Bearing Material in New Oil Change

Hi All, I'm so down in the dumps....I just picked up an '01 996 Coupe w/ a MT in Speed Yellow w/ 83K miles on it. The car passed its PPI and has a somewhat spotty service history but not terrible. IMS was done in '13 with AOS, RMS etc at approximately 43K miles. PPI revealed a leak at RMS and with IMS at service interval, I planned on having that done immediately. My car's been sitting at EPE in Natick, MA for 3 weeks now. I got a call almost immediately saying the camshaft deviation was 19 and they're not sure it makes sense to address IMS/RMS without sorting that out. They scoped the engine and it's not bore-scored, no codes are being thrown but after taking a look at the oil they're seeing what they believe the be bearing materials. Jerry the owner called me today with the ends saying the car needs serious internal motor work and advices I look to replace the engine. He didn't have any idea what it would cost to start tearing this apart and said there's no way to diagnose what's going on. I've owned this car for 100 miles at this point...What are my options here? What's the most cost-effective way to sort this out?

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Sorry to hear this... Well, just posted this in another thread, but its a possible answer to your question... Bringing this to a shop that doesn't know the 996 and its engine very very well will be a major nightmare for sure. As even good meaning non m96 mechanics don't realize the m96 is a one time use block, non rebuildable without very expensive re-engineering the block... Do not let anyone sell you a cheap not aluminum sleeved nik-sil block rebuild, unless your plan is to flip this car. Even then its a big gamble. Pretty much your only great choices would be a Hartech or LN rebuild 310-350whp..? whp that will cost $30-40,000 when all is said and done correctly by the installer. Or find a great 996 shop that can install a oem short block with reworked heads and all needed accessories, probably by the time you're done, still at 25-30k & 270-290whp. Well, this would be one of least expensive ways, with big power. supposedly turn key, drop it off and pick 450hp car up for $26,000. I would still do my due diligence on Renn27 as I know nothing more than from what I've read, sure sounds good.... buyer beware as always... https://www.renn27.com/components-an...rn-key-service

Sounds to me like they might not have the most experience working on these engines. I don�t believe it could have a cam deviation of 19 and not be throwing a code. Did he send you a picture of glitter in the oil? If it was me I would have them put everything back together pick it up and get it to a shop that has more experience. Also, did the PPI measure the cam deviations?

Thanks for the notes and condolences...EPE in Natick, MA is pretty highly regarded in the community. They havent given me much/any time on the phone and have had the car for 3 weeks now only to check bore-score and then pull the oil filter? Agreed re: Cam deviation - no idea how it could be 19 as +/- 6 I thought threw a code? I've found a few options that I'm exploring. I spoke to Don at EBS who is pulling together a quote for me. I also found Vertex sells rebuilt engines for $16K, I'm hesitant to give them any money because they're the ones that gave this car a clean bill of health... The Renn27 looks awesome but I wonder what that'll mean for the value of the car if I stick a 2.7 in there. Purists would obviously turn their noses up at it and I wonder how it'll affect long term appreciation.

Cam deviation of 20 is usually a VVT issue. If the variocam was properly locked when installed, then replacing the variocam actuator (the one closest to the chain) will fix this issue. Used oil analysis is the best way to monitor wear. If the car runs well, I would change the oil to M1 15W50(or DI50), go another 500-1000miles, and get another oil analysis done.

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Thanks Slakker - Should I suggest this to the owner/tech? They're throwing their hands up saying they can't really diagnose anything and throwing more money at this would be a waste? I wish I could trust them to figure this out on their own and diagnose it.

Don't believe it. How much has this car been driven in the last year? Has it been sitting for awhile? I'm with above, change the oil to a 10W-50 or even 15W-50, drive it 500-1000 miles, change the oil and take a sample. Cam deviations can be a number of things, but 19 degrees out and the engine would run like crap. What machine or software are they using for cam deviations?

DBJoe - I hope you're right! I've owned the car for a month....I understand it was driven periodically over the last year, not sitting for a long time. Whats the advantage of changing to the heavier weight oil? The engine runs great, thats why I'm surprised. I'm not sure what they're using for the computer to measure cam deviation. I can call and ask the guy - he's pretty short with me, very frustrating.

Just called, he asked "Hi Chris" and we went on to speak for 2 minutes, before he asked me to call back. Needless to say I'm annoying him at this point. He measured cam deviation with PIWIS tool. He did think the actuator could fix the cam deviation but then went on to say that we would still have an issue with the metallic issue in the bottom of the engine. He said they were magnetic but not IMS because of the color of the metal?

Remember, it is YOUR car. Get him to be more specific. What is the cam deviation on Bank 1 and Bank 2? Did they drop the oil pan and found these magnetic particles? Did they try to actuate the variocam actuator with 12V? It could be stuck. Heavier weight oil is what is now recommended for our engines.

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Agree

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Ya, that bothers me, metallic debris in sump, but not imsb..? Sure sounds like a 12 year old replacement imsb coming apart. IIRR cam deviation can be affected by a very worn imsb letting the shaft 'wobble' thus changing/making cam timing problems.. But that would mean the bearing is almost gone. As the amount of debris got the tech's attention enough for them to stop your job right then & there. I wouldn't discount that. If it were me, I'd make a unannounced trip to Natick and ask if you can see the sump plate. Take pics of it and the metal in it. He should humor you on this request as he's about to maybe get a $30-40,000 engine job from you. Not sure what other metallic components other than the imsb could shed metallic debris without being destroyed. Crank/rods/cams/oil pumps/gears/chains/lifters/pins, all are metallic, but not known to shed lots of metallic debris unless they are more or less destroyed...? He probably is right, something a lot more severe than cam dev is going on in there if there is truly lots of metallic debris in the sump... Go check it out, take pics of sump plate, post them... Hopefully they did not clean off the debris from the sump, at least not without pics. jmo

They found the debris in the oil filter plastic housing, he didn't drop the pan. I suggested that but said we wouldn't likely learn anything else new from all that and I'd incur additional expense. I will not be having them do the engine work nor does it seem like its something they're interested in. I'd likely have them drop the engine, I'd palletize it and ship off to LV for EBS to do a full rebuild with the nikasil cylinders and all that stuff. Got a quote for 14K for that rebuild and 3 months wait...

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If I owned a shop, I would not be interested in a $2,000 job on dropping and reinstalling the engine and ... 1) stuck with storage of a carcass for 3+ months, and 2) being responsible for an engine that I did not rebuild, and 3) being the last person that touches the car IF it does not run On the other hand, $14K for a rebuilt engine with Nikasil is a decent price. Although, you need to verify what are being replaced with that engine at the price. Porsche things tend to add up really fast and $14K does not allow a lot of parts to be replaced.

Here�s the quote and what�s being replaced.

The car had some major service done in 2017, still scratching my head here.

Magnetic particles in the oil != bearing material unless that bearing is the IMS, possibly other stuff? But not main/rod bearings. If they didn't drop the sump they didn't correctly check for bore scoring. I believe Vertex uses iron cylinder sleeves; do your own research but for my money that is a hard NO.

Hi @wdb How coul dit not be main/rod bearings? That's what the tech is saying thus the recco to replace the engine. 2. They assessed through the spark plugs, I know not the most complete approach. 3. Correct re: Vertex, understood.

Main and rod bearings do have a steel backing, but that is topped with copper and other materials. If that's the source of material in your case you have one of two things: 1) a severely worn bearing; 2) a spun bearing. Either one of those would exhibit other issues such as a lot of noise, or a big loss of oil pressure.

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i hav no noise and no loss of oil pressure. I�m at a complete loss as to what to do aside from get my car back from this mechanic and get a 2nd opinion. Oil filter from first oil change since I purchased.

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Chris, This sucks. If the IMS bearing was replaced with an LN Engineering bearing, it should be registered on the LN bearing website. If it isn't then you could pull the transmission and look at the bearing to confirm if it is or isn't the source of the metal bits. In any case, based on this picture alone, it may be academic to know if it is the IMS bearing. The guys at the shop who are not showing you any love...sounds like they have seen this issue so many times that they have given up explaining their conclusions.

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Ya, don't blame ya... After trying to decipher those invoices and estimate, seems lots of work was done. Head was replaced along with a slew of other parts. Be nice to know if this repair was the usual cracked head/water pump 996 syndrome or something else. On to your rebuild estimate. From the parts list one can tell what type of build they intend to do. Most important thing I see, and there are alot.... The block seems to be getting "plate cylinders/cases to stock" on second page of your estimate near the bottom of page. This means no cylinder sleeves will be used . Direct platting onto the loc-sil cylinders. On the much beefier Boxster 2.7 cylinders, direct platting can be done says Charles from LN. As we've discussed this exact process in detail. Charles(LN) says they can not direct plate the much thinner 996 cylinders because of block structure failure causing out of round and taper. He explained how the actual composition of the loco-sil changes with the silicone molecule being displaced iirr... This block structure failure will not hold up with direct platting, LN said they've tried and it doesn't hold up. I believe him, as they do direct plate the 2.7, but not the 3.4 or 3.6. Hartech also use to direct plate the 996 & adding a support ring machined into the top of the cylinders to add structure/support.. They stopped doing this also and now only use sleeves. I've talked to Millennium Technologies one of the premier cylinder nik platers, they've done work for me in the past. They do work for LN. They will plate the 996 cylinders if no damage is present, but no warranty. For about the same money on your estimate. I'd recommend to stay away from direct platting the 996 cylinders as the biggest m96 builders have tried that and gave up on it for a reason. But if you do go that route please keep us informed as I'm very interested in the durability of this repair, especially without a structure support ring machined into the top of cylinders. One other thing about the estimate/parts list. There is absolutely no way to know what they'll need to do without disassembly tear down and measuring everything. Good chance with metallic debris floating around your engine the crank will be toast. Thats $6k new, 4k for a good reconditioned crank if you can find one. High mile 996 heads are known to have valve guide/seat problems that can destroy an engine. if a seat falls out like they are prone to do on some heads this can cause big problems on your new engine. Also water pump impeller pieces are known to lodge in small cooling passages on 996.1 heads causing hot spots/cracks. IIRR, Len Hoffman(996 head specialist) has a fixture and does a back flush to dislodge any impeller pieces out of the head, iirr all his 996 heads get new seats/guides. Any build that doesn't address new seats/guides is missing a known mode of 996 failure. A regular valve job like in your estimate doesn't cut it for a m96. Lots of other little things that make me scratch my head also, like only 1 scavenge pump is on the parts list when the 996 has 2 scavenge pumps..? Bottom line, that estimate very likely will get blown out of the water once they get the engine torn down. Be ready for that. The m96 engine builds have been around for a long long time as its 25 years old engine with many modes of failure. LN & Hartech/Slaker address all the 996 engine problems with a proven track record. Yes it will cost ya, but as many have found out, there is no short cut to a dependable m96 engine... and a lot have tried. imo,

I have a Renn27 kit that should be in this Friday. 2002 Targa with a hole in the timing chain housing at 73k miles. I will document the swap and share information when we get it going.

@allcool Excellent/Accurate/Knowledgeable advice .....