imo on country lanes where it'll variously seek the hedge or oncoming traffic. I guess it is one more step towards fully autonomous modes of transport. Volvo’s implementation is much less intrusive than that but it was amazing when a Porsche spun and crashed in front of us on a wet dual carriageway. On its own the car tightened the seat belts, brakes very hard whilst simultaneously steering around the spinning Porsche and the larger bits of debris. I have little doubt that I couldn’t have done that. This was a 2020 Volvo. The automatic magic speed limit following thing is annoying though, in our 2023 model you can turn it off and it stays off.

Guybrush said: Far Cough said: I`m sure most of this guff can be coded out Hopefully. I doubt it. Reverse engineering these increasingly complicated vehicle systems is becoming exponentially more difficult. Huge numbers of computers in the car exchanging millions of messages over CAN. ;( Protected ECU firmware, encryption etc etc Maybe analog defeat methods might work. Tape over the camera/sensors etc Unplug them etc?

Or they’ll engage the electric handbrake if the system input isn’t making sense …. My 2018 car did this when I tried to hold the drivers door ajar to line-up my parking in a tight garage !

Just unplug the camera !

Many systems also use GPS to determine the speed limits for the ISA. It can be switched off every time. The issue is that some manufacturers make it easier than others.

if disabled and you are involved in an accident, expect zero insurance cover. '... if your car has a speed limiter, you disable it and you’re involved in an accident caused by excess speed, your insurer might refuse to pay out.'' ...I would say 'might' would be 'will' as any excuse to not pay, they'll explore and take. https://blog.greenflag.com/2022/speed-limiters/#:~... Edited by KittyLitter on Sunday 2nd June 19:31

KittyLitter said: if disabled and you are involved in an accident, expect zero insurance cover. '... if your car has a speed limiter, you disable it and you’re involved in an accident caused by excess speed, your insurer might refuse to pay out.'' ...I would say 'might' would be 'will' as any excuse to not pay, they'll explore and take. https://blog.greenflag.com/2022/speed-limiters/#:~... Edited by KittyLitter on Sunday 2nd June 19:31 This… absolutely no doubt they will exercise the null & void and then the lawyers bills clock starts ticking..

Any update on this for new (post July 2024) Porsches? I've done a search but nothing definitive came up. How have Porsche changed their cars to keep within the new 2024 ISA legislation? Interested as I've put a deposit down for a new 718 (which may or may not be fulfilled, I'll find out in the new year).

We've had a September Registered MY25 Boxster GTS 4.0 and happy to say no isa intact no many aids at all.. it only has stop start which is turned off by moving the steering mode switch to sport or individual and set it off. Still old school..

Fish said: We've had a September Registered MY25 Boxster GTS 4.0 and happy to say no isa intact no many aids at all.. it only has stop start which is turned off by moving the steering mode switch to sport or individual and set it off. Still old school.. Built before July 24? It's mandatory from then so it can't not have it. TX.

Terminator X said: Built before July 24? It's mandatory from then so it can't not have it. TX. It's technically not mandatory for vehicles for the Great Britain market, so it could be this is a manufacturer / dealer deciding to disable it. However I'm not aware of any manufacturers doing this but it would be interesting if the dealer was.

FlabbyMidgets said: Terminator X said: Built before July 24? It's mandatory from then so it can't not have it. TX. It's technically not mandatory for vehicles for the Great Britain market, so it could be this is a manufacturer / dealer deciding to disable it. However I'm not aware of any manufacturers doing this but it would be interesting if the dealer was. Nothing to disable since the 718 has never had ISA. Porsche have stopped selling them in the EU but kept selling them in the UK with no updates for ISA or the new cybersecurity laws

The ISA alert is not too intrusive. You can also use the triangle short cut on the steering wheel to turn it off when you get in the car.

130R said: othing to disable since the 718 has never had ISA. Porsche have stopped selling them in the EU but kept selling them in the UK with no updates for ISA or the new cybersecurity laws Good to know, thanks!

Perfect, many thanks all, that's great news. I had my allocation slot confirmed today too so it's all looking pretty good. My plan is to keep the car for as long as I physically can, so to not have any of the ISA stuff going forward is good. It's a bit more than I want to pay but I'm just being tight and I know I'll regret it down the line if I don't do it.

130R said: FlabbyMidgets said: Terminator X said: Built before July 24? It's mandatory from then so it can't not have it. TX. It's technically not mandatory for vehicles for the Great Britain market, so it could be this is a manufacturer / dealer deciding to disable it. However I'm not aware of any manufacturers doing this but it would be interesting if the dealer was. Nothing to disable since the 718 has never had ISA. Porsche have stopped selling them in the EU but kept selling them in the UK with no updates for ISA or the new cybersecurity laws This is my understanding also having spoken with OPC if I can get an allocation it wont have all this safety malarky , Dont they teach people to drive properly anymore

Yep just to reconfirm there is no lane assist isa hardware in the 718 and happily being sold in uk. EU pulled from sale because didn't meet the cyber security isa etc etc. With the uk not part of eu it isn't a legal requirement. The only thing I have is stop start. Which can be coded out if you want..

Related to the theme in part I test drove a BMW 1300 GSA motorcycle yesterday, and when I got back to the dealer I said to the guy I could only get to 65 miles per hour, and could not find out how to turn off the limiter. Oh he said we set that on the computer remotely from our app, it's going to be a feature of all new motorcycles from next year from BMW, pending the likelihood that maximum speeds will be set on motorcycles via GPS and will not be able to be disabled.

Fish said: Yep just to reconfirm there is no lane assist isa hardware in the 718 and happily being sold in uk. EU pulled from sale because didn't meet the cyber security isa etc etc. With the uk not part of eu it isn't a legal requirement. The only thing I have is stop start. Which can be coded out if you want.. Thanks, that’s good to hear. The fact the current 718 is very old school is a huge part of the appeal for me. Getting one of the last build slots is amazing and I’m planning on keeping this car a very long time!

cliffords said: Related to the theme in part I test drove a BMW 1300 GSA motorcycle yesterday, and when I got back to the dealer I said to the guy I could only get to 65 miles per hour, and could not find out how to turn off the limiter. Oh he said we set that on the computer remotely from our app, it's going to be a feature of all new motorcycles from next year from BMW, pending the likelihood that maximum speeds will be set on motorcycles via GPS and will not be able to be disabled. That will kill off all BMW Motorad dealers in the UK overnight....!! There's already one closing down in the Thames Valley soon.

cliffords said: Related to the theme in part I test drove a BMW 1300 GSA motorcycle yesterday, and when I got back to the dealer I said to the guy I could only get to 65 miles per hour, and could not find out how to turn off the limiter. Oh he said we set that on the computer remotely from our app, it's going to be a feature of all new motorcycles from next year from BMW, pending the likelihood that maximum speeds will be set on motorcycles via GPS and will not be able to be disabled. After owning over 20 BMW bikes over the years, I moved from BMW to Ducati in 2020. If this is the sort of s t they're pulling, I won't be returning anytime soon.

Put tape over rear view mirror mount camera lens?