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YOUR RESEARCH996 Power Mods - Recs Please
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Leading evidence: 'Fill engine' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'when people would spend money' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check bore scoring' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Replace during the installation process, among other action items
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These shops won't cut corners and know they have to follow the directives provided by Jake which includes a thorough list of the components that must be replaced during the installation process, among other action items.
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At the time, track guys also replaced their oem aos with the motorsports aos to better handle the extra 0.5 to 2.0 qts of extra oil.
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It works for me keeping the fuel system clean I run Techron on the last tank before an oil change, every three months I run 2 gallons of 104 octane race fuel.
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It works for me keeping the fuel system clean I run Techron on the last tank before an oil change, every three months I run 2 gallons of 104 octane race fuel.
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Suggestion
It works for me keeping the fuel system clean I run Techron on the last tank before an oil change, every three months I run 2 gallons of 104 octane race fuel.
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Suggestion
Run CRC GDI thru the intake to reduce carbon deposits on piston tops, clean your throttle body and I also use CRC mass air flow sensor cleaner on every oil change.
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Suggestion
While all plastic, rubber and metal parts will wear over time and they will eventually need to be replaced (refresh), there are 4 major issues that a 996 owner should solve for to prevent engine failure.
Replace during the installation process, among other action items
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These shops won't cut corners and know they have to follow the directives provided by Jake which includes a thorough list of the components that must be replaced during the installation process, among other action items.
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Suggestion
It works for me keeping the fuel system clean I run Techron on the last tank before an oil change, every three months I run 2 gallons of 104 octane race fuel.
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when people would spend money
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Suspected cause
I'll add to this that back when we were supplying engines through SSF Auto Parts with the RND program, the only time we had any problem was when people would spend money on an engine and then would cut corners with the installations like installing crap AOSs and used oil coolers (which required us to change the program to include these items), bad dual mass flywheels, or bad injectors, just to give a few examples.
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Hello All,
Still new to the Porsche world. Recently picked up an 04 996 4s and am looking to do some simple bolt on power upgrades. Likely going to do the IPD Intake Plenum, Fabspeed intakes, headers and a tune.
Please provide any recs for best bang for the buck headers as well as any recommended conservative tunes.
Thanks.
Oh boy� here we go again! Cliff notes version: There aren�t many �bolt ons� that give you much bang for the buck with a stock naturally aspirated M96.xx Do some searching/reading and you�ll get the picture. The bottom line is that there just isn�t much more to wring out of this n.a. motor without some major (ie. Expensive) upgrades. Good Luck
Thanks, yeah very familiar with the minimal gains from these n/a engine. More just asking if there's any decent headers w/ good fitment that people would recommend and any reputable tunes.
I know I won't see 100hp gains, but just looking for quality parts that won't break the bank. I'm coming from a long line of M3's so still learning the landscape w/ P cars. All I'll be doing is letting the car breath better and possibly a tune, so curious on recommendations for those items.
Cheers
IMO it�s better to spend money on preventative maintenance than trying to make 10 extra hp.
I won�t post the complete list of everything done to my 996 in the first year of ownership�
BUT I�d suggest you start with new (not rebuilt) OEM fuel injectors, water pump and low temp thermostat.
Haha, of course that�s right after checking for bore scoring from the sump and IMS Solution installation
I recommend Soul performance headers, IPD Plenum, 997 airbox, sport cats (I have FVD but many options), deep sump kit, X51 baffle, GT3 seats, FSI stage II.
OP - As the others have said, there are a couple decent headers. 200 cell cats. You can also check out the Soler tb and 997 air box to go with the better-breathing exhaust side, plus the tune. That�ll net you maybe 20 hp and move the torque curve a bit. That small improvement would help negate the C4S power-to-weight disadvantage vs the C2. That�s a lot of $ per hp. Drop 70 lbs with lighter seats and battery, stock hollow twists, 18� light wheels (think Apex or such). Taller wheels need heavier tires. Unsprung weight is very noticeable with the 996.
Spend your money on the suspension! The stock C4S brakes are really good. Put a good set of coil overs and antiroll bars with a fresh undercarriage to get seriously improved smiles per mile. And, yes, address as many of the engine vulnerabilities you can.
welcome I own an early coupe and as someone suggested here I bought a turbo for my birthday in April last year. I always modified my cars or better yet buy cars that have already been modified. As someone suggested here, lightweight. On the 99, 1. Remove the spare tire. 2. Remove the back seat. 3. Remove the factory exhaust, my car had a fabspeed maxflo exhaust when I got it the factory mufflers are super heavy. 4.Headers, I�m running agency power but previously had souls, could not tell much difference between the two but each agency power header is over 2 lbs lighter than the souls. 5. Fabspeed x pipe no cats, quite a bit of weight reduction but the power and sound is there plus a bit of gasoline smell like in an air cool.6. Run the 997 Carrera s 3.8 litter air box. 7. KN panel filter. 8. My car has a larger ported out throttle, I believe is the FVD one. 9. I do have the the ipd plenum for me it works the car runs better. 10. Apr tune. On the whole exhaust, headers, cross pipes situation be careful because some of the systems drone. It works for me keeping the fuel system clean I run Techron on the last tank before an oil change, every three months I run 2 gallons of 104 octane race fuel. Run CRC GDI thru the intake to reduce carbon deposits on piston tops, clean your throttle body and I also use CRC mass air flow sensor cleaner on every oil change. Find a shop that knows races these cars and tells you what works, the parts have to work together. Buy used if you find the parts, my headers, x pipes and airbox where all used less than half the price. Deal with honest shops as an example yesterday aim performance told me that the performance y pipe on my turbo wasn�t going to do anything but after they knew my cars set up told me to put that money in the ipd bigger plenum and throttle body, they could have sold me a custom y pipe. Good luck and please drive the car as much as possible.
The stock hollow spoke Turbo Twist wheels are about 1 pound heaver than my forged Apex VS5RS wheels, although the Apex wheels are an inch wider. Not much weight loss there.
Assuming you go with headers, cats, mufflers, software, IPD, TB from solid companies, you will spend nearly $9k in parts not counting labor for anywhere between 10-30 hp and ~10-15 tq, say the vendors. Alot of money. Just make sure you have refreshed your engine first by replacing all of the key parts before you spend the money on performance enhancement parts. Last thing you want is a shiny new set of bits and the engine doesn't run. Engine first, exhaust and suspension second.
If you want a recomendation on what company to start with, my recomendation is to go with FVD. They have teamed up with M&M who manufactures the exhaust systems for Porsche Motosports as well as races our engines thru Brombacher in Europe. What this means is they know what they are doing to extract performance in the M96 as well as water cooled naturally aspirated porsche universe.
Not to mention that I have found their components to be durable as he'll. Still using the FVD 200 cell cats and mufflers after 15 years and they are still solid and working perfectly. Yes, I am sure there are other good brands to look at as well.
15 years ago when I put on the FVD exhaust, no exhaust manufacturer had figured out a header design to add any incremental performance improvement. A number of years ago M&M did. My next exhaust upgrade will be the FVD M&M headers once I am finishing refreshing my cooling system and adding the UIDS. One step at a time.
If you are looking for just one exhaust improvement to make for performance, add 200 cell cats to your car. A good set will run you between 2-3k. But to the point of many on this thread. The m96 is naturally aspirated. This means that big gains are very difficult. Small incremental gains can be had, but its expensive.
Make your engine bullet proof first. good luck.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...stability.html
If the thinking is they will solve oil pressure drops on track, there is no data that says they will and a lot that says they wont�t.
It was a solution developed back in the early 2000s used to help mitigate oil starvation that occured on the track. The sumps were originally 0.5 to 0.75 qts and then increased to 2 qts to hold extra oil. At the time, track guys also replaced their oem aos with the motorsports aos to better handle the extra 0.5 to 2.0 qts of extra oil.
Over the last few years, more advanced solutions have been developed such as the UAOS to replace the oem & motorsports aos as well as UIDS which is designed to add another layer of oil starvation mitigation above the deep sump in high G situations on the track. Testing of a new baffle in the UIDS is about to begin.
See UAOS (Ultimate Air Oil Seperator) and UIDS (Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump) threads for more information.
Keep asking questions! The 996 is an awesome car. Would rather have everybody understand it so they can enjoy it. No, they don't solve for bore scoring, they solve for other issues.
Keep in the back of your mind that every car ever produced from every car manufacturer has issues. The good news is the 996 is 20+ years old so we know its issues and have solutions. While all plastic, rubber and metal parts will wear over time and they will eventually need to be replaced (refresh), there are 4 major issues that a 996 owner should solve for to prevent engine failure. See below.
1. Bore Scoring: change your oil at least 2x a year, run fresh spark plugs, ignition coils, fuel injectors; as well as run good fuel coupled with the right start up procedures.
If you havent already done it,
(1) test your oil to see what's in it,
(2) drop your sump to see what's in it,
(3) scope your bores from the sump to see if they are in good shape or not.
2. AOS failure can lead to intermix, oil leaks and hydralock. Hydralock can lead to your cylinders crack from the pressure of oil flooding into top of cylinders d-chunking them. Simple solution is to replace the oem aos which is weak and brittle with a better design such as UAOS.
3. Water Pump failure when the plastic blades kn the fan break off and get lodged in the wrong parts of the system creating excess heat and cracking. Simple solution is to replace the water pump every 5 years or so.
4. IMSB Failure which leads to engine failure from collatetal damage from the bearings. Simple solution is to replace your IMSB witg a LN Retro kit or Solution.
You do these 4 things and your engine will be in great shape. However, if you track your car, you will want to solve for better protection from oil starvation and add more cooling. Hence the discussion on the deep sump, UIDS as well as the UAOS track version.
Plenty of solutions available today that help to mitigate risk. This is why I always say to bullet proof the engine first, then spend money on exhaust, suspension, aero, etc. After.
As a side note, i am a 3.6 owner so I am not familiar with the 5 chain system on the 3.4. There are a few more procedures you may want to consider to mitigate the 5 chain issues that other folks can tell you about.
You dont have to loose any sleep over these issues/solutions. Most important thing is to prevent them and you will have a very durable car that you can drive on the street or track for decades.
the 3.4 even though it has 5 chains has lokasil one coating on piston, skirts, etc. Lokasil one is better than two. The 3.4 tends to score less than the 3.6, that score less than a 3.8. If you have a scored engine there is a 3.6 a available with 20k miles for $12k.
$30k + (depending on extras/options). Their rebuild model has changed and all sales now go through LN Engineering. Jake has totally removed himself from the sales side of the business and only focuses on development and engine building activities.
you need to buy what�s available, they no longer bill the standard stock engines. plus they will only allow their certified installer to put the engine in. Only one installer per state. In the state of Texas which is huge the installer is Mayo performance. So another way because of its uniqueness that they can charge you an arm and a leg for it. Also this is an enticement for the installer to follow whatever protocol Jake and crew came up with. Also the installer can charge you whatever for the install. The whole scheme is to make as much money as possible. Like I said once you start calculating the total cost of doing this plus the cost of the car, it doesn�t makes sense buy a nice well maintained turbo because you originally wanted to go fast because you wanted a bigger displacement engine.
I disagree. I love the turbo, but I want a lighter, better handling narrow body that is naturally aspirated. A rebuild someday in the future makes more sense for my purposes. There is a lid for every pot.
I get it, that's why I didn't sold my early coupe after I got the turbo. the coupe is as light as it can be, everything from the factory works. it runs like a charm no oil consumption, maybe it was rebuilt before I got it, when the time comes I'll get a bigger engine but unless it's a bargain I'm not buying the fsi engine. The two cars are completely different driving experiences and I love both.
Incorrect. The "whole scheme" is to achieve a positive result, using a proven process. If the "whole scheme" was to make as much money as possible, FSI engines would be sold to anyone with a checkbook, to be installed by anyone with a toolbox, and no standards would be required. This is exactly the opposite of the FSI/ LN program, and will never occur.
The whole scheme of one installer is flawed, If you sell me the engine, with the built photos, the dyno graph, etc, why are you telling me where to go have it install. In the Houston Metroplex Area good certified porsche mechanics can charge anywhere from $225/hr labor, to as low as $100/hr. in addition if the mechanic has done the job over and over and its good at it, he will not charge you book time, so i think you could modify your strategy and make the customer sign an affidavit if he wants the engine somewhere else other than their state certified shop. Read what happened to me at Valvoline Instant Oil change when I took my turbo there for an engine oil change. Yes I'm fighting them in small claims courts. Believe me I know where I can take my cars to. That fiasco costed me $5300 plus 3 months without the car. Using my shop is because I have already existing relationships with some shops and I know where I feel good leaving my car overnight, plus I want to manage the overall cost of the project. Sorry I didn't retire at 45 by being wreck less or loose with my money, this is not be meant as a personal attack.
1. Ex employee 2. 1.5 miles from my house. 3. I used to own $100000 worth of stock. 4. My own oil and filter, oil premeasured. 5. Just an oil change, little did I know about that possible mistake for the transmission. I knew where to drain the oil and offered to show the manager, he looked in the computer and went downstairs saying he got it. Anyway, the transmission was opened, fixed by the shop that I would probably used to do an engine install or rebuilt. I just own the stocks of products and services I use. Yes I started in batches selling my Valvoline stock as now they are not going to be anything more than a jiffy lube. Haven�t sold all because Valvoline just got 2.4 billion dollars and they are going to use most to buy back their stock in the next 18 months, so I�ll sell at certain set prices. Finally for gods sake this company paid me to teach all over the world about lubricants, specs, proper maintenance procedures, what a fckng irony.
Once you have determined that you don't have any scoring through bore scoping and/or used oil analysis, there are quite a few things that can be done to help reduce the likelihood of scoring, which I have outlined here:
https://lnengineering.com/products/w...e-scoring.html
I'll add to this that back when we were supplying engines through SSF Auto Parts with the RND program, the only time we had any problem was when people would spend money on an engine and then would cut corners with the installations like installing crap AOSs and used oil coolers (which required us to change the program to include these items), bad dual mass flywheels, or bad injectors, just to give a few examples. Sometimes the shops didn't know any better but other times they were just trying to keep the bill down to get the customer in the door and not lose the job.
The way the new program is set up is using shops that Jake has worked with in the past to do installs of his engines. These shops won't cut corners and know they have to follow the directives provided by Jake which includes a thorough list of the components that must be replaced during the installation process, among other action items. This is all laid out up front so there are no surprises.
What sort of gains were you seeing with M3's? Be honest. I had a Z4MC with the S54 and the fact is that the BMW engineers didn't leave much on the table. Every extra HP had dollar signs, and most of them had tradeoffs. The M96 is a much more tightly packaged lump, in a car that had already been developed for 50 years. There are very few ways to bolt on anything that really matters besides sound.
In my E46 I'd say I was probably making 370 at the crank? That was w/ Eventuri Intake, Catless headers, ESS Tune. I also had recaro's and switched the comp wheels to 18'' arc8's, so ditched a lot of weight there. The remainder of the build if I were to keep the car would've been carbon roof, 3.91 diff and cams.
Between all those items being making power, putting down the power better and simply removing weight, the car could move pretty well.
I don't see those sort of opportunities with the M96. This is by no means me thinking negatively of the platform, just trying to learn more and see if there's much left on the table. Which I'm finding, there isn't really haha
In my E46 I'd say I was probably making 370 at the crank? That was w/ Eventuri Intake, Catless headers, ESS Tune. I also had recaro's and switched the comp wheels to 18'' arc8's, so ditched a lot of weight there. The remainder of the build if I were to keep the car would've been carbon roof, 3.91 diff and cams.
Between all those items being making power, putting down the power better and simply removing weight, the car could move pretty well.
I don't see those sort of opportunities with the M96. This is by no means me thinking negatively of the platform, just trying to learn more and see if there's much left on the table. Which I'm finding, there isn't really haha
Read what happened to me at Valvoline Instant Oil change when I took my turbo there for an engine oil change. Yes I'm fighting them in small claims courts. Believe me I know where I can take my cars to.
lol. apparently not. good grief.
If they were mechanics, they would be making more money than at a quick change oil place.
I could almost go there but I could never get any of them to JUST CHANGE THE OIL and do not touch anything else..
When I almost tossed one of them down into the pit I decided it wasn't worth it.. After they pulled the drain on my transmission.
They thought the oil was "too dirty to run" not knowing it was a special industrial oil I was running to keep the bearings alive with the HP I was running.
Then one FILLEd my engine with oil. IE almost 5 gallons.. till it ran out the filler hole.
I think it has been fairly well established that bolt on mods do almost nothing, if not lower output while lightening your wallet. Hey perhaps that's where the performance gains come from.
if you have PASM, get a DSC controller. Better ride and performance.
Real HP gains, bore it out to 4.0 liters and have Len Hoffman port and polish your heads:
Seems that the ratio for performance may be the same whether it's bolt on or rebuild. The question is how much you want to pay and in what order.
$10k+ for complete exhaust and software gets you between ~10 to 20 hp.
$40k for a 4.0 or greater top of the line rebuild gets you between ~40 to 80 hp. This includes the cost of heads/ports and nikkies.
In aggregate, ~$50k gets you between ~50 to 100 hp. You can cut the costs in half if you do the work yourself.
Speed costs time, money, snd headaches. How fast you want to go will tell you how much time, money and headaches you have to accept. DIY guys may spend less money, but their cost is time and headaches.
Speed just like life is a trade-off.
Curious, as I don't think this was asked, but WHY? What's your use case for more power? Assuming you can get your car to 450+HP what will you be doing?
Cool - should be easy for you to provide examples since data is readily available.
If you’re going to speak on the topic don’t you think appropriate to be prepared to back up statements you make.
Ya know, so people know they can trust your opinion is based on more than what you believe or want to believe.
@Fabspeed Motorsport
https://www.fabspeed.com/fabspeed-po...age-2000-2004/
$264.16/HP
If I use your example of a $40K rebuild cost and split your HP gain range down the middle to 60WHP (is this even accurate?) I get:
$666.68/HP
Seems like a pretty big difference to me� maybe I�m missing something.
HP gain/ dollar is not a linear function. Best investment may be a good set of tires.
As others have said, you won't get much of anything (if anything) out of the 996 engine by throwing money at it. The exception might be a serious bump in displacement, but that is a significant investment in coin.
Just drive your car, run a few autocrosses, and learn how to drive your machine.
Yep. Everybody wants HP until they learn how to drive. Then you realize you don't need it as much as learning to carry speed.
PCA has free instructors for both autocross and DE. Best freebie out there.
Rennlist:
Poster - interested in bolt ons, any experiences ?
You - get tires and learn how to drive your car.
Define - won�t get much of anything, if anything for me please.
Oh here we go. The predictable you don�t need more power argument cause what would you possibly use it for argument from Glenn.
Here�s a thought�. FUN ! More power is fun.
My 996 had FVD headers, K&N air intake, IPD plenum and FVD exhaust.
Headers started to fail visual at smog, so I had them returned to OEM headers. No huge noticeable power difference, however that deep throaty sound was no longer there.
"Cold" air intake was screwing with my AOS, so had I converted back to stock. This actually felt better, maybe it was a placebo effect of actually getting cold air instead of hot engine air for once.
If you really want bang for buck without doing some crazy displacement conversion, I'd go all out on suspension. Coilovers, drop links, sway bars, brakes, etc...
I got one....riddle me this....if you get a rusted truck from way up north...then a Government Motors engine from a junk yard..and pay Bubba's Garage $100+ a case of Budwiser....what would the Hp/$ figure be?? ( asking for a friend) ....
Hello All,
To those who asked about reason for more power, it is simply to enjoy a little more punch. I have done quite a bit of track time in my E46 M3 which is comparable to power. I love the 996 and it handles well out of the box, and I have at least an elementary knowledge of how to drive. For this car though, it truly will be a joy ride car for sunny days.
So that's why going all out on suspension or tires isn't dire since this car will not be meant for shaving lap times. Simply want to enjoy the car and have a little more pick up.
I had a 2004 C4. I loved it, but sat too tall. I have always believed that the first thing to do is to upgrade the suspension. So I purchased an original kit from an independent dealer in Belgium (can't recall the name). This was a best decision. not only did the beast handle superbly, and people always were complementing the stance.
HP is expensive, even the IPD stuff the most you will gain is at most 25-30 HP for about $1,200 plus labor.
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