Potential issues tuning 997.1 turbo - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi chums, I'm thinking of tuning my gen 1 turbo, and having used the search function on here I haven't had my question answered, so please no flaming. I have read anecdotes describing issues with overheating of the vtg turbos in the 997, and possibly the need for upgraded intercoolers and also, a thread where people were confidently asserting that if you tuned it with a remap and exhaust (all I plan, really, unless intercoolers are a must) then you would somehow end up with a car that goes "0-300kph" slower than standard...how, btw? Does the Ecu compensate for the tune and wind it back? Basically I would like some help please on what to do. My car is in getting a better clutch and new coolant hoses ready for anything I might be doing to it. Also, hi! This must be the first time I've posted on here in 4 or 5 years and I've been a member for nearly 15 crikey..

You've an expensive 911 , so my advice would be take it to one of the very well established Porsche Specialists who have done similiar work many times before. Maybe pick one you've used before or that is near to where you live, The important aspect IMHO is having done it before.

Several tuners have got this down to a fine art Minimax, so if you go to a reputable 911 turbo tuner you will have no problems, you can unlock a lot of potential in the engine, only limit really is your wallet Were are you in the country?

Thanks for the replies guys I'm in County Durham, I've used the Performance Centre before and they say their RR setup is ideal for 4wd Porsche's (and other 4wd's) as it runs all four wheels or somesuch...I was a little worried when they didn't mention anything about upgrading the intercoolers which all sorts of forums mention.. there are no Porsche specialist guys up here so far as I know, dms are 6 hours away :/ big fish in Middlesbrough possibly? I was wondering if someone on here might have had experience of tuning one of these personally but I thank you for your input Edited for punctuation

9e in Horley or ES Motors in Milton Keynes. Your engine costs £40,000. Maybe do yourself a favour and make sure you don't need a new one by going for a cheap tune? 997 turbo trickier to tune properly and you're right most tunes on them allow one hard run and then after 0-300kph slower than stock due to heat soak.

Some vids of their tuned cars running a few days ago at VMAX on this thread but you'll need to sign up on 911UK http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=123261

Desert Dragon said: 9e in Horley or ES Motors in Milton Keynes. Your engine costs £40,000. Maybe do yourself a favour and make sure you don't need a new one by going for a cheap tune? 997 turbo trickier to tune properly and you're right most tunes on them allow one hard run and then after 0-300kph slower than stock due to heat soak. Yes I agree the tuning of this needs to be approached carefully, hence my general trepidation with the local guy (although he works wonders with VAG diesels tbf) How and why would the car revert to less than stock simply because of heat soak? How does that affect things? Does this occur only on 0-186mph runs or can it happen at any time? I've never heard of any car resetting or counteracting a tune just because of heat soak so I'm curious. My Q5 is tuned and has no issues, my Elise has a hand built racing engine and has mega heat soak issues but they don't make the emerald Ecu misbehave..curious

It's all down to the fact that Porsche are the only manufacturer out there who use variable geometry turbos on their higher end turbo models. The vanes opening and narrowing (to help reduce lag) cause much more back pressure and heat than conventional turbos. So a 997.1 turbo with a tune will heat soak round a track very quickly with a bad tune. Same with VMAX type runs. Even a stock 997.1 turbo will heatsoak with track work. I forgot to mention a guy called Rick at Unicorn Tuning in Manchester. He owns a 997.1 turbo and I've seen the logs of his car at a VMAX type event and they are spot on. About £1800 and he's very good and a 997 turbo enthusiast. [email removed] On road never going to happen unless you do a lot of autobahn driving

Good explanation thank you I will email Rick as I work in Leeds so that's not a great distance to travel..I see what you mean about autobahn speeds..

Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. This is why non Porsche tuners like DMS who don't know what they're doing get away with murder. All of this applies to 997.2 turbos and 991 turbos too as well as high end 718 S which also have VTG turbos. Edited by Desert Dragon on Tuesday 3rd October 13:34

Desert Dragon said: Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. I was also told this applies equally to 996 turbos too. The ECU will also sense fuel octane. Very sophisticated things. A nearer option for the OP may be Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards. He sorted out the re-map on my car which was necessitated by a poorly executed one which I initially did not know was on there (I'd bought the car as 'original' spec).

Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. I was also told this applies equally to 996 turbos too. The ECU will also sense fuel octane. Very sophisticated things. A nearer option for the OP may be Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards. He sorted out the re-map on my car which was necessitated by a poorly executed one which I initially did not know was on there (I'd bought the car as 'original' spec). Nope completely different which makes 996 turbo far easier to tune I think Wayne better generally on other stuff. For the 997 whilst I hear good things about him I'd go for someone like the guys already previously mentioned.

Re 996 turbo though I'd still avoid like the plague a general tuner like DMS or Revo etc. Manthey, 9e, ESM, Cargraphic are the best for 911 turbos and GT3/GT2 as they focus on the marque

Desert Dragon said: Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. I was also told this applies equally to 996 turbos too. The ECU will also sense fuel octane. Very sophisticated things. A nearer option for the OP may be Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards. He sorted out the re-map on my car which was necessitated by a poorly executed one which I initially did not know was on there (I'd bought the car as 'original' spec). Nope completely different which makes 996 turbo far easier to tune I think Wayne better generally on other stuff. For the 997 whilst I hear good things about him I'd go for someone like the guys already previously mentioned. I have it on extremely good authority about 996 octane sensing. Won't say who, but 100% sure what they explained. Would agree about being best going to the real experts though. If it were me I think it'd be 9e or ES.

Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. I was also told this applies equally to 996 turbos too. The ECU will also sense fuel octane. Very sophisticated things. A nearer option for the OP may be Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards. He sorted out the re-map on my car which was necessitated by a poorly executed one which I initially did not know was on there (I'd bought the car as 'original' spec). Nope completely different which makes 996 turbo far easier to tune I think Wayne better generally on other stuff. For the 997 whilst I hear good things about him I'd go for someone like the guys already previously mentioned. I have it on extremely good authority about 996 octane sensing. Won't say who, but 100% sure what they explained. Would agree about being best going to the real experts though. If it were me I think it'd be 9e or ES. Yes the 996 ECU has built in safeguards but it's like comparing a BBC computer to a modern MacBook. For tuning I think most of us wish the 997 turbo had the 996 turbos ECU

Fascinating a good explanation as to why they revert to slower than standard and makes sense I suppose. I've emailed rick to see what he says and will report back

Worth watching this too. Even Porsches flagship turbo models suffer heat soak straight out the box. If you live in Dubai or anywhere hot like it you'll struggle to get more than 550bhp out of a 997 GT2 RS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETu9q1qZIWY

I've seen first hand at a runway event some of the ES motor stuff. Never heard of them before. Very impressive. 200mph in half a mile. 9E very good rep. Fearnsport I trust implicitly but I don't know what they offer for a 997 turbo.

Desert Dragon said: Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. I was also told this applies equally to 996 turbos too. The ECU will also sense fuel octane. Very sophisticated things. A nearer option for the OP may be Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards. He sorted out the re-map on my car which was necessitated by a poorly executed one which I initially did not know was on there (I'd bought the car as 'original' spec). Nope completely different which makes 996 turbo far easier to tune I think Wayne better generally on other stuff. For the 997 whilst I hear good things about him I'd go for someone like the guys already previously mentioned. I have it on extremely good authority about 996 octane sensing. Won't say who, but 100% sure what they explained. Would agree about being best going to the real experts though. If it were me I think it'd be 9e or ES. Yes the 996 ECU has built in safeguards but it's like comparing a BBC computer to a modern MacBook. For tuning I think most of us wish the 997 turbo had the 996 turbos ECU I can imagine! Variable turbos alone must throw a whole load into the mix. In it's day the 996 turbo was a very, very advanced piece of kit, so I guess progress etc. the 997 was a step beyond.

Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Digga said: Desert Dragon said: Sorry forgot to mention 997 turbo has a very sophisticated ECU. The minute it senses knock, high intake temps or high exhaust gas temps it retards timing to protect the engine. I was also told this applies equally to 996 turbos too. The ECU will also sense fuel octane. Very sophisticated things. A nearer option for the OP may be Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards. He sorted out the re-map on my car which was necessitated by a poorly executed one which I initially did not know was on there (I'd bought the car as 'original' spec). Nope completely different which makes 996 turbo far easier to tune I think Wayne better generally on other stuff. For the 997 whilst I hear good things about him I'd go for someone like the guys already previously mentioned. I have it on extremely good authority about 996 octane sensing. Won't say who, but 100% sure what they explained. Would agree about being best going to the real experts though. If it were me I think it'd be 9e or ES. Yes the 996 ECU has built in safeguards but it's like comparing a BBC computer to a modern MacBook. For tuning I think most of us wish the 997 turbo had the 996 turbos ECU I can imagine! Variable turbos alone must throw a whole load into the mix. In it's day the 996 turbo was a very, very advanced piece of kit, so I guess progress etc. the 997 was a step beyond. Very similar cars. For me the 996 turbo/GT2 probably the water mark of the 911 turbo models in terms of driving dynamics. 997 just a bit more refined maybe too refined. Both still relative bargains in this crazy market. Here's one Fearnsport prepared. 3.8l forged build + GT 3076 turbos running at VMAX a few weeks ago. I'll let the owner who I've had correspondence with comment re experience. The cars being run in low boost mode and still looks fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAWrm6D9j6U

minimax said: Fascinating a good explanation as to why they revert to slower than standard and makes sense I suppose. I've emailed rick to see what he says and will report back Any news? How did you get on?

Rick was mega helpful and I have ordered some gt2 intercoolers, they're being made and when I have them we're going to give it a red hot go - maybe water injection too

Keep us updated in terms of how you get on with Rick, Unicorn etc. Would love to see some performance stats like 60-130 mph, 0-100mph and 100-200kph once you've got it done. The water injection sounds interesting. Is that a misting system spraying water directly on to the intercoolers like the new 991 GT2 RS or an Aquamist WMI kit you're thinking about? Sounds fascinating, maybe start build thread?

minimax said: Hi chums, I'm thinking of tuning my gen 1 turbo, and having used the search function on here I haven't had my question answered, so please no flaming. I have read anecdotes describing issues with overheating of the vtg turbos in the 997, and possibly the need for upgraded intercoolers and also, a thread where people were confidently asserting that if you tuned it with a remap and exhaust (all I plan, really, unless intercoolers are a must) then you would somehow end up with a car that goes "0-300kph" slower than standard...how, btw? Does the Ecu compensate for the tune and wind it back? Basically I would like some help please on what to do. My car is in getting a better clutch and new coolant hoses ready for anything I might be doing to it. Also, hi! This must be the first time I've posted on here in 4 or 5 years and I've been a member for nearly 15 crikey.. So, this is exactly what you need, stop, call either esmotor or 9excellence. Some extra mods I would do, that they don't usually advise, would be suspension, save and get tractive coilovers and dsc sport module, best thing ever, will change your whole car. Do a nice geo alignment, like in center gravity. Another very important bit, is to PIN the coolant lines, don't just change them, pin them (see sharwerks article about it in their site). For intercooler, either go with 997.2 intercoolers (sometimes called gt2 rs intercoolers), they are the best available for less than 4k (maybe more), they are cheap, but they do suffer from leaks in the end tanks, fixable (glue and something more, there is a thread either on rennlist or 6speed). Another very popular option lately has been do88, that has a full kit with intercoolers, rubber pipes, plenum, for a nice price and their intercoolers are apparently very good, at least as good as the 997.2. Then if you want big power, do rods and change turbos but by there, either tuner will be more able to help you than me or pretty much any pistonheader. Good luck and enjoy.

1000bhp 997.1 turbo