Behold... the 991.2 GT3 is here

I'm surprised there are no threads discussing this 4.0L 9,000rpm revving animal. I find the design a bit edgy with the colored rim edge and boxy vents all around... but I LOVE IT.

I like the black humps on the back. Totally cool. No real surprises with the rollout.

Is 9kredline confirmed? It's early am in usa and haven't studied all the release. But for 4.0l and 500hp would be less than 9k as for the .1 RS, For manual fans it's great news as expected. edit- website does say 9k. Very interested in seeing the details of engine differences from the 3.8. They are saying "new" but the description sounds the same- finger followers in the valve train etc. Wonder what they have done to address the 3.8 cam wear issues- better DLC, oiling changes, other? Glad to see they kept the 9k and didn't just reduce it. Must be the ecu tune that sets the 500hp. edit- lol ok, I need to do the research instead of snippets. It's solid lifters with shims-wow. What will the maintenance schedule be for adjustment

Now they need to put this engine and transmission in a GT4 RS. williamr

Here's another detailed review by AP on DriveTribe:

in everyone's dreams I bet hahaha But what a machine. One day I will have a GT3. But then again maybe a McLaren 570S over the GT3 cause they are about the same price already!

Seems that the engine is getting closer to 4 liter race engines that only have to last 24 hours!!!! But with solid lifters I bet that the sound is unbelievable and that the cost to tune that engine will be the same.

Absolutely beautiful! Now all I have to do is win the lottery.

Hilariously, the 991.2 GT3 may have solved a problem of mine. I made multiple "Special Requests" to Porsche Exclusive with my Spyder . The only one that was denied (instantly, with apparently no consideration) was to have my GT steering wheel deviated stitched in Platinum Satin (approved), and a red 12-o'clock stripe (denied). However, you can now get now the rim done exactly like that on the GT3. So in time should be able to order a GT3 steering wheel specced as such, and swap the rim (prefer to not swap the entire wheel, as the GT3 has black plastic) to finally get what I wanted. TAKE THAT, MELISSA!

How can the new GT3 be further upgraded so produce the next GT3 RS? williamr

Ugh. I've spent the past day just kinda drooling about this announcement. I'm all torn up. I absolutely LOVE my Boxster ... but man... this thing is ticking ALL the right boxes! I was very responsible when I decided to get my Boxster . I saved and I planned and I waited and finally I pulled the trigger and got everything I wanted. So the question is this... do I throw all my adult sensibilities out the window and mortgage my future to get one of these? I got to briefly drive a 991 GT3RS last year. It was glorious! To have this new GT3... in a manual... this is something that may never happen ever again!! What to do... what to do...

Base price appears to be $143,600.00 in the US and EUR 152,416.00 in Germany. Car is on the configurator to play with...select a different 911 model first and then go back to 'models' to be able to select the GT3.

I wouldn't be surprised if expected Canadian dealer allocations for the first year run are already snapped up. While I think the 991.2 GT3 is pretty amazing - and would be hugely desirable with the 6-speed - I wouldn't pay over MSRP for one. Worth making a couple of calls though to see where you'd be on the list if you decide to throw caution to the wind.

I don't see manual transmission on the configurator. My build came out to be $155,030 which isn't bad at all. http://www.porsche-code.com/PJBRTK62

In the Drive Tribe interview A.P. said that the mechanical valve lifters require no maintenance for the life of the engine. 300,00 KM. Also, he said that the single mass flywheel would not be available since it was not compatible with the new crankshaft. williamr

It might not be the last manual... but when the next generation comes out it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they went turbo. I mean... they might make something special every now and then like the 911R but those are irrelevant to us mere mortals.

Of course that's possible, but this TG interview from 03/16 with Andreas Preuninger suggests that atmospheric engines will be around for a while in the GT cars. Ten things we can expect from Porsche's GT department | Top Gear

Interesting. I hadn't expected that the insurance would be so much higher! I'll have to make some calls to ensure I'm not in for a nasty surprise. As for maintenance... how often do you need a rebuild even with regular track use? I expect it to go 200k km's before anything so drastic would be necessary. It's not like I'm running it at Le Mans. I know tires and brakes will cost more, but figure I can handle that.

140K car with super-pricey components being twice as much to insure as a 75K car actually isn't bad. They're still cheaper to insure than a Dodge Viper, about the same as a GT-R and a bit more than insuring a Corvette. To give you an idea on durability, for top shelf racing (as in, GT3 Cup and good enough to actually win), Porsche recommended an upper bound 50-60 hours of engine run time between rebuilds for the Mezgers, and recommended more around 40. Granted, the cup cars don't have as pricey pistons, rings, or other components and some ran at even higher redlines than the street cars, plus they run on slicks. Cup car engine components are considered more "consumable" because they run heavily stressed close to 100% of the time. Though keep in mind, the people who are competitive in GT3 Cup can push cars far, far harder than anyone on this forum can. Those engines basically see all their time between 6500-8000 rpm. That said, GT3 street car engines are pretty durable for how stressed they are, but keep in mind these motors aren't cheap. A crate 997 GT3 Mezger was ~$40,000, and I certainly wouldn't expect the newer engines to be cheaper. This is a case however where you really need to talk to a mechanic who works on tons of them . The general boundary is at somewhere around 80-100 track hours you should absolutely be doing oil analysis and a leak down to see if a rebuild is merited. For mileage, you shouldn't expect it less frequent than every 100K miles if you do some track use, but depending on usage and maintenance it can be higher than that, or lower. I'm aware of 996 Mezgers with 150K miles that haven't seen a rebuild and are in great shape. I've also heard of other engines with the same mileage that the only wise course of action for it was replacement, as rebuild costs were too high.

You've scared me into doing further research. So far I'm pretty comfortable with what I'm finding. I got some quotes on insurance and it looks like it's less than 50% more expensive than the Boxster . It's probably gonna cost me an extra $60/mo or so during the driving season so that's one hurdle behind me. For the engine rebuilds... well... 100k miles would be a LONG way away and plenty of others will get there far before I will so if it starts to look like this is an issue, I could decide long before I get there whether to move on to another car or whether to go the service route. The biggest surprise in my research is that it looks like I'm gonna need to budget $1500/yr or so for centerlock hub maintenance. That's a bit of a kick in the teeth and feels like a waste of money but it looks like it's unavoidable. So with what I've found so far... this is still coming across as a pretty good idea. Not a sane or responsible idea. But good in other ways. Of course, actually getting the privilege of being allowed to buy one is another story. Time will tell.

You always pay for rebuilds (on any car) one way or another. You pay to rebuild an engine: That's the cheap route. The other way is to buy an entirely new car, and actualize depreciation. GT3s don't depreciate much, but buying new cars is NEVER cheaper. Depreciation only matters if you sell something. If you never sell it, it's not part of your TCO. If you sell it, depreciation is now factored into your TCO. In fact, consider you'd basically be eating at least one 4.0L rebuild on the BGTS in depreciation. Depending on when, likely 1.5 - 2. The cost to rebuild an engine is lower than even the most basic (20%) downpayment on a new car in that price bracket. Long-term, rebuilding engines is way, way cheaper. Though for long-term ownership, it's something you have to factor in. You also need to talk to independents, as dealers can give wildly different figures because they usually quote engine REPLACEMENT which is several times more expensive. Yet If you want off the hedonistic treadmill, you have to get off. Remember, even better GT3s will replace the 991.2. That's why I bought a Porsche. I ran the numbers, and long term it was cheaper than constantly buying 30K sports cars (that would eventually be 36K cars, 42K cars, 48K cars, 54K cars, 60K cars) because of inflation. That and the idea of basically discarding a Porsche is unfathomable to me. I'm still furious with myself over the CGTS. I could have another $14K in my pocket (80% of a used BRZ) if I was simply patient and waited for the Spyder. I basically flushed $1000/month down the toilet simply because I was impatient. Never again.

Centrelocks are a bit finicky, but don't require any specific maintenance other than disassembly and lubrication (the grease is about $60-$70 Can. a tube and I've gone through 3 tubes in 4 years) unless you're tracking VERY hard and VERY frequently. In that case, after a few thousand TRACK MILES the nuts and the hubs are deemed wear items. Someone a year into simple DEs who does 8 or less days a year really wouldn't need to worry about budgeting much at all for CL nut and hub maintenance. BTW, centrelocks are a bit of a hassle, but with the right tools (and attitude) are pretty easy to work with. I've had my wheels off for one reason or another probably 30+ times since I bought my GTS, and it's really not much bother...a breaker bar to bust the nuts loose (and a brake pedal depressor so you don't need a helper), two jacks, 6 hockey pucks and 4 jack stands to get it off the ground, and a Precision Instruments 600lb/foot torque wrench are needed, but getting the car up and all 4 wheels off takes 10, maybe 15 minutes tops. Most of the fretting about CLs is from the first year or two when there were failures, and before the torque settings were increased. Sure. some folks whine about CLs...but I enjoy them. They are beautifully engineered pieces of kit that are a pleasure to use. My understanding is that at one time 5-bolts hubs were a no-cost option on cars that came standard with CLs...if you don't like 'em or want 'em, that may still be an option with a GT3.

CLs- have to say I'm in the dislike camp. For mostly street use they are fine. For regular track they're a pain compared to 5 bolt. Have to carry more kit. At home I can keep everything clean and organized. At the track, sometimes out in the paddock it gets harder. It's really important to keep dirt and grit out of the mechanism. Even with gloves I get the paste on everything and worry about getting it in the interior. That's if swapping wheels. Just checking the torque is not so bad. Good to have some help but a large clamp/spreader can work to hold the brakes. For the fronts have to ensure the force is applied in a vertical plane or else the wheel starts to turn. With practice becomes easier. As best I can recall for the first gen CLs on 997.2 there was a CL or 5 bolt option on the Turbo and GTS models. GT3s have all been CL only. I know of some 997.2 owners that converted to 5 bolt but to date have not heard of such on the 991.

I appreciate all of this and it's a perspective I'm going to take to heart. I don't regret anything about buying the Boxster as it's been everything I'd hoped it would be and if I hadn't bought it, I'd have never known that I want a GT3. I wasn't in that position of knowing something better was on the way. It's everything I ever wanted, even though it introduced me to a world that's left me wanting something a bit different. I'm not going to keep dreaming of something newer and better. That's not me at all. I'd planned on making this my forever car. If I get a GT3, that will certainly do it for me for the long term!

LOL, yes...the paste gets EVERYWHERE. On the wheels, on your tools, on your clothes. With the fronts, I make sure the steering is locked to prevent turning. My breaker bar is collapsible as is the torque wrench and fit neatly in the frunk, but two jacks are needed to get the car completely in the air. Agreed that if you're removing wheels in the paddock, CLs are more hassle, but I don't see a lot of wheels/ tires getting moved around on DE days.

Man... this is sounding scary. I know the consumables like tires and brakes are gonna be more expensive and the hub maintenance is a painful hit but apparently should be done on other cars as well. All my other impressions though are that it shouldn't cost a lot to run and should last a very long time even with hard use. I mean... if it needs major work in 10 years I expect I can handle that. And yeah... I've been talking with Tim. I'm really hoping he can land me one. From a financial perspective, it's almost a try-before-you-buy premise when it comes to long term ownership. I mean... the moment I buy it, it's probably worth an extra $30k or so. So in a few years it's probably back to what I paid for it so it seems like a really low-risk endeavour. I expect I'll keep it forever but if I don't, the depreciation even over 5 years or so shouldn't be all that bad. My biggest concern in the whole thing is what I'm giving up. If I give up my Boxster to get one and then for some reason aren't 100% happy with it... I'll never get my Boxster back or, likely, another one remotely like it. That's really what I'm worried about.

Incidentally... after Goofnik scared me the first time, I posted on ******** looking for whether there were any surprises I wasn't aware of. Nobody chimed in with anything at all other than being aware of that hub maintenance. I even had some back and forth with someone in PM's that all seemed much more reassuring. What are the maintenance expectations for a 991.x GT3? - ******** Discussion Forums

Brakes are a lot more expensive. Using Suncoast as a proxy... Boxster GTS front/rear rotors and front/rear pads have a parts cost of $961 USD before labor. Again using Suncoast as a proxy, the 380mm steel front/rear rotors and front/rear pads have a parts cost of $3557 USD before labor. +270% (approaching 4 times as much), and those are the steel brakes. Tires are WAY more expensive. Let's take Boxster GTS. P Zero OEM fitment. 220 AA A rated. Using TireRack, we're at $1296.86 USD for tires with shipping. Figure 8-12K miles from the rears, and 15-20K miles for the fronts. Now let's look at a GT3. The cheaper Pilot Sport Cup 2 fitment. 180 AA A rated. Using TireRack, we're at $1787.02 USD for tires with shipping. However, expect a LOT less mileage. Realistically, about half, because you have far less tread depth. So tires are only about 40% more, but we're likely replacing them about twice as often. So this may be +175% more, or approaching three times as expensive. Though with more track time, those costs will go up further. Let's go into another tire-related cost -- wrapping your car (XPEL, etc.). Especially if you track it, you really want to do it. Not just the nose. Full front fenders (obviously), rockers, and the rear fenders (especially aft) are important, because chunks of those Sport Cup 2s and MAXXs are going to mark up your paint like a boy in a Catholic school on a gym floor. A very comprehensive wrap -- from experience -- is easily $3000-3500. Figure you'll replace that every 5-6 years. Amortized cost of $40-60/mo. We have centerlock related costs, because those bearings take a beating. We can amortize that at $125/mo. You have the front splitter. That's about $250-300 from the parts department. Figure about every 2 years you'll replace it. ~$10-$12/mo. You also have more expensive dampers, a much more complicated rear setup (with higher costs), ball-ends that needs replacing much more often, and some additional maintenance with RWS[1]. These costs aren't huge (though those suspension bits aren't cheap), but they add up. You'll also damage the brake cooling ducts over time, and they'll need to be replaced. Not expensive, but another small cost. Other parts are also not cheap. 911s have much beefier cooling fans, much beefier alternators, etc. Again, higher costs for common parts. There are some higher fuel costs. Going from the 3.4L to the 3.8L my fuel costs increased by ~25%. Figuring +30-40% for a GT3 (over the 3.4L) is reasonable. We have insurance. I pay dirt for insurance. I have no multi-car or other discounts, and to insure the Spyder for 7000 miles a year is $123/mo (will be $102/mo after the car is moved) This is ~$16/mo more than the Cayman GTS. However a 2016 GT3 for the same mileage would be another $1146.17 a year. That's +$95.50/mo over the Spyder, and ~+$110/mo over the Cayman GTS. Now I could shop this around and find cheaper rates, though that depends. With the Spyder I have declared value insurance. With the Cayman I didn't (I had depreciation insurance). With the GT3 I'd have to see if DV insurance made sense before I shopped around. Next, you have depreciation of your Boxster GTS. My Cayman GTS was ~$91K MSRP, I paid $89K, and sold it privately for $80K (and ate my $3000 XPel job). I also ate a year of full-fat excise tax, some side indicator lenses, and some other small expenses to the tune of $14K for 14 months. Dealer trade quotes were $72-75K after 14 months. You see GTSs now as low as $60K. A year later they may be $50K on the bottom end. Might you be willing to eat $30K in depreciation on your BGTS when your GT3 arrives in mid-to-late 2018? Also note how much more expensive it is to step up to a GT3. Between depreciation and upgrade costs, you may be paying 100% of a new well-equipped Boxster GTS to step up to a GT3. Make sure you're OK with that. Then we have the costs most Rennlisters won't ever talk about, which are LONG TERM MAINTENANCE COSTS, because most never incur them. This is because most GT3 owners are serial. Most Porsche owners are. It's the usual "luxury car problem" of people not wanting to pay to fix anything outside of warranty, and instead getting a new car (because the newer car is better, etc.) every N years, which does not reduce TCO but instead increases it by a huge margin . Talk to independent mechanics about what it costs to rebuild a 996 or 997 Mezger. Realize a 991 3.8L GT3 engine is not any cheaper, and a RSR-derived 4.0 is not cheaper still. Figure this number to be +150-200% over what it would cost to rebuild your 3.4L. We're talking rebuild costs of that 4.0L being close to what it costs to buy a Spyder crate motor. It's an amazing engine, but it's heavily stressed when you're living up between 7500 and 9000 rpm. It only goes so far between rebuilds. You're not going to spend a lot of time up in that range, but over many years you do. People like to talk about how reliable S2000 engines are. They are. Though most people aren't up in the upper-reaches all the time (usually sub-5K). Rebuilding an S2K motor is typically around $7-8K, in which most people insist you just "get a new car". BMW S14 rebuilds tend to be more around $10K ($8K if no machine work, up to $12-13K with lots of machine work). These are small 4-cylinders. Your much larger 6-cylinder that revs as high or higher is going to be in the $20-30K range based on what I hear for Mezger rebuilds. $25-30K being typical or if you don't keep on top of it, sub-$25K possible if you do regular oil analysis and leak downs at regular intervals (ever 4 to 5 years) to keep very well informed with what's going on (and possibly rebuild a bit early). It'll be a good long while before you reach this point, but you'll reach it eventually. Mind you, with any Porsche motor, I was always told to, "not expect things to really be below $10K if you're going to crack the case and do everything worth doing -- make sure get any upgrades done while you're in there" . That was in regards to a normal 2.7 or a 3.4, not something like a GT3, and why I'm already saving towards rebuild #1 of my 3.8 (in which we'll look at upgrading bits to X51, further improving cooling/oiling, etc.). There are much less common, far more expensive bits in those high-strung motors. If you're not willing to incur those long-term rebuild costs when they arrive, you are not buying a GT3. You are a long-term renter because you didn't plan ahead. Make sure you are OK with that. Again long-term, rebuilding that motor will always be cheaper than buying new GT3s, because GT3s (reaction to PDK 991.1 aside) normally depreciate, albeit quite gently. ----- Again, figure $30K rebuild. If you do it every 10 years, it's $250/mo. If you do it in 15 years, it's ~$170/mo. It's a big lump sum, but it's cheaper than buying any economy car over and over . You also have higher brake, tire, fuel, bearing, suspension, insurance costs plus amortized actualized depreciation -- GT3s are not cheap to run[2]. However in 10 years, expect a new GT3 to be at least $200K out the door, and more like $225K in 15 years. Again, rebuilding a motor isn't cheap, but WAY cheaper than new cars. Especially when high-end Caymans will likely be able to surpass $150K equipped before we know it. So again, if you have the means to do it, don't hesitate. Just make it your forever car. You'll be spending a ton now to upgrade, you don't want to spend an even larger ton come 2030. ----- [1] Which at least having whupped 991.2s around the track, I actually like. I found it to be witchcraft with how eager 991.2's dive bombed apexes. It's also the largest reason why a Nissan GT-R has the agility it does. [2] Which is why I didn't buy one. I run my cars 7-8K a year, not commuting, and run them pretty hard. I could've afforded to buy a 997 GT3, but it wasn't worth more than double the running costs of the Spyder to me.

Or you could park the 981 for six months while you buy and drive a used 4cyl 914. Then go back to the Boxster and notice how crazy fast it is. Seriously, welcome back! I say go for it! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

On the one hand... I feel a little sick to my stomach right now reading that. On the other hand... I've become surprisingly ok with the premise of spending ALL of my disposable income on having fun with cars. I know that's idiotic... but it's not just a wildly unrealistic justification. I actually HAVE been spending nearly all my disposable income on cars for the past few years and don't have any regrets. My life is pretty awesome right now. First all my money was going toward saving for the Boxster . Since then, on top of the tires and brakes and track fees, I've been saving as much as I can to replenish my safety net, which was entirely spent on the Boxster . Which is to say, I haven't been spending it on anything else. If I get a call saying they've got a GT3 allocation for me, that safety net is back out the window and I'll take on debt to finance the car but if history is any indicator, I'll have the loan paid off within 2 years and go back to building my safety net. With all of the above in mind, I now realize that I'm going to need to start a contingency fund to cover major expenses that are going to come up eventually but I should have at least 5 or 6 years to get there. I've averaged over 6000 miles in my first two years but expect my long term average to be closer to 4500. In the meantime, it's more money for brakes and tires but, painful as those are, I can handle that. And if it turns out I can't... then I can still step off this train after a couple years and probably not take a hit in depreciation. So in retrospect that will have turned out to be renting it as you say... but it will be very cheap rent. At that point, my big problem will be what to replace it with since I won't get my Boxster back. Maybe GT4? This may all end up moot though. They probably won't let me have one anyway.

For strictly road use the running cost on the 991.1 GT3 is not bad. The CLs don't need the 6k/12k service. Cup2s should last 15kmi depending on how driven of course. MPSS or similar should last longer and have better wet grip. One other item though is the spark plug change interval is 12k mi or 2 yrs. Not sure about the 991.2 or if there will in fact be some valve clearance inspection /adjustment frequency for the .2. Regular track use though is another story. The number 1 consumable is tires . For cup2s it's about 400 to 500 per day. Add in pads, rotors, high temp brake fluid, the CL maintenance, about a grand per track day is in the ball park.

As someone who has spent far too much time on /r/personalfinance/ giving sound advice (and was success of the year in 2015), you should take real pause at that one. My 2016 was actually really bad. I listened to other people who kept asking why I don't just work for someone else. These were very smart people, so I tried that. Three times. I not only cut my salary in half (compared to what I paid myself), but I also quit three jobs after 27 hours, 3 weeks, and 6 weeks respectively because everywhere I worked was a bunch of chuckle@#$%s. The "cost" of this misadventure was approximately an entire Boxster Spyder in lost income. I live pretty cheaply, but I still had to eat into savings to the tune of a 4-cylinder Japanese mid-size sedan because I basically had no income for most of 2016. Though I was able to shrug my shoulders because the cash was just sitting there in my savings account. I would never eat into a rainy day fund for something that isn't an emergency. Buying a Porsche is not an emergency. Neither is rebuilding an engine (that should be a long-term expense with a budget). ----- Again, do what you wish, but this doesn't sound like a good idea. I looked at GT3 running costs and went, "I could, but nope." For me the additional cost is... * Insurance: +$95/mo * Brakes: +$70/mo * Tires: +$100/mo * Fuel: +$10/mo * Wheel Bearings: +$100/mo * Long-Term Rebuild: +$+125/mo * Misc. (including ball ends): +$100/mo So +$600/mo at a minimum (or an additional $70K per 10 years in running costs, before inflation). That excludes the "step up" cost, which would be +$70K, plus $3500-4000 for XPel Ultimate (new application), plus +$4300 in sales tax, plus another year of (even more expensive) full-fat excise tax..., or likely around +$80K total up front . To amortize that over 10 years would be +$665/mo, and +$330/mo to amortize it over 20. This is no cheaper than +$1000/mo, and really more like +$1250/mo. My entire entertainment budget (sans car) is less than 25% of that. Maybe if I had a wifey that was a practicing specialist to at least double my household income (how I'd sell that to her is beyond me), but no way I could justify it to myself. I can actually afford it (hell, I just hacked $800/mo off by moving, and still saved thousands/month excl. retirement before I moved), but I couldn't stomach that personally. That is a ton of money going into a car. I make less than the average BMW M3 buyer (which is a lot more than you think)[1], so for me a Porsche at all requires me foregoing all other entertainment. There's a reason why GT3 buyers are serial -- spending lots of money constantly on a new car isn't a concern. ----- [1] And more than I remembered apparently. I do NOT make more than an M3 household. I make a noticeable chunk less, and likely will stay that way until Income #2 ramps up, or a decide I want a girlfriend.

Spending all your disposable income on a car is a bad idea IMO. I could very easily afford to trade in my 4 year old BS for a new 911 without making much of a dent in my savings. I don't want to (even though I am tempted) because I am cheap and I feel I haven't used my car enough to justify throwing away 35k in the trade and spending another 70k. Second, more importantly, my car-hating wife will kill me. But to each his own.