911 PDK test drive: stick shift is dead

I gave my dealer a deposit on a 2009/2010 Cayman with PDK so he invited me to test drive a 911 with PDK last Saturday. Unbelievable. I predict that 10 years from now manual transmissions will be as popular as typewriters today.

For those of us who haven't yet had the test drive, why is it so incredible? What will the old codgers who are addicted to 3-pedal driving say? Share some thoughts and impressions, please!

The dual clutch gearbox was pretty big news when Audi started shipping their DSG transmission. It was met w/mixed reviews, a lot of people liked it, other people weren't as hot on it. The biggest complaints I heard were a feeling of disconnect with the car, it didn't feel like you were in control as much as you are with manual. And the fact that downshifting took longer...eg if you are in 4th, the transmission is set to engage 5th gear, not 3rd, so a downshift took longer. I personally haven't driven a dual clutch transmission but I would definitely consider it on my next Porsche purchase.

I don't see stick shift becoming the equivalent of a type writer, but I think those that have considered tiptronic in the past, but ultimately purchased a manual, will now have an paddle shifter option without the drawbacks of the current flappy paddle transmission. My brother drives a DSG equipped VW R32 which I've driven on multiple occasions. Its a peppy fun car and the transmission is great, but I would rather have a clutch and stick. I know that a DSG or PDK transmission is capable of shifting quicker than I am, but for me at least, once the paddles go in, an integral part of the "sports car" experience has been removed. At the end of the day I think it really comes down to personal perference.

I guess I am not seeing it. The automatic transmission has been around a long time. I'm not seeing anyone saying, "Well, I almost bought the automatic but it didn't shift smooth enough and so I went with a manual instead." Same with the Tiptronic. Most who buy automatics in the USA at least just want it to shift for them, period. They aren't going to pay a huge premium for a little smoother shift. But will Porsche drivers? I think the more general question is will sports car drivers? It can of course shave off a little time if you race but there are hundreds of ways to do that from losing weight to practice to buying a faster car. Buying another 100hp is one thing. Buying a little faster shift is another, which matters to some for sure, but on a scale I guess I'm not seeing it as being such a huge factor that it will sway those who choose manuals. I love to see the (now) old racing technology working it's way down to the consumer level, and maybe manuals will die anyway, but I think if that happens it will be more due to the general mindset of people more then PDK vs the Automatics they have now. But having said that, manuals are doing well in some parts of the world if for no other reason then they are inexpensive to build and for people on budgets those savings often outweigh the benefits of automatics, smooth or not.

:cheers: This old codger learned how to drive in a VW 30+ years ago. I do think my preference of the stick is more of a control thing. I would also have a hard time paying an extra 4 Gs for the option. Everyone has their own preferences, if it makes you happy, do it! :cheers:

i did a test drive at Reeves in Tampa on friday while i had the softronic plenum installed. they just got a carerra and a cab s on wednesday, both with pdk . i drove both back to back. the carerra was awesome and had the new 18 in wheels, which look great. the pdk shifts are super smooth, even on hard down shifts. it was like driving a cayman s for the first time, except with more power. i got up to 120mph with ease on the interstate. the suspension changes have made the 911 handle like a mid-engine cayman s (at least on the street). the car did not have pasm or sports chrono . i was very impressed. my only problem was getting used to the location of the pdk shifters. they should be at 10 and 2 not 3 and 9. the 911 cab s was a let down. it only weights 210 lbs more and i guess that and the soft top are enough to rob all the extra power. i could not tell it had 40 more hp. also, i officially hate 19 in wheels for street driving. my carrera sport wheels will be for sale as soon as i can buy the new 18 in carrera IV wheel. see Fred at Reeves if anyone wishes a test drive. as an aside, Chuck (service) and Sam (mechanic) charged me only 1.5 hrs labor for the plenum install and gave me a 10% pca discount. this was after i was told it would not void the warranty (unless it fell apart and was sucked into the engine).

I will always have a manual shifter in my (hobby) sports car, just because I prefer to shift gears. There is sometime quiet satisfying about getting a downshift or up shift just right on the track. As a daily drive I would most likely concede and order the PDK , you get the best of both worlds so why. Either way there is no bad choice, just personnel preference.

For me it would be between torque converter auto and manual. The manual for my fun car, and the TC auto for a car I hop into to post a letter down the long street.

We need to discount heavily the responses from those who have not yet experienced the PDK . No experience equals opinion not fact . I've not yet had the pleasure but after a weekend of suffering with an arthritic toe that made shifting the CS painful I'd sure consider it as an option. I'm pass the point that my assessment is based on what I learned as a sub-teen reading magazines about what we are supposed to like (manual shift). Orthopedic surgeons please PM me.

Sheesh, here we go again! Were's that head slapping pic?

I have not driven the PDK yet but I’ve talked to about 4 sales guys at my local Porsche Dealer. They all went out to SoCal to drive the 911 and they all said it was amazing. It’s hard to convey what they said. But one particular sales person that had been driving Porsches since he was a kid and raced them also said the same thing that CA888 said that manual transmission will soon be a thing of the past. In a recent post about the last issue of Sport Car International magazine had a very good article on a test drive of the PDK. Its worth reading. Sport Car International magazine

I am sure the PDK is a technological marvel. My questions are: (1) Can I do heel/toe down-shifts with it? (2) Can I do double-clutch rev match on down-shifts? I know what the answers are. For me, driving a stick is an art that performance alone cannot measure. I am sure once one gets totally comfortable with the PDK , one can do some magical stuff with that. I just miss my old-school driving art-form. CP

Anyone that wants to experience a PDK go drive a TT 3.2q It will be the closest thing to the horsepower that a P-car will have. Drive it in all modes, let it think for you and then put it in sport mode and be surprised when the engine rev's to match the downshift, and all you did was lift off the throttle. Then try manual, tell me it ain't fun, more than that it is effective. An Automatic that has quicker 0-60 times than the manual counterpart... The more torque the engine makes the better it reacts too. Some will always say a sports car has a clutch. Others will realize a race car has two. DSG, S-Tronic, PDK , call it what you will. It is the best thing since sliced bread. Im sure F1 teams aren't looking for any typewriters these days. My CS is a 6 speed but you can bet if the PDK was available when i bought - I'd surely have chosen it.

"auto" “The system works so well, there’s little point in shifting yourself,” Jochen Möckel, Porsche development driver. reached same conclusion after test driving DSG

Doesn't sound like fun to me. I was driving a friends 6 speed Corvette. I pull away from the light in first and try to shift to second. The gear lever bumps into fourth and a light on the dash flashes "1 - 4 UPSHIFT" The car forces me into fourth at 12 MPH! I don't want my car to pick my gears and rev match for me. I don't want lights that come on automatically and dim themselves. I don't want, mirrors that dim automatically, auto wipers, auto climate control, a radio with volumn that varies with your speed... I can reach all these thing right from the drivers seat. Please Porsche keep the bells and whistles optional. Might as well take the bus.

I got flamed real hard for saying the manual is "dead" over a year ago, but honestly, a much higher percentage of 987.2's will be in PDK form than manual when compared to previous years, just wait and see. You cannot stop advancement. The Vette has a lot of torque, so it will do just fine in 4th at 12mph. The way to defeat this is to shift at a higher RPM, or you can disable it for less than $50.

I seriously doubt that,.....our own surveys here have shown that. Don't have anything against the PDK , but for $4k Porsche can keep it for now, and I'll keep my stick. When/if it gets below $2k I might think about it, but in my mind its not better or an advancement.....just different.

Hets and I got to drive a PDK 911 (without sport chrono ) last weekend at Jim Ellis Porsche while we were working on the Croctoberfest Rally. I wanted to love it but I didn't. Part of the problem is they're just buttons, not paddles. Not very involving. Certainly way better than Tiptronic, so if you drive an automatic it's a big improvement. But I'll stick with a stick (with short shifter).

Also, I've recently driven the E92 M3 w/ both the typewriter-style manual and the new DCT (DSG) tranny. Overall, my perception of the DCT is mixed. The good: - 1 more gear (should help fuel economy) - good for heavy traffic - shifts are really fast and clean - paddles feel really nice The bad: - cost - I suspect it will require more maint. &/or prove less reliable - takes away some driver involvement - IMO, cars are becoming too complex, and this is another step in the wrong direction. I loved how easy it was to work on my old S2000 's - everything was accessible, simple, and straightforward. I don't know if I'd opt for a DSG tranny or not. For daily driver or heavy track use, prob. so, but less likely for a weekend toy.

Graphical Advantage of Dual Clutch I don't have data on 997 PDK, but I did gather some from my GT-R. Take a look at the attached chart, which plots speed over distance. It's a screen grab from TraqMate. Black is my GT-R, Blue is a modded 993TT with a similar Weight/HP ratio. Look how, even though my entry speed is lower and my acceleration curve is not as steep, I take the manual transmission car on the straight. You can see the shift points clearly (stair steps in the blue line). -Chris

Not too much more than 100 years ago, many Americns got around by horse. Now horses are owned for sport only. The manual transmission is our present horse - a disappearing breed for transportation devices but will have a long life in "the sporting group" that is overrepresented in the Porsche-owning coterie. "The last car built will be a sportscar." F. Porsche

I had a chance to drive a new 911 (non-S) with PDK last week, and was very impressed by it. It's still an automatic, but I would be willing to agree that the torque converter is dead (but not the manual tranny). If I had to buy an automatic, I'd rather have the PDK . However, I'll stick with a stick (no pun intended ). Also, the handling of the '09 997.2 911 was noticeably better than the '08 997 991S I drove a few months ago. It's still not quite as good as a CS, but the tuning changes have definitely improved the car.

I test drove the Gen 2 997 Cab S over the weekend too. The PDK makes for a great automatic replacement. It does not replace the 6spd for people who love to drive. I drove an M6 with the similar transmission a few months back, and the PDK is *so* much smoother -- really, really smooth upshifts and downshifts. No big throttle blurp on the PDK though like the M6 had, which was awesome to hear. The shifts don't feel much quicker than a well-shifted manual transmission, and I don't think it's fair to compare the PDK to the new GT-R's transmission (which I've yet to drive unfortunately, but a good friend of mine who has an R32 did, and he said it's *really* good). Overall, the sensation of the new S Cab with PDK is that the car feels like a GT car, rather than a sports car -- which isn't why I bought a Porsche. I'm glad I didn't wait to order an '09 just for the PDK , I'll take my 6spd RS 60 over the launch car that I drove any day of the week.

Test drove the 09 Carrera S cab ( launch car) and 09 Carrera 3.6 yesterday, both with PDK . The exhaust on the S sounded much better than the 3.6 but the motor on the S was not as smooth at idle as the 3.6. The PDK is SMOOTH ... very, very SMOOTH ... because the shifts are claimed to be so fast, I expected a "bump" when it shifted, like when you speed shift a manual but there was no such "bump" feeling. I think the placement of the buttons was perfect, 3 and 9 is where my hands are placed naturally when driving and gives better steering leverage than 10 and 2. After driving both cars for about 30 minutes each, decided PDK is not for me, not shifting manually and having the clutch detaches the driver from the experiance of driving ... I missed shifting and can think of many better ways to spend 4K on other options. To claim PDK will result in the demise of manual transmission is premature. Better than Tiptronic? Yes, by a large margin, but for the sheer pleasure of driving I'll stick with my stick. As far as reports of the new 911 having better handling than previous versions, maybe, but it still doesn't have near the connected feel of my CS, the 997.2s felt heavy / sluggish in comparison, guess I am spoiled. I didn't feel a large difference in power due to DFI compared to previous 997s, about the same to me or maybe even less for some reason ( PDK ?). In the end, my bank account sighed in relief, I wouldn't trade my Cayman S for either of the 997.2s I drove yesterday.

PDK Manual Develop a "light" version of PDK/DSG ie without automatic mode, put the neutral and reverse buttons on the steering wheel with the shifters and get rid of the central selector all together and I might consider attending the sticks funeral.

This is just my opinion, but to me the point of a sports car is speed. A 911 with PDK will smoke a well-driven 911 with manual. And PDK does make you go faster because there is no way a human can shift as fast or as smoothly. PDK is, in a word, amazing. That's why two dealers I talked to predicted that somewhere around 75% of their orders will be PDK , and that that number will simply get bigger. I understand that many believe that the stick shift is pure and more fun - but if you want to go fast , you'll get the PDK. In the end, you may not like it, but you won't have much of a choice if you want to compete, or if you look to re-sale value, or if you just want to go fast.

A few points to consider that haven't been mentioned in this thread. First, someone mentioned that PDK is an advancement. There is no doubt that the technology involved to create a system that works as well as claimed is very advanced. But PDK is a solution to what problem? What every person enjoys out of driving a sports car/manual transmission is different. Some enjoy the shifting, the control, the sound, the overall experience of connection with the vehicle itself. For the people that enjoy a manual transmission, PDK is not an advancement or a better driving experience. It may completely take away some of the enjoyment of the drive. Then, what does PDK do for porsche drivers that are either in triptronic or a manual that will move over to PDK . I believe that for triptronic owners they are given a better system that allows them to finally get similar/better performance numbers than what they currently live with. For manual owners that switch, I think they are the ones that will move over due to drawbacks of having to drive a manual transmission which I believe is due to another reason I will discuss below. Also I believe many of the owners that switch to PDK will be drivers that chose a manual over a triptronic to enjoy the sportiness of the car, and the better performance and sacrificing comfort or usability for those values that they deem important to them. I think we are also ignoring a very important aspect of driving a manual, the actual skill involved to shift properly during a daily drive or on the track. Over my experience I've found that most people that drive a manual were never properly trained or learned any techniques past the most basic to get the car moving. This is not to say you can't drive a manual if your very good at it, but I've found that people who go to a manual and go back to an automatic usually don't know how to drive one well and end up being frustrated and losing any enjoyment. That being said, I think those that have the skill to drive one well with different techniques, such as heel toe, can never be replaced by any sort of automatic that comes by. The joy that any person gets at succeeding in a difficult maneuver is unmeasurable. I get kick every time I do a perfect shift or hell-toe. I'm sure basketball players get that same feeling every time they make a perfect 3 pointer. In the end it will always depend on your circumstances. If your in heavy traffic all the time and don't want to deal with/enjoy shifting with a manual, by all means PDK is the best thing that could happen. As time moves on I see less and less people driving manuals, but I think part of it is perception of a manual transmission as being hard and scary. People I've taught to drive a manual usually get addicted very fast, and again, it depends on the person, their skill level, and their own satisfaction in the car and drive. Finally, in the above post I understand what you mean by saying that speed is important. But, your forgetting a few things. PDK will be a lot faster to those that drive a triptronic. It will be only slightly faster to those that can drive a manual very well. True PDK may shift faster than any human, but it's purpose is to remove the skill required in driving a manual and give performance greater than or equal to the manual car. Also, I don't remember anyone saying the lost a race because they couldn't shift fast enough. I think in the overall scheme of things two pro drivers could lose more time on a bad turn then 1/10th faster shift time. To be fair, I'd like to see two 911's, one in PDK and one a manual go around the track with the same driver that is good with a manual transmission. I'd like to see each of their shift times and when and where they shifted. Then, we can see how much of a difference did PDK really make to the overall lap times. However, I think for track use PDK could be very advantageous as it will allow a driver to focus completely on the track. Enough of my ramblings, but for cliff notes: - PDK is great for current automatic drivers. - PDK will help drivers that chose a manual over automatic for performance vs comfort - A manual is not replaceable in form/function/and excitement to those that enjoy it.

I just got 2 PDK cars in and within the next week will have 2 more. I have a Carrera S Coupe with Sport Chrono Plus in Porsche Racing Green Metallic (new color) and the Carrera S Cabriolet is in Aqua Blue Metallic (another new color replacing Cobalt) without the sport chrono , but has the new Ventilated seats. They both have touch screen Bose 5.1 system and the coupe has Navigation with no disc. It has a hard drive that is so much faster in operation. The BIG FUN is with the coupe and the sport chrono plus option. You can use the " LAUNCH CONTROL" !! It is AWESOME. When you start from a stop, use your left foot on the brake. Make sure that you have the Sport Plus button on, then put your right foot (on the gas pedal) to the floor. The second you floor it let up on the brake. The car will bring the rpm's up to about 6500 rpm and launch you! It is a rush! The Carrera S now has 385 HP with the Direct Fuel Injection! Anyone who wants to drive the new PDK is welcome to stop by and see me at Suncoast Porsche in Sarasota. The New Caymans and Boxsters will be coming out in the late spring of 09. Give me a call before you come in. Come in and see me. David C. Wilson [phone removed] x 2075 [phone removed] cell

waw serious ramble!!! its official :manual is dead dk reigns!! i have tested both 997`s in pdk and they are both fabulous i cant imagine any serious speed merchants prefering manuals over pdk -however good a driver you are you will be nowhere near a guy in a pdk porsche.trust me.

+1:banana::banana:

I'm with Chris, and no, I haven't driven the PDK but for some things I can do some reading on others observations and make some pretty reasonable conclusions: 1. Porsche states that PDK will predict 90% of the time what gear you want next. I had a 2004 Mercedes that I could say the same thing about its tranny. The problem was the other 10% of the time unfortunately. And I drove the early versions of BMW 's active steering. Great concept but it was not 100% predictable and therefore made one do constant steering corrections in corners to adjust your line. 2. Lots more parts to break, and when your warranty is gone, then what? I'd like to see some real world reliability figures first. 3. Unless I am in a timed contest, will I miss the saved time on the shifts? 4. Is anyone bragging yet about the time saved on the Nurburgring? I haven't seen anything yet....... 5. I'm paying what, $5K extra for something heavier, more complex, more prone to reliability issues? For me, it's not a technology I need just yet. I'm not refuting that others may find the attractions of PDK irresistable and is the next 'gotta have' option, I'm just not one of them.