Replacement M96 DIY engines under 10k

I thought I would throw together a basic path that would satisfy many DIY'ers for a 3.4 and also for a 3.6 M96. Costs include a factory short block, sending the heads to a head service, complete gasket kit with all seals /o-rings/bolts ect. plus Loctite 5900. ( actually will have a few seals left over like front/rear main, water pump) Head service would include cleaning, pressure testing, basic 3 angle valve job, new seals, light machining to ensure trueness cost is normally $250 each head..YMMV This would take care of the engine internals, of course any worn out external parts coils,plugs, AOS ect, repair as necessary.. And you supply the labor. M96/01 /02 /04 from 99-2001 3.4 996-100-951-TX Porsche factory short block from Auto Atlanta $6305.60 996-105-253-00 Vario cam guides from Auto Atlanta $21.66 need 2 sets #1364363-M9601SET complete gasket set/bolts ect. from AutohausAZ $475.25 Part# 000-043-204-35-M258 Loctite 5900 from Pelican parts $14.00 $6838.26 parts $500.00 cylinder head service Total $7338.26 + your labor M96/03 2002-2004 3.6 996100996UX Porsche factory short block from Auto Atlanta $7669.08 100904202 - O.E.M. M96.03 SET complete gasket set / bolts ect from Pelican Parts $660.75 Part# 000-043-204-35-M258 Loctite 5900 from Pelican parts $14.00 $8343.83 parts $500.00 cylinder head service Total $8843.83 + your labor A much better alternative than buying a used engine IMHO

So on the short block,, Just thinking here.. If I bought a set of nickies with pistons, and reused the rotating assembly except for bearings, I think I'd be in that ballpark? As long as my current engine passed inspection that is.. And I'd add and IMS update of one sort or another most likely. so add the ~1800 dollar bump..

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Yea, probably a couple of grand more, I think I"ll do a quick workup using LN Nickies, with the added IMSB,main and rod bearings, timing chains, guides, rod bolts, ect. and see if it still comes in under 10k for the more experienced DIY'ers like yourself...

Its sort of the basic, and a light upgrade option,, you'd always have to be ready for that un salvageable bit,, Scored crank or bad IMS shaft , unuseable cams,, etc. The nickies option would also give you a diy 3.8 upgrade if you wanted.. At some point,, you also still have to decide your abilities.. "A mans got to know his limitations" LOL

Where I live in the Bay Area, there is no machine shop that will do a valve job on the heads for $500. It would be $2,000 minimum. Shipping that short block from Atlanta to San Francisco is $500 at least, could be more. Don't forget oil, gear oil, coolant, brake fluid, etc... and filters. I don't see it for less than 10K, maybe 11K.

Nickies DIY for M96/01 /02 /04 years 99-2001 Nickies for 3.4 3.6 3.8 from LN $4995.00 (includes pistons/pins/rings/clips) #1364363-M9601SET complete gasket set/bolts ect. from AutohausAZ $475.25 996-105-253-00 Vario cam guides from Auto Atlanta $21.66 need 2 sets Part# 000-043-204-35-M258 Loctite 5900 from Pelican parts $14.00 Part # 996-105-170-53-M48 Iwis cam to cam chain From Pelican Parts $21.00 x2 Part# 996-105-177-53-M48 Iwis long chain from Pelican parts $56.50 x2 Part# 996-105-171-55-INT Iwis IMS chain from Pelican $28.00 Part# 996-105-175-52-M260 chain guide (primary)From Pelican parts $28.25 x2 Part# 996-105-173-52-M260 chain guide (secondary) from Pelican parts $28.50 x2 Part# 996-105-165-55-M100 IMS chain rail from Pelican parts $38.25 Part# 996-105-166-51-M100 IMS guide from Pelican parts $46.25 Part# 10-0124-125-M3020 LN/RND IMSB from Pelican parts $733.50 Part# 996-101-115-62-M100 carrier bolts from Pelican parts $6.25 x14 Part# 996-101-205-10-M100 main bearings from Pelican $ 8.25 x14 Part# 996-103-121-62-M100 rod bearings from Pelican $8.25 x12 Part# 996-101-129-52-M100 thrust bearing from Pelican $14.50 x2 Part# 900-041-004-01-OEM IMS chain guide clip $1.00 Part# 204-6301 Rod bolts from ARP $222.69 $7196.76 parts Total $500.00 head service $ 7696.76 + your labor Not much more than the Factory short block, this is the way to go if you have the Skilz !!!!

Heads truly will depend on the condition,, despite all the myth and legend, not all Porsche bits are special.. Doing the heads on a 911 is no harder than Subaru heads.. boxer is a boxer especially with overhead cams. The price can go high,, new valves will drive it up, if any seats are bad.. Guides etc.. but I have access to the tools so for that bit its parts only.. keeping this as a budget estimate yea should allow for the higher end and hopefully get lucky. I'm also not going to try and replicate a FSI engine,, I tip my hat to their experience and ability to optimize end to end..

I�d consider adding having a machine shop check the crank and rods for the nickies option. Both need to be checked for size, concentricity, etc. Assuming you can reuse them might be okay, but I�d rather be certain. Having the rods prepped for ARP rod bolts might be reasonable too. 7,000 rpm isn�t a joke.

Definitely,, luckily that's not a real expensive thing to do. Dropping all the cams in a "Cam DR " to check they are straight as well. Same with the IMS. I'd prob end up paying 2 hours to one of the shops locally to check for straight and magneflux the crank.

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My cylinder head guy (the largest cylinder head service in the state, that I have known for decades) does my 996 heads for $200 bucks each, he has even fixed the crack on mine 12 years ago when I first got it,(still going strong). and has since fixed a half dozen more for people that I commissioned. Some cylinder head shops will insist on new springs, guides, without even checking them to see if the guides are worn, or if the spring pressure is weak. I guess checking spring pressure and checking guide wear doesn't pay as well .. Your right, my cylinder head guy didn't bat an eye when I brought in the Porsche m96 heads even though he had never seen one, and I showed him the crack I wanted fixed..lol

I've had a 4" hole in the side of a aluminum block that went into a cylinder filled and welded and sleeved, it did another 3 seasons till a new rookie driver decided that 10K rpm's just wasn't good enough.. Aluminum is amazing ..

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The m96 rods are forged powdered metal "cracked" rods(cracked at the parting line to create a unique positive mating surface), there is no reconditioning/prepping them. Looking at the old bearing will tell you all you need to know, if any question or doubt, toss them and put in a good set of H-beam 4340 rods

Got a question. Rather than use an M96/03 short block could you use an 997S M97 3.8 short block to get a displacement increase?

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I posted a spread sheet of the cost to rebuild my M96 3.4 engine in my coolant intermix post. It falls inline with the parts quoted above. My engine had a new AOS and LN Engeneering IMS bearing already done. I did have the added cost of repairing the cracked cylinder head. I was also fortunate that I found a set of cases on eBay that were Nikasil plated and came with pistons. About $2100.00. The total came to $7,700.00 Here is a link to the spreadsheet. http://www.ez-bizwebs.com/3.4/images/Spreadsheet/Porsche996_EngineRebuild2.pdf

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I would replace all of the valve seats as part of the refurb just due to that being a mode of failure.

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Yep, I'd not even consider not doing this, especially with an M96.03 engine.

With what we now know about the 986/996 engines, getting a new short block from Porsche, changing the oil every 3 months with a Motul or Raby oil, using the low temp thermostat, magnetic drain plug, spin on oil filter adapter, pulling the seals off of the large M97 style bearing, and replacing all associated broken plastics/water pump etc. should provide you with an engine that will provide 200,000 miles of hassle free driving enjoyment.

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That still give you a Lokasil cylinders which are prone to bore scoring compared to the proven Nikasil bores, correct?

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Correct but when would that start to happen? With what we now know I would think one could minimize and prolong the issue from starting. And for what it's worth, I would not pay more than $6-$7K for a good (I've seen and heard it run w/compression test) used motor.

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Some of these motors have gone 2-300k miles without issue.

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I would like to think that Porsche indirectly admitted to the M96/M97 Lokasil problem just like they did with the IMS fiasco until people banded together. They had proven nikasil bores in the all the air-coolend engines as well as the M96/M97 Turbo,GT2, and GT3 models that didn't suffer from the scoring problem. Alusil seems to follow the same fate as Navarro, Bazhart, and Raby have pointed out many times. Nikasil is still the one to go with... you add piston pin offset issue and that's enough for me to say "no thank you". Many people will claim these engines don't have problems until they have problems.

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There are countless numbers of Lokasil cylinders out there with over 200k miles, yes Nikasil is a proven coating for aluminum cylinders, I'm sure the LN/Millenium m96 cylinders will get to a high mileage.BTW what is the highest mileage posted for the m96 Nikasil cylinders to date? Nikasil is not without it's flaws/risks, sulfer is one that corrodes Nikasil, I have seen numerous cases of flaking of the edges. Don't get me wrong, I love Nikasil and Millenium does a good job, I have used them for years. Nikasil/ aluminum cylinders are lightweight, better ring seal, less friction, and gives a few more pony's, but is not perfect, and is the most expensive process. Nodular Iron is more stable, higher strength, more durable, but heavier and will loose a few pony's and a little fuel efficiency, the main reasons why all the other materials are being used . The constant chase for fuel efficiency lighweight, and sometimes just for the little extra power. I'm OK with carrying a little extra weight, giving up a little efficency and pony's for a rock solid bottom end.

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True, but diligent service intervals would make this a non issue. I know many newer gen Porsche owners who still scoff at oil changes before 15K miles because "its expensive" and the put Kumho tires on their car because they are cheaper than N spec or Porsche approved tires. If you own a car that was big $$$ brand new, it will take some big $$ to properly maintain unless you can do it yourself. With all of the low mileage 996 out there (which I wouldn't touch), most likely, those cars sat and were rarely driven for years, let alone getting oil changes every 6 months.

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I�m not sure I understand how more frequent oil change intervals will have an impact on bore scoring and ovalization due to connecting rod offsets and poor cylinder liner coatings?

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My take.. You have to assume either the whole design is beyond saving,, or that it can be taken care of ,, Regular oil changes keep the PH of the oil under control. So your minimizing corrosion and breakdown of the wear surfaces.. While the piston offset is an issue, you can minimize that by not lugging the engine, The ovalization thing well,, it is what it is,, Upside is the Nickies or the Hartech ring both fix it,, but at a cost.. The quality of the cylinder Alloy is likely one of the big players in that problem. My 03 has 115K on the clock, ready for its second oil change and baseline oil test. We shall see.. I know I have my fingers crossed..

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I have stacks of papers published in peer reviewed engineering journals that directly point to the fact that oil has a huge part in all of this. Time permitting I've been digesting them into a condensed form which I plan on sharing, but it's been a project I've been working on the last 11 months. Based on the available research, higher ZDDP and moly levels along with increased HTHS vis would seem to help extend the UMW (ultra mild wear) regime for aluminum bores. A paper published by Toyota that I came across this morning indicates that sulfur in fuels and interactions at low engine temperatures below 40C create acids that cause accelerated wear in MMC bores, like Lokasil and Alusil. Although some think it's extreme, more frequent oil changes are the best step to extend the usable life. Those cars driven in cold climates or very short distances where the oil never gets to temp are those cars that will have the highest bore and ring wear.

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Excellent info!

Exactly what I'd expect ,, moisture + sulphur + heat= acid.. Investing in a oil heater for the sump might be a thing if you live in a cool climate. They sell them in dirt track catalogs for heating up dry sump tanks. They don't take long, a 2 gallon tank and heater its 160 in < 10 minutes. They are a silicone rubber pad with heat wires inside..

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I remember those pads. If my memory is good they are about 4-5 inch long and are usually 500-1000 watts. They are peel and stick but need to be sealed with silicone. The only problem I can see is the surface of the M96 pan is not smooth and have ridges so it might be harder to have the pad stick to it. I do live in cold climate so we are used to see theses system either for oil pan but mostly for coolant which is a probe type heater but I never expected I would need one of those as I dont drive the car during winter months. The coldest temperature the car would see here is around 42 deg F. Im now wondering if you heat up the oil, let say an hour before running the engine, will it release the moisture from the oil without eliminating it as it would normally if you would drive the car for an hour?

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Interesting idea. I may give one of these heaters a try since I daily mine...

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Tagging for the day when I will want to find this. Thanks, Doc (and all that have contributed).

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If it is a 2002-2004 3.6 engine

This will result in more reliable 996 engines:

996.2, This video series specifically covers the assembly of the M9X engine. It will assist DIY and Professionals alike, with the task of assembling the M9X engine from scratch.

Woohoo Prime Video! That way I can get it digitally, and watch it at work and at home. Hope it's out before long so I can ask for it for Christmas...if I can wait that long.

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Pre- sales will happen before Christmas. The finished product won't be released till late January- February.

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I would not leave it on that long,, I don't think they are meant for more than a pre-heat session. The one I used had "boot hooks on 2 edges, and you laced it around the tank, it was a Moroso IIRC, I did get to wondering if anybody has installed a pump style engine heater on a 911.. Heating the water would help too.. Would make for short warmup on a colder morning.

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Yes, consistent with the anecdotal experience from the Spec 996 group, which has probably been the best real world test bed for M96 motors being pushed to their limit. Keep em full of fresh oil and run em hard. (And whatever you do, don't over-rev them on the downshift, even a little bit.)

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Spot on. Probably helps that most, if not all of them, are running real race oils with high ZDDP and moly content, and frequent oil changes.

Hello Guys, Jon from EBS Racing here. Noticed the 996 engine rebuild parts list. Just for fun I ran the numbers to see where we would be. Turns out we do the same parts list at $6245.00 saving almost $1000.00. We can also build your engine if you like. If you would like to see the detailed price quote please PM or email [email removed] For engine rebuild questions, upgrades and big bore conversions email our engine builder [email removed] Thanks Jon

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That's great !! Saving nearly 1k dollars on basis essential rebuild parts could mean that some DIY'ers could opt for H-beam 4340 rods or the much loved IMS Solution. If you would please copy and past your price list for ease of comparison and to archive it for potential DIY'ers, it would be much appreciated, thankx.

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That's pretty good, cheaper than my 2 cylinder KTM motorcycle..

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Will those of us who attended the hands on classes get a discount?

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+$200 to ship a engine case to LN

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Is that a one way shipping quote? Don't forget the sales tax

Hello Bill, agreed. See my side below. Thanks Jon EBS Racing

Jon from EBS Racing here. Sorry for the delay in getting back. I've just returned from a week in Las Vegas at the SEMA show. I'll get that parts list posted as soon as I get back to the office. Thanks Jon

This thread seems to be back on track now after a brief de-rail. 1 quick lesson learned, be aware of scammers, they are everywhere. just last month a had my credit card hit for $1400 in unauthorized charges, luckily my fraud protection caught it and stopped payment, but I had to be issued a new card which caused a few problems with automatic payment through the card. But all was handled and all good now. Hopefully Jon will post up his list of prices. If anyone sees some great discounts on basic essential engine rebuild parts please let us know..

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It happens so often that B of A has blocked some of my legitimate purchases...

I just wanna say thanks to porschetech, Jon, Charles and Jake for helping make this thread invaluable. I also think it should become a sticky. At some point all of us who stick with the 986 and 996 platforms will probably need or desire a rebuild. I love both mine; a 986S and 996 C2. Getting rid of them isn�t something I�d do. Knowing what my real choices are and who to contact are invaluable. As a disclaimer, I�ve been to Jake�s class, bought things from Charles and Jon (via Charles). I�d be happy to meet porschetech too if I had that opportunity.

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That was round trip from So.CA to Illinois UPS ground in 2010 + cost of packaging.

tagging this thread for the future motor refresh

Jon from EBS Racing here. We've had lots of interest in our engine rebuild kits. If you would like a parts/price list please send me an email [email removed]. Let me know the details of your project and we will customize a rebuild kit specifically for you. Below is a list of the rebuilds that we have done in house and that we have assembled rebuild kits for those DYI customers. We have just finished our Project 996 3.4-3.9 rebuild with great results. Just need to do a bit of ECU tuning then off to the dyno. We can also help with any machine shop services that you might need. valves jobs, engine case repair, Nickasil plating, etc. 986 3.2 986 3.4 987 3.4-3.6 987S 3.4 996 3.4 996 3.4-3.8 996 3.6 996 3.6 X51 996 3.6-4.0 996 GT2 997 3.6 997 3.8-4.0 997S 3.8 Cayman 3.4 Cayman S 3.4

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How does the more frequent changes idea comport with https://www.sae.org/publications/tec...2007-01-4133/?

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Hi jimham968 , Sorry I forgot to answer your question. Yes, you can use the 997S 3.8 Factory short block with the 3.6 heads for a bump in displacement, but it will not be economical. The M97/01 3.8 Factory shortblock costs 20k !! The 3.4 and the 3.6 Shortblocks have not had the massive price increases that the other Porsche parts have seen in the last 20 years. Since this thread is for replacement engine solutions under 10k, the M97/01 3.8 Factory shortblock does not qualify....

Nickies DIY for M96/03 2002-2004 Nickies for 3.6 3.8 4.0 from LN $4995.00 (includes pistons, pins, rings, clips) 100904202 - O.E.M. M96.03 SET complete gasket set / bolts ect from Pelican Parts $660.75 Part# 000-043-204-35-M258 Loctite 5900 from Pelican parts $14.00 Part#996-101-209-04-m100 main bearing from Pelican parts $34.00 X 14 Part#996-103-121-62-m100 rod bearing from Pelican parts $6.25 X 12 Part#996-105-152-01-m48 timing chain long from Pelican parts $54.50 X 2 Part#996-105-171-58-m100 IMS timing chain from Pelican parts $156.00 Part#996-105-156-00-m100 chain guide 1-3 from Pelican parts $39.25 Part# 996-105-054-01-m100 chain rail 1-3 from Pelican parts $62.25 Part#996-105-158-01-m100 chain guide 4-6 from Pelican parts $37.30 Part#996-105-164-00-m100 chain rail 4-6 from Pelican parts $33.25 Part#996-105-168-04-m100 chain rail guide from Pelican parts $35.50 X 2 Part#996-105-165-55-m100 IMS guide paddle from Pelican parts $38.25 Part#996-105-166-51-m100 IMS guide rail from Pelican parts $46.25 Part#0PB-105-638-m100 thrust bearing from Pelican parts $19.50 X 2 Part# 900-041-004-01-OEM clip for IMS paddle from Pelican parts $1.00 Part#996-101-115-62-m100 carrier bolts from Pelican parts $6.25 X14 Part#10-0124-225-m3020 LN/RND IMS bearing from Pelican parts $778.25 Kit #: 204-6301 rod bolts from ARP $222.69 $7941.74 parts $500.00 head service (ask about valve seats) Total $8441.74 + your labor add $350 for oversize head gaskets for 3.8 99mm or 4.0 101mm from LN Engineering Note : many parts here are Genuine Porsche that could be sourced elsewhere for less (EBS??). but since EBS website is not as user friendly for parts lookup I used Pelican for a reference.

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I read a similar paper published many years earlier that described the same phenomenon. The short answer is that the oil additives react with combustion byproducts, pressure, temperature, etc. and decompose, reacting with each other, forming new substances that perform better than the original additives. Many don't know, but there are many types of anti-wear additives, even multiple ZDDPs, all of which react differently. Some form films slower, some faster. Same goes with moly and other zinc replacements. The formulation of the oil greatly affects all of this, so the tests carried out using ILSAC starburst oils (energy conserving) in relatively low performance engines doesn't necessarily apply to ours.

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Ditto, and subscribed.

If you would like to consider an alternative to those listed you can obtain full details of our own rebuilds on www.hartech.org , or detailed reports of our oversized engines and/or the main problems and solutions that afflict this model range from [email removed] Just a warning - our detailed technical stuff is lengthy and high level - will not suit technophobes. Baz

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Hi bazhart , Thankx for contributing to the under 10k M96 Replacement engine thread. I have a copy of your technical paper on the main causes of failure on the M96. I very much enjoyed reading it and appreciate the time you have spent in preparing such a detailed study. I very much like your cylinder support ring process, and your new closed deck cylinders. I think anyone over there in the UK could use your services and come in under the 10k limit for an engine rebuild. Your prices are very reasonable. I do wish you were over here in the US..lol . I know you have an affiliate in Canada (Alpine), but there website really doesn't have much in terms of information for me to gather.

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Can't wait! Mike

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Is your engine not doing well after all the work you just had done on it? Something ailing it ? Are you going to build it yourself this time?

I thought I would post Hartech's rebuild prices here and do a "Pound to Dollar conversion" for people here in the US to compare prices. Shipping would be a big deterrent for most people in the US, but those over the pond won't have that issue. Seems these services could easily produce a DIY for under 10k. Some of the prices could use a little more clarification, but overall pretty straightforward. I noticed Hartech basic head service is $245, very close to the estimate I used ($250) in above DIY rebuild cost lists.. Porsche Boxster Engine Problem Costs/Porsche 911 Engine Problem Prices/Porsche Cayman Engine Fault Costs: No two re-builds are exactly the same, but as a starting point the common Porsche engine issues of this nature all require a re-build so we have a starting price for a basic 911 engine rebuild, Boxster engine rebuild, & Cayman engine rebuild; Base Engine Rebuild (Engine Only): �2300 + VAT ( $2930usd + $230) Comprising of: Strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage). Base Engine Rebuild (Car & Engine): �3600 + VAT ( $4586usd + $458.60) Comprising of: Remove engine & gearbox assembly, remove ancillaries and strip to long motor, strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage), strip & check induction system for debris, re-assemble induction system & fit to engine, re-fit all ancillaries, re-fit engine & gearbox assembly to car, get running with new Porsche approved oil, filter, coolant, power steering fluid, carry out air conditioning re-gas if needed & thoroughly road test (several journeys covering around 50 miles) & check over. A rolling road facility is currently being installed to offer an additional alternative test facility. This initial Porsche engine re-build price doesn't cover the cost of the internals needed to repair the damage such as the 997 scored cylinder or Boxster IMS bearing failure so additional costs are then applied to address the actual engine issue. We operate a flexible pricing system and we're happy to discuss common scenarios but the table below covers typical areas: O ption a) 1 x New Cylinder : �600 + VAT ( $764usd + $76.40) Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinder with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine. Option b) 2 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): �1100 + VAT ( $1401.40usd + $140.14) Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine. Option c) 3 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): �1400 + VAT ($1783.60usd + $178.36) Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine. Option d) 6 x New Cylinders: �2500 + VAT ( $3185usd + $318) Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikiski plating fitted to a stripped engine. New Latest Design Porsche Intermediate Shaft: From �800 + VAT ( $1019.20usd + $101.92) New Intermediate Shaft Bearing & Stronger Spindle: �150 + VAT ($191.10usd + $19.11) Fitted to intermediate shaft from stripped engine. New Crank Shaft Bearing Set: From �125 + VAT ( $159.25usd + $15.93) New Timing Chain Set: From �280 + VAT ( $356.72usd + $35.67) New Piston: From �210 + VAT ($267.54usd + $26.74) Strengthen/Re-Round Existing Cylinder: �100 + VAT ( $127.40usd + $12.70) Re-round cylinder (as far as possible) and fit closed deck strengthening section. (New Nikiski plated cylinders already have this feature). Basic Cylinder Head Overhaul: �175 + VAT ($222.95usd + $22.30)

Hartech do have a vendor in Canada ( Alpine Autowerks in Calgary) that use their system, just so people are aware. Not sure on Canadian pricing, but shipping would be different.

They have great pricing in the UK, and I don't know why that is. Same for Ferrari servicing as well. They must all work for $50 an hour. In the Bay area, you cannot machine two heads for a mere $250. Mechanics at Carlsen Porsche charge $245 per hour for their work.

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It's such a big difference, if I needed a rebuild it seems like almost worth comparing those prices even with the cost of overseas shipping, VAT, etc.

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Porschetech are those current prices? I was planning on making a post later today regarding Hartech, they are unique one of a kind company.

bpoteat-I explored the option to send engine to Hartech. �Difficult� is mildly understating. Unless you�re versed in shipping pallets by boat to EU, customs on both sides, etc; daunting and expensive. I contacted three different companies and best rates were approximately $1,000 each way, minus taxes and customs fees. Shipping the car to Calgary would be much cheaper. It has been my experience that anyone and everyone who deals with Baz and his people at Hartech are never disappointed. I�ve called to ask questions or get data and someone is always available, in short order, to get with me. The reams of research Hartech has done on the M96/97 system is an invaluable resource for adding to our personal knowledge bases. The hordes of owners on 911uk sing praises much like we do about Flat 6 Innovations.

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Everything is good with the engine repair. The engine performs and the car is driving fantastic! However, I'm definitely interested in learning more about building a M96 and perhaps in the future, I'll build my own for this car or another. Mike

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Yes, those prices are from their current website. I noticed a price increase in the cylinder support rings, used to 60gbp each, now it is 100gbp each. Good to hear !!

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Barry Hart designed and built engines from scratch for a living and his company is one of the top M96 rebuilders in the world, so information he provides is of the highest credibility. He wrote a long paper and the link is below pages 118 to 159 starting at "General Problems". Following is my summary of his paper as I understood it: Mr. Hart says it appears Porsche used the same molds for 3.2, 3.4 and 3.6 engines, and these had a new cylinder liner "Lokasil" a metal matrix composite cast into the block. The Lokasil takes up roughly half the cylinder wall thickness and is not as rigid as the supporting aluminum shell. 3.2 engines have thick enough aluminum outer support to retain dimensions as manufactured, but 3.4 and 3.6 having larger bores and the same size outer shell the aluminum wall was too thin allowing distortion to an oval shape. This happens in apparently every engine and severity depends on hours run and pressure in the cylinder (wide-open throttle, climbing hills, towing, etc). As the cylinder becomes an oval the Lokasil and its supporting aluminum crack. In every normally aspirated 996 engine When his paper was written in January of 2008 it was believed a cylinder not yet oval can be machined at the top and a metal ring fitted, and cylinders slightly oval can be rerounded with the metal ring then installed. That procedure for six cylinders is not too expensive, but of course the engine must be removed from the vehicle and disassembled. If too far oval or already cracked, the cylinder must be machined away and a new one installed plated with Nikasil. Expensive for one and prohibitive for all six. The good news is ovaling can be slow enough to get a normal service life out of the engine say 100k to 200k miles. https://www.hartech.org/images/downl...rs%20Guide.pdf

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There is no prep for ARP rod bolts just install them. I can ship you a set for $200.

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The rods should be checked for size, concentricity, and inspected for casting, forging or machine flaws, which should be deburred, but yes you can just slap parts together too. In some cases removing the old bolts can damage the rods too. These engines are now pretty high use and mileage, double check everything and take nothing for granted.

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Porschetech the below was posted by Barry Hart on another forum, does it lower the cost of a complete engine?

Curious, for home builds where the liner(s) is replaced by Hart, how does the warranty work? Even if they do the bottom end, how would they warranty the resulting job?

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There is no prep required to install ARP rod bolts, they install just like stock bolts and are a major upgrade over OEM bolts.

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Go read any legitimate book on engine rebuilding and report back. I bet you think every car modification is a �bolt on� too. Or we can just agree I wouldn�t want you working on any of my cars.

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Well they seem to be working fine in my engine I rebuilt 10 yrs. ago with 65,000 miles since then. My 2000 Boxster can outrun your 996.

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He is correct. You cannot resize the stock rods. And yes, we have been replacing the stock Porsche rods bolts with ARPs for well over a decade. If you measure the housing bore with the stock rod bolts torqued vs ARPs, they measure exactly the same. A book won't tell you that.

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I'm not sure I understand your question. Looks like Hartech can do an engine overhaul for 8kgbp (10.5usd) including new cylinders, turn key. Very good value IMHO

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Come in Charles, you know that a good rebuild guide will tell you to measure the bores and check for concentricity. Sure YOU CAN skip this step, but why would you? Do you assume that all factory rods are good to go no need to check? On a $10k plus rebuild? There are mechanics in the world and parts changers..... I�ve never assembled any plain bearing without taking measurements.... engines, refrigeration units, steam turbines.... Yes you can skip steps, and maybe you get lucky. Maybe you get a rod thrown out the side of the block. Either way the assumption you can just reuse the rods, change the bolts and not check anything can lead to a short lived engine.

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Whilst ' reading ' involves translating text into sounds or spoken words, ' comprehension ' involves deriving meaning from those words. Both reading skills and comprehension skills are essential if a child is to be able to understand a text, but the reading must come first.

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Nowhere did I say you can get away with not measuring the parts. That's a given. My post was to say you can change to ARP bolts without resizing the rods, which goes against common knowledge. But if the rods are bad, they are bad and need to be replaced.

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I can't speak for Hartech, but being in the business for more than 4 decades , I can speak to warranties in general. Parts or labor warranties are for material and craftsmanship only. It can get very complicated if the primary cause of failure is hard to determine. For example; if a $10 warranteed part inside an engine that has failed, the chain reaction and collateral damage would sometimes make it hard to determine what actually started the chain-reaction, and the warranty would be limited to the $10 dollar part anyway and not the collateral damage. But in the case of a complete short block or bottom end overhaul, it may be easier to determine the cause of failure. It could be due to overheating, low on oil, over-reving (which would not be covered) or due to a covered part (like an IMSB). that would be covered. In the case of a Porsche shortblock, if installed by a non-Porsche authorized service center, any concerns must be inspected by an authorized Porsche Center before any repair attempts are made, then shortblock replaced for labor only for 2 years unlimited miles. If installed by authorized Porsche Center, parts and labor both are covered for 2 years unlimited miles. If an authorized Porsche Center "rebuilt" an engine using all Genuine Porsche Parts, it also would be covered by warranty for 2 years unlimited mileage, but if a failure were to happen ,whether the dealer or Porsche was responsible for the warranty would be between them. If determined that a Porsche part failed, Porsche would pay all parts and the dealers labor, if determined the Porsche Tech was at fault, the Dealer would have to eat it, if undetermined, the Dealer would eat labor, and Porsche would supply the parts. As far as warranties from other shops or companies, it can vary greatly. In my state (Alabama) a shop doesn't "have" to warrant any labor, but they normally do. (if not posted or in writing on the the receipt, then it would be at their discretion to protect their reputation) Parts suppliers do have to supply a consumer limited warranty..So, if you are concerned with warranty, you should check with the place you're dealing with.

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996-100-951-TX current price now ranges from 8195.00 to 8395.00 apparently they adjusted the market price.

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Wow, that's quite a bump in price!

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I agree, especially since it only been a few months.

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Looks like the 3.4 and the 3.6 short block both have had a price jump !! That put the 3.4 at just under 10k for a DIY, and the 3.6 at over the 10k DIY price point !! They must be getting in short supply, I have had Auto Atlanta backorder my hoses for the UAOS twice in the last month or so. They are late right now on an order for the UAOS, I am fixing to call them and complain..

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I love Auto Atlanta for their diagrams/parts breakdowns... everything else? Not so much...

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Right, Their parts look-up is great for user friendly and getting the correct part number, and their prices are good , but they list stuff that they don't have in stock, and don't notify you when they are drop shipping or have backordered something..

Have you checked napa for the hoses.. ?? I've found they carry some continental stuff and others, but its hard ot get them to look it up, you need the stock # .. some of the stuff I've bought from them that's for a VW or 911, had a OEM box in side the napa box. YMMV

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NAPA? All I have to go on is the factory part number, that's what all the suppliers go off of or reference to, and when I Google it, NAPA never shows up as a source. I have been working on getting the special quick connectors for 3 weeks from Norma, don't now if it will happen or not without buying 1000 at a time. If I can get the connectors, I have a way to make the hoses out of 3/4 .035 wall aluminum tubing. I have a very nice two handle hand tubing bender and some sticks of tubing and other supporting hardware if can get the connectors..I may run out of factory hoses, I don't know how many there are in North Amercia. When I was working at Porsche, it was very common for the parts guy to tell me how many of a part was in the country, sometimes it was none, or just a few....lol.. never was there hundreds of anything except maybe park plugs...lol

I've usually had to go old school and make them drag the paper catalogs out.. But I do have a major wharehouse near where I live.. i don't get lucky every time but enough to make it worth it for some bits now and again.

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These hoses are molded plastic PA12, they fit nothing but a Porsche m96..lol

Oh I thought it was the soft hoses he was waiting on not the plastic. Did not read carefully enough..

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can you share your cylinder head contact? sounds like he's got the right experience and work ethic to do the job properly...

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Johnny Darabarus, the owner of Cylinder Head Service in Fairfield AL. They do thousands of heads a month. If you looking for port work or more HP go with Len at Hamheads. But if you just want a clean ,well executed, standard head overhaul/ valve job, Johnny is my man..

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awesome..... if we send him the heads will he know if the valves need to be replaced? We are in the process of removing my heads - what does head service for the 996 3.4 usually include and what should we replace on those heads while we have them off... these heads have just over 65,000 miles on them with lots of track time... don't want to miss anything

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Yes, he will know what to do, he has done nothing but heads for 4 decades..( although only a dozen m96 that I have taken to him, all were cracked). Since your engine exploded, your heads may not be repairable, if you need heads hit me up. I have a good used set I can get him to rebuild and send to you..

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10-4 GB!

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You sir, deserve a medal. A true gentleman and amazing asset to this forum.

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Thanks for the kind words my man, just trying to help a brother out while cleaning out the horded Porsche parts I have stored up. Saving my kids from having to deal with it when I'm gone, lol, I'll just leave them a check..

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Privet Jon- I know, old thread, but I read these threads start to finish (UAOS, UIDS, etc) to learn things. I had Pshop air-cooled in Reno ~35 years ago....sigh. Quit, moved to less crowds (LESS CA influence), and lower cost. Reno is not that far, sort of like downhill from here. I looked at website, could not find list for 3.6 engine parts list. Now I have 2004 C4S m03/Tiptronic, new to me. I like the headlights and shape - anybody can have round or oval headlights, and back end is gorgeous... Very interested in your company, parts, and service. PM message or post here. TIA for reply YMMV

Yes this thread is 4 years old....Probably will not be able to DIY a nice Replacement Engine for under $10K anymore... Someone should re-do the Parts List with current prices for those with the skillz to DIY their own Engine...

Good thread to bump.

RND has the deluxe rebuild kit for $10,000.

I wish I had the technical talent but I don’t so does anyone know if a factory motor is available or a stock rebuilder for under $20k

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Who is RND? Link? 3.6? maybe 3.6 > 4.0? and 2nd curious: EVOMMM question: so does anyone know if a factory motor is available or a stock rebuilder for under $20k?

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RND is a part of LN Engineering. If you go to the LN website and search by brand, you'll find everything they offer.

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I just happened to have the part number for the 3.8 shortblock as I recently checked pricing and availability, and they are going retail for about $19k: https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...ne-997100997tx Here's a breakdown of labor, as estimated by ChatGPT: This doesn't include rebuilding the heads ($2000) and any other parts you'll need to complete the longblock, such as lifters ($2300), among quite a few other bits that should be replaced. Shortblock also doesn't include a flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, and bolts ($1600), which all add significant cost, and every engine will need these. That is also assuming that you also don't need to replace anything when dressing the engine, or any other components on the car, that often need replacing due to age. Labor rates vary greatly, but I don't think I've seen a labor rate less than $165/hr and have seen several work orders showing over $300/hr in So Cal for engine rebuilds when people send in their documentation for registering their IMS bearing. Regularly I see invoices for independent shops doing rebuilds, all in, in excess of $40k and higher for a rebuild done at a dealership with a factory shortblock.