991.1 GT3 the elephant in the room - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

It’s getting to spring, so naturally my mate and I are sending messages about all the lovely cars for sale that we should definitely go and see and buy! His preferred choice is a 991.2 GT3 in comfort PDK flavour but every time I look at one, I can’t help feeling I prefer the front end look of the first generation. And then I think, manual aside, that gen 1 is the same car but an easy £30k or even £40k cheaper! Yes I know engines etc but the car would be run with a Porsche warranty anyways (as the ten year engine good will warranty would be expired). I can understand the manual gen two being a premium but the PDK is essentially the same car isn’t it? How are people viewing the first gen these days? The bargain of the GT line up or a liability to wash your hands of? There’s so much choice at the £80k GT Porsche price point (996/997, 718, 991 etc) it seems amazing that the market has completely dumped the gen one 991-what gives??

Problem with the gen 1 GT3 is as we approach the max 15 year OPW expiry they will be increasingly hit residually due to the engine issues as early run late 2013 cars will be 15 years old in 2028. Latest G series engine replacement cars would hedge this issue to a degree but bear in mind there is quite a difference between the gen 1 and gen 2 justifying the price difference apart from the possible engine woes. Used to think the gen 1 was prettier from the front broadly down to the slightly canted indicator lenses and conflicting air intake design v the gen 2 but now consider the gen 2 to be prettier overall including the rear lights and air vent position with the menacing black air scoops on the engine lid and better looking end sections on the spoiler further adding to the better look. Having run both cars from new the engine in the gen 2 makes the car broadly because of its greater torque and less power drop off approaching the redline compared to the gen 1. Sounds much better too with greater induction across the rev range. Snappier in lower gears. Bear in you will get a much newer car with the gen 2 with better interior media etc also helper springs improve suspension. Some like the grittier driveline clatter on the gen 1 but I preferred the much quieter gen 2 although the clutch on the manual is too light for a Porsche GT imo. Other option to consider is the GT4 being a Cayman not a 911 much better value than the GT3. Having run both 981 GT4 and 718 GT4 from new the newer car is the better choice despite the price gap. I sold my 991.2 GT3 manual CS and kept my 718 GT4 manual whilst the engine and overall package is not a GT3 it is not that far off tbh for a lot less money. Little difference on the road between the 718 GT4 and gen 1 GT3 imo.

personally think it is a little mispriced compared to the successor. I do not entirely get the engine worries, I thought you can just keep the cheap Porsche warranty and I assume once that one is no longer available , you will be able to switch the the Porsche Classic warranty (same as for the 996, 997, 986, 987) - 1,799 euros does not sound that much for people who want a warranty. Also all engines will eventually need a refresh/rebuild, so it is what it is (and I am not sure how many failures even happened since the initial period/since engines were repaired/replaced. Don't see many posts on here about 991.1 engines having let go since then (but am not focused on it either, so might well have missed it). I am not in the market for one, so might well be mistaken.

There’s a classic warranty?

Was thinking the same, never head of it. 991.1 is a great car but tbh I’d give it a miss unless you don’t mind digging deep should the worst happen and you haven’t a warranty, from what I gather it’s 50k easy plus for a new unit that ultimately still isn’t a sure thing.

Id get one from an OPC and itll come with 2 years warranty. Run it for a bit and see how you feel and swap it for a 991.2 down the line if you wanted a manual or an update? https://finder.porsche.com/gb/en-GB/details/porsch...

Or wait for a hartech type fix and cough up? Always an option. In fact there may well already be an option, I haven't looked.

PRO5T said: There’s a classic warranty? here you go https://www.porsche.com/germany/accessoriesandserv...

MDL111 said: here you go https://www.porsche.com/germany/accessoriesandserv... If you read down far enough it states this: In the event of damage, is the insurance valid throughout Europe? The insurance applies to vehicles purchased in Germany within Europe in the geographical sense. Doesn't appear to be a UK applicable warranty. I've never heard of it.

mr pg said: MDL111 said: here you go https://www.porsche.com/germany/accessoriesandserv... If you read down far enough it states this: In the event of damage, is the insurance valid throughout Europe? The insurance applies to vehicles purchased in Germany within Europe in the geographical sense. Doesn't appear to be a UK applicable warranty. I've never heard of it. It also goes on to say "⁷ Turbo and GT derivatives are excluded from the Porsche Classic Guarantee NEO."

Nuttcase said: mr pg said: MDL111 said: here you go https://www.porsche.com/germany/accessoriesandserv... If you read down far enough it states this: In the event of damage, is the insurance valid throughout Europe? The insurance applies to vehicles purchased in Germany within Europe in the geographical sense. Doesn't appear to be a UK applicable warranty. I've never heard of it. It also goes on to say "? Turbo and GT derivatives are excluded from the Porsche Classic Guarantee NEO." crap - I did not read the footnotes. So much for putting one on my RS to make it easier to sell. ah well, guess I will have to try to sell it without warranty - that's too bad.

Mwn11 said: Id get one from an OPC and itll come with 2 years warranty. Run it for a bit and see how you feel and swap it for a 991.2 down the line if you wanted a manual or an update? https://finder.porsche.com/gb/en-GB/details/porsch... Interesting to see just how few are in the OPC network-is that the only one? JZM, none. Ashgoods, none. Harbour Cars, none... Now that the ten year warranty has ended is everyone dumping them?

The dealer is on the hook for the repair if there is no Porsche warranty or goodwill on the engine. I can’t imagine many indies will want that potential liability, and it’s not like they could just bump up the car price to cover it as buyers would just end up with the 991.2. Anyone tried to sell a 991.1 into the trade lately? What was the response?

MDL111 said: crap - I did not read the footnotes. So much for putting one on my RS to make it easier to sell. ah well, guess I will have to try to sell it without warranty - that's too bad. I did give it a try and asked today - no go for GT cars. Also got a nice 1,800 Euro bill for replacing the battery as letting it go flat f... everything - serves me right for not sorting it out when the car still had juice.

PRO5T said: Interesting to see just how few are in the OPC network-is that the only one? JZM, none. Ashgoods, none. Harbour Cars, none... Now that the ten year warranty has ended is everyone dumping them? Not sure tbh. I wouldn't own one personally without the warranty. Especially when you can average it out at just over £1k a year. Unsure on build numbers but there's more .2s for sale than .1s on auto trader at the minute (28 vs 23) so are people dumping or holding? I have no idea.

What’s the engine problem, bore scoring? In which case why worry, how much can it cost to have a rebore and new pistons (which may well not be needed). It’s normally pretty cheap.

CoolHands said: What’s the engine problem, bore scoring? In which case why worry, how much can it cost to have a rebore and new pistons (which may well not be needed). It’s normally pretty cheap. If it was bore scoring everyone would be picking up a 991.1 GT3. The issue centred on the engine’s connecting rod bolts which can break, puncturing the cylinder block and leaking oil onto the hot exhaust resulting in fires. Now to make the issues more concerning Porsche when through about 4 iterations of the enging E, F, G and G6. At the cost of 50K to fix the engine I think that says it all.

FrancisA said: If it was bore scoring everyone would be picking up a 991.1 GT3. The issue centred on the engine’s connecting rod bolts which can break, puncturing the cylinder block and leaking oil onto the hot exhaust resulting in fires. Now to make the issues more concerning Porsche when through about 4 iterations of the enging E, F, G and G6. At the cost of 50K to fix the engine I think that says it all. That may have happened to some cars but I dont think thats the more common issue that is reported. It's wear on the finger followers and cams that seems to the main thing. The later heads had extra oil squirters and a DLC coated cams or something to help cool them and fix this.

Mwn11 said: That may have happened to some cars but I dont think thats the more common issue that is reported. It's wear on the finger followers and cams that seems to the main thing. The later heads had extra oil squirters and a DLC coated cams or something to help cool them and fix this. This

CoolHands said: What’s the engine problem, bore scoring? In which case why worry, how much can it cost to have a rebore and new pistons (which may well not be needed). It’s normally pretty cheap. As per another poster it's not the main problem. Not sure why you're assuming that fixing bore scoring would be cheap for a GT3! Have a look at what a set of pistons and barrels costs for a 997 GT3, then I would double it for a 991.

These were the changes from the 991.1 GT3RS engine to the 991.2 GT3RS engine ... the 991.1 rev limit was reduced whilst the 991.2RS rev limit was not and it gave an extra 20bhp. The 991.1 GT3RS had the latest G6 engine ... Porsche would not have made these changes unless they had needed to ... now they have particulate filters and additional concerns that were rushed on them for model year 2019 cars and on ... and on ... Edited by ChrisW. on Thursday 1st May 10:10

ChrisW. said: These were the changes from the 991.1 GT3RS engine to the 991.2 GT3RS engine ... the 991.1 rev limit was reduced whilst the 991.2RS rev limit was not and it gave an extra 20bhp. The 991.1 GT3RS had the latest G6 engine ... Porsche would not have made these changes unless they had needed to ... now they have particulate filters and additional concerns that were rushed on them for model year 2019 cars and on ... and on ... Edited by ChrisW. on Thursday 1st May 10:10 Are you going to buy one and find out if the issue was resolved? My understanding is that it was a combination of design and metallurgy hence the number of engine interactions.

No need to, I bought a 991.2 GT3RS ... the real problem is not that engines fail, some always will. The real problem is the cost of a rebuild if somebody can be found to do this at a half sensible price. I was told that it was probably better to find a replacement engine at a scrappers and sell the car .... even the cost of a 996/ 997.1 rebuild is a quantifiable risk ...

ChrisW. said: No need to, I bought a 991.2 GT3RS ... the real problem is not that engines fail, some always will. The real problem is the cost of a rebuild if somebody can be found to do this at a half sensible price. I was told that it was probably better to find a replacement engine at a scrappers and sell the car .... even the cost of a 996/ 997.1 rebuild is a quantifiable risk ... Well Chris congratulations......I envy you (tongue in cheek) You have bought a lovely car which in my mind is a keeper. On the engine rebuild front Hartech are looking into 991.1 rebuild offerings. Whether it extends to the 991.1 GT3 to is to be seen.

My 991.1 3RS had a Manthey engine rebuild for around €30k a couple of years back, out of warranty. It's now back under warranty I wonder whether it's possible to reduce the rev limit a bit once warranty renewal becomes impossible. There's obviously a market for out of warranty GT cars, they just require deeper pockets. I'm still six years off the 15 year limit. By that point there probably won't be any NA GT cars in production so it's possible that values will hold.

HundredthIdiot said: My 991.1 3RS had a Manthey engine rebuild for around €30k a couple of years back, out of warranty. It's now back under warranty I wonder whether it's possible to reduce the rev limit a bit once warranty renewal becomes impossible. There's obviously a market for out of warranty GT cars, they just require deeper pockets. I'm still six years off the 15 year limit. By that point there probably won't be any NA GT cars in production so it's possible that values will hold. Reduce/Manage rev limit… with foot and manual shifting especially in the lower gears. Look at the power and torque curves… most of engines best work is done by between 8250-8500 anyway, and power and torque are falling well before 9k. The latest RS, S/T and 992.2 GT engines have the hotter cams which shift the power band higher up the range… closer to the limit.

It's certainly interesting that the torque characteristics of an "opened up" 981GT4 engine result in the 991GT3 engine only having any advantage over 5750 revs ... and a little later you are comparing the GT3 to the GT4 in the next gear ... Yes there is more power, but to access it you have to use the revs. With PDK at Cadwell I did touch the rev limiter once through Goose Neck before I had built up my confidence through Chris's (driving through this in fourth and using third through Goose Neck and into Mansfield) ... and one missed downshift when I was being a little over enthusiastic and the car said no. PDK mapping could be optioned to manage rev limits ? That 981 engine is a lovely thing ... suffering only comparison with the GT3 lump !!

FrancisA said: Well Chris congratulations......I envy you (tongue in cheek) You have bought a lovely car which in my mind is a keeper. On the engine rebuild front Hartech are looking into 991.1 rebuild offerings. Whether it extends to the 991.1 GT3 to is to be seen. What’s the issues with the 991.1 (non gt3) I haven’t heard of any. Edited by Youforreal. on Sunday 4th May 10:31

ChrisW. said: No need to, I bought a 991.2 GT3RS ... the real problem is not that engines fail, some always will. The real problem is the cost of a rebuild if somebody can be found to do this at a half sensible price. I was told that it was probably better to find a replacement engine at a scrappers and sell the car .... even the cost of a 996/ 997.1 rebuild is a quantifiable risk ... FWIW…. I had to rebuild a 997.2 GT3RS engine about 8 years ago. Approx €50k. And that was without getting a new set of con rods from Porsche @ €30k….

mep59 said: FWIW…. I had to rebuild a 997.2 GT3RS engine about 8 years ago. Approx €50k. And that was without getting a new set of con rods from Porsche @ €30k…. 30K !! Surely that’s blatant profiteering from Porsche.

Youforreal. said: What’s the issues with the 991.1 (non gt3) I haven’t heard of any. There aren't any. I did a lot of homework before buying mine.

mep59 said: ChrisW. said: No need to, I bought a 991.2 GT3RS ... the real problem is not that engines fail, some always will. The real problem is the cost of a rebuild if somebody can be found to do this at a half sensible price. I was told that it was probably better to find a replacement engine at a scrappers and sell the car .... even the cost of a 996/ 997.1 rebuild is a quantifiable risk ... FWIW…. I had to rebuild a 997.2 GT3RS engine about 8 years ago. Approx €50k. And that was without getting a new set of con rods from Porsche @ €30k…. I thought a replacement engine was "only" about 50k - maybe that pricing is out of date by now

MDL111 said: mep59 said: ChrisW. said: No need to, I bought a 991.2 GT3RS ... the real problem is not that engines fail, some always will. The real problem is the cost of a rebuild if somebody can be found to do this at a half sensible price. I was told that it was probably better to find a replacement engine at a scrappers and sell the car .... even the cost of a 996/ 997.1 rebuild is a quantifiable risk ... FWIW…. I had to rebuild a 997.2 GT3RS engine about 8 years ago. Approx €50k. And that was without getting a new set of con rods from Porsche @ €30k…. I thought a replacement engine was "only" about 50k - maybe that pricing is out of date by now I heard it was closer to 85 with the rs well over 100k, complete engine from Porsche

TDT said: Reduce/Manage rev limit… with foot and manual shifting especially in the lower gears. My right foot isn't that accurate!

HundredthIdiot said: TDT said: Reduce/Manage rev limit… with foot and manual shifting especially in the lower gears. My right foot isn't that accurate! I'm sure there's a maintenance schedule figured out on Rennlist for checking the cam lobes, as long as you don't drive track in automatic I imagine you'd be pretty unlikely to be hitting the limiter very often.

Grantstown said: 30K !! Surely that’s blatant profiteering from Porsche. Well, it was for the titanium items of the 4.0 engine, but still… And of course there was no option of a replacement engine, given that the car had been out of production for 5 years or so! Moral of the story… maintain your extended warranty for as long as possible.

Youforreal. said: MDL111 said: mep59 said: ChrisW. said: No need to, I bought a 991.2 GT3RS ... the real problem is not that engines fail, some always will. The real problem is the cost of a rebuild if somebody can be found to do this at a half sensible price. I was told that it was probably better to find a replacement engine at a scrappers and sell the car .... even the cost of a 996/ 997.1 rebuild is a quantifiable risk ... FWIW…. I had to rebuild a 997.2 GT3RS engine about 8 years ago. Approx €50k. And that was without getting a new set of con rods from Porsche @ €30k…. I thought a replacement engine was "only" about 50k - maybe that pricing is out of date by now I heard it was closer to 85 with the rs well over 100k, complete engine from Porsche bloody hell, it looks like Eurospares will sell me a new FF V12 for 72k GBP and 30k GBP for slightly used one on an exchange basis.

NDA said: Youforreal. said: What’s the issues with the 991.1 (non gt3) I haven’t heard of any. There aren't any. I did a lot of homework before buying mine. When did the 991 transition from NA to the turbo engine ? There have been some turbo issues ...

ChrisW. said: When did the 991 transition from NA to the turbo engine ? There have been some turbo issues ... 991.2

Youforreal. said: FrancisA said: Well Chris congratulations......I envy you (tongue in cheek) You have bought a lovely car which in my mind is a keeper. On the engine rebuild front Hartech are looking into 991.1 rebuild offerings. Whether it extends to the 991.1 GT3 to is to be seen. What’s the issues with the 991.1 (non gt3) I haven’t heard of any. Edited by Youforreal. on Sunday 4th May 10:31 My understanding is that 991.1s are now 13 years old (from inception) and are reaching the point of where some engines are possibly needing rebuilds due to high mileage. There are no known issues with the engine as far as I know. In fact I hear they are the most reliable water cooled engines Porsche have produced. I, for one, plan to keep mine and if I get to the point of needing a new engine will ship it to Hartech to rebuild rather than trade in.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134737386482?chn=ps&amp... You can pick up engines. There’s no point in paying Porsche for a new one. The warranty thing is good if you can be arsed with the dealers and restrictions, but if GT3s are going to become classics then there will need to be a solution beyond 15 years of age. I’m sure the 991.1 GT3 was 110Kish new when launched and that’s with transport to the UK, tax and a healthy profit for Porsche and the dealer. To be charging the amounts they do for parts and engines is taking the pxxs.

I agree that there ought to be somebody who can refresh these engines ... Regarding the 991.1 non GT3 question ... this was therefore the same engine as the 981 GT4 ... which I know in racing were running three seasons and on strip-down were often found to need for nothing more than new consumables (chains, bearings, rings etc). The 718 4.0 engine never raced ... but that also appears to be reliable being a bored / stroked ? version of the 3.0 litre in the 991.2 C2's etc ...

Grantstown said: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134737386482?chn=ps&amp... You can pick up engines. There’s no point in paying Porsche for a new one. The warranty thing is good if you can be arsed with the dealers and restrictions, but if GT3s are going to become classics then there will need to be a solution beyond 15 years of age. I’m sure the 991.1 GT3 was 110Kish new when launched and that’s with transport to the UK, tax and a healthy profit for Porsche and the dealer. To be charging the amounts they do for parts and engines is taking the pxxs. Would you pay 21K for an engine on eBay with no way of verifying the actual mileage and/or previous issues and walk away with a 30 day warranty? You are a brave man indeed.

FrancisA said: Would you pay 21K for an engine on eBay with no way of verifying the actual mileage and/or previous issues and walk away with a 30 day warranty? You are a brave man indeed. Definitely not, but I’d enquire into the history and have it inspected. Due diligence. The point is that there will be solutions, just as there are for classic Porsches.

991.1 GT3 was £100500 basic.

ChrisW. said: NDA said: Youforreal. said: What’s the issues with the 991.1 (non gt3) I haven’t heard of any. There aren't any. I did a lot of homework before buying mine. When did the 991 transition from NA to the turbo engine ? There have been some turbo issues ... As answered by Youforreal, the 991.1 Carrera S is a 3.8 non turbo and then the 991.2 had the smaller 3.0 and turbos. There have been too many turbo issues for my liking - I know forums generally only have the bad new stories, but even so, it's a regular issue reported. The 991.1 engines, from my many hours of homework, seem to be fairly bulletproof. There are active engine mount issues on some, but nothing serious.

av185 said: 991.1 GT3 was £100500 basic. Great point, so Porsche really are taking the pxxs with their parts prices.

Grantstown said: FrancisA said: Would you pay 21K for an engine on eBay with no way of verifying the actual mileage and/or previous issues and walk away with a 30 day warranty? You are a brave man indeed. Definitely not, but I’d enquire into the history and have it inspected. Due diligence. The point is that there will be solutions, just as there are for classic Porsches. There are ... all the parts are available as both Porsche and other classic, there are also cars being broken with a known mechanical history ... the choice with 991.1 GT3 is I would say far more limited ... maybe a "Hartech" will take up the mantle, maybe others can for a price ... but look at the price of new parts ...

ChrisW. said: There are ... all the parts are available as both Porsche and other classic, there are also cars being broken with a known mechanical history ... the choice with 991.1 GT3 is I would say far more limited ... maybe a "Hartech" will take up the mantle, maybe others can for a price ... but look at the price of new parts ... Crazy prices new. I haven't really heard of an engine failure in a long time, but I wonder what the floor would be in depreciation. They're a 75K car now, but will they become a 40K car. There will be a point at which they're worth a punt.

From memory the problems mainly occured when you were in PDK Sport mode. On my last visit to PEC with it, the instructor didn't want me usng PDK Sport, although perhaps he was trying to make me a better driver. If you plan to track it then a warranty is essential. If you're doing mainly road driving you may get away with it, but I'd probably want the warranty. If you want a car for a few years an OPC 991.1 is a good choice and the £35k you save over the 991.2 could be used for other toys

Though when I track I use PASM in sport but PDK in normal manual ... I can't truly see the need for the PDK Sport purely on the basis of mechanical sympathy risk against any minute time benefit ??

Grantstown said: ChrisW. said: There are ... all the parts are available as both Porsche and other classic, there are also cars being broken with a known mechanical history ... the choice with 991.1 GT3 is I would say far more limited ... maybe a "Hartech" will take up the mantle, maybe others can for a price ... but look at the price of new parts ... Crazy prices new. I haven't really heard of an engine failure in a long time, but I wonder what the floor would be in depreciation. They're a 75K car now, but will they become a 40K car. There will be a point at which they're worth a punt. AFAIK my ex 991.1 GT3 (built May 2014 delivered October 2014 with later factory fit engine) is still on the original engine. Tend to think the 991.1 GT3 prices are closely linked and related to the 981 GT4 so unlikely either of these cars will be anywhere near the £40k region anytime soon.

Engine rebuilds are sodding expensive modern GT engine or not. You can easily spent £20k plus getting a very standard engine on a classic 911 rebuilt (labour rates are typically about £85+VAT)….that multiplies very quickly with higher spec race engines on classics. I can easily see modern engines being over £50k with the much higher labour rates and modern parts

Cheib said: Engine rebuilds are sodding expensive modern GT engine or not. You can easily spent £20k plus getting a very standard engine on a classic 911 rebuilt (labour rates are typically about £85+VAT)….that multiplies very quickly with higher spec race engines on classics. I can easily see modern engines being over £50k with the much higher labour rates and modern parts Classic engine easily that much. 50K if you want a >300bhp air cooled. 996/7 less than classics as Hartech have such a good solution. Who knows for these cars, but are they even failing now? Maybe it’s only a top end rebuild anyway? I think a used replacement would be a good solution though. There are classics where a replacement engine is put in and the matching numbers crated up pending a time when funds allow.