an honest opinion on porsche - Page 4 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I agree totally. The standard 996 looks boring compared to a 993. The shape just seems to have evolved too far and has lost all the features, like the bulging rear wings, which gave it the character.

a lot of people on this forum won't disagree with you, but the techincal wizardry of a 996tt is still bound to impress if you prefer the older porsches, you are in luck - they are often cheaper than the newer ones (I have a 1991 model myself)

There's no denying that the 996 models are fantastic cars and are the benchmark others are judged by, they are just visually lacking in my eyes (like that matters!)

Very true... but we've still got the Porsche off road Mumbly-wagon to look forward to >> Edited by loudpedal on Thursday 8th August 15:00

You mean that hot rodded VW Tonka?

As a new porsche 996 targa owner what the 996tt?? is that the turbo 996? Any enlightenment gratefully received. Is the 996 turbo single or double an hence the tt?? Chears ears. James

996 turbo has twin blowers, hence calling it the tt. I think the 996tt is the best looking porsche ever - not that I don't love the other's, but It just looks so fluid, IMHO.

I see your 996tt and raise you a yellow GT3

True, Porsche do 'recycle' and combine old models to develop and produce world class cars. Take the 928 as a great example: From 1977 to 1996, Porsche constantly developed and upgraded it, producing a final car which takes a lot of beating today. Unfortunately one of the bad models was the Boxster: although this allowed a lot more people to be able to afford Porsche's, the external shape has been incorporated into the 911 (996), making the 996 less desirable: saying that, the 996 is a bit of a bargain being less than half the equivalent Ferrari or Aston (and a heck of a lot more reliable). Lets hope the new Porsche GT doesn't follow the Boxster shape!

While I am not a fan of the Boxster's looks either, I think calling it "one of the bad models" might be a bit harsh! I would go and test drive a Boxster S, but for the small point that it seems to have been designed by two different people, who both thought they were designing the front.

Unfortunately, I must agree with "alanpeets". I reached my limit this year when, looking into ordering a new 996 C4S, some of the "improved features" being touted for 2002 were a 12-speaker stereo system and better cup holders (!). And now they're building a truck (Cayenne)! I'm now looking for a Lotus Esprit. There are no cupholders in a Lotus.

You may also notice that TVR don't do cup holders. Apparently you have to be able to make a car first

They are playing a tune for their biggest market - the USA. You cant blame them for that - it is merely good business practise. Porsche had big cash flow problems ten years ago, they are healthy now and can continue to develop great cars like the GT3 and 996 turbo alongside the "bread and butter" stuff.

Well if there aren't any cup holders... how are the cars ever going to win anything in AutoExpress?!?!?

Good point Podie, although I doubt Porsche GB are that bothered. AE has always struck me as Autocar's poor cousin, blighted by faceless editorial and conjecture, with far too many pages devoted to spiel along the lines of "My 1991 Nissan Terrano makes a clonking noise when I turn right" bollocks and the like. As you can tell, I'm not a fan !

Auto Express is the William Woollard of the car mag market. As you say, panders to rep car choice dilemma crew and single mums complaining about how sharp the tailgate catch is. That said, they once reviewed a book I'd written and gave it five stars out of five, so they obviously know their onions PS Lotus don't do cupholders in the Esprit because cups hadn't been invented when the S1 was launched. In fact, I don't think hot beverages had been invented either, as 'fire' was an innovation at around the time of the S2. PPS What I'm saying is, IMHO you'd be daft to buy an Esprit. I looked into it before getting my RS, and even went around the factory. There's more modern technology in a Porsche toaster.

Ah, would that be "Colbeck's Guide to Servicing Your Lotus Carlton and Save £££'s" ? The pride of place on every cardigan budding home mechanics coffee table, no doubt, Domster Give Esprit a bit of credit as well mate - along with Range Rovers of yore they rid the parts bin of those hideous, mousetrap-esque door handles.

LOL Its working title was: 'How to win friends at your Vauxhall dealer and influence your bank manager' >> Edited by domster on Friday 9th August 11:24

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Just remember that one man's Fish is another man's Poisson. Personally I LOVE the looks of the Boxster and they've grown on me even further with familiarity. And its hardly one of the worst models.. Without it Porsche would have gone BUST! And they even admit that publicly these days.... Yep. Its not as exclusive as other "minority" sports cars....

I agree with Don, I actually think that a boxster is one of the best looking roadsters out there right now, especially with the roof down.

I think it would look better with exhausts on either side though. Saw a tuned one in a magazine with pipes each side and it looked awesome.

Yep, that would be nice

Have to agree with you. The 996TT is by far the best car I have ever driven and I have driven a few, I have said it before on here that I could have any car under £120k and the TT is the just awesome, the only downside for me was the quiet exhaust note, I now have a sports exhaust and it is just surperb. If you get to drive a TT you will understand.

Hey GTS we are with you on the 928 front ! No better value car in the world ! Are you on 928 GB http://groups.yahoo.com/group/928GB/ Log on and talk to some real Porsche owners ;-) Simon and Emma >> Edited by simonhamnett on Saturday 10th August 21:49

Porsche would have gone bust with continueing the production of the four- and eight-cylinder ranges. That's an economic point of view. The Boxter is a tribute to shareholder value, as it is the Cayenne. (See here ) The real Porsches are called simply 911 or 356, or are produced in small numbers to be used on track. However the 928 offers GREAT value 2nd hand, and never appears to be a lesser vehicle. nuff said. Bodo

No argument there Bodo. Just the 928 Owners like people to remember that the 928 was the first clean sheet big production "Porsche" we all know where the beetle range came from ;-). Far more crucially the price of second hand 928s is super low. Obviously they are completly PANTS ! Don't even consider a 928 ! S&M GTS & GTs dropping rapidy into OUR ptice range :-)

Seems to me that the 924/944 series of cars saved their sorry financial ass! Please define "real" >> Edited by k27 on Sunday 11th August 19:42

The expression real substitutes the impression of the genuine Porsche in this context. IMHO every Porsche manufactured is a brilliant vehicle, but none could beat the 911; even if it had a more powerful V8 in case of the 928. Originally the 928 should supersede the 911 in its early production years, but 911 sales figures did not fade. But it's not only what market desired; it's also the success the 911 and its derivates had in motorsports, which makes the 911 the one, to which every new Porsche will be compared to. Bodo

Why were they discontinued then? Bodo

They became too expensive, the Dm at the time was very high, this and the invasion of cheap Japanese sports cars. It is documented history that the 944 series was the biggest selling Porsche ever built, till the Boxster, is this a "real" Porsche. this car has never been campaigned in racing, but the 924, 944, 951 all have been factory raced, not real Porsches eh ? these cars could easily have out performed any 911 if they had been given the power and the time to develop. Funny how almost every part on my 951 has Porsche stamped on it and seven exterior Porsche badges. the fact that a model is no longer made hardly excludes it from claiming it's brand heritage, anything different is pure snobbery.

Hmmm - I think the 944 series of cars are known to out handle the 911 for rather obvious reasons Would have been nice if they could have stuck the flat-6 in a 944 - not sure if it would have fitted, anyone ever tried it??

Lets face it an EVO VII will out handle a 911/924/944/9..... but you won't find me hankering after one. The bottom line is, the 911 is an icon and one of the most distinctive automotive designs ever. Icons always owe a certain percentage of their status to good management and the 911 is no different.

k27, I don't know, what you're driving at, but I hope you respect my personal taste, as I respect yours. Why didn't Porsche dicontinue the 911 then, when it was "the 924/944 series of cars" which "saved their sorry financial ass!"? My records say, that Porsche 924, 944 and 968 with all its derivates make a third of the entire Porsche production (325.231 units). That makes me doubt about the 944 alone selling bigger that the 911. I already mentioned, that the Boxter appears to me as a shareholder value thingy. I was talking about success in motorsports, not just participating. Again, why were they disontinued instead of the 911? Porsche being thick? Or maybe the 911 is the precursor/teaser/image bearer for the Porsche brand or just every other model in the Porsche range? You may define this as 'real'. cheers, Bodo

I think everyone knows that fundamentally the 911 is not such a brilliant sportscar by design, although it has evolved to become a very good one. The main reason the 911 is *the* Porsche, and one of the all time great sportscars ever made is for one simple reason: character (or charisma, depending on what those words mean to you). I have owned a couple of 944s and liked them a lot, but you can really love a 911. It can be outhandled by an Evo 6, outdragged by a Cerbera and any modern supermini uses and lays out its interior space better. But 911s are special, for no particularly rational reason. I don't think anyone would deny the 924/944/968 line its heritage, even the Porsche tractors are fine by me. In fact, the 968 Turbo S would have been an amazing car if they'd have built it in some proper numbers. But I suppose they simply reached the final evolution with the 968 and felt that the next sub-911 Porsche needed to be mid engined and share componentry with its bigger brother to keep costs down. The result was the Boxster - which ironically is model number 986 AFAIK. In effect, the Boxster is the 944 of 2002. And no disrespect to it for that. >> Edited by domster on Tuesday 13th August 09:49

Dom, that's the nicest thing you've ever said about Boxsters in all the time I've been here Thank you. PS - Model 986 is correct. I've even found a 996 part number on ours - can't remember what though.

I like to keep the hairdressers happy now and again Shame you can't make Black Tie and Pie Greg - two and a half month's notice is fine for most people Rgds Domster PS That 996 part number is your whole front end, matey! >> Edited by domster on Tuesday 13th August 11:29

Yeah, BT & P is a bit of a swine actually, I was rather looking forward to that, but Florida beckons (again). I'll have to check the flight times, but I'm 99.9% certain I'll be gone by the 2nd. Front end is different (separate scoops on 2.5/2.7 for rads, third on S for oil cooler; 996 has one cut out on front valance, certainly until the facelift ?). Might be light units, thinking about it. They were pretty darn similar until 2002 MY changes.

I seem to recall that the RUF 3400S has a 911 engine in it... and as a result it is quicker than the 911, and due to the mid-engined layout, handles better too... read the RealDriver review... www.realdriver.com/road_tests/ruf_3400s/ruf_3400s.php

I have to admit that I am somewhat bemused by the fact that everyone here seems to want to slag off every other model than their own particular favourite. This is completely alien after 10 years in the TVRCC where there has never been any snobbery or elitism at all. Certainly from what I have read in this forum over the last week, I won't be seeking out Porsche clubs to join when I pick up my 993, as I imagine the story would be much the same. I wouldn't personally buy a Boxster, nevertheless to me there is no doubt it is still a fine car. Likewise with 996, 928, 944, 968, 964 etc (I might draw the line at 924s though, and I already had a 928). As a long time car enthusiast I can understand and respect why people do love those models, and I see nothing to gain in point scoring on details, or how 'real' something is. I'm afraid it says more about the owners than the cars

steve-p, they're just debating degrees of brilliance. 924 aside and one other VW related mistake, in my life time Porsche have never made anything other than superb cars. 928S4, 944 turbo (cabriolet was very pretty) and 968cs were particular highlights amongst the non-911s. But if you give someone a crayon and tell them to draw a Porsche, they'll draw something with a whale tail. The 911 and its derivatives are iconic.

I don't think 'everyone here wants to slag off every other model apart from their own particular favourite'. True, some PHers here are more 'protective' or 'enthusiastic' about their own car than other Porsche models, but that's just their opinion, and is rarely meant to be aggressive or combatitive. I don't think I've ever seen a genuine slagging off given or taken on PistonHeads, certainly not on this forum. Whenever a critical comment is made, it is normally with a smiley like this or this . In fact, one of the better aspects of PistonHeads is that it is a forum - a place for debate - and the standard is normally pretty high, with postings that are well-informed, and carefully formed. There may be certain lighthearted rivalry between owners of different models, but in my experience, this is no different from Chimaera owners 'vs' Griff owners or Vauxhall engined Caterhams 'vs' Rover K-series engined Caterhams. It doesn't mean these people will throw punches at the next meet, just that they enjoy discussing the minutiae of choosing one model of car over another one. And the humour on PistonHeads can seem quite personal at times, but is normally between posters who know each other. E.g. I may rib Jeremy C about his Cerbera, UV about his quota of hookers for the month or Greg about his Boxster, but I know these guys relatively well, and wouldn't make the same joke to first time posters who didn't know my sense of humour. I quite agree that snobbery has no place in car clubs, but light-hearted banter and rivalry does no harm as far as I can see. In fact, the banter part is quite enjoyable. So to assume PistonHeads is full of warring factions made up of separatist model-loyalists would be wrong. Interestingly, Ted and I once discussed splitting the forum into model specific sections, like with the TVR and Lotus forums, but I thought this would make the site poorer. We have every sort of Porsche driver on here, and all are welcome, from French students in their 944 cabs (where is Thom these days? ) through to Lee and company with brand new 996TTs. We all have a shared interest in Porsche, but we don't always need to think in the same fashion, or have the same opinions, so lively debate will be inevitable. I dare say that this forum would be more boring without it. Should you have any doubts about posters' true intentions, pop along to any PH meet where you will see owners of all sorts of diverse machinery getting on like a house on fire, respect given and taken along with the banter. I hope this lessens any sour taste that this thread may have caused.

Domster that sux ... I joined this forum of interllectual soldiers to be initiated into a warring faction made up of separatist model-loyalists, Now I' m gonna have to go off and search for another forum that will do this! I even bought the car for the same reasons! Now I'm gonna have to sell it and buy a Max Power Pug. I must tell you in honesty though, You are without a doubt more fun that the group of coders and developers I sit amongst here at the office! I would go stark raving mad were it not for the humour and banter here! I say KEEP IT UP!!! LONG LIVE PH!

Agree with you here, ATG and Domster! steve-p, everybody should be allowed to call sth. a real thing - no matter if it's based on irrational personal taste or on well argumented facts. There's no disrespect! Some people draw their line like a circle around the 911; others just straight at 924s Anyway, back to Porsche: I've compared n! different models, and came to the conclusion, that the most real ( + + ) is the 911 Carrera RS 2.7 Sport -everything else's sissy! ( + + ) Bodo

Bodo, that was the same conclusion Evo magazine came to, when trying to find the 'best driver's Porsche' ever, so you are in good company.

Domster's quite right about debate but I think it's worth mentioning the the sheer aura surrounding anything iconistic; any attempts to take the sheen off the 911's all round brilliance (as described in a million reviews) are to be expected. In a similar vein to Ferrari, the brand suffers from a reputation which precedes it's actual physical quality. In other words, people are naturally, out to better it. Certain TVRs may outrun certain 911s and certain EVO VI/VII variants may outgrip too; but little combines all disciplines so sublimely. And that indefinable 'je ne sais quoi' of simply 'being' in a 911 (like 'being' in a Ferrari) - well, let's just say experience is everything. Having sampled the delights of TVR, Tumble Dryer VII and plenty pork I can honestly say that it is the 911 which serves up by far the most drama: noise, handling, speed and overall fluttering in the darkest recesses of one's beer gut. I'm sure a modern Ferrari would equal or surpass these sensations from a different perspective but the 911 has been THE benchmark for 'x' years for good reason. And it's still probably King of the hill. If you're a real PHer, which most people obviously are, just as I believe having a TVR at some point is a 'right of passage', I think 911 ownership becomes an inevitable proposition if circumstances allow and passions run deep. Still, if you can, have both. ('Cos the Cerbera's the best looking hunk of metal on planet earth.) God I'm crap with bloody computers. Hate the sodding things. >> Edited by Derestrictor on Tuesday 13th August 16:14

I think it was David Vivian who said once (test driving an RUF for Evo I think, or was it last year's ECOTY ?) that if at all possible "...everyone should try and own at least one 911 at some stage in their life..." I will. Not now, but I will. Jest all you like about Boxsters, and given the hardware some of you chaps own in some respects I am not worthy, but you step inside it, and the leather smell hits you, you sink into the seat, and look through the wheel at the instrument binnacle. The largest dial is the rev counter. That sums up a Porsche to me - it's not some afterthought piddly instrument like it is in my Mercedes - it's there, and in yer face. It asks you to drive it. Even the engine sounds quite intoxicatingly good in standard form - and my engine is nearer to my ears than you 911 people

Always on hand, DeRestrictor old chap. A sit in the passenger seat of your 993 whilst you give the old right leg a stretch will suffice.....

Any car with a bigger revcounter than any other instrument is OK in my book. If it has sequential shift lights then so much the better! Derestrictor - I think you mean 'best looking chunk of plastic' when talking about the Cerby Strangely, the Cerb does nothing for me in the looks department. PS Greg - yes, the engine is nearer to you in a Boxster. But the exhaust pipes are shorter (and therefore louder) in a 911 >> Edited by domster on Tuesday 13th August 16:32 >> Edited by domster on Tuesday 13th August 16:34

ref bodo loving the 911 2.7 RS i love EVO mag & the issue they did on all the 911s and then voted the 2.7rs as the best was a great piece and it summed up this fab car. I love em and performance wise a neww 996 is not as quick, and only the brakes feel 30 yrs old compared to todays fast motors massive anchors. But one bit of that evo test annoyed the hell out of me, and that was the cost aspect. They used lord mexborough's rhd lightwight (or sport to use the correct desig)as a comparison then say you can pick up an RS touring for £30k. well you can just but it will be a left hooker and unless you are luckier than Kyle's hotpants it will be a hound dog in need of much fettling. Basically they made 1580 '73RS's but sod all in in RHD- 117 in fact. of which a mere 17 were lightweights, and not all 17 still exist, now these are worth big wedge like £100k min at the moment, but realy the seller can name his price especially if it has a history and all its original lightweight panels. I thought that concidering they were using a genuine rhd lightweight they realy should have made the cost bit a bit clearer and if they are using real rare stuff like genuine lightweights then real rare older 911s like the fantastic 1967 911R or one of its cousins ie the T/R or the S/T should have been in the test. The R has 210bhp (same as the 2.7 RS) but 200kg lighter than even the flyweight 73RS. When you hear the sound of that 2litre buzz box hit 8000rpm with stright through pipes and on carbs as you scurry up the road in a short wheel base 911 that is to me an icon. only the small matter of a £250k'ish' asking price is why I dont have one in my garage. (please excuse me if i ranted on a bit there i got slightly carried away) The iguana

You may do that here That EVO article sounds interesting! But all publications I got from the UK is C&SC is there any link to propable article online? Bodo

Absolutely, there's nothing wrong with banter and debate. Maybe you lot just need a referee occasionally to keep you honest

FAO GregE240 - I must say, the awesome success of the Boxster in reviews and sales is a shining example of Porsche's brilliance which - in all reality - and this is probably going to get me debagged and raddished by the 911 Stazi - we all know in our heart of hearts should be 'breathed on' a little more and it's only the marketing men who want to keep the 911 concept alive... As Gemballa's ad says (with ref to their silly upgrades) "You pass by, no-one knows why." Having said that, there's no doubt that there is something challenging about discovering the limits in a 911. The pendulous hand of doom is ever ready to introduce your vehicle to it's agricultural links and perhaps it is this very trait - more than owt else in any other car (except the Venturi or was it Renault A610?) - that channels and defines the myth. I swear, in my car, the very fact that it 'dares' you (even within my own meagre abilities) to push it further and further is a genuinely rewarding experience: symbiosis between driver and machine, the melding of confidence earned and proven design, a real fusion of twin desires; one to push further and further, the other, to live. Indeed, I have returned from jaunts during which I have probably explored no more than 50% of the car's capabilities but nevertheless which have rendered me speechless and chuckling like an inane imbecile. Let me put it this way. Every so often I get the urge to part-ex and buy the dream - a Diablo. In moments like this, even 'er indoors' hands me the keys and says go and sort yourself out. This happened a few weeks ago and I returned 30 minutes later fully revitalized in my enthusiasm for the thing and the sure knowledge that here, at last, was a car I could really call a super car and one that was basically a genuine classic (most 911s probably are, in fact). It's all a question of lust direction. Now, I need some imbibing fluid of Germanic fermentation. >> Edited by Derestrictor on Tuesday 13th August 18:56

Great post Derestrictor!! Now - let's sort out a test drive for the Lamborghini Diablo 6.0 - I'll buy if you will!

Hate to bore with production figures but..... 924-138,404 928-61,000 944-170,808 968-12,793 944 sales broke all model records for sales in 1984 with 26,539 units. total 911 pre 1973-83,126 911 74 to 77-41,054 911 78 to 83-67,477 911 83 to 89-80,684 911 94 to 95-35,904 911 turbo-29,279 914-118,976 The 911 may well be the definitive Porsche, but it is not the only Porsche. Some members of the board if they had had their way would have killed the 911 a long time ago. Some corporate decisions are difficult to fathom.

Hi im probably the youngest person here to set out a forum being how i acnt even drive yet haha but yet still if i wanted to i can get my hands on a porsche 914(if i wanted to).But I was wandering if anyone here has or owns a porsche 911 gt2. That car facinates me. I know im too young and too poor to ever be able to afford on. All porsches amaze me. Never seeing them is one of the only downsides to my small little town in the middle of nowhere(except for porsche boxsters) which are affordable to just about any old person who wanted to get into sports cars. Well it would be nice to here some great things about my favourite style car from some of you old timers haha

I'm glad the 911 wasn't killed off - even though the modern version isn't quite the car it once was. Just because I have a 944 S2 doesn't mean I wouldn't jump at the chance of owning a 911 - though I still think the 944 is the overall better sports car

Take a walk to your front door and look out onto your drive ..... See what I mean, It's an awe inspiring piece of machinery, a design and build that gets my primal juices going to a point that I feel almost "high" and, well childish ... I have owned my 964 for about ten months now and I still cannot get this smile of my face (may require surgery to remove it), I still shake like Kylie's nipple caps every time I get out of the car after a "spirited" meander through the local twisties and probably will until I get my next dopamine fix. I cannot think of anything, bar sex that could get one so utterly exhilirated... whether you drive a Porsche tractor (even they are beautifull) or a Porsche pedal car (again, pure delight to look at) you are going to driving the best super car is! Oh yes, Did I mention going to the door and looking out .. do it again! I'm going on a bit now arent I? Well, jsut for kicks Go look at it again!!! "I dont think Porsche is the best car around, I know it is!"

Don't be fooled, I joined PCGB six months ago and to date have not met one snob, even 996TT owners are cool! Leslie (964 C4)

All I can say Richard is that you must be getting some good sex....

How do I join? can you pass me details as I'm in Berkshire too. And I would like to think that I am a cool 996TT owner Cheers Lee

Lee. The PCGB can be contact via their club office: Porsche Club Great Britain Cornbury House Cotswold Business Village London Road Moreton in Marsh Glos GL56 0JQ 01608 652 911 Or at www.porscheclubgb.com - you can get e-mail contact details from there. I'm a member and my region is Berkshire...although I have to say I'm not a meeting goer. They are *exactly* like the TVRCC in that... 1) They arrange Track Days (fun!) 2) They arrange days out and meets 3) They have a monthly meet in a pub 4) Some regions are more active than others 5) They produce a monthly magazine (!??!) with a few useful adverts in it! Their annual big events are on a grander and more expensive scale than the TVRCC simply because they have more members and more money to lavish on them therefore... Although it is a Limited Company all the Directors are elected and are unpaid. (!) They *do* have a permanent staff of about eight, I believe.... That's all I can remember at the moment. If you fancy going along to a PCGB meet one time and want some moral support from another meeting newbie (these things can be a bit cliquey so its nice to know someone else is in the same boat and doesn't know anyone either...) I'll try and turn up in my 'S'....

Thanks for ther info Don, I will contact them about membership etc.. Rgds Lee.

as a sports car enthusiast i have alwys loved porshe the early 911 and 928 and even the 914 are all timeles classics.in the last 10 years though i feel porshe have ran out of ideas`all they keep doing is recycling the 911 which in my opinion is now a bland car`if one drives down the street people dont even bother to look at it like they did the old 911 with the wide wheel arches and lovely spoiler on the back this car had a prescence about it`the new ones dont. then they bring out the boxster which sounds like my wifes hair dryer as is goes along the road? again a car with no aura about it. i am not critisising the build quality of porches just the styling. its just my honest opinion.