996 turbo or 996 4s for first 911 - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi I've been thinking about a 911 for a while now and have driven a 996 turbo from Paragon ( wow ;-)))) head hit the head rest on road test ) stunning car but start at about 25k for a good one which is at the top of my budget. Would a 4s be a better starting car and then move up to a turbo as these see to start at about 16k Have driven lots of Ferrari's , TVR's , ect for work ,but the porsche would be a weekend toy. Any thoughts on owner ship Thanks Matt

996 turbo has an amazing engine, not flawed like the std one (bit harsh I know) if you can afford it, for me, it's a no brainer. TURBO! It will the the classic of the 996 range.

Well 955Matt, your name would suggest that you should be looking at a Cayenne?

Of course im not trying to point you to my C4S (18.5k) that is for sale at the moment in classifieds but for your price range then a C4S seems to be the option. If you had the budget then of course a Turbo is the one to go for.

Turbo. I love my C2 but wish I had gone for the Turbo straight away.

Got to be a Turbo - if you buy a C4s your always wish you had bought the Turbo.

Turbo for me when I was faced with the same choice in 2006. Since you mention budget, consider cost of ownership over a couple of years say. The 4S is likely to drop more than the turbo will apart from anything else and I suspect that running costs could be higher too once you've had the obligatory RMS done, never mind if you're hit by bore scoring etc. But apart from the sensible stuff above, the turbo is a proper performance great, a proper race derived engine you can be proud to own and just massive fun. SM

The Turbo out of the two, personally as weekend toy I would get something 2wd.

I don't think you would be dissapointed with either if you get a good example. If going fast in a straight line is your thing then save some more money and get a good turbo. The mezger block in a turbo is near bombproof but the ancillaries which boost it are not. Turbo failures, stuck actuators, DV valves, boost leaks, heat shields are all common sources of bills in a turbo which can mount up. In a 4S its the possible IMS or bore scoring engine work that could create a shocking bill. Other weaknesses - brake corrosion radiator and condensor leaks are common to both models. Opinion on looks is personal - some like the turbo intakes others will prefer the clean lines of the 4S and the iconic rear reflector look. In a straight line a manual turbo is mental fast - even more so with a remap...but its identical to a C4S in a corner so on a twisty B road there is little in it - the 4S power delivery being more easily modulated. A C4S will see you with no license in 10 seconds of throttle, 8 seconds in a turbo. If you like exhaust very little gets close to a 4S with PSE. If you don't a standard turbo is very subdued. I don't really see a 4S as a stepping point to a turbo but maybe others have done that? Best of luck whatever - buy on condition.

I have had my 2002 manual Turbo for 3 years and 18000 miles and it's a brilliant all round car, I hope never to have to sell it. I have never driven a C4S so I can't compare the two but if it was me and I bought a C4S I know I would be driving it thinking I wish I had gone for the Turbo. However finances play a very important part so I would go for the Turbo if you can afford a proper car otherwise go for the C4S and always buy on service history and condition not on mileage, and get an inspection done by someone like Peter Morgan or your local independent.

Surely it comes down to what you prefer driving? As somebody mentioned above, a C2 may suit you better than either if it's to be a weekend toy. You could pick up a corker with your budget & before all the naysayers start on the 'chocolate' engines you could probably find a Hartech rebuilt one within budget. I debated a C4S before buying my C2 as I love the looks, just didn't fancy all that extra weight & couldn't personally see the point of the 4WD, never regretted my decision & have never wanted a Turbo (a GT3 on the other hand...).

Thanks for the replys, now a bit more confused then ever really as I hadn't thought about a C2 . I must admit a turbo is top of the list and will potentially lose less money but is a lot of money for a weekend car. Did think about an RS4 Audi or a BMW M3 . So many cars so many options C2, Targa ,C4 ,C4S , Turbo , but must be a 2+2. Time to have a think. Cheers Matt

Don't forget the Maser Gransport and or 456 for weekend style in a 2+2.

M3 CSL?

a normally aspirated 996 is a great car-- I loved my C2. If you have driven a turbo and still are not sure then maybe a turbo isn't for you. HOWEVER it could be that you really didn't make the most of it on your test-drive. I thought my turbo was good when I first got it---but I have now had it for 4 weeks. They it is incredible. I will get shouted down bit do not dismiss a Tiptronic. The gearbox is very clever and intuitive. when you do go for a blast they are great on the twisty B roads.

I have just dipped my toe into the water and bought a 60k 996 turbo for money right inside your budget! Ok it had some issues but i was able to point these out to the dealer and get 5k off the asking price, as a Jaguar tech these cost me under £500 quid in parts to fix. My main goal was to preserve my capitol and i dont think 996 turbo's are going to get much cheaper.

Classictoolbox said: I have just dipped my toe into the water and bought a 60k 996 turbo for money right inside your budget! Ok it had some issues but i was able to point these out to the dealer and get 5k off the asking price, as a Jaguar tech these cost me under £500 quid in parts to fix. My main goal was to preserve my capitol and i dont think 996 turbo's are going to get much cheaper. 5k off asking price!!!!!!!!! they have a healthy markup then!

I bought a C4S in 2004, loved it and especially the exhaust note but then bought a 996 turbo 9 months later. I should have gone for the turbo straightaway.

I've ran a C4S for 4 years now, it's fabulous to throw around the lanes. I also like turbos, but they're very different cars. I wanted very fast sports car and a manual NA car delivers this very well. I haven't driven a manual turbo, only a tip (I don't like that box) and they're amazingly fast. If you're worried about the figures or love straight line performance, get the turbo. If you're happy with 5 second 0-60 type sports car performance you might find an NA car is enough.... Try them both as the engines have quite different characteristics, gearbox choice is also key, There's a big difference in noise as well (but that's a minor consideration).

blueSL said: I bought a C4S in 2004, loved it and especially the exhaust note but then bought a 996 turbo 9 months later. I should have gone for the turbo straightaway. The irony is everyone who buys a turbo then trys to make it sound like an N/A

I bought my 996 C4S just over a year ago. I didn't buy a turbo as I don't like the power delivery, and have a bike when I really want to scare myself. The Turbo's are great straight line blasters, but the 4S is the same car underneath just without the turbo engine. Mine has had the exhaust mod ( Gundo hack) and sounds amazing and is plenty fast enough for me. Some folk worry about the engine worries in the NA cars, but a Turbo can easily cost you the same in upkeep as previously posted. If a Turbo is at the top of your budget, then you'll have no fettling fund to keep it tip top. If you buy a 911, have a fund available at all times, they aren't cheap to run. A good one could run for years with no costly repairs, others could cost you thousands very quickly.

Bought my first 911 996 C4S earlier this year. For me it does everything I need. Power, great looks, fantastic noise (PSE) and a perfect weekend car. I have read many posts suggesting the Turbo is the one to get, and that's fine, it's boils down to your own requirements / budget. 2.5 months and 400 miles in, I still have a permanent smile.

I've had both and now have a 997tt . The 996 C4S was a wonderfully 'rounded package' and is very hard to compare to the super quick 996tt....despite similar appearances they are very different animals. I would say never consider a 996C4S without the PSE - the aural delight is unbeatable and a turbo will always sound bland by comparison. 996tt is bone crushingly quick but having owned both its not all about the speed - its about handling, feel, noise, balance etc and the C4S has all that ..........turbo very quick if a touch soulless(but still awesome).(C4S must have had the rear main seal replaced) Either would delight you but don't buy a turbo simply on the basis that its quicker.

Have just been out in a C4S with PSE wow what a lovley noise, car looked great from the outside and drove fine until you looked on the ramp . One rear tyre down to the canvas on the inner edge, RMS dripping oil, o/s/f radiator leaking , corroded brake disc's on the inner face and a heavy clutch. :-0000 Never mind I have a Targa to look at next , low mileage last owner 9 years and full opc history and the right colour combination. I think a Turbo is out of reach for the moment as it would leave me with no spare money. Cheers Matt

Some very considered and sensible replies. If you want a fully sorted and maintained C4S Cab give me a shout via pm. Good luck with your search....

955matt said: until you looked on the ramp . One rear tyre down to the canvas on the inner edge, RMS dripping oil, o/s/f radiator leaking , corroded brake discs on the inner face and a heavy clutch. :-0000 Cheers Matt Pretty standard faults on a 911 I'm afraid - as they say you have to kiss a lot of frogs! It took me about six months to find my current 4S and even then my OCD required the wheels to be refurbed new carpets, fresh discs and pads and new condensors. The important thing to know is what is consumable and can just be replaced - how that affects what you are willing to pay and buy on the condition of the car excluding the consumables you can easily replace. I bet you never see a 996 without some corrosion on the inner disc faces. The more you look at closely the better idea you will get of what a good one looks like - there is a HUGE variation in the condition of cars out there all similarly priced. Good luck.

I bought a 996 C4S a month ago. Got a pre purchase inspection, service and MOT by an OPC even though it was bought from an independent. Prior to purchase, the selling garage fitted 4 Bridgestone N rated tyres and a couple of other bits to get it through the MOT. Even so, I still put on new pads and discs all round after I got the car. I did the work myself and got Pagid parts from ECP for around £160 per axle. My clutch is a little heavy too but not as heavy as a few I've tried in the past. this will be something I'll deal with in the short to medium term. Sachs clutch for a C4S can be had for £295. My view would be that tyres, clutches and rakes are all wear and tear items and could / should be done by the selling garage if it gets picked up by a PDI. They aren't the end of the world. More important is to have an engine which is dry which means no leaks or weeps which could prove costly to deal with.

Hi Matt955, I bought a 996 Turbo from Paragon just under a year ago and like you, buying it meant using all my budget. Paragon assured me that their intention was to service the car and replace consumables so nothing would need replacing for the first 12 months (so no other outlay!). I paid 'strong' money for my car but I have to say that Paragon have been brilliant. There have been a couple of things go wrong. Lower arm was knocking (replaced under goodwill gesture), front rad split (changed under warranty). I've covered 7000 miles in the time I've had it, and apart from fuel and a pair of rear tyres (due to a nail), it's cost nothing. I'm getting it serviced next month however, maybe that will give a clearer idea of ownership cost. Both the Turbo and C4S seem quite complex and therefore, going forward will cost similar sums when things go wrong. For that reason, and the possible engine issues on the C4S, I'd go with a turbo. They're bloody brilliant! Regards DD.

doggydog33 said: Hi Matt955, I bought a 996 Turbo from Paragon just under a year ago and like you, buying it meant using all my budget. Paragon assured me that their intention was to service the car and replace consumables so nothing would need replacing for the first 12 months (so no other outlay!). I paid 'strong' money for my car but I have to say that Paragon have been brilliant. There have been a couple of things go wrong. Lower arm was knocking (replaced under goodwill gesture), front rad split (changed under warranty). I've covered 7000 miles in the time I've had it, and apart from fuel and a pair of rear tyres (due to a nail), it's cost nothing. I'm getting it serviced next month however, maybe that will give a clearer idea of ownership cost. Both the Turbo and C4S seem quite complex and therefore, going forward will cost similar sums when things go wrong. For that reason, and the possible engine issues on the C4S, I'd go with a turbo. They're bloody brilliant! Regards DD. DD, you chose the same route as me but with a different Indy. I went with RSJ, who like your experience with Paragon, have just been fantastic people to deal with. I too spent all my budget on the purchase, but true to RSJ's word, didn't need to do anything other than drive it. That didn't stop me getting some Center Gravity handling love applied though just for good measure. In my case I have covered 4000 miles, again had one rear tyre replaced due to damage and a radiator under warranty even though there was a strong possibility it had been clouted by a stone. It is just a fantastic car to drive. OP, I don't think you can go wrong with either model provided you get a good example. The previous replies in this thread are absolutely spot on. Buy one , drive one, enjoy owning one. Mike

Mikep240, I had some work done on one of my previous cars by Chris when He was just starting up. He did a fantastic job and I'm glad to see he's gone from strength to strength. Was there a noticable difference before and after? Was it just a geo or did he replace stuff. OP, Sorry for the thread hijack! Regards, DD

So had a look at a targa today, wow very clean 60 k last owner 8 years and full porsche service history. Blue with black and a manual. Only thing is I'm not sure on the what sort of money these are worth it's a 53 plate with 2 owners. Will need the n/s condenser and has a small patch of lacquer missing from the front bumper but that's about it. Any ideas thanks Matt

Depends if trade or private? If private maybe £16k. If it's trade add three grand??

16K is the asking price, are the roof's as bad as they say. It worked fine and didnt rattle on road test. Matt

LordHaveMurci said: Surely it comes down to what you prefer driving? As somebody mentioned above, a C2 may suit you better than either if it's to be a weekend toy. You could pick up a corker with your budget & before all the naysayers start on the 'chocolate' engines you could probably find a Hartech rebuilt one within budget. I debated a C4S before buying my C2 as I love the looks, just didn't fancy all that extra weight & couldn't personally see the point of the 4WD, never regretted my decision & have never wanted a Turbo (a GT3 on the other hand...). I agree with the driving comment. I bought the 4s,prefer the looks tbh,clean lines and no ugly arch scoops.plus budget.the car drives lovely but after owning turbo cars since my 2nd car I do miss boost badly.and wish I could get one to a degree

Deal done now own my first Porsche a 996 c2 Targa , best car I found in my budget and stunning to look at and drive. Not a C4s or Turbo I know . Many Thanks Matt

955matt said: Deal done now own my first Porsche a 996 c2 Targa , best car I found in my budget and stunning to look at and drive. Not a C4s or Turbo I know . Many Thanks Matt Congrats, Matt. Upload a pic or two...

Hope these come out Matt

Very smart. Lapis?

..Interesting decision.. I had the same choice a few years back after my 7.1GT3, I went with a C4S, as I like atmo's, no it's not as fast as a burto, but it sounds so much better with the PSE, it has the same grip, suspension and brakes and for the most part it's plenty fast enough, handles really well and you can use all the power all the time including in the wet.. which you can't in a turbo..! the C4S is about half the running costs too without the turbos/intercoolers/plumbing needing replacing.. You won't be disappointed with either, but it's £6-8K more for a GOOD turbo + double maintenance costs, bigger insurance number and no induction noise, I don't think it's worth it..

doggydog33 said: Mikep240, I had some work done on one of my previous cars by Chris when He was just starting up. He did a fantastic job and I'm glad to see he's gone from strength to strength. Was there a noticable difference before and after? Was it just a geo or did he replace stuff. OP, Sorry for the thread hijack! Regards, DD DD, yes, mainly due to the fact that I asked for more connectivity with the chassis. What I wanted was less 'how hard do I have to push the rear end on this before it lets go and what happens when it does?' I was looking for more rear end steering, with lots of bite from the front. Chris gave me this, but went a touch too far, so I re-visited and he got it right. I'm running zero toe at the front, 5 minutes of toe per side at the rear, 1.30' at the rear and 51' on the front. He added 7mm spacers at the front and the best bang-for-buck mod in the world, RSS engine mounts! Mega transformation. The first time CG set it up, I was down at 1.04' camber at the rear which was mightily entertaining but wore the outer edges of the tyres too much. What a hoot to drive though!! The PSM had the throttle off me four times during one 40 mile cross country blast, which was a little too much. Now the car is beautifully balanced but very quick steering. The rear still slides due to the minimal toe settings. A good compromise. I now don't have to wonder where the limits are, I can feel them approaching. OP, sorry to crash your thread, congrats on the C2!!! Mike

Thanks for the info Mike Regards, DD.

Cobalt blue 996 targa , like hens teeth. very nice,

RatBoy M3CSL said: ..Interesting decision.. I had the same choice a few years back after my 7.1GT3, I went with a C4S, as I like atmo's, no it's not as fast as a burto, but it sounds so much better with the PSE, it has the same grip, suspension and brakes and for the most part it's plenty fast enough, handles really well and you can use all the power all the time including in the wet.. which you can't in a turbo..! the C4S is about half the running costs too without the turbos/intercoolers/plumbing needing replacing.. You won't be disappointed with either, but it's £6-8K more for a GOOD turbo + double maintenance costs, bigger insurance number and no induction noise, I don't think it's worth it.. Double maintenance costs? - Is that just a guess or have you actually seen some comparisons. My servicing costs at indi haven't been much more on my turbo than they were on my previous C2. Bigger insurance number? - not necessarily so. Mine worked out cheaper on turbo than it was on C2!

955matt said: Hi I've been thinking about a 911 for a while now and have driven a 996 turbo from Paragon ( wow ;-)))) head hit the head rest on road test ) stunning car but start at about 25k for a good one which is at the top of my budget. Would a 4s be a better starting car and then move up to a turbo as these see to start at about 16k Have driven lots of Ferrari's , TVR's , ect for work ,but the porsche would be a weekend toy. Any thoughts on owner ship Thanks Matt I've owned a 996 C4S and 996 Turbo, both manuals. Was always amused by the speed of the turbo, but preferred living with the C4S. It has a better engine noise (especially with sports exhaust), better throttle response, feels more nimble, and I think looks better. Based on today's values, the C4S is at least £7k cheaper than the turbo for similar age and mileage..? All these cars are going to have ongoing maintenance costs, but a well kept example should have had any necessary work done and be up to date

alfa phil said: Cobalt blue 996 targa , like hens teeth. very nice, I didn't even realise that a 996 could be specced with cobolt blue.I thought it was brought in with 997's.

chriscoates81 said: I didn't even realise that a 996 could be specced with cobolt blue.I thought it was brought in with 997's. You could get a 944 in cobalt blue!

stubbsy996 said: Double maintenance costs? - Is that just a guess or have you actually seen some comparisons. My servicing costs at indi haven't been much more on my turbo than they were on my previous C2. Bigger insurance number? - not necessarily so. Mine worked out cheaper on turbo than it was on C2! I've had my 4S for 3 years now, and it's cost me £5K total to maintain (£1.6K p/a).. over 3 years in a turbo with intercoolers, plumbing, 2 turbo's, + actuators factor in, I would expect it to be about double, that said you might get lucky if a car came with all that replaced, but they are 9-14 years old now. It's not difficult to do £5K on a turbo big service if you get hold of 1 that hasn't been looked after well.. Ref insurance, my renewal came in last week fully comp/protected max NCB @£350.. Edited by RatBoy M3CSL on Sunday 13th April 20:26