997 C2S/C4S - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi, I'm new to 911s and was thinking about getting one. I want to spend about £30K. From what I've seen that would get a 2006 with about 50K on it. Is it worth spending a bit more to get something a bit newer? I plan to keep it for a year or two, then sell it. I only seem to to be able to find dealers selling, is there a good place to look for them other than eBay/Autotrader? I've only seen one with a tan interior, are they rare? Thanks in advance for any help.

Irri said: Hi, I'm new to 911s and was thinking about getting one. I want to spend about £30K. From what I've seen that would get a 2006 with about 50K on it. Is it worth spending a bit more to get something a bit newer? I plan to keep it for a year or two, then sell it. I only seem to to be able to find dealers selling, is there a good place to look for them other than eBay/Autotrader? I've only seen one with a tan interior, are they rare? Thanks in advance for any help. Tan interiors are fairly rare. I wouldn't get one without a Porsche warranty, given the known engine issues and potential costs. Have you looked in the classifieds on this forum - might be able to find a car that's been owned by an enthusiast, well looked after, and with good history. (Like the car that I sold last year - 2006 C4S, 1 owner from new, full history and warranty etc!)

Irri said: Hi, Is it worth spending a bit more to get something a bit newer? I plan to keep it for a year or two, then sell it. Thanks in advance for any help. Hi, Personally, I'd stump up a bit more and try and find a nice Gen.2 car to reduce chances of engine problems. Good Luck.

Ah, I didn't realise there was a classifieds section. Thanks for the heads up. What year are gen 2?

Irri said: Ah, I didn't realise there was a classifieds section. Thanks for the heads up. What year are gen 2? I think the Gen.2 cars started sometime in 2008; most adverts will say if the car is a Gen.2; with Gen.2 cars, the engines were re-designed to eliminate previous design flaws and also, the tiptronic boxes were replaced by the PDK which are a big improvement. As well as looking on Pistonheads classifieds, you could also try the Porsche Dealer used car search; if you buy from a Porsche OPC, you will probably pay a bit more, but you will get a full 2 year Porsche warranty.

Thanks. The gen 2s seem to be about £40 which is a bit much. Are the gen 1s that bad? Maybe I should get an old Hank Moody instead.

Irri said: Thanks. The gen 2s seem to be about £40 which is a bit much. Are the gen 1s that bad? Maybe I should get an old Hank Moody instead. Don't discount the 997 C2 rather than C2S; I think the Gen.2 C2 is as powerful as the Gen.1 C2S IIRC. You should find a Gen.2 for mid-30's; I wouldn't buy a Gen.1 without a Porsche Warranty, but that's me and I like minimum risk. Here's one from a very reputable dealer: http://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/yii/explore/inde... Edited by carcrazypop on Thursday 27th March 15:37

Thanks again for the info. I could stretch to mid 30s, but I forgot to mention I want cab, and it has to be black. Are cabs generally more? A non-S version is fine.

Irri said: Thanks. The gen 2s seem to be about £40 which is a bit much. Are the gen 1s that bad? Maybe I should get an old Hank Moody instead. Don't you just love it when random people casually add thousands to you budget In answer to your question Gen 1s are not bad cars though you'd be wise to go for a post 2006 car as there were running changes made to the engines that improved their reliability. Picking up a car that has an extended Porsche warranty also shields you from any big bills. You just have to stick with Porsche for servicing and keep it standard; worth it in my opinion. This forum is very doom and gloom regarding Gen 1 997s but people only write about the planes that crash, not the 1000's that complete their journeys incident free. I bought a 2008 Gen 1 with 18 months of Porsche warranty last November and so far it's been a pleasure to own.

GregorFuk said: Irri said: Thanks. The gen 2s seem to be about £40 which is a bit much. Are the gen 1s that bad? Maybe I should get an old Hank Moody instead. Don't you just love it when random people casually add thousands to you budget In answer to your question Gen 1s are not bad cars though you'd be wise to go for a post 2006 car as there were running changes made to the engines that improved their reliability. Picking up a car that has an extended Porsche warranty also shields you from any big bills. You just have to stick with Porsche for servicing and keep it standard; worth it in my opinion. This forum is very doom and gloom regarding Gen 1 997s but people only write about the planes that crash, not the 1000's that complete their journeys incident free. I bought a 2008 Gen 1 with 18 months of Porsche warranty last November and so far it's been a pleasure to own. Hey Matey, one random person here; the OP asked whether he should spend a bit more in his original post, and my reply was yes so he can get into a Gen.2.

It's nice to have as much input as possible I agree about the planes, but it's nice to know about possible pitfalls. I'm confused, were the engines changed in 2006 or 2008?

Gen 1 cars are absolutely great - I actually prefer the styling, noise and power delivery on the Gen 1 car over the Gen 2 when I test drove them last year. Gen 2 hits back with smoother engine, PDK box and better PCM... Manual all the way for me though as I prefer to heel/toe and found the PDK box hunted too much for my taste in auto. Gen 2 cars are great but at circa 15k difference at the time I was looking for a car - that is in my view almost exactly the same - it didn't stack up. The issue with Engine's is quite simply overblown - just speak to Hartech on it and you will get a much more balanced view than exists on here. As others say protect yourself if you are concerned at all - I am doing so for 70 pounds a month with Hartech and that includes an MOT and service by them once a year. You need to speak to them before you buy the car however as it is not as simple as turning up with a car and expecting it to be covered in this manner. On the 2006 cars v the 2004-2005 ones - there were changes to the engine internally to protect against one of the known failures but am sure someone on here with far more knowledge will be able to let you know properly! The 2008-on cars went to a DFI engine which was a ground up rework...

Irri said: It's nice to have as much input as possible I agree about the planes, but it's nice to know about possible pitfalls. I'm confused, were the engines changed in 2006 or 2008? A 2006 is still a Gen.1 but there were some running improvements made to the Gen.1 engines to reduce the risk so a 2006 on car is a better bet than an earlier one. The Gen.2 car came out in late 2008 and the engines in these were a completely new design. You may struggle to get a Gen.2 cab for less than £40k unless it's high mileage; if you go for a Gen.1, I'd definitely recommend getting one with a Porsche Warranty for peace of mind. If you buy one privately which already has a Porsche Warranty, you can transfer it to yourself on a private sale.

carcrazypop said: Don't discount the 997 C2 rather than C2S; I think the Gen.2 C2 is as powerful as the Gen.1 C2S IIRC. You should find a Gen.2 for mid-30's; I wouldn't buy a Gen.1 without a Porsche Warranty, but that's me and I like minimum risk. Here's one from a very reputable dealer: http://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/yii/explore/inde... Edited by carcrazypop on Thursday 27th March 15:37 That is a lovely Gen 2 for a decent price - however one thing that IMO is essential on a Gen 2 C2 car is PSE. Night and Day driving wise for those who like to hear the engine when driving...

Agreed, for me the gen 1 is a better looking car. Mine is a 53,000 mile C2S. It hasn't blown up yet. It gets serviced properly and warmed up thoroughly before I cane it... I'm really rather fond of it too!

FarQue said: Agreed, for me the gen 1 is a better looking car. Mine is a 53,000 mile C2S. It hasn't blown up yet. It gets serviced properly and warmed up thoroughly before I cane it... I'm really rather fond of it too! Excellent - 36k for me and going strong!

carcrazypop said: Hey Matey, one random person here; the OP asked whether he should spend a bit more in his original post, and my reply was yes so he can get into a Gen.2. That's not quite what he said but fair enough. I interpreted "a bit more" with a few extra 1000 which isn't usually enough to get you in a lb for lb Gen 2. Edited by GregorFuk on Friday 28th March 10:56

schaeffs said: FarQue said: Agreed, for me the gen 1 is a better looking car. Mine is a 53,000 mile C2S. It hasn't blown up yet. It gets serviced properly and warmed up thoroughly before I cane it... I'm really rather fond of it too! Excellent - 36k for me and going strong! 42K and no issues.

I hope the OP has noticed that all the posters bulling up the Gen.1 cars are actually owners of those cars, so maybe a slight bias there I've had Gen.1 and Gen.2 cars in the past and all that I'm saying is if you can stretch to a Gen.2 car, go for it; I've also said that I'm adverse to risk, and if it was me buying a Gen.1 car, I'd only get one with a Porsche Warranty IMHO They are both brilliant cars, but if the worst happens, they can cost an awful lot to put right. Good Luck with whatever you choose.

Irri said: Thanks. The gen 2s seem to be about £40 which is a bit much. Are the gen 1s that bad? Maybe I should get an old Hank Moody instead. Yes buy a gen1 and it will self destruct its engine. No they are fine, yes Porsche had a design flaw, but in reality the IMS likely-hood of failing is something like less than 1% and bore scoring is higher, upto 5% car effected at sub 100k miles I'd say. IMS seems less likely on cars which have got to 50,000 miles and bore scoring can be held back or avoided by good maintenance and improved engine cooling. They are great cars, I am in my 3rd year of ownership, plenty of track days and nearly 30,000 miles in my hands, engine still has zero signs of scoring.

Thanks for all this info. So... £40K for a 2008, or £30K for a 2006 (need warranty). Will have to have a think.

Irri said: Thanks for all this info. So... £40K for a 2008, or £30K for a 2006 (need warranty). Will have to have a think. No. lb for lb. Circa low 30's for a late Gen 1 (No earlier than 2006, up to mid 2008) need warranty. Circa low 40's for a Gen 2. Currently perceived to be less prone to engine issues but there's more to a car than just the engine and I'd still want a warranty.

carcrazypop said: Hi, Personally, I'd stump up a bit more and try and find a nice Gen.2 car to reduce chances of engine problems. Good Luck. Internet hysteria. TX.

Terminator X said: carcrazypop said: Hi, Personally, I'd stump up a bit more and try and find a nice Gen.2 car to reduce chances of engine problems. Good Luck. Internet hysteria. TX. Sorry, that's not strictly true. I've seen & heard about too many examples of Gen.1 engines failing for it to be written off as internet hysteria, a very naive viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply trying to make sure the OP goes into this major purchase with his eyes open. Try speaking to some Porsche indies and Porsche Independant Sales specialists before writing it off as hysteria. Why do you think people like Hartech thrive.

carcrazypop said: Sorry, that's not strictly true. I've seen & heard about too many examples of Gen.1 engines failing for it to be written off as internet hysteria, a very naive viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply trying to make sure the OP goes into this major purchase with his eyes open. Try speaking to some Porsche indies and Porsche Independant Sales specialists before writing it off as hysteria. Why do you think people like Hartech thrive. carcrazypop. Did you have any issues with your Gen 1?

GregorFuk said: carcrazypop said: Sorry, that's not strictly true. I've seen & heard about too many examples of Gen.1 engines failing for it to be written off as internet hysteria, a very naive viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply trying to make sure the OP goes into this major purchase with his eyes open. Try speaking to some Porsche indies and Porsche Independant Sales specialists before writing it off as hysteria. Why do you think people like Hartech thrive. carcrazypop. Did you have any issues with your Gen 1? No, I didn't, but it was ultra low mileage, <3 yrs old and I only had it for about 4 months as I was offered a great deal on a 996t; and yes, I bought it from Wilmslow OPC so it had 2 years warranty. I'm not saying the odds of engine failure are likely, but as the OP is not familiar with the Porsche brand, I'm trying to make sure he goes in with his eyes open because if he gets it wrong, it could be a costly mistake. My Gen.1 was a superb car but the chance of the turbo was just too tempting.

carcrazypop said: Sorry, that's not strictly true. I've seen & heard about too many examples of Gen.1 engines failing for it to be written off as internet hysteria, a very naive viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply trying to make sure the OP goes into this major purchase with his eyes open. Try speaking to some Porsche indies and Porsche Independant Sales specialists before writing it off as hysteria. Why do you think people like Hartech thrive. I think the reality is somewhere between the two - although TX is right, there is definitely hysteria from some quarters on this (not saying your comments are anywhere near this but have read quite a bit in the recent past on here!)

Irri said: Thanks for all this info. So... £40K for a 2008, or £30K for a 2006 (need warranty). Will have to have a think. Comparing C2S like for like I would go high 20s for a nice 2006 car - 40k is about right for a decent 2008 model - and quite frankly I would want a warranty on both cars for peace of mind (a busted rad will set you back 1k+) so that is a cost that doesn't come into the equation...

carcrazypop said: Terminator X said: carcrazypop said: Hi, Personally, I'd stump up a bit more and try and find a nice Gen.2 car to reduce chances of engine problems. Good Luck. Internet hysteria. TX. Sorry, that's not strictly true. I've seen & heard about too many examples of Gen.1 engines failing for it to be written off as internet hysteria, a very naive viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply trying to make sure the OP goes into this major purchase with his eyes open. Try speaking to some Porsche indies and Porsche Independant Sales specialists before writing it off as hysteria. Why do you think people like Hartech thrive. Internet scaremongering helps no one. If you have some facts then of course feel free to divulge? How many 911's were made vs failures for example? TX.

Terminator X said: carcrazypop said: Terminator X said: carcrazypop said: Hi, Personally, I'd stump up a bit more and try and find a nice Gen.2 car to reduce chances of engine problems. Good Luck. Internet hysteria. TX. Sorry, that's not strictly true. I've seen & heard about too many examples of Gen.1 engines failing for it to be written off as internet hysteria, a very naive viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply trying to make sure the OP goes into this major purchase with his eyes open. Try speaking to some Porsche indies and Porsche Independant Sales specialists before writing it off as hysteria. Why do you think people like Hartech thrive. Internet scaremongering helps no one. If you have some facts then of course feel free to divulge? How many 911's were made vs failures for example? TX. I'm trying to give the OP some useful information so that he can go into a major purchase with his eyes open; if you care to bury your head in the sand that's fine. I think if you actually read my comments, it can in no way be interpreted as scaremongering. If you can't accept that, let's be prepared to differ, life's too short.

carcrazypop said: I'm trying to give the OP some useful information so that he can go into a major purchase with his eyes open; if you care to bury your head in the sand that's fine. I think if you actually read my comments, it can in no way be interpreted as scaremongering. If you can't accept that, let's be prepared to differ, life's too short. I see, so you have no idea then seems to be the very definition of scaremongering to me. TX.

I think people tend to just repeat what they've read. I've had a 2007 gen 1 C2S from new (55k miles) and its never had any issues. I'll be selling it this year and expect I'll get all this.

Unbelievable ! I give up, Gen.1 cars are obviously perfect and just as reliable as Gen.2 cars. Goodbye.

In an attempt to inject some balance into the forum, some years ago I owned an 06 56 plate 997.1 C2S tip coupe 26k miles, ran for 3k miles with no problems whatsoever... Then bought a 07 57 plate 997.1 C4S tip cab 12k miles, ran for 1k miles, engine piston slapped so was rebuilt at OPC days within its 2 year warranty expiring and subsequently ran for 7k miles with no more problems.... Subsequently run several gen 2 997.2 C2S, targa and GTS PDKs all of which have been faultless. All cars 1 previous owner and FPSH. My advice would be to definitely go for a gen 2 pref S...10 percent more power, bullet proof engines, better PCM and interior....I would have no hesitation going for a 'value' highish miler..... ....

av185 said: My advice would be to definitely go for a gen 2 pref S...10 percent more power, bullet proof engines, better PCM and interior....I would have no hesitation going for a 'value' highish miler..... .... Just steer clear of the new GT3 Unless you like the no cost heated seat option.

IanHug said: av185 said: My advice would be to definitely go for a gen 2 pref S...10 percent more power, bullet proof engines, better PCM and interior....I would have no hesitation going for a 'value' highish miler..... .... Just steer clear of the new GT3 Unless you like the no cost heated seat option. Although I have specced heated seats at extra cost..... The best cars tend to have initial minor teething problems.......

Sorry if my first post has started a bit of a disagreement. I really appreciate all the info though. I'm verging on a 2006 with a warranty lasting over a year, with a view to selling it before the warranty runs out. I've never driven a car that does 0-60 in less than 8.5 seconds, so who knows once I get in one Is there anything I should know about the difference between a 2 and a 4, apart from the obvious?

C4 will cost more than C2, but unless you want slightly better wet weather handling and wider body, IMO the 2 is the better driver focused 911 and has far more steering feedback and neutrality, together with less transmission noise and better overall economy.....

Irri said: Is there anything I should know about the difference between a 2 and a 4, apart from the obvious? 4s are wider at the rear and have a slightly smaller boot. If this is your first performance car then a 4 may be the safer bet. There is little difference in the driving experiance until it counts. Pistonheads is full of people who will tell you a 2 is the purists choice but I'm not afraid to admit that if my 30k+ 911 decided to go sideways I'd probably soil my boxer shorts. The 4s sure footedness gives that extra layer of protection.

Irri said: Is there anything I should know about the difference between a 2 and a 4, apart from the obvious? 4s are wider at the rear and have a slightly smaller boot. If this is your first performance car then a 4 may be the safer bet. There is little difference in the driving experiance until it counts. Pistonheads is full of people who will tell you a 2 is the purists choice but I'm not afraid to admit that if my 30k+ 911 decided to go sideways I'd probably soil my boxer shorts. The 4s sure footedness gives that extra layer of protection.

Seem to be narrowing it down now. I'm not a purist, and I don't think I'll be taking any risks, so 2/4 isn't a big issue. I like the S exhaust pipes a lot. Does anyone know when the sports exhaust button became available? My GF is adamant that it won't be faster than a MKII Golf GTI. Hoping to prove her wrong

I've only had 4s as loan cars but the biggest thing I noticed was the transmission whine - it's much more noticeable than on the 2. Remember that 4wd will help with traction on acceleration but it doesn't mean you won't crash it if you drive like a nutter. I find the rear tyres are so wide that you're unlikely to put a 2 sideways under acceleration anyway unless you stamp on the accelerator pulling out of a side road on cold tyres. Biggest problem I'd say is driving on very wet roads on worn tyres (you can thank the tyre width) - your Golf will defiantly be faster in these conditions but not as fast as blokes in white vans.

Lol. I used to be that guy hitting 95MPH on the A40M in a Sprinter. In my defence, it was blue. You can see the situation way ahead from that raised position. Not that I'm condoning it. For me, the 911 is about classic design, having the top down, and knowing there is power there should you need it. Something I grew up wanting. I don't see myself power sliding around in it.

IanHug said: I've only had 4s as loan cars but the biggest thing I noticed was the transmission whine - it's much more noticeable than on the 2. Strange, I've never noticed any transmisison whine on my C4S. When do you notice it (as in, under what conditions)? OP, I for one wanted a C2S but eventually went for a C4S as it wa right spec/colour/price etc. Over 2 years later and I love its sure footedness and will probably get another C4S when I upgrade to a Gen 2.

This is a really good thread. I'm enjoying it a lot! I've test driven a 991 c4s cab yesterday and I'm in love. Stuck with my head in the classified ever since. Anyone could answer the OP question about when the sports exhaust button became available? I'll be looking for a gen1 c4s cab or a gen2 c4s, simply love the wide body, but it will have to have PSE. What about the tiptronic auto box in gen 1? I know it's not as good as PDK, but can you at least manually control the thing and downshift at will? Or are you stuck in auto?

K2iss said: This is a really good thread. I'm enjoying it a lot! I've test driven a 991 c4s cab yesterday and I'm in love. Stuck with my head in the classified ever since. Anyone could answer the OP question about when the sports exhaust button became available? I'll be looking for a gen1 c4s cab or a gen2 c4s, simply love the wide body, but it will have to have PSE. What about the tiptronic auto box in gen 1? I know it's not as good as PDK, but can you at least manually control the thing and downshift at will? Or are you stuck in auto? Big difference in price between a 991 and 997.1...? The S 991 (395 bhp) is quite a bit different to the 997.2 (385bhp) which in turn is different to the 997.1 (350bhp). The twin clutch 7 speed PDK gearbox in the 991 is similar to the 997.2, and both are light years ahead of the single clutch 'slushbox' 5 speed tiptronic in the 997.1. Both boxes are auto and or manual but there is far greater variation with the PDK with the sport chrono option. The sports exhaust on the 997.1was introduced on the car late 2004 and is probably the most raucous of the three compared to standard setting.....

Eh? The tiptronic is a torque converter auto, not a 'single clutch' auto. Can be driven in full auto or manual with shifts controlled via steering wheel mounted buttons. Not a patch on pdk, but not bad either. Takes several drives/miles to learn how to get the best out of a tip'.

C4 should not whine - I have had 2 and 4 and no difference in transmission noise (almost silent in both). It is the rear tyre roar you need to worry about in a 997 - and the 4 does have bigger rear tyres.

Irri said: Thanks again for the info. I could stretch to mid 30s, but I forgot to mention I want cab, and it has to be black. Are cabs generally more? A non-S version is fine. Hi Irri, I think the 997 S Cabriolet is a great looking car and in fact the 997 was first developed as a convertible to make the coupe even more rigid. I purchased mine from Guildford OPC and it's had a lot of work carried out under warranty including engine, gearbox and suspension of which the most expensive wasn't the engine. It's under Porsche warranty until the end of Sept. While not technically for sale, it will need to go this year (family planning). Drop me a note if you have any questions about them and go and visit some good Porsche dealers (in Surrey) to see what a good one should look like. Remember they are performance cars and cost more than a Golf to run. Interesting that my E46 M3 cab cost twice as much per year to run as my 997 over 3 years.

997.1 C4S coupe here. 2 owners (one being the OPC) owned since may 2007 - daily driver now on to 71k miles. IMS hasn't gone, no scoring, no sooty exhaust and oil consumption is completely normal. It's not driven slowly either, and its not missed a beat. If i was considering buying a 997 now - I would probably save for a gen 2. as a lot of people have mentioned, whilst the risks are massively blown out of proportion, it does happen, and for your peace of mind, a few more months of saving could save you having to cough up for an engine rebuild IF something goes wrong. just my 2 pence