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YOUR RESEARCHHow bad is the M97 engine?
Leading reported evidence
Replace engine
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1
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Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The 308 V8s also had oil starvation issues when they changed the engine from longitudinal to transverse.
Leading evidence: 'Replace engine' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'very minor concern' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Inspect any debris' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The M97 engine IMS bearing cannot be replaced without a complete engine disassembly, but until then we strongly feel there are things that can help extend the life of the IMS bearing.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
And that is why Porsche used those engines for the racing cars and the turbos they built for the 996/997 era.
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Suspected cause
If not, oil starvation is probably a very minor concern.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Cut the engine oil filter open at every oil change, closely inspect for any debris.
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Suggestion
somehow my buddy who does 30 track days a year in his 993 never had to modify the oil pan, the thermostat, add radiators, go to a different oil filter setup, replace engine bearings, etc etc.
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Was cleaning up my desk and found this handout from a tech session I went to about a year ago. The shop is very very highly respected. This list of cautions certainly makes the M96 seem a much better engineering choice.
The handout starts out with common wisdom and common sense but then a dark cloud begins to form overhead.
The M97 engine IMS bearing cannot be replaced without a complete engine disassembly, but until then we strongly feel there are things that can help extend the life of the IMS bearing. Here are things we recommend:
1. Change engine oil every 3k miles or once every 6 months (5k miles - once per year Maximum).
2. Cut the engine oil filter open at every oil change, closely inspect for any debris.
3. Utilize a boutique type of engine lubricant e.g. Joe Bibbs Driven DT-40 or Motul 8100 Excess.
4. Install an LNE magnetic engine drain plug.
5. Install an LNE engine spin on oil filter...or replace the genuine engine oil filter housing every 20k miles.
6. If an LNE spin-on oil filter has been installed, also install on oil filter magnet.
7. Remove engine oil sump plate every 20k miles to inspect for any debris.
8. First and foremost, remove the IMS Bearing seal so the IMSB can get lubrication.
9. Replace all 3 engine chain tensioners every 40k miles.
10. Do not take car to the track.
And just what is wrong with Mr Bibbs products? Obviously he appears earlier in the alphabet than Mr Gibbs, so it should obvious that his products are therefore superior!
m97 > m96, but it isn't perfect.
why? first, no need to do 4 figure IMS repair. second, better in-engine oil delivery to the cylinders. third, more power. fourth, more power.
on the bright side, you can put the IMS solution in the m96, not track it & use good oil to mitigate a lot of risk.
regarding the mr.bibbs, the only thing wrong with his product is he didn't secure a 4th super bowl ring for the foreskins
Nah. Over there if anyone had replied it would have just been how it is all wrong as you are simply never supposed to crank the motor so OCIs are irrelevant.
At least here he can get some humor out of it.
Because the question is being asked of 996 owners. For me, track worthy and street worthy meet when you make repeated visits to 6000-6500 rpms. My understanding is that the M97 fixed the IMSB with a focus on street use, at the expense of track use. I am not aware of any difference in the bearing in the 3.6 and 3.8 M97 engines. Excuse me if I offended you in some way. I was under the impression this was a forum for technical discussion.
No offense taken. Of course, you could have title the thread, "How
good
is the M97 engine". But that's not your style.
I imagine that you are correct that the 996 Forum is the best place to post this question since the majority of its followers have owned or driven one.
The 996 Forum a technical discussion forum? You need to start writing comedies.
Don't take it to the track!!!! HHAHA you do realize these are Porsche's, they have quite the history of successful racing and known for being reliable. The m96 and m97 can be on the track, they can be revved out and it is probably good for the esp with proper maintenance.
Now the whole going 10-15-even 20k between oil changes was'/is a very dumb move but these by all means should be tracked.
um...yeah. Might want to stop drinking the coolaid. Modern street porsches certainly have some engine concerns while tracking (and quite frankly, while not tracking).
That said, the M96 and M97 are equally crappy, and I own an M96 car.
From what I've read the past year, tracking is doable if you take some precautions. Even then you have some nasty tail risk to deal with.
Risk mitigation:
- good oil that won't shear at elevated operating temperatures (XP9)
- low temp thermostat 160F instead of stock 187F
- upgrade oil pan (FVD, etc.)
- shift @ 6,500 or earlier to reduce operational strain (think localized oil temps)
- use fresh oil for track days & change afterwards to ensure integrity of engine lubricant (tracking absolutely thrashes oil in m96/m97s)
- third radiator kit a plus to ease burden of low temp thermostat
There are probably others I'm omitting but honest discussion is very often obscured by drivel in the archives.
A good friend of mine owns a Porsche race shop and is the Chief Scrutineer for PCA (i.e., is in charge of the overall technical inspection program for track events). I asked him how often he sees 996s and 997s die from a failed motor on the track. He said very rarely.
somehow my buddy who does 30 track days a year in his 993 never had to modify the oil pan, the thermostat, add radiators, go to a different oil filter setup, replace engine bearings, etc etc.
very clever counselor. And yet, a simple perusal of this forum and the research I've done on having to modify my oil pan, have shown that there are absolutely regular engine failures due to oil starvation.
I'm guessing people aren't paying thousands on oil pans because they are pretty. But then, you knew that.
I haven't seen any evidence to support the oil pan purchase. Guys have had motors give out with all kinds of peripheral modifications. Refraining from redlining & using the best oil available seems like the 2 most effective ways to reduce odds of failure. But that's a highly subjective guess.
Dozens a year. Pretty much every weekend, throughout the country.
Personally, I HIGHLY recommend the deep sump and baffled oil pan for track use. I do have a friend whose motor went kaflooey on the track due to oil starvation. I put it in my track Boxste'.
I'd really like to do another HPDE this year so thanks for the input Mike. Seems like you track your m96(s) fairly regularly. Do you only track the boxst� to limit your risk & keep the 996 for street?
The canyons here are a blast so it's not a big deal either way. I just don't want to grenade it and have to gut my trading account.
His 996 blew chunks during a PCA-organized backcountry road tour - which is definitely NOT a high-performance event. NOT tracking a 996 doesn't guarantee anything...
I used to track the 996, but then bought the Boxste' to track since I don't mind abusing it. So, my 996 is my DD, street use only now. In my opinion, ZERO mods are needs for canyon blasting. Do change the oil frequently, though. I Highly recommend Mr. Pibb.
Regarding HPDE: In my opinion, the oil starvation issue can have a lot to do with two factors: 1) The track configuration: does it have large sweepers, such that the oil is forced to one side for extended periods? 2) Are you using super-sticky rubber and are you a good enough driver to be driving those sweepers such that you are generating high G-forces? If not, oil starvation is probably a very minor concern.
Good stuff, thanks for the insight. Started using Pibb last fall & am getting ready to order a new batch. The track out here is nearly all left hand turns with half a dozen sweepers, so I'm not planning to go back.
I will say, however, I tracked my 996 "out of the box." Zero mods other than the header-back Fabspeed exhaust. The only issue I had was once I overwhelmed the AOS... my fault... oil level was too high, and again, the sweepers were the culprit that caused the problem.
Also, once while I was on the track, my seat belt alarm started going off like crazy. Now I can't get the seat belt light on the dash to clear. Again, happened during hard turning on a big sweeper.
I guess these cars were just designed for the drag strip.
You are correct. I never gave a second thought to tracking my 964 or my 993. And that is why Porsche used those engines for the racing cars and the turbos they built for the 996/997 era.
By the way here is a link to the 996 of Ferraris...
http://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1...ial-c-6936.htm
The 308 V8s also had oil starvation issues when they changed the engine from longitudinal to transverse.
Or how reliable is the engine you do have? is the M96 a better engine than the M97 because the IMSB can be dealt with without tearing down the entire engine, and because (if I am remembering Jake correctly) the early IMSB had better high rpm qualities.
Clearly, the best way to ask the owners of a M96 is to ask about the M97.
Like, if you want to know about how a Corolla drives, asks the owners of Camrys.
